EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
#2008592
02/09/16 03:34 PM
02/09/16 03:34 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,578 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
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First of all, I know political discussions are frowned upon, BUT this has the potential to ruin the hobby, people's livelihood, aftermarket manufacturers, the entire sport. All of us could become criminals, simply for doing what we do. https://www.sema.org/news/2016/02/08/epa-seeks-to-prohibit-conversion-of-vehicles-into-racecarsI suggest you read this and contact your representatives to express you thoughts on the matter. Moparts, I try to respect the rules. Not trying to start a $%^& storm. This needs to be confronted head on. Thanks.
Last edited by CMcAllister; 02/10/16 01:29 PM. Reason: More specific title
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2008599
02/09/16 03:46 PM
02/09/16 03:46 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
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72Swinger
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Only cure for this level of control is chronic lead poisoning to the morons in the EPA. They would rather the population be standing in a food line addicted to Opioids than be free to build whatever they want.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2008658
02/09/16 05:05 PM
02/09/16 05:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2013
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CTD5.9
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These are the best quotes I can find that people have found in the proposed legislature, this is a huge document to go through. EPA is proposing in 40 CFR 1037.601(a)(3) to clarify that the Clean Air Act does not allow any person to disable, remove, or render inoperative (i.e., tamper with) emission controls on a certified motor vehicle for purposes of competition. and Certified motor vehicles and motor vehicle engines and their emission control devices must remain in their certified configuration even if they are used solely for competition or if they become nonroad vehicles or engines”. 80 Fed. Reg. 40138, 40565 (July 13, 2015). Wouldn't this still allow you to race a non emissions certified car? and possibly a purpose built car like a pro mod or a dragster? I would guess that they are attacking chips and cat removal mods.
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Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2008673
02/09/16 05:32 PM
02/09/16 05:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,367 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I am pretty sure removing any federally mandated emissions control equipment is already illegal in the first place. Stuff like this is why you should support SEMA and its member organization. Oh yeah that includes the NHRA
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CTD5.9]
#2009209
02/10/16 01:47 PM
02/10/16 01:47 PM
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CMcAllister
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Wouldn't this still allow you to race a non emissions certified car? and possibly a purpose built car like a pro mod or a dragster? I would guess that they are attacking chips and cat removal mods. Chips and "test pipes" were addressed years ago. This goes way beyond that.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: Al_Alguire]
#2009242
02/10/16 02:52 PM
02/10/16 02:52 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,578 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
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I am pretty sure removing any federally mandated emissions control equipment is already illegal in the first place. Stuff like this is why you should support SEMA and its member organization. Oh yeah that includes the NHRA As I understand it, modifications to or removing emissions control equipment is illegal for vehicles registered and driven on public roads. Always has been. But there has always been a "legal for off road use only" exemption for race cars and other off road competition and recreational use vehicles that were once federally certified, but are no longer used on public highways, and the parts and pieces used to build such vehicles. That was Congress' intent. EPA intends to eliminate that exemption. Think no more big blocks in slant six Dusters, Stockers or Super Stockers that were not factory race cars, fast "street" cars built on OE bodies, etc. In other words, your '73 Dart or '82 Camaro or '89 Fox body Mustang has to remain as it was built and certified for federal emissions. I have no idea of what they think will happen to all of the cars this will affect. Anyone who has dealt with trying to get a car inspected that had the AIR pump or the cat removed or failed an emissions inspection and had to either fix it, junk it or pay some kind of penalty, can use their imagination. I can assure you, dealing with the EPA will not be like dealing with your buddy down at the shop when you get your state inspection done.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2009254
02/10/16 03:01 PM
02/10/16 03:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,367 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
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I understand the issues believe me. Removing that equipment has always been a federal violation period. Taking off an air pump, transplanting a Bb where a SB was. Building a HP motor and putting it in a newer car, all those things have been federally illegal for ions. That is nothing new. This does go quite a bit further but also echoes much of the standing law already. I also second what Andy says, these cases routinely get thrown our of court as the EPA oversteps its authority. In many states Smog inspections are state administered at state facilities so no good guy deal there. Most also have a cap on dollar amounts needed to receive a waiver. The key is these are state administered programs not federally run programs.
Like I said before this is the biggest reason to support SEMA and its member organizations. They are the lobbying body for this kind of legislation. Calling your Congressman or Senator is a good idea too, but not sure it will matter given how things are done in this city anymore. I have had to deal with the EPA directly for years in my job working in and for the USAF. There is no reasoning with them, it is there way or the highway, meaning their interpretation of the law as they choose to read it at that particular time by that particular inspector. One of the reasons they loose so many suits is the inherent overstepping of their authority. Very well known in industries that deal directly with the EPA that they rule the world or at least feel they do.
