Re: Hotchkis 19367 Torsion bars?
[Re: stinger]
#2354425
08/15/17 07:42 PM
08/15/17 07:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,443 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,443
NW Chicago suburban area
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Stinger -- I think Hotchkis made some typo error about their bars.. its been out there for a long time... 1.03... 1.10.
Don't be afraid of larger TBs...the factory TBs were very weak... made to attract the mass population with a fairly soft ride.
Depending on what your purposes are (occasional daily driver... vs. competition usage.. AX/HSAX, etc) any thing larger than factory stock (0.89-0.92) will be noticably better for handling.
The TBs help control lift and dive. The more serious and aggressive you'd be driving, the greater the lift/dive.. as well as lean side/side.
The FF 1.12 TBs are an excellent daily driver TB that'll also be moderate for occasional AX/HSAX/HPDE track days. IF you have a SB, 1.12 are very good; BB.. consider nothing less than 1.12.
FF's 1.18 will amaze you... so much that you'll only wonder why you didn't go that size in the first place. My 1.24 TBs are very stiff, but still drivable on the street/hwy... excellent for AX/HSAX/HPDE events. Ride harshness can be controlled by shocks (consider adjustables.. Viking/QA1, etc), along with tire sidewall profile (30-35-40-45 progress stiffly ... 30-35 stiffest; 50-60 softer); tire air pressures contribute as well.
After you get used to driving the 1.18s, you'll ask why you didn't go stiffer yet.... pending your intentions.
When stiffening the front, consider a some additional stiffness in the rear. It may take time, pending your intent with the car, to conclude and be satisfied.
FF will make larger TBs beyond their 1.18 stock-shelf TBs... just ask them. The 1.24 is the limit due to the hex size being 1.25.
Last edited by Mopar Mitch; 08/15/17 07:46 PM.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Hotchkis 19367 Torsion bars?
[Re: stinger]
#2354581
08/16/17 12:56 AM
08/16/17 12:56 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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I have 1.15" bars in my 70 Charger along with Bilstein shocks. I have a 440/493 with aluminum heads, radiator, intake battery in trunk...I love the way the car feels with these bars. I had 1.0" bars and KYB shocks from 2002 to 2015 and the current setup feels so much better! Smoother ride while also being a better handling car.
Last edited by Frankenduster; 08/16/17 12:56 AM.
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Re: Hotchkis 19367 Torsion bars?
[Re: stinger]
#2356129
08/18/17 04:35 PM
08/18/17 04:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,443 NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,443
NW Chicago suburban area
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Too many people think that a TB such as ~1.12, 1.15, 1.18... 1.2, 1.22, 1.24 are really stiff. From my experience, and I've tried progressively larger TBs in my past while developing my Challenger (for serious E/SP SCCA competition), sure, they get stiffer. But even at the 1.20 and up range, their not SO stiff that they'd be unbearable to drive on the street/hwy, etc. SMOOTH roads and surfaces (not constant bumpy streets, etc), are not so rough at all. Typical AX/HSAX/HPDE roads/surfaces are SMOOTH, therefore, they can easily justify stiff TBs. But, IF you're concerned for road gripping on progressively bumpy roads/surfaces, then use softer TBs.
If my info is correct, the actual SCCA Posey and Gurney Trans Am cars use ~1.4" diameter TBs (using ~C-body hexes). I've seen those cars run on road courses... the fronts re pretty flat from lift/dive/lean and then... the rear leaf are extremely stiff (don't know their rates)... but have multiple leafs... like truck springs... and flattened.
I emphasize the advantage of stiffer TBs to reduce lift/dive and lean. Fine tuning the "ride" can be done with shocks (ultimately, consider the latest generations of adjustable shocks... Viking, QA1.. double adjustables, along with tire PSI, and considering tire sidewall height.... rubber band tires, such as 30-35-40 profiles, have progressively little sidewall cushioning, giving a more harsh ride.
If you can avoid bumpy roads/streets, pot holes, etc, regardless of your suspension setup, try to avoid them... no fun for "handling"... unless you drive an off-road setup truck.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Hotchkis 19367 Torsion bars?
