440 advice needed
#1863320
07/04/15 08:29 AM
07/04/15 08:29 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523 Right here
HP2
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523
Right here
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I’m working on a buddys car, a 71 Satellite Sebring Plus cloned to a Road Runner I sold him a couple of years ago. Lots of options makes it heavy. 440”, A833, Dana 3.54 His girlfriend was driving and the deep pan touched something but she didn't notice so she kept on driving with a smile, but without oil pressure… He was lucky though, we only needed to have crank polished and change all the bearings. The strange thing with this 440 is that it has never run very good. It was in the car when I got it from a member here. I have never had it out before. Over the years I have swapped heads, intakes, cams, carbs, distributors, ignition systems, cam gearing aso without being able to find the problem. Now we will have it zero decked. It has flat top pistons (don’t remember brand) and now the slugs are about .050 - .075 down the bore. Crank has been balanced some time, there's signs of that. Right now it has an RPM intake, a Holley 850 vac, MSD6AL, MP distr., fresh 906 heads, COMP CRB10 XE275HL-10 installed after Comp’s specs, OEM rockers, 2”/3 1/2" headers (think they are tti’s) It runs so-so. The opposite to crisp, clean and willing, no matter what I have tried. Maybe, after all, the deck height has been the issue, even if I don’t think it should have affected THAT much. Will try to get comp ratio around 9.5:1. Now I want to try a new cam. He wants a responsible, low end character that works good with manual. I was thinking a cam with less duration but still lots of lift and LSA. Why not an old alu dual plane and a TQ carb? Would also like to swap those large headers to something in the 1 3/4” size so you can change plugs in less than a day. What do you think fellows?
70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd 70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT 71 Duster 340 71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727 72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip 78 Warlock in beautiful patina
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Re: 440 advice needed
[Re: HP2]
#1863547
07/04/15 02:12 PM
07/04/15 02:12 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,181 Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,181
Bend,OR USA
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Several things are needed to help identify why your parts aren't making a heap of torque and HP Did you check the pushrod preload on the lifters to see if they had .015 to .030 preload? If not do that Also did you degree the cams or line up the dots? If lined up the dots degree it now Install it so it is installed between 105 and 107 on the intake lobe center(max lobe lift at 105 to 107 after top dead center ) You have the parts needed to make real near 500 HP and over 500 Ft lbs torque Do you know how much valve spring ressure you have on the seats and opened? If so post that also What do the spark plugs look like? Can you post a picture of them? If so do that. Little things can kill the performance of a good combination, been there done that to many times Keep after it, you will make it into a real street stomper like your looking for
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: 440 advice needed
[Re: moparx]
#1863672
07/04/15 04:59 PM
07/04/15 04:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 570 USA
Hooligan
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 570
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Instead of welding and filing, a company at... www.4secondsflat.com makes and sells a nifty drop in disc with several different length slots to dial in the mechanical advance on a factory distributor. Only costs twenty bucks!
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Re: 440 advice needed
[Re: HP2]
#1863885
07/04/15 09:29 PM
07/04/15 09:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040 Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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What do you think fellows? I'd do a leakdown plus find what your cranking compression is plus idle vac/speed to get some basic info down pat. then as said determine if you have a mismatched combo (cam?). need deeper gearing maybe? AF ratio
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: 440 advice needed
[Re: gch]
#1864947
07/06/15 10:50 AM
07/06/15 10:50 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523 Right here
HP2
OP
mopar
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OP
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523
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1 3/4 or 1 7/8 headers will bring back some low end/mid range and part throttle response.850 vacuum secondary isn't too big but a 750 with the smaller throttle bore would help the responsiveness also. I would keep the rpm intake,any other dual plane is a step down. That cam should be fine but you can advance it 2-4 degrees for more bottom end. The more work on the heads(air flow)will help everything.No reason that thing shouldn't fry the tires. Make sure the timing is right as well. Same opinion here regarding the headers, 2" are for drag racing. I might have a 750 vac and that would be fully enough, I agree again. I was wrong on the heads, they are 452's. Timing was set to 35 degrees fully advanced w/o vacuum. I know I have the curve somewhere, will look for it. I have to admit I'm not a ignition guru. I always try to have as much advance as possible without pinging...
