Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
#2106422
07/08/16 07:39 PM
07/08/16 07:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,345 west palm beach, florida
modelmakerinc
OP
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OP
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OK SUPER LOW BUCK DEAL. basically stock '76 400, runs well, doesn't smoke but low on power. I want to do nothing more than swap out the low compression pistons for some KB240 ones, I do not want to do this if it needs to be bored oversize, I do not want to do any thing other than bump the compression.
QUESTION....when the heads come off, with a dial/bore gauge what is the maximum the cylinders can be to use standard bore pistons /rings???
If it has too much wear and needs to be bored, I will not take it apart father and it will go right back together.
If I can go the route of new pistons, I will mill the heads and deck the block only minimal to clean-up the surfaces, and be able to use fel-pro composite gaskets and gain cc's
Last edited by modelmakerinc; 07/08/16 07:40 PM.
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Re: Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
[Re: modelmakerinc]
#2106606
07/09/16 12:35 AM
07/09/16 12:35 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,207 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
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If the bore tapered is over .003 from top to bottom I would bore it and replace the pistons and rings That being said some old time mechanics back when I was young, right after dirt was invented ,use to say if has over .015 taper bore it
Last edited by Cab_Burge; 07/09/16 12:35 AM.
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
[Re: modelmakerinc]
#2106729
07/09/16 10:26 AM
07/09/16 10:26 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,315 Prospect, PA
BSB67
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What is your budget? IMO, it is really hard to tear into a short block, change a bunch of stuff, and come out on the cheep.
Also, in my limited experience, it seems that a really good set of heads on even a well seasoned short block, can give a big bump in performance.
If you sell what you have, and buy some aluminum heads, have them gone through, mill to 70 or 72 cc, you might not be into it for much more $ than what you are thinking now, with a more certain outcome. Just a thought.
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Re: Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
[Re: modelmakerinc]
#2106791
07/09/16 01:03 PM
07/09/16 01:03 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 14,504 So. Burlington, Vt.
fast68plymouth
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What is your budget? IMO, it is really hard to tear into a short block, change a bunch of stuff, and come out on the cheep. This is my experience as well. Cheapest option in my mind is, mill the heads about .060-.070, steel shim gaskets, adjustable pushrods(if you don't have an adjustable valvetrain now). While the heads are off and apart, have them cleaned and do a quicky bowl blend.
68 Satellite, 383 with stock 906’s, 3550lbs, 11.18@123 Dealer for Comp Cams/Indy Heads
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Re: Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
[Re: modelmakerinc]
#2108057
07/11/16 06:44 PM
07/11/16 06:44 PM
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Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 2,652 Stuttgart, Arkansas
rickseeman
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Stuttgart, Arkansas
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OK SUPER LOW BUCK DEAL. basically stock '76 400, runs well, doesn't smoke but low on power. I want to do nothing more than swap out the low compression pistons for some KB240 ones, I do not want to do this if it needs to be bored oversize, I do not want to do any thing other than bump the compression.
QUESTION....when the heads come off, with a dial/bore gauge what is the maximum the cylinders can be to use standard bore pistons /rings???
If it has too much wear and needs to be bored, I will not take it apart father and it will go right back together.
If I can go the route of new pistons, I will mill the heads and deck the block only minimal to clean-up the surfaces, and be able to use fel-pro composite gaskets and gain cc's The motor is 40 years old. I feel that is why it's down on power. Going thru all the work and expense you are talking about to only increase the compression, and nothing else, I feel will give you less than exciting results. The motor is tired dude. I recently tore down 4 1976 400's. It will need everything.
2011 Drag Pak Challenger
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Re: Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
[Re: lewtot184]
#2108095
07/11/16 07:42 PM
07/11/16 07:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 25,836 Rio Linda, CA
John_Kunkel
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my experience with the kb's i've used is that the bore size needs be on the money to achieve recommended clearance. .001"-.002" larger and they're pretty noisey, in fact they're a little noisey cold at .002"-.0025". Better to hear 'em than to smell 'em.