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: rapom]
#2009427
02/10/16 06:55 PM
02/10/16 06:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 13,247 Mt. Vernon, Ohio
dartman366
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and of course they have no clue how many job's that they would kill if they succeed in making these decision's stick,,,where do they find these people anyway.
Light travels faster than the speed of sound,,,this is why some people seem bright untill you hear them speak.
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2009440
02/10/16 07:31 PM
02/10/16 07:31 PM
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Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 150 It's Complicated
HDNMOPERS
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Yeah you can bet everyone at the EPA is driving electric cars. Wearing hemp cloths made by hand not from some textile sweatshop powered by burning old tires in some foreign country. They raise hell about nuclear power plants. But they sure don't care about 6000 servicemen on a nuclear powered aircraft carrier. Where they work and live around the reactor 24hrs a day. Its like PEETA pee ons. What the hell do those people eat and drink. You can't tell me there ain't one of them hasn't sneaked off in their leather shoes and as a hamburger. With a EPA guy driving them to the Mcdonald's in a diesel truck with a tuner on it. LOL
Last edited by HDNMOPERS; 02/10/16 07:32 PM.
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Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2009567
02/10/16 11:23 PM
02/10/16 11:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 19,367 Las Vegas
Al_Alguire
I Live Here
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I Live Here
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FWIW Emissions controls started on 1967, so don't think this would only apply to later model stuff...Just saying
"I am not ashamed to confess I am ignorant of what I do not know."
"It's never wrong to do the right thing"
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Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: b1dartsport]
#2009575
02/10/16 11:33 PM
02/10/16 11:33 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 205 Illinois
gearhead01
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That case/issue was regarding coal burning for electric generation. Different law than the racecar issue. The EPA has more rules/regulations in multiple layers it is near impossible to keep up what they are doing. That is how SEMA missed it initially. Buried in non related paragraphs to camouflage it. John
1971 Satellite Sebring Plus - 14.46 @ 95.43 1977 Road Runner - N/B 11.02@ 119 Drag Radials
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Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2009598
02/11/16 12:20 AM
02/11/16 12:20 AM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,578 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
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It is buried in a proposed regulation entitled "Greenhouse Gas Emissions and Fuel Efficiency Standards for Medium- and Heavy-Duty Engines and Vehicles—Phase 2.".
Call or email your congress person.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2009676
02/11/16 02:18 AM
02/11/16 02:18 AM
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 506 Utah, USA
1964superstock
mopar
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http://jalopnik.com/how-and-why-you-can-weigh-in-on-the-epas-proposed-race-1758288770"Most of those online petition sites don’t really do much. There’s been dozens of whitegouse.gov petitions over the years to kill the 25-year import ban, and Barack Obama still hasn’t given us the Nissan Skylines we demand. Instead, and happily, our very own government has a system in place for the public to comment on the proposed new rules, and in these comments, we can explain, loudly and confidently, that these changes are insipid and benefit no one, and have a real economic, cultural, and quality-of-life cost for the businesses that have developed around racing and the many, many voting participants in these races. To comment, you’ll want to go here, to the Federal Register, first. https://www.federalregister.gov/articles...uty-engines-andThere you can find the full text of the proposal, and can find and cite the 40 CFR 1037.601(a)(3) section that’s hoping to exclude competition cars from the 40 CFR 1068.235 nonroad competition use exemption. It can’t hurt to be specific. Then, you’ll go here, to Regulations.gov, http://www.regulations.gov/#!docketDetail;D=EPA-HQ-OAR-2014-0827 If you follow that link there that will take you to the specific page for the EPA document in question. There, you’ll see this comment button: How And Why You Can Weigh In On The EPA's Proposed Race Car Rules Click there, and it’ll take you to the comment page. Follow the instructions from there, and feel free to copy and paste from our articles on this if that helps. At this moment, the document has nearly 225,000 comments, so let’s try and get that number up even higher so there’s no way the feds can ignore this. Hopefully, if enough of us express concern at this proposal, and the overall lack of respect for small-scale racing that it represents, we will be able to stop this in its tracks before it can potentially cause the racing community any harm." More good info on this subject. I have added my support against this attack!
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2009852
02/11/16 02:14 PM
02/11/16 02:14 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,578 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
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Interesting thread about this over at Class Racer. An informative attorney's evaluation of the EPA's proposed change is copied in a post on page 5 of that thread. I won't copy it here as it is lengthy, but it is worth reading.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2009982
02/11/16 06:09 PM
02/11/16 06:09 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506 Az
Crizila
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This kinda crap pops up about every 10-15 years. Reminds me of the NRA "they're gonna take out guns away" tactics. In ether case, aint never gonna happen - no matter what you or I do.
