Re: Mild 360...stock oil pan?
[Re: cudadoug]
#2418349
12/14/17 04:51 AM
12/14/17 04:51 AM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,163 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,163
Bend,OR USA
|
The stock OEM Mopar windage trays rob power from the motors they don't help according to all the NHRA stock class racers on the west coast (they remove them and don't use them) A crankshaft scraper will help HP and help oil return into the stock oil pan with baffles, is your pan baffled front and rear or not? Adding oil capacity would be very helpful to your motor, 4 quarts can be marginal for drag racing in the 1/4 mile What year and body style is your car?
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: Mild 360...stock oil pan?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2418379
12/14/17 10:32 AM
12/14/17 10:32 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,894 Florida
Locomotion
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,894
Florida
|
X2 I've used crank scrapers in my bracket cars, Dart IHRA Stocker with an 8 qt. Milodon pan (with 5 qts.) and have one in my NHRA Aspen Stocker with an OEM style baffled Milodon pan. I haven't been able to do any back-to-back comparisons, but from everything I've heard, read and just visualizing how everything works, a scraper helps. They usually need some fitting to the counterweights & rods. Extra care is needed to make sure the front and rear pan rails seal because the scrapers are usually sandwiched between the block & pan rails. That drops the pan a bit. But I just add extra silicone on the outside, especially at the front & rear seals. Oil pan studs make things a bit more convenient, with or without a scraper. I use a stock volume and pressure oil pump as well. Ishihara-Johnson Crank Scrapers
|
|
|
Re: Mild 360...stock oil pan?
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2418547
12/14/17 04:57 PM
12/14/17 04:57 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 200 midwest
superchuck
On thin ice
|
On thin ice
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 200
midwest
|
The stock OEM Mopar windage trays rob power from the motors they don't help according to all the NHRA stock class racers on the west coast (they remove them and don't use them) What's your theory behind it? Just curious as I'm in the same boat.
|
|
|
Re: Mild 360...stock oil pan?
[Re: cudadoug]
#2418738
12/14/17 10:59 PM
12/14/17 10:59 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,255 Columbus, GA
Michael Ecks
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,255
Columbus, GA
|
If I recall the stock windage tray was designed for the 340 and helped it out some. Using the same tray under the 360 with its longer arm throws is too tight resulting in the "oil cloud" being trapped around the rotating mass. That is my understanding anyway, hopefully some more knowledgable racers will chime in.
Some book I read way back had an suggested windage tray to rotating mass clearance and the stock 360 setup is no where close. The milodon tray is made to use with aftermarket studs made for their windage trays (milodon or ARP have them) which allow you to adjust the height of the tray using a nut abive and below where you want to set the tray. May want to look into that setup if you want to have one in your engine. The Milodon tray doesn't cover the front two rods since most stock oil pans don't have enough clearance there for a lower tray.
"The happiness of your life depends upon the quality of your thoughts" ~ Roman Emperor Marcus Aurelius
|
|
|
Re: Mild 360...stock oil pan?
[Re: cudadoug]
#2418900
12/15/17 10:12 AM
12/15/17 10:12 AM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,025 Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,025
Tulsa OK
|
I put lots of passes on a 400HP 340 with a stock pan. It did fine until I put slicks and a converter in it, then it didn't have good oil pressure for the first 30ft or so. It never went to zero but it dipped then recovered about the 60ft. When I tore it down all the bearings were copper. I put a Milodon 7qt pan on and it fixed that issue. A friend of mine had a similar combo that did not heed my advice and he spun a rod bearing.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
|
|
|
Re: Mild 360...stock oil pan?
[Re: superchuck]
#2418949
12/15/17 01:04 PM
12/15/17 01:04 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
|
Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
|
My 360 has a stock crank and rods with flat top pistons. stock oil pan and I put a 340 windage tray in it. I run low 11's with it and my bearings look fine. If I can squeeze an ounce of more power out of it I will. I was always under the impression the the windage tray prevented oil sloshing back to a certain degree on hard launches. If I can get more power by tossing it into the garbage then I will. I just want a good reason why I should throw it away. I couldn't of said it better myself & I am in the same boat. Tho I dont know if my WT is a 340 one or not (I thought the OE ones were the same?).