The INTERNET, the MISinformation superhighway
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Re: Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
[Re: modelmakerinc]
#2108735
07/12/16 02:37 PM
07/12/16 02:37 PM
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Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 610 Boise
Moparteacher
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Run a ridge reamer on the top of the cylinders prior to piston removal. Ball hone with an appropriate grit to match the rings, and put it together. If you're worried about piston slap you may consider knurling the pistons and then use a flat file to size the pistons to the individual cylinder. You'll have to check with a machinist as to whether a hypereutectic will take a knurl the same as a cast piston. Stock bore is 4.342. Rings are available in 4.350 for $40. That's .008" over. File fit the rings. Run the steel shim gasket sold through Summit for $25. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/dcc-4286754/overview/It'll use a little oil and make a little noise, maybe, but it'll run, just don't expect to get 200k miles out of it.
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Re: Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
[Re: modelmakerinc]
#2109332
07/13/16 01:06 PM
07/13/16 01:06 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,034 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
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If I can go the route of new pistons, I will mill the heads and deck the block only minimal to clean-up the surfaces, and be able to use fel-pro composite gaskets and gain cc's
Where is Dan when you need him ?? You are going to do ALL that and you can't come up with MAYBE another $300 to BORE it ... seriously ??? Ignore the ridge reamer recommendation , if you don't know what you are doing with it then you will do more HARM than good to the block. I have personally been burned by someone that didn't know how to use one ... had to sleeve a block because it took .075 overbore to get a clean pass, top to bottom, on one cylinder , .040 on the one next to it , the 2 next to those at .030 , the other side would have cleaned at less ...
running up my post count some more .
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Re: Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
[Re: JohnRR]
#2109430
07/13/16 04:03 PM
07/13/16 04:03 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399 Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
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Aurora, Colorado
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If I can go the route of new pistons, I will mill the heads and deck the block only minimal to clean-up the surfaces, and be able to use fel-pro composite gaskets and gain cc's
Where is Dan when you need him ?? You are going to do ALL that and you can't come up with MAYBE another $300 to BORE it ... seriously ??? Ignore the ridge reamer recommendation , if you don't know what you are doing with it then you will do more HARM than good to the block. I have personally been burned by someone that didn't know how to use one ... had to sleeve a block because it took .075 overbore to get a clean pass, top to bottom, on one cylinder , .040 on the one next to it , the 2 next to those at .030 , the other side would have cleaned at less ... I agree. Usually if the ridge is that bad, the block needs an overbore, and most people usually take too much out with a ridge reamer making things worse. Been there and done that and learned from my mistake. A friend raced a low compression 400 engine with decent results. It had a decent sized cam and ported heads, with 6-pack intake and headers. He just used a high stall converter and higher gears to get past the weak low end torque.
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Re: Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
[Re: modelmakerinc]
#2109434
07/13/16 04:10 PM
07/13/16 04:10 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,255 IL
furious70
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seems like buying a used bottle kit and strapping it in is your best bet based on all the parameters.
70 Sport Fury 68 Charger 69 Coronet 72 RR
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Re: Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
[Re: lewtot184]
#2109517
07/13/16 06:20 PM
07/13/16 06:20 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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i didn't know people used ridge reamers anymore. If its a OLD block.. they were soft(before they started putting more nickle in them) you HAD to use a ridge reamer to even get the piston out of the bore.. yeah I still own one somewhere around here but havent used it in over 20 years(maybe 25)
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Re: Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#2109602
07/13/16 09:16 PM
07/13/16 09:16 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916 usa
lewtot184
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i didn't know people used ridge reamers anymore. If its a OLD block.. they were soft(before they started putting more nickle in them) you HAD to use a ridge reamer to even get the piston out of the bore.. yeah I still own one somewhere around here but havent used it in over 20 years(maybe 25) i remember them from back in the day. folks breaking pistons trying to push them thru the ridge,..lol. used to be able to rent thru the mail. i just thought things have progressd to a point to where they were obsolete. i was thinking about a 360 i put together. this was 100,000 mile dakota engine. always unleaded fuel and the oil changed religiously. from what i can remember running a dial bore gauge thru the cylinders that there was next to none taper! that 400 may not have a ridge; if taken care of.