Fastest 300
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2010465
02/12/16 02:25 PM
02/12/16 02:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,578 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
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Digging a little deeper in a new article... http://theshopmag.com/news/news-blog-confusing-case-epa-s-position-racing-modsSeems the EPA has taken the position that what we've been doing since 1968 is and has always been illegal, I.E. converting and/or modifying street cars that were federally certified for use on public roads and they are just now getting around to doing something about it. Call or email your congress person. Do it often. I know from my involvement in other, non-automotive and non-PC activities, they pay attention when a group of people get angry and speak up. But do it respectfully.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2010619
02/12/16 06:28 PM
02/12/16 06:28 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 90 NL
Frederick
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383B, 9.8:1, Lunati 60302(220/226@0.050 262/268Dur, 0.475"/0.494", Stealth heads, Performer manifold, QF SS-750-AN carb, 3.31Diff, A833 4-speed manual.
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: gearhead01]
#2011283
02/13/16 07:44 PM
02/13/16 07:44 PM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,260 New Mexico
Adobedude
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pro stock
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Elections have consequences. Vote wisely, and above all...Informed, or don't vote. Thanks.
2001 Dodge Dakota 408 All Motor 11.27 @ 117.83 mph 2017 NM Mopar Challenge Series Champion.
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: Adobedude]
#2011418
02/13/16 10:58 PM
02/13/16 10:58 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Master
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Elections have consequences. Vote wisely, and above all...Informed, or don't vote. Thanks. You got that right.... this place is turning into... never mind
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2013168
02/16/16 03:14 PM
02/16/16 03:14 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,578 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
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Update on the subject at hand. http://theshopmag.com/features/sema-seeks-congressional-support-opposing-epa-racing-mod-rulesCall and/or email your congressional representatives. SEMA is taking this seriously, everyone with any involvement in the sport, hobby, industry, etc., should as well.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2013180
02/16/16 03:36 PM
02/16/16 03:36 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Well they should, its a do or die situation.
The article mentions the EPA is trying to drum up support from congress, seems backwards to me.
From the article, "There wasn’t consensus on the EPA side that they were willing to take any action to address these concerns of ours.”
Why should that surprise anyone?
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2013193
02/16/16 03:54 PM
02/16/16 03:54 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,578 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
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EPA Administrator McCarty appear before a congressional committee last week. In the middle of the 3 hour session, this 2 1/2 minute exchange took place between she and Rep. Austin Scott of Georgia. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYbv8PIwqgsSome people in Congress are paying attention to this. They need to know that we are also.
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2013207
02/16/16 04:05 PM
02/16/16 04:05 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
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Bitopia
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I like the exchange in the link you posted, however, the devil is in the details, the Congressman from the great state of Ga focused on "race cars", the EPA is saying a certified vehicle cannot be converted into a "race car" and thereby made exempt from regulations, they are still on two different pages.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2013208
02/16/16 04:06 PM
02/16/16 04:06 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,123 Seaford Delaware
JSR1485
super stock
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super stock
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As my Grand pa said if their mouth is moving they are lying...
Just remember the EPA said the air @ Ground Zero after 9/11 was safe to breath.
I applaud Congressman Scott for bring it up...
Switched to the dark side...
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2013247
02/16/16 04:50 PM
02/16/16 04:50 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302 Nebraska
72Swinger
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They like to say......that what they say......isn't really what they're saying. If anyone in Congress had have a brain the budget for the EPA would be 1/16th of what it currently is.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2018062
02/23/16 02:34 PM
02/23/16 02:34 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 11,578 Fulton County, PA
CMcAllister
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Thanks to everyone calling, emailing and spreading the word, this issue is getting noticed. Marco Rubio has posted on his website his opposition to these new regulations with a link to the Whitehouse petition, encouraging people to sign it.
Also, EPA has reopened the public comment period for these regs.
An EPA spokeswoman has said “The EPA remains primarily concerned with cases where the tampered vehicle is used on public roads, and more specifically with aftermarket manufacturers who sell devices that defeat emission control systems on vehicles used on public roads.”
They intend to go after anything with tags on it that has had ANY modifications. More important is their intention to go after the aftermarket manufacturers, fine and penalize them and attempt to force them to stop making the parts and pieces we use.
Go to the link and leave your comments for the EPA here...
http://www.regulations.gov/#!submitComment;D=NHTSA-2014-0132-0001
If the results don't match the theory, change the theory.
