Hi, Just wondering about the Graveyard Cars Phantom Cuda project. If you saw that show, they replaced the entire front cowl as well as 90% of the rest of that car. Yet they claim it is the Cuda they started with. How can they make such a claim if all the sheetmetal was replaced when doing the restoration? How much sheetmetal on a panel can be replaced without compromising the vin stampings on said panel. 10% 20% 50% ??? How can they legally register and insure that car when all the vin stampings appear to be gone?? And if what they did is illegal how does the show survive without law enforcement intervention? And if it is illegal, why do these folks as well as AMD who is a sponsor on this site continue to show magazine articles of changing out these panels with no reference whatsoever to where the vin stampings go to?? I always get confused about this stuff, and I know there are people on here that are real experts at answering these questions?

It seems you can put the vin on new AMD panels you just can't put it on a complete donor car.

How does one determine who did what in that case after the car is done? This subject gets very very interesting and very vague short of nobody ever placing or replacing any stampings or vin numbers anywhere regardless of whether it is the Phantom Cuda or not?? Would these folks be accused of Faking tags and stampings?? I am just very curious how this works. Once that car is done, can we still call it that very special Phantom Cuda?

Talk to your local Secretary of State...

They issue the registrations...

And the titles...

They didn't cover much detail about their "signature" car maybe to skip prying eyes. I would be curious what they will do with it after it is done. Is it theirs or a customer car? Maybe it was to showcase what could be done with all the new sheetmetal that we can get these days.

They kind of gave up on it and then sent it over to AMD who practically replaced every panel on that car. So my question I am trying to get answered was whether that car is still that car?

It belongs to a customer - not them.

So the last time a "simple" question similar to this was asked it spawned a 20 page debate! And of course there is no definitive "answer", just each individual's opinion.

Ya, I guess your right. Each individuals opinion. Snowstorms are boring.

At Moparconnectionmagazine.com we are doing a 70 Hemi Cuda convertible. Everyone on here was saying AMD Installations only do rust repair and replace panels. Think again!
Go here for the introduction of the project:

http://moparconnectionmagazine.com/galle...us-project-yet/

Craig and Bill and their shop are miracle workers. I have the car back now and I am blown away! Numbers were not moved. It is a tribute car but still has it's original documentation. The best part is once they start on the car in 6 - 8 weeks it is done!

We will share the follow up to this story soon.

after carefully reading your posts I came to the conclusion that you were on a mission. before I get started let me say that I am not a big fan of the representation of the show. that being said I believe you have not thought threw what some of your questions insinuate. first the car was not stolen (I think) so there would be no vin change for fraud, second I don't think that it was insurance job ( which brings another scenario )so the car was not deemed unsafe or rebuildable by insurance standards, it was or is under the care of a private individual or the assigned repair facility for owner instructed repairs. That ends a short answer for part one.

part 2: the insurance industry has done a lot worse repairing cars by splicing the front or rear half of one car to another or as you can see on ebay and all over the internet a number of totaled cars ( which is supposed to mean its unsafe to repair. but that has now changed to not financially feasible to repair according to value of the vehicle .)the Insurance industry is nothing more than a business trying to control their losses a maximizing their profits. not safety or legal issues with vin numbers. that is short version of number two.

part 3 : The most important part for all of us who own any collectible cars from Duisenberg's to Dodges. what about all the enthusiasts over the years from back in 30's till now that have scavenged parts from old wrecks or salvaged yards to save their vehicle and all the antiques from the past. I can easily see how someone pushing those questions towards some type of regulation that would end it all for all of us. because no matter how noble your reason is once Uncle Sam gets involved he will screw it up for all of us.

My intent was to just simply ask about body panels which originally incorporated vin numbers and how you change out rusted ones which AMD makes without compromising what the car is? Am I not correct in that Phantom Cuda having all those panels changed out?? What did they do to keep those numbers intact, if they changed the sheetmetal. How does anybody 10 years down the road understand what they are looking at?

You only need one vin on the car - the one on the dashboard.

Body parts get swapped out all the time due to damage - if one of them disappears then it disappears.

I don't know of any body shop that is going to waste their time stamping vin numbers into replacement panels.

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In another GYC episode, they refuse to do a wing car "because it was too far gone & could be considered a rebody" (which someone else will probably do).

Not exactly sure where the line actually is since the Cuda looked just as far gone.

well---luckily 99.9 % of policemen dont know about body stampings and really dont care------see if they really did care they would tow away every hot rod with an aftermarket frame at your local car show---then tow away every fiber glass reproduction car as well....

Why on earth the vin tag was riveted to the dash pad is beyond me. So much angst is caused when restoring one.

Another real good point. How do you replace and restore an ebody dash pad without removing and reinstalling the vin tag. Now once it is removed how do you ever know it was originally on the car? But places like just dashes does them all the time and there is no talk about it. I think the rules are all over the place.

Well, where else would be a good place that's still visible?

Wouldn't it be hilarious if someone uncovered minutes from a corporate meeting in which it was decided "VINs will be installed on the dash to simplify repairs and facilitate a complete body swap in the event of major structural damage".

The VIN plate on a early 90's Ford Escort is riveted the the plastic dash defroster trim panel. You just pop it out with screwdriver if you want to swap VIN tags. I noticed that when working at Ford dealer when the cars were new, seemed laughable. Although they also had VIN stickers on sheet metal panels.
I bought a 91 Eagle Talon with the VIN swapped dash defroster panel. It didn't match the door sticker or other body stickers. Parts car it is.

A vehicle is legally defined by it's paperwork, nothing more, nothing less, if you own the tags and title, your free to replace any and all components including a replacement body


Circled in red are the only "original" components of the GYC/AMD Cuda left for "restoration"

The serial number of my Challenger and likely all you all's Mopars is stamped on the cowl and as I recall near the radiator supports,,,perhaps other points. Dealing with this is a bit more complicated than popping on a repro vin plate.

IMHO this matter of matching numbers and original factory components has reached a point of irrelevance and has become just a bit farcical.. Corvettes in particular,,,however all marquees are almost as guilty,,,with their Bloomington, Duntov, and Top Flight awards being people's exhibit number one. Example, a perfect undetectable reproduction of a 67 Vette L 88 with all perfect documentation is worth let's say 125,000.00. One of the 20 so called 'real' ones might bring 3 to 4 million at auction,,,,and no one could be absolutely positive that the one they hold is not a clone,,,,and the 'real' one with the same vin is squelched away somewhere in someone's garage or buried elsewhere.

I would venture to suggest if one were to bring back 10 assembly line workers from the factories of any of makes that are at any concours where these 100 point cars are being showed, and ax them what they thought of how close to factory standard and original they appeared,,,when they were finished choking with laughter,,,they likely would all say, "we didn't build that". Somewhat at odds with the object of restoring the car to the standard of the moment it left the sssemly line. True perfect so called "survivors" get a pass on this. However even they have been successfully cloned as their subjective values have dramatically increased in some instances.

This all has certainly developed a cottage industry of counterfeit cars and Barrett Jackson auctions. There is not a car that has ever been built that some creative genius could not duplicate to such a degree of perfection that the most expert of experts could not be and likely have been fooled by.

Happens all the time in fine art and Korean and Iranian manufacturered hundred dollar bills, why not cars, they are far easier.

As some wag once stated: "Follow the money".