440 build
#2359465
08/25/17 02:30 AM
08/25/17 02:30 AM
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gss
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Hi Gang, my sons decided to get my '71 Charger running. It hasn't seen daylight in 25 years. They already got the engine out and the top end off. It looks pretty good inside but it always needed a lot of octane booster to run well so they are going to rebuild it to be a little more practical.
It is .030 with L2295 pistons, DC .509 cam, Stage IV heads, TM-7 intake, and headers. I ran an 800 Double Pumper but that is being used on another car so they may try a fresh Holley 950 3 bbl I have laying around.
Does anyone make a relatively light weight 440 piston?
The cam and lifters look great. Any reason not to reuse them? I would probably change the valve springs.
Does it make sense to recondition the rods with all the cheap aftermarket rods that are available today?
Thanks!
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Re: 440 build
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#2359999
08/26/17 01:34 AM
08/26/17 01:34 AM
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gss
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I'd use what you have, new rings.... different cam thou. something a tad more modern. maybe a new timing chain and roll... If the compression ratio was a little lower, I would do just that. Also those old forged pistons seemed to have lot of piston slap. I'd like it to be a little quieter. I am sure there are better cams but I loved this one. It was a torque monster right off idle and revved hard to well over 7000 RPM. It has an aluminum flywheel so it revved really fast. Thanks!
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Re: 440 build
[Re: gss]
#2360626
08/27/17 03:43 PM
08/27/17 03:43 PM
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gss
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The lifters appear to be in perfect condition. Any reason they shouldn't be reused after sitting 25 years? I haven't mic'd the cam yet but it looks great as well. When I last drove it, I thought the valves were floating a bit earlier and sitting without the rockers loosened doesn't help. So I want to check out the valve springs. Does anyone know what spring pressures I need with the old 509 cam? I noticed the inside of the engine - the lifter valley and under the valve covers is black. No sludge or anything, just black. The PCV valve looks fine. Is there anything else I should look for to explain this. This engine always ran really well, better than others with the 509 cam that I knew of. I changed the 20w50 VR1 every year with well under 1000 miles on it.
Last edited by gss; 08/27/17 03:48 PM.
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Re: 440 build
[Re: FastmOp]
#2360660
08/27/17 04:42 PM
08/27/17 04:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 4,680 Wichita
GY3
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Mahle pistons and Molnar 7.1" rods.
'63 Dodge 330 11.19 @ 121 mph Pump gas, n/a, through the mufflers on street tires with 3.54's. 3,600 lbs. 10.01 @ 133mph with a 250 shot of nitrous an a splash of race gas. 1.36 60 ft. 3,700 lbs.
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Re: 440 build
[Re: gss]
#2360679
08/27/17 05:27 PM
08/27/17 05:27 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,314 Prospect, PA
BSB67
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The lifters appear to be in perfect condition. Any reason they shouldn't be reused after sitting 25 years? I haven't mic'd the cam yet but it looks great as well.
Probably better than any lifters you could get today.
Last edited by BSB67; 08/27/17 05:28 PM.
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Re: 440 build
[Re: gss]
#2360697
08/27/17 06:15 PM
08/27/17 06:15 PM
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Joined: May 2003
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J_BODY
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It was a torque monster right off idle and revved hard to well over 7000 RPM. torque monsters don't need 7K rpm to get it done.
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Re: 440 build
[Re: gss]
#2360800
08/27/17 09:11 PM
08/27/17 09:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,193 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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On your deal reusing the old cam and lifters already broke in with new valve springs I would look for 140 to 170 lbs. on the seats and from 325 to 375 lbs. at max lift As far as the black coating did you use ARP assembly lube and black cam lube on the motor? If so that may be where your black coating colors are coming from still That stuff is a bear to get flushed out of the motor, especially if it is a street car that doesn't go on long trips over two hundred miles at a time
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 08/27/17 09:13 PM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 440 build
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2361529
08/29/17 02:11 AM
08/29/17 02:11 AM
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gss
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On your deal reusing the old cam and lifters already broke in with new valve springs I would look for 140 to 170 lbs. on the seats and from 325 to 375 lbs. at max lift As far as the black coating did you use ARP assembly lube and black cam lube on the motor? If so that may be where your black coating colors are coming from still That stuff is a bear to get flushed out of the motor, especially if it is a street car that doesn't go on long trips over two hundred miles at a time I didn't do the initial build so I am not sure what was used. Thank you for the spring info.