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
|
|
|
Re: Mild 360...stock oil pan?
[Re: superchuck]
#2419070
12/15/17 04:09 PM
12/15/17 04:09 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,163 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
|
I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,163
Bend,OR USA
|
All the NHRA stock and SS SB (318,340 and 360) racer I know, record holders in multiple classes, ran faster in the 1/4 mile without the stock windage trays They don't leave the front and rear of the sump stock either If yours is that way now you need to add (fabricate and weld in) baffles in front and the rear around the pickup to help keep the oil in the sump I am surprised how many racers and engine builders won't take the action needed to fix some of the simple problems like this One of the racers I use to help had a very high dollar all out class race motor build by one of the "better" mid west engine builder that had a stock unmodified oil pan on the motor and raced it for several years before begging me to help them again, I was helping another racer in the same class had had set the record in E/SA that was never exceeded, NHRA put that class record back to a NHRA minimum after two years on his record. I had helped that couple many years before on another car but they had quit and came back. The owner had always wanted to go as cheap as possible, cut every corner until they came back and bought that good motor. I told them that the only way I would help them on a new motor was if they bought all new parts and let me build it the proper way and dyno test it, which they did After refreshing their original motor and adding both baffles into the stock pan the driver commented after the first pass in the car with the freshen motor was what did you freaking do to my motor She had drove the car to a new best ET and MPH on that first run She said it had never pulled like it did in high gear before that and the low pressure oil light didn't come on after letting off in high gear Never stop making things better
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 12/15/17 04:13 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
|
|
|
Re: Mild 360...stock oil pan?
[Re: superchuck]
#2419083
12/15/17 04:32 PM
12/15/17 04:32 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,025 Tulsa OK
Bad340fish
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,025
Tulsa OK
|
My 360 has a stock crank and rods with flat top pistons. stock oil pan and I put a 340 windage tray in it. I run low 11's with it and my bearings look fine. If I can squeeze an ounce of more power out of it I will. I was always under the impression the the windage tray prevented oil sloshing back to a certain degree on hard launches. If I can get more power by tossing it into the garbage then I will. I just want a good reason why I should throw it away. After my 340 I ran a junk 360 shortblock with nitrous and a stock oil pan. I don't recall if it had the oil pressure issue at launch or not, but with that engine I just didn't care so I probably didn't look at the oil pressure gauge until I got back to the pits lol.
68 Barracuda Formula S 340
|
|
|
Re: Mild 360...stock oil pan?
[Re: cudadoug]
#2419084
12/15/17 04:32 PM
12/15/17 04:32 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,765 A collage of whims
topside
Too Many Posts
|
Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 20,765
A collage of whims
|
The idea with a windage tray is to prevent the rotating assembly from picking up the oil in the pan. A spinning assy works like a suction pump in the block, as Smokey Yunick proved decades ago: it pulls the oil up and creates a "rope" around the crank & rods. Scrapers serve to break up the suction, as well as stripping the spinning oil from the assy. Even just a deeper pan helps, as it can be used to keep the oil further from the crank. Drainback on sheet-metal trays can be assisted by directional louvers or using a mesh; the stock stuff is lacking in that regard. Obviously, ensuring the pickup is ALWAYS submerged in oil is vital. I've even seen the benefits of adding a deep pan & tray on a car hauler, where it improved the life of the big-inch, relatively slow-turning (rarely over 3000 RPM) engine. Add in higher RPM, launches, and hard braking that the truck didn't see...
|
|
|
Re: Mild 360...stock oil pan?
[Re: cudaman1969]
#2419142
12/15/17 07:32 PM
12/15/17 07:32 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
|
Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
|
If you have a stock MP tray you need to bend open the louvers so they drain back better.. some of those trays were damn near closed off.. for years I have been running the tray and I weld in baffles in both the front and rear to help slow the oil and keep in in the sump.. if you run a stock pan you HAVE to run at least the baffles.. now days I run a BIG pan(home made) and baffles and trap doors in the pan
|
|
|
|
|