440 build

Hi Gang, my sons decided to get my '71 Charger running. It hasn't seen daylight in 25 years. They already got the engine out and the top end off. It looks pretty good inside but it always needed a lot of octane booster to run well so they are going to rebuild it to be a little more practical.

It is .030 with L2295 pistons, DC .509 cam, Stage IV heads, TM-7 intake, and headers. I ran an 800 Double Pumper but that is being used on another car so they may try a fresh Holley 950 3 bbl I have laying around.

Does anyone make a relatively light weight 440 piston?

The cam and lifters look great. Any reason not to reuse them? I would probably change the valve springs.

Does it make sense to recondition the rods with all the cheap aftermarket rods that are available today?

Thanks!

There are PLENTY of lighter pistons on the market for 440s. Just google it or cruise any mail order website. There are good, honest vendors here on the sponsor page as well.

Same with rods. I'd stay away from super cheap eBay rods, but there are plenty of offerings in
the aftermarket that makes re-doing 40 year old rods a waste of money for the risk involved.

Enjoy the project with your sons. That in itself is awesome!!!

On your deal with you willing to replace the rods and pistons I would look at having the stock forged steel crankshaft offset ground down to 2.200 rod journal sizes and increase the stroke to 3.91 using a decent after market forged steel H beam BB Chevy type rod on both ends as long as possible(7.100 long ) and a set of pump gas friendly forged reversed dome pistons from either 440 Source or KB Icon pistons
That is a real good combination for your deal as long as you can get the crank offset ground reasonably
The other alternative is to buy a complete 4.250 stroke balanced stroker pump gas kit to make the motor bigger
Lots of choices out there now on that kit
Good luck, have fun

I'd use what you have, new rings.... different cam thou. something a tad more modern. maybe a new timing chain and roll...

I will talk to my machine shop about the offset journals. I'm not too worried about making max horsepower. It is going to have way more power than a 16 year old should have.

If the compression ratio was a little lower, I would do just that. Also those old forged pistons seemed to have lot of piston slap. I'd like it to be a little quieter.

I am sure there are better cams but I loved this one. It was a torque monster right off idle and revved hard to well over 7000 RPM. It has an aluminum flywheel so it revved really fast.

Thanks!

You need to remember or know that all late model Mopars with throttle cables can have the throttle cable adjusted to limit the power by not opening the carb. all the way on the throttle cable holder on the engine
If he is a hot rodder or likes speed do it now, limit the throttle opening, for a while so he doesn't get hurt or in more trouble than he can handle now so he won't know how much power can be had later
Good luck either way

He is a very cautious driver so I am not too worried about him. My 13 year old is another story

Thanks

The lifters appear to be in perfect condition. Any reason they shouldn't be reused after sitting 25 years? I haven't mic'd the cam yet but it looks great as well.

When I last drove it, I thought the valves were floating a bit earlier and sitting without the rockers loosened doesn't help. So I want to check out the valve springs. Does anyone know what spring pressures I need with the old 509 cam?

I noticed the inside of the engine - the lifter valley and under the valve covers is black. No sludge or anything, just black. The PCV valve looks fine. Is there anything else I should look for to explain this. This engine always ran really well, better than others with the 509 cam that I knew of. I changed the 20w50 VR1 every year with well under 1000 miles on it.

440source pistons are pretty good.

Mahle pistons and Molnar 7.1" rods.

Probably better than any lifters you could get today.

torque monsters don't need 7K rpm to get it done.

On your deal reusing the old cam and lifters already broke in with new valve springs I would look for 140 to 170 lbs. on the seats and from 325 to 375 lbs. at max lift
As far as the black coating did you use ARP assembly lube and black cam lube on the motor?
If so that may be where your black coating colors are coming from still
That stuff is a bear to get flushed out of the motor, especially if it is a street car that doesn't go on long trips over two hundred miles at a time

It all depends on the budget of course but if the money is available I'd buy aluminum heads for that engine. The modern chamber design in the aluminum heads will allow you to run pump gas and you'll lose a bunch of weight off the nose of the car.

You should be able to sell those Stage IV heads for a decent amount which will offset some of the cost of the aluminum heads.

I didn't do the initial build so I am not sure what was used. Thank you for the spring info.

Well the budget is that of a 16yo and 13yo whose income comes from mowing the lawn so different heads are probably not high on the list. This is primarily a learning experience for them.

That brings up another question though. The last pair of heads (906 heads)I sent to the machine shop came back with cracks in the valve guide towers. They claimed that was normal and not a problem. Another machine shop told me the same thing. I don't agree. I think this would cause oil to be sucked through into the valve guide. These are experienced shops that build a lot of engines. Is it unreasonable to expect my heads to come back with no cracks?