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Re: 440 build
[Re: AndyF]
#2361536
08/29/17 02:27 AM
08/29/17 02:27 AM
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gss
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It all depends on the budget of course but if the money is available I'd buy aluminum heads for that engine. The modern chamber design in the aluminum heads will allow you to run pump gas and you'll lose a bunch of weight off the nose of the car.
You should be able to sell those Stage IV heads for a decent amount which will offset some of the cost of the aluminum heads. Well the budget is that of a 16yo and 13yo whose income comes from mowing the lawn so different heads are probably not high on the list. This is primarily a learning experience for them. That brings up another question though. The last pair of heads (906 heads)I sent to the machine shop came back with cracks in the valve guide towers. They claimed that was normal and not a problem. Another machine shop told me the same thing. I don't agree. I think this would cause oil to be sucked through into the valve guide. These are experienced shops that build a lot of engines. Is it unreasonable to expect my heads to come back with no cracks?
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Re: 440 build
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#2369980
09/13/17 12:33 PM
09/13/17 12:33 PM
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gss
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Well the cam is perfect.... except one tiny scratch on a lobe. I think it was running this way. Its right on the closing flank so maybe it survived. Regardless, I think I need to replace it Any suggestions for a cam that performs as good or better than the old .509 Purple Shaft? Pump gas friendly. Offset grind on the crank is $425. Looks like aftermarket rods are going to be $500 whether they are are stock stroke or 3.91. Pistons are going to be around $500 too. Are those typical figures? Thanks
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Re: 440 build
[Re: dynamite]
#2370028
09/13/17 01:31 PM
09/13/17 01:31 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
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MR_P_BODY
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The price for turning the crank is a bit on the pricey side but when you figure the price of the cheaper rods and pistons(chevy) it will be close to a wash.. a stroker crank kit might be right as of now.. that would take care of the bottom end..then look at the heads and cam.. heads would be my next step.. just start on the basic block stuff.. if you look around you can buy a lot of the stuff at reasonable prices when on sale... none of this stuff is cheap on a high school kids income but when its done he will have a nice piece.. have fun with the kid while you can
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Re: 440 build
[Re: gss]
#2370198
09/13/17 05:17 PM
09/13/17 05:17 PM
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dogdays
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I would much prefer starting with a used cam and lifter set which wore into each other in the same engine they're going back to. You said you liked the cam back in the day. Yes there are many more modern cams with faster lifter acceleration giving more area under the flow curve BUT the money wasted on a new cam could be put to better use, while eliminating a potential problem breaking in the new cam.
If you search for my handle and .509, you will see that I don't think this cam is all that wonderful. But it can be changed any time. It's a lot easier to swap cams than it is to pull an engine out of the car and clean every oil passage So keeping the current cam is a no-brainer for me.
I agree that the valve guides won't leak around the guides. I have seen similar cracking on heads that were rebuilt. IF you must use stock heads, scout around for a pair of 452 heads, even 213 heads. These are later heads with induction hardened valve seat areas. None of the 440 heads flow sufficient air for a 440 or larger high output engine. There is very little magic in 906s. They came on every bigblock, even the two barrel ones.
I think you're on the right track. Stock crank, stock rods, newer lighter pistons. Stock type heads. Don't pay much for the head cores, they have value decreasing with time.
Lastly, every kid wrecks his first car. It's a truism, but it is based on fact. So he drives carefully. How about with the car loaded with kids chanting "Floor It, Floor It, etc." I'd go a different route. A Hyundai Elantra, 10 years old, or so. They are like anvils, you can beat on them. They are quick, 0 - 60 in less than 8 seconds. I got my 2007 for $3700 two years ago. My car had 91K miles, I'm now at 141K and expect service until 250K. I may have to replace the clutch before too long. You'll do what you want, but be mindful about it. I'd say to the kid that if he can drive for two years without a single ticket, he can drive the Charger.