[Re: stinger]
#2359525
08/25/17 10:35 AM
08/25/17 10:35 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889 up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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A tighter chassis will benefit any ratio spring.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.
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Re: Hotchkis 19367 Torsion bars?
[Re: 68rrunner]
#2359960
08/25/17 11:55 PM
08/25/17 11:55 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493 Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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In my opinion, any torsion bar over an inch begins to transfer significant flex to the chassis as the suspension becomes less compliant. I don't have specific data to confirm this, but road feel over several vehicles using various bars. I agree with this although I have no actual science to back it up. For me, common sense tells me that the Mopar unibody structure and suspension was all engineered around shared compliance. Looking at it this way, the frame structure was designed to support the suspension and spring rates as designed. Once individual components are UPsized, the structure will start to flex more. Imagine everything stock except with wider, stickier tires. Now the car does corner a little better but the body leans/rolls more because the tires are gripping but the torsion bars and sway bar are more stressed. Now upgrade to larger torsion bars, sway bars and shocks. The car corners even better but it sometimes feels a little unstable on uneven surfaces. This could be because the unibody structure has now become stressed because the suspension is far stiffer than before.
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Re: Hotchkis 19367 Torsion bars?
[Re: Kern Dog]
#2360040
08/26/17 06:57 AM
08/26/17 06:57 AM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,432 NorCal
RylisPro
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,432
NorCal
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Because of the obstructions ? Yes exactly! I am 5'5" & 145 lbs. and I have to climb over my X bars in the door to get into my seat. I run a fixed halo style seat as it offers the strongest seating position in case of a crash as slider type seat rails may fail upon impact. The halo seat protects your head from bouncing around and hitting a bar but also blocks the rear view even more than usual in an Ebody. I also had to install a removable steering wheel to help get in and out. Yeah having a roll cage is a pain in the @$$, but it is all worth it when you are at the track.
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Re: Hotchkis 19367 Torsion bars?
[Re: stinger]
#2360278
08/26/17 07:37 PM
08/26/17 07:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,405 Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,405
Pikes Peak Country
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A tighter chassis will benefit any ratio spring.
As well as minimizing squeaks and rattles. They also help maintain consistent panel gaps too. Not sure why anyone not doing concourse judging of their car WOULDN'T use em. The halo seat protects your head from bouncing around and hitting a bar but also blocks the rear view even more than usual in an Ebody. I also had to install a removable steering wheel to help get in and out.
This points out the issues I think some users of street cages overlook, keeping your melon off the roll cage in an accident. The reduction in room a full cage street car presents can make a difference in life or death, even if belted in, in an accident.
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Re: Hotchkis 19367 Torsion bars?
[Re: RylisPro]
#2360991
08/28/17 03:02 AM
08/28/17 03:02 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,310 Walnut Creek, CA
blown340
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,310
Walnut Creek, CA
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Because of the obstructions ? Yes exactly! I am 5'5" & 145 lbs. and I have to climb over my X bars in the door to get into my seat. I run a fixed halo style seat as it offers the strongest seating position in case of a crash as slider type seat rails may fail upon impact. The halo seat protects your head from bouncing around and hitting a bar but also blocks the rear view even more than usual in an Ebody. I also had to install a removable steering wheel to help get in and out. Yeah having a roll cage is a pain in the @$$, but it is all worth it when you are at the track. I'm 6'1" and larger and my lemons race car is a 63 valiant sedan with a full cage and a halo seat. Watching me get in and out is pretty hilarious! I drove it from Walnut Creek to Benicia today and even with a wink mirror the visibility is awful. Cages are awesome for safety but they do make life difficult when on the street. Some pics of our clown car -sweat-palooza-winners/]here..... -Jon
70 challenger convertible. 340/5 speed. blown, intercooled, efi, blah blah blah
71 valiant scamp 318/A833OD/AC/PS
00 dakota RC 4.7L 5 spd autoX'r. SRT10/T56 swap in process
73 W200 Power wagon, PTO winch, 4 spd
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