I've been looking at all the different torsion bars on the market and sorry if this is a novice question but Why is it that the 19367 bars are described as 1.03" and 1.10 diameter?

Forget about the Hotchkis 19367 bars and just get Firm Feel t-bars. I run the 1.12's with the entire Hotchkis kit.

Even better, ask Mopar Mitch as he runs 1.24's
http://www.firmfeel.com/e_body_mopar_torsion_bars.html

Stinger -- I think Hotchkis made some typo error about their bars.. its been out there for a long time... 1.03... 1.10.

Don't be afraid of larger TBs...the factory TBs were very weak... made to attract the mass population with a fairly soft ride.

Depending on what your purposes are (occasional daily driver... vs. competition usage.. AX/HSAX, etc) any thing larger than factory stock (0.89-0.92) will be noticably better for handling.

The TBs help control lift and dive. The more serious and aggressive you'd be driving, the greater the lift/dive.. as well as lean side/side.

The FF 1.12 TBs are an excellent daily driver TB that'll also be moderate for occasional AX/HSAX/HPDE track days. IF you have a SB, 1.12 are very good; BB.. consider nothing less than 1.12.

FF's 1.18 will amaze you... so much that you'll only wonder why you didn't go that size in the first place. My 1.24 TBs are very stiff, but still drivable on the street/hwy... excellent for AX/HSAX/HPDE events. Ride harshness can be controlled by shocks (consider adjustables.. Viking/QA1, etc), along with tire sidewall profile (30-35-40-45 progress stiffly ... 30-35 stiffest; 50-60 softer); tire air pressures contribute as well.

After you get used to driving the 1.18s, you'll ask why you didn't go stiffer yet.... pending your intentions.

When stiffening the front, consider a some additional stiffness in the rear. It may take time, pending your intent with the car, to conclude and be satisfied.

FF will make larger TBs beyond their 1.18 stock-shelf TBs... just ask them. The 1.24 is the limit due to the hex size being 1.25.

Thanks Mitch,
My car is a 440/727 street car with what you guys would call a bunch of miss matched parts.not a track car but so far I have been happy with it and as time and funds are available I keep adding to it.

it has just suspensions tubular upper control arms,boxed lowers,poly graphite bushings,addco 1 1/8"hollow sway bar,ss springs with 2" billet lowering blocks moved 1.5" inside with a 3:91 gear. 245/45r 17 cooper rs3a's up front and 275/40 r17's out back on American racing wheels. frame connecters and Hotchkis 1.5 street shocks. Kind of why I was considering the Hotchkis T Bar's as I would think they would match up well and I still want some weight transfer on hard acceleration. I currently have the stock 777/778 bar's in the car but that makes me nervous.

I have 1.15" bars in my 70 Charger along with Bilstein shocks. I have a 440/493 with aluminum heads, radiator, intake battery in trunk...I love the way the car feels with these bars. I had 1.0" bars and KYB shocks from 2002 to 2015 and the current setup feels so much better! Smoother ride while also being a better handling car.

Yep, I had 1.06" T-bars on my Dart and tried Autocrossing and Road Racing and there was definitely a lot of leaning where I was machining tires. That's with my sway bars and shocks set to full-stiff. I'll be adding helper springs to the back of my Dart too.

As for T-bars, Hotchkis stopped making them so unless someone has them in stock, new ones aren't being made. I'd go for Firm Feel T-bars. With your shocks, you have enough damping for the larger T-bars.

Hotchkis is looking into a new solution for Torsion bars as well as some new bits. Hopefully we will have working prototypes by SEMA on a few of the cars.

I think Peter had some bars on clearance and Firm Feel is always great to work with. (I've got a box going out to them next week)

That said; I used to run the 1.18's before we produced the 1.10's, but didn't enjoy them much on the street. For a competition only vehicle in autoX I wouldn't think twice about the 1.18's and in a road racer 1.18's or 1.24's for sure, and a significant bump in rear spring as well.