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Re: Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
[Re: Moparteacher]
#2109746
07/14/16 01:23 AM
07/14/16 01:23 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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If you're not boring or power honing the cylinder then ignore the recommendation to ignore using the ridge reamer and use the ridge reamer. It's not rocket science. You may be able to rent one from an auto parts store.
If the new top compression rings run up and over a ridge at the top of the cylinder, even after use of a ball or three finger glaze breaker, it will destroy the new rings and pistons. Even if you use the same piston it will destroy the rings and piston because the new bearing raises the piston height in the cylinder, even thought it's only a thousandths of an inch.
Removing the ridge isn't just for ease of piston removal.
It's easiest to use before piston removal because you can square the tool on top of the piston. It's not rocket science unless you're the guy that screwed it up for JohnRR, and the instructions are an easy read.
Mine sat on the deck so it was square to the deck but I believe any 400 block has plenty of nickle in it... so it might be ok
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Re: Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
[Re: modelmakerinc]
#2109818
07/14/16 10:22 AM
07/14/16 10:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 13,368 Marion, South Carolina [><]
an8sec70cuda
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Every block I had come into the machine shop where I worked that had a ridge reamer used on it was screwed up. Not all, but the vast majority of people will remove way too much material from the bore w/ a reamer. I've taken a lot of motors apart that had big ridges and never used a reamer. Not worried about saving the pistons, so I just knock em out. If it has a big ridge, the pistons shouldn't be getting reused.
CHIP '70 hemicuda, 575" Hemi, 727, Dana 60 '69 road runner, 440-6, 18 spline 4 speed, Dana 60 '71 Demon, 340, low gear 904, 8.75 '73 Chrysler New Yorker, 440, 727, 8.75 '90 Chevy 454SS Silverado, 476" BBC, TH400, 14 bolt '06 GMC 2500HD LBZ Duramax
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Re: Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
[Re: lewtot184]
#2109822
07/14/16 10:27 AM
07/14/16 10:27 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 21,318 Manitoba, Canada
DaytonaTurbo
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i was thinking about a 360 i put together. this was 100,000 mile dakota engine. always unleaded fuel and the oil changed religiously. from what i can remember running a dial bore gauge thru the cylinders that there was next to none taper! that 400 may not have a ridge; if taken care of.
I bet the moly rings, harder block and superior efi fuel control had something to do with that.
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Re: Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
[Re: DaytonaTurbo]
#2109829
07/14/16 10:55 AM
07/14/16 10:55 AM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,916 usa
lewtot184
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i was thinking about a 360 i put together. this was 100,000 mile dakota engine. always unleaded fuel and the oil changed religiously. from what i can remember running a dial bore gauge thru the cylinders that there was next to none taper! that 400 may not have a ridge; if taken care of.
I bet the moly rings, harder block and superior efi fuel control had something to do with that. your probably right. i know leaded fuels ate up engines. as much as we curse unleaded, it does make the cylinders last longer and better oils are a plus.
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Re: Upping the Comp ratio on a 400, engine builders please
[Re: an8sec70cuda]
#2110006
07/14/16 05:11 PM
07/14/16 05:11 PM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399 Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
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Aurora, Colorado
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Every block I had come into the machine shop where I worked that had a ridge reamer used on it was screwed up. Not all, but the vast majority of people will remove way too much material from the bore w/ a reamer. I've taken a lot of motors apart that had big ridges and never used a reamer. Not worried about saving the pistons, so I just knock em out. If it has a big ridge, the pistons shouldn't be getting reused. That is my thoughts also. If it has a slight ridge, take care of it when honing the block. If it has a large ridge, the bores are worn to the point where it really needs overbore and larger pistons/rings. Re-ringing a worn out bore and piston is a waste of money in my opinion. I think some people are afraid or intimidated to take their stuff to a machine shop and get a professional opinion?
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