If the guide tops where cracked by the machine shops pressing in new guides or guide inserts then having them machined for press on, not push on, valve seals should seal the cracks off from oil

Well the cam is perfect.... except one tiny scratch on a lobe. I think it was running this way. Its right on the closing flank so maybe it survived. Regardless, I think I need to replace it

Any suggestions for a cam that performs as good or better than the old .509 Purple Shaft? Pump gas friendly.

Offset grind on the crank is $425. Looks like aftermarket rods are going to be $500 whether they are are stock stroke or 3.91. Pistons are going to be around $500 too. Are those typical figures?

Thanks

With those figures I'd go for a stroker kit.. Complete with rods .crank and pistons for around the same numbers..you will never go back to stock stroke..!!!

The price for turning the crank is a bit on
the pricey side but when you figure the
price of the cheaper rods and pistons(chevy)
it will be close to a wash.. a stroker crank
kit might be right as of now.. that would
take care of the bottom end..then look at
the heads and cam.. heads would be my next
step.. just start on the basic block stuff..
if you look around you can buy a lot of the
stuff at reasonable prices when on sale...
none of this stuff is cheap on a high school
kids income but when its done he will have a
nice piece.. have fun with the kid while you can

I would much prefer starting with a used cam and lifter set which wore into each other in the same engine they're going back to. You said you liked the cam back in the day. Yes there are many more modern cams with faster lifter acceleration giving more area under the flow curve BUT the money wasted on a new cam could be put to better use, while eliminating a potential problem breaking in the new cam.

If you search for my handle and .509, you will see that I don't think this cam is all that wonderful. But it can be changed any time. It's a lot easier to swap cams than it is to pull an engine out of the car and clean every oil passage So keeping the current cam is a no-brainer for me.

I agree that the valve guides won't leak around the guides. I have seen similar cracking on heads that were rebuilt. IF you must use stock heads, scout around for a pair of 452 heads, even 213 heads. These are later heads with induction hardened valve seat areas. None of the 440 heads flow sufficient air for a 440 or larger high output engine. There is very little magic in 906s. They came on every bigblock, even the two barrel ones.

I think you're on the right track. Stock crank, stock rods, newer lighter pistons. Stock type heads. Don't pay much for the head cores, they have value decreasing with time.

Lastly, every kid wrecks his first car. It's a truism, but it is based on fact. So he drives carefully. How about with the car loaded with kids chanting "Floor It, Floor It, etc." I'd go a different route. A Hyundai Elantra, 10 years old, or so. They are like anvils, you can beat on them. They are quick, 0 - 60 in less than 8 seconds. I got my 2007 for $3700 two years ago. My car had 91K miles, I'm now at 141K and expect service until 250K. I may have to replace the clutch before too long. You'll do what you want, but be mindful about it. I'd say to the kid that if he can drive for two years without a single ticket, he can drive the Charger.

Good Luck,
R.

New rings, bearings, gasket set, thicker head gaskets to scrub off some compression, dingle ball hone it, and run it.

Life's too short and so are attention spans when you're young. Just get it on the road. Build a hopped up engine later.

Like I said, the cam is probably junk and it really needs some quieter pistons. Leaning towards getting the "factory replacement" rods form 440 Source. I will be talking to my machinist tomorrow...

Don't you dare piss money away by buying new rods. With your build those rods will last another 40 years with a set ARP rod bolts. My machinist only Charged me $100 to turn my crank. If you want a good set of lightweight pistons I suggest calling Racetec. My forged 40 over pistons that I bought off of them only weighed 670 grams. I suggest calling them. Good luck!

If you decide to (or need to) go to 0.060" over, PM me. I have a nice set of 10.25 to 1 Venolia Pistons with 0.990 pins and factory LY rods (bushed to 990 on the small end) that you can have for the cost of shipping. I built almost that exact same RB motor (MP 509 cam, ported Stage IV Heads, Rhodes Lifters, etc) back in 1987. They're all good parts that came out when the #2 bore got a hairline crack on the major thrust side. I'd sonic check your block before considering going 60 over. I'm finally getting around to "reblocking" this spare motor with a 0.030 RB block I picked up from a member here and I'm throwing Eagle Rods into it so the old pistons, pins and rods are all headed to eBay if you aren't interested. This stuff is pretty light so you'll have to rebalance with your crank. My machinist recommended I reuse the LY Rods with new bolts at the power level of this build but I decided to invest a little more in case I ever put better heads and a bigger cam on it.