Too many people think that a TB such as ~1.12, 1.15, 1.18... 1.2, 1.22, 1.24 are really stiff. From my experience, and I've tried progressively larger TBs in my past while developing my Challenger (for serious E/SP SCCA competition), sure, they get stiffer. But even at the 1.20 and up range, their not SO stiff that they'd be unbearable to drive on the street/hwy, etc. SMOOTH roads and surfaces (not constant bumpy streets, etc), are not so rough at all. Typical AX/HSAX/HPDE roads/surfaces are SMOOTH, therefore, they can easily justify stiff TBs. But, IF you're concerned for road gripping on progressively bumpy roads/surfaces, then use softer TBs.

If my info is correct, the actual SCCA Posey and Gurney Trans Am cars use ~1.4" diameter TBs (using ~C-body hexes). I've seen those cars run on road courses... the fronts re pretty flat from lift/dive/lean and then... the rear leaf are extremely stiff (don't know their rates)... but have multiple leafs... like truck springs... and flattened.

I emphasize the advantage of stiffer TBs to reduce lift/dive and lean. Fine tuning the "ride" can be done with shocks (ultimately, consider the latest generations of adjustable shocks... Viking, QA1.. double adjustables, along with tire PSI, and considering tire sidewall height.... rubber band tires, such as 30-35-40 profiles, have progressively little sidewall cushioning, giving a more harsh ride.

If you can avoid bumpy roads/streets, pot holes, etc, regardless of your suspension setup, try to avoid them... no fun for "handling"... unless you drive an off-road setup truck.

Would you guys consider chassis bracing a prerequisite to stiffer torsion bars? It seems like the loss of "give" in the suspension could be transferred to the structure of the car.

Obviously, both are important, just trying to get a sense for the order in which these things should be done.

A tighter chassis will benefit any ratio spring.

In my opinion, any torsion bar over an inch begins to transfer significant flex to the chassis as the suspension becomes less compliant. I don't have specific data to confirm this, but road feel over several vehicles using various bars.

I agree with this although I have no actual science to back it up.
For me, common sense tells me that the Mopar unibody structure and suspension was all engineered around shared compliance. Looking at it this way, the frame structure was designed to support the suspension and spring rates as designed. Once individual components are UPsized, the structure will start to flex more. Imagine everything stock except with wider, stickier tires. Now the car does corner a little better but the body leans/rolls more because the tires are gripping but the torsion bars and sway bar are more stressed. Now upgrade to larger torsion bars, sway bars and shocks. The car corners even better but it sometimes feels a little unstable on uneven surfaces. This could be because the unibody structure has now become stressed because the suspension is far stiffer than before.

Roll cage solves that problem but presents other issues. Any caged car will be more difficult to drive on the street.

Because of the obstructions ?

Yes exactly!
I am 5'5" & 145 lbs. and I have to climb over my X bars in the door to get into my seat. I run a fixed halo style seat as it offers the strongest seating position in case of a crash as slider type seat rails may fail upon impact.

The halo seat protects your head from bouncing around and hitting a bar but also blocks the rear view even more than usual in an Ebody. I also had to install a removable steering wheel to help get in and out.

Yeah having a roll cage is a pain in the @$$, but it is all worth it when you are at the track.

As well as minimizing squeaks and rattles. They also help maintain consistent panel gaps too. Not sure why anyone not doing concourse judging of their car WOULDN'T use em.




This points out the issues I think some users of street cages overlook, keeping your melon off the roll cage in an accident. The reduction in room a full cage street car presents can make a difference in life or death, even if belted in, in an accident.

I'm 6'1" and larger and my lemons race car is a 63 valiant sedan with a full cage and a halo seat. Watching me get in and out is pretty hilarious! I drove it from Walnut Creek to Benicia today and even with a wink mirror the visibility is awful. Cages are awesome for safety but they do make life difficult when on the street.

Some pics of our clown car -sweat-palooza-winners/]here.....

-Jon