Good Luck, R.
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Re: 440 build
[Re: gss]
#2370496
09/14/17 01:40 AM
09/14/17 01:40 AM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 246 Cranberry Twp PA (North of Pit...
rumblefish72
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If you decide to (or need to) go to 0.060" over, PM me. I have a nice set of 10.25 to 1 Venolia Pistons with 0.990 pins and factory LY rods (bushed to 990 on the small end) that you can have for the cost of shipping. I built almost that exact same RB motor (MP 509 cam, ported Stage IV Heads, Rhodes Lifters, etc) back in 1987. They're all good parts that came out when the #2 bore got a hairline crack on the major thrust side. I'd sonic check your block before considering going 60 over. I'm finally getting around to "reblocking" this spare motor with a 0.030 RB block I picked up from a member here and I'm throwing Eagle Rods into it so the old pistons, pins and rods are all headed to eBay if you aren't interested. This stuff is pretty light so you'll have to rebalance with your crank. My machinist recommended I reuse the LY Rods with new bolts at the power level of this build but I decided to invest a little more in case I ever put better heads and a bigger cam on it. Back in the day, I cut most of the lawns in my neighborhood so I know what that's like. I'll help pay it forward if your boys are interested in Mopars (none of my kids are). I just dug up a picture of the rods and pistons out of my pictures on paper from film archive so you can see the parts. The pistons have mild carbon buildup from maybe 2500 street miles but I assume that your kids can scrub These parts look fine. And before anybody PMs me asking for the rods, I'm only extending this deal to "gss" and his boys.
Last edited by rumblefish72; 09/14/17 01:41 AM. Reason: forgot to add picture
1972 Pro-Street 'Cuda, 500" Eagle stoker B Block, Eddy RPM heads, Victor Manifold, 850 Mighty Demon, Hemi 4 Speed, Dana 60 w/4.88 gears - Built by Hansen Racing Middlesex - NJ
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Re: 440 build
[Re: rumblefish72]
#2370993
09/14/17 11:11 PM
09/14/17 11:11 PM
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gss
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If you decide to (or need to) go to 0.060" over, PM me. I have a nice set of 10.25 to 1 Venolia Pistons with 0.990 pins and factory LY rods (bushed to 990 on the small end) that you can have for the cost of shipping. I built almost that exact same RB motor (MP 509 cam, ported Stage IV Heads, Rhodes Lifters, etc) back in 1987. They're all good parts that came out when the #2 bore got a hairline crack on the major thrust side. I'd sonic check your block before considering going 60 over. I'm finally getting around to "reblocking" this spare motor with a 0.030 RB block I picked up from a member here and I'm throwing Eagle Rods into it so the old pistons, pins and rods are all headed to eBay if you aren't interested. This stuff is pretty light so you'll have to rebalance with your crank. My machinist recommended I reuse the LY Rods with new bolts at the power level of this build but I decided to invest a little more in case I ever put better heads and a bigger cam on it. Back in the day, I cut most of the lawns in my neighborhood so I know what that's like. I'll help pay it forward if your boys are interested in Mopars (none of my kids are). I just dug up a picture of the rods and pistons out of my pictures on paper from film archive so you can see the parts. The pistons have mild carbon buildup from maybe 2500 street miles but I assume that your kids can scrub These parts look fine. And before anybody PMs me asking for the rods, I'm only extending this deal to "gss" and his boys. PM sent
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Re: 440 build
[Re: gss]
#2481268
04/11/18 09:03 PM
04/11/18 09:03 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,193 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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Is the 8915PT the head gasket of choice for a 10.5:1 engine? Also, I don't see any valley pan gaskets with the heat crossover blocked. Does anyone still make them? Thanks! Fel Pro still sells the valley pan with no heat crossover passage in them,Fel Pro part # 1215 As far as head gasket part #s you probably mean the 8519PT which is the common Fel Pro replacement Perma torque part #, the 1009 will also work on stock bore 440 motors up to .040 over size well, after that it depends on the heads and blocks used if the 1009 will protrude into the combustion chamber. The 1009head gasket has a 4.410 bore size according to the Fel Pro specs on that head gasket, the 8519PT is a little bigger than that, maybe by .060 to .100 IHTHs
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 440 build
[Re: rumblefish72]
#2481287
04/11/18 09:42 PM
04/11/18 09:42 PM
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Superfreak