Back in the day, I cut most of the lawns in my neighborhood so I know what that's like. I'll help pay it forward if your boys are interested in Mopars (none of my kids are). I just dug up a picture of the rods and pistons out of my pictures on paper from film archive so you can see the parts. The pistons have mild carbon buildup from maybe 2500 street miles but I assume that your kids can scrub These parts look fine.

And before anybody PMs me asking for the rods, I'm only extending this deal to "gss" and his boys.

I helped my son build a 340 duster with a 6 pack carb set up. We did the whole car, and he never wrecked it or even got a ticket, he came to races and we raced together. Did a 67 coronet with my daughter as well, probably the best money I ever spent in raising my kids. So keep your boys interested in something besides a cell phone. I currently am building a 440 for my street rod out of spare parts I have accumulated over the years, so its a budget like yours. Stock crank and rods with arp bolts, same 509 cam, used sealed power forged flat top pistons, they are forged with coatings on the shirts. They use a different alloy so they clearance like a cast piston. http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Sealed-Power-Speed-Pro-L2266F-Forged-Piston-Set-8-440-Mopar-Flat-Top-1-991-/302433751535?epid=220083592&hash=item466a74d1ef:g:p-AAAOSw7cxZpxyq&vxp=mtr

Used closed chamber 915 heads with hardened seats on the exhaust, and used 440 intake valves. I have a seat and guide machine and its really hard not to crack a couple guide tops when pushing in new guides. I like to put liners in them instead, if they are not worn too much. I have never had the cracks cause any trouble.

PM sent

Well, the kids got the brakes and fuel system all finished. Now they can start on the engine assembly.

It turned out the block had a small crack so we had to use my spare 440. This one turned out to be excellent. It cleaned up easily so I had to decline rumblefish72's amazing offer.

Is the 8915PT the head gasket of choice for a 10.5:1 engine?
Also, I don't see any valley pan gaskets with the heat crossover blocked. Does anyone still make them? Thanks!

Fel Pro still sells the valley pan with no heat crossover passage in them,Fel Pro part # 1215
As far as head gasket part #s you probably mean the 8519PT which is the common Fel Pro replacement Perma torque part #, the 1009 will also work on stock bore 440 motors up to .040 over size well, after that it depends on the heads and blocks used if the 1009 will protrude into the combustion chamber. The 1009head gasket has a 4.410 bore size according to the Fel Pro specs on that head gasket, the 8519PT is a little bigger than that, maybe by .060 to .100
IHTHs

This is absolutely awesome, This is part of what makes the hobby great.

This is the .509 cam I removed from the 440. It has maybe 1500 miles on it. As you can see there is a flaw on the lobe. The corresponding lifter is also pictured, and looks perfect. This is the closing side of the lobe. My machinist, who has never steered me wrong, says it is fine to run. I have never been one to reuse a cam, even if it is perfect, so I am reluctant. My kids want to use it, mainly because the money to replace it would have to come from some other part of the project.

Would we be crazy to use it?

if that cam wears out, you will have to tear the whole engine down again and reassemble. cams aren't that expensive. I would swap it now while its apart

I would buy a better cam than the old one
BTW,I don't like, recommend or use any of the old Mopar purple shaft cams in anything I build

Is there an off-the-shelf cam that is superior in every way?

I really loved that cam. I am sure there are grinds that will provide more torque under the curve and get down the track quicker, but the old 509/292 ran great and sounded great in a street car.

I see Comp makes a replica. I seem to recall Mopar widened the centerline of this cam to tame it a little. The original was 108?

I think the Comp XE275HL will outrun that 509 cam every day. If that isn't enough, the XE285HL will definitely school the .509.

The new MP price on the 509 cam is obscene.
It is available in the 108 LSA original version and also in a 114LSA version to tame the idle a bit. But it still has lazy lift rates and far too much duration for the lift.

My

R.

Yeah you could get a roller for the price of that .509. Comp sells what looks like an exact replica for $200 though. Thanks for the reply, I will look at those Comp Cams cams. I think they may be testing the limits of the factory non-adjustable rockers.

I would run what you have. Clean it up, new valve springs, regasket it and put it back together. You can check the bearings if you want but if they're ok I'd be inclined to button it up and run it. That sounds like a fun old school build, more enjoyable for the kids to toss something back together than to spend a bunch of money and time agonizing over picking new replacement stuff.

for me the biggest issue would be do you want to run pump gas or not.

I already have a set of pistons ready to go, so it will be okay on 91 octane.