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2018089
02/23/16 03:23 PM
02/23/16 03:23 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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I believe that anyone with a street rod will end up having a problem... hell my 416 is better now with injection than it was when it was new with a carb.. the engine didnt have a cat on it originally but the Rampage did have a cat and that was it... but here in Mich we dont have any emission testing, havent had it for years... and there was a ruling that said if it cost more than $300 to correct any emissions parts on it it would be exempt... but now days I have no idea what they will do(EPA)and will the cops be made to enforce it.. this sure could play hell for us drag week guys.. I've done all I can do with calls and e-mails to the reps and senators but EPA thinks they are GOD and all they have to say is that they are cleaning up the air... but big factories are still pouring out crap into the air and into the water
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2018109
02/23/16 04:00 PM
02/23/16 04:00 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302 Nebraska
72Swinger
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I wish there was a petition to completely de-fund the EPA altogether. They are nothing but a splinter group of America hating commies, f'em.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: 72Swinger]
#2018130
02/23/16 04:41 PM
02/23/16 04:41 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
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Master
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I wish there was a petition to completely de-fund the EPA altogether. They are nothing but a splinter group of America hating commies, f'em. They have there place BUT they have gone way too far and in many cases in the wrong direction but your right... with this latest thing they will kill the hot rods all together(if they get their way)
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2020470
02/26/16 10:26 PM
02/26/16 10:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
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Taking time off to work on my car
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
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I've signed it myself, and I've sent an e-mail to a bunch of friends and family members who I believe will also take issue w/ the proposed regulations and sign the petition, too. I signed my e-mail: "Thanks, and rev on!" Brad
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: BradH]
#2027523
03/08/16 10:16 PM
03/08/16 10:16 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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Bitopia
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Got this email a few hours ago. Seems like they have been asleep at the wheel, for an industry that is nearly 100% effected by this edict. But the proposed legislation would keep things as they are, they need to put the genie back in the bottle. " Urgent: Support Legislation to Overturn EPA Race Car Regulation! Attention Motorsports Professionals: The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) has proposed a regulation to prohibit conversion of vehicles originally designed for on-road use into race cars. The regulation would also make the sale of certain products for use on such vehicles illegal. The regulation would impact all vehicle types, including the sports cars, sedans and hatch-backs commonly converted strictly for use at the track. The good news is that SEMA is at the forefront of an effort to prevent the EPA regulation from taking effect and we have an action step that you can take to help get the job done! Congressional legislation (H.R. 4715), the “Recognizing the Protection of Motorsports Act of 2016” (RPM Act), has been introduced. The language in H.R. 4715 makes clear that competition-only cars, including converted street vehicles, are excluded from EPA regulation under the Clean Air Act. Please contact your member of Congress and urge them to support the RPM Act by clicking here. PRI is proud to partner with SEMA on this critical issue. For the future of your business and the sport of auto racing, we ask that you join us in the worthwhile fight! Thank you. John Kilroy Publisher of Performance Racing Industry Magazine Producer of the PRI Trade Show PERFORMANCE RACING INDUSTRY Office 949.499.5413 SHOW :: MAGAZINE :: WEB Twitter :: Facebook :: Linked-In :: Instagram :: YouTube CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail, and any documents, files or previous e-mail messages attached to it, may contain confidential information that is legally privileged. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify us by reply e-mail or by telephone at 949.499.5413 and destroy the original transmission. Thank you. Performance Racing Industry, 31706 South Coast Highway, Laguna Beach, CA 92651
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: EPA vs. race cars, if you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: CMcAllister]
#2027631
03/09/16 12:41 AM
03/09/16 12:41 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302 Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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If it keeps things the way they are then why is it in new regulations? I don't trust my govt one iota, and especially the climate extremist sector.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: AndyF]
#2027696
03/09/16 02:57 AM
03/09/16 02:57 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,214 Someplace you aren't
SomeCarGuy
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,214
Someplace you aren't
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EPA would lose that lawsuit. They don't have jurisdiction once the car isn't on a Federal roadway. The current EPA admin is trying very hard to expand their control. They have lost almost every lawsuit so far and will continue to lose them as long as the Supreme Court membership stays the same. We'll see what happens with the next admin. Could get worse or could get better. The membership did change. Thus if a suit is lost against the epa, an appeal that goes to the Supremes wont matter. It would take a majority vote and since they do not in fact vote based on law, but rather ideology. A tie would leave the lost suit intact. The current configuration leaves a tie in a hyper partisan case the outcome. Vice versa a lower court blocking the epa action would hold as well. Both of those are moot if a democrat installs the next justice, as they would then crown the epa the winner. A suit in this case will take years to get that far anyway. Not a political post. Explaining the mechanics of the system.
I want my fair share
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Re: If you race and/or build cars, read this.
[Re: jcc]
#2028504
03/10/16 01:31 PM
03/10/16 01:31 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696 Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Just a friendly reminder. This linked proposed legislation got drafted because of a vocal outcry from many, and it seems got the attention of at least of three people who who can fix this. However, unless a few hundred of their colleagues agree, nothing will improve. We are not out of the woods yet. A note to your representative, etc, encouraging enactment, so they can feel which way the wind is blowing, will certainly help get this enacted. They don't do much good for us on their own, unless they feel the heat, IMO. Keep at it.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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