Unregistered
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Superfreak
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If you decide to (or need to) go to 0.060" over, PM me. I have a nice set of 10.25 to 1 Venolia Pistons with 0.990 pins and factory LY rods (bushed to 990 on the small end) that you can have for the cost of shipping. I built almost that exact same RB motor (MP 509 cam, ported Stage IV Heads, Rhodes Lifters, etc) back in 1987. They're all good parts that came out when the #2 bore got a hairline crack on the major thrust side. I'd sonic check your block before considering going 60 over. I'm finally getting around to "reblocking" this spare motor with a 0.030 RB block I picked up from a member here and I'm throwing Eagle Rods into it so the old pistons, pins and rods are all headed to eBay if you aren't interested. This stuff is pretty light so you'll have to rebalance with your crank. My machinist recommended I reuse the LY Rods with new bolts at the power level of this build but I decided to invest a little more in case I ever put better heads and a bigger cam on it. Back in the day, I cut most of the lawns in my neighborhood so I know what that's like. I'll help pay it forward if your boys are interested in Mopars (none of my kids are). I just dug up a picture of the rods and pistons out of my pictures on paper from film archive so you can see the parts. The pistons have mild carbon buildup from maybe 2500 street miles but I assume that your kids can scrub These parts look fine. And before anybody PMs me asking for the rods, I'm only extending this deal to "gss" and his boys. This is absolutely awesome, This is part of what makes the hobby great.
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Re: 440 build
[Re: gss]
#2484450
04/18/18 12:22 AM
04/18/18 12:22 AM
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gss
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This is the .509 cam I removed from the 440. It has maybe 1500 miles on it. As you can see there is a flaw on the lobe. The corresponding lifter is also pictured, and looks perfect. This is the closing side of the lobe. My machinist, who has never steered me wrong, says it is fine to run. I have never been one to reuse a cam, even if it is perfect, so I am reluctant. My kids want to use it, mainly because the money to replace it would have to come from some other part of the project.
Would we be crazy to use it?
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Re: 440 build
[Re: Jerry]
#2484455
04/18/18 12:42 AM
04/18/18 12:42 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,193 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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if that cam wears out, you will have to tear the whole engine down again and reassemble. cams aren't that expensive. I would swap it now while its apart I would buy a better cam than the old one BTW,I don't like, recommend or use any of the old Mopar purple shaft cams in anything I build
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 04/18/18 12:42 AM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 440 build
[Re: gss]
#2485209
04/19/18 06:25 PM
04/19/18 06:25 PM
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dogdays
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I think the Comp XE275HL will outrun that 509 cam every day. If that isn't enough, the XE285HL will definitely school the .509. The new MP price on the 509 cam is obscene. It is available in the 108 LSA original version and also in a 114LSA version to tame the idle a bit. But it still has lazy lift rates and far too much duration for the lift. My R.
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Re: 440 build
[Re: dogdays]
#2485248
04/19/18 08:26 PM
04/19/18 08:26 PM
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gss
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I think the Comp XE275HL will outrun that 509 cam every day. If that isn't enough, the XE285HL will definitely school the .509. The new MP price on the 509 cam is obscene. It is available in the 108 LSA original version and also in a 114LSA version to tame the idle a bit. But it still has lazy lift rates and far too much duration for the lift. My R. Yeah you could get a roller for the price of that .509. Comp sells what looks like an exact replica for $200 though. Thanks for the reply, I will look at those Comp Cams cams. I think they may be testing the limits of the factory non-adjustable rockers.
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Re: 440 build
[Re: lewtot184]
#2485639
04/20/18 03:21 PM
04/20/18 03:21 PM
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gss
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for me the biggest issue would be do you want to run pump gas or not. I already have a set of pistons ready to go, so it will be okay on 91 octane.
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