70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd 70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT 71 Duster 340 71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727 72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip 78 Warlock in beautiful patina
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Re: 440 advice needed
[Re: HP2]
#1864952
07/06/15 10:57 AM
07/06/15 10:57 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,012 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
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He was lucky though, we only needed to have crank polished and change all the bearings.
Now we will have it zero decked. It has flat top pistons (don’t remember brand) and now the slugs are about .050 - .075 down the bore. Crank has been balanced some time, there's signs of that.
What do you think fellows?
If the crank and bearings were wiped what do the piston skirts and cylinder walls look like ? LOSE THE DEEP PAN , put a 70-71 hemi 6qt pan on it unless he wants this to happen again! and DO NOT ZERO DECK THE BLOCK WITH THOSE PISTONS , by the time he pays to ruin an intake and make it only ever fit that block head combo and pay to take that much off the block and the china walls he would be well on his way to the correct parts and a better running engine . As said smaller primary tube headers and a smaller CFM carb will make it more STREETABLE ...
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Re: 440 advice needed
[Re: JohnRR]
#1865136
07/06/15 03:26 PM
07/06/15 03:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
dogdays
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
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First of all, the combination isn't that far off.
Performer RPM - great choice
Holley 850 Vacuum Secondary - Plenty of carb but not too much for a 440. If it's like almost every other 850Vac Sec carb I have read about, it needs tuning. Badly.
Comp XE275HL - Not a bad camshaft. I'd leave it in. Do take the advice to degree it in advanced. It was ground to be advanced four degrees if installed dot-to-dot and I could see going six. The advice to degree it in is right on.
2" headers - More suited for a stroker. I'd think they could be reduced in diameter to get more torque below the torque peak.
Distributor advance curve - speed it up if you're running a stock distributor. And limit the mechanical advance so you can run more initial. There is a lot of apparent power in the distributor, just waiting to be let out.
440s with open chamber heads generally do best at 38 degrees total advance.
Pistons 0.050 or so in the hole - this is typical for a higher performance 440 piston. Only the SixPack L2355F piston would be higher. I agree with JRR.....Don't cut the block 0.050. If you must cut something, cut the heads. There is no advantage to putting pistons at zero deck with an open chamber head like the 452s, or 346s, or 213s, or 906s etc. A stock 440 needs 106cc above the piston to get to 9.5:1. Your heads are probably around 92cc. There's 12 cc in the gap between the piston and top of the deck. If the engine builder bought a Fel-Pro kit with a composition gasket, that gasket can add as much as 12cc. So the engine would be somewhere around 8.7:1 right now. If it has a steel shim in it it's probably around 9.1:1. I calculate you'll need to lose 0.042" from somewhere if running the thick gasket and if running the thin gasket more like 0.020".
I'd suggest putting it together taking care of all the details and trying it with the current headers. If it still needs more poop then maybe swap for smaller header size.
There is a lot of torque hiding in tuning the cam, carb and ignition.
R.
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Re: 440 advice needed
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1865676
07/07/15 04:26 AM
07/07/15 04:26 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523 Right here
HP2
OP
mopar
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OP
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Joined: Sep 2004
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Several things are needed to help identify why your parts aren't making a heap of torque and HP Did you check the pushrod preload on the lifters to see if they had .015 to .030 preload? If not do that Also did you degree the cams or line up the dots? If lined up the dots degree it now Install it so it is installed between 105 and 107 on the intake lobe center(max lobe lift at 105 to 107 after top dead center ) You have the parts needed to make real near 500 HP and over 500 Ft lbs torque Do you know how much valve spring ressure you have on the seats and opened? If so post that also What do the spark plugs look like? Can you post a picture of them? If so do that. Little things can kill the performance of a good combination, been there done that to many times Keep after it, you will make it into a real street stomper like your looking for My buddy put the heads on last time and he had to use lash caps to get a good preload. I just called him and he says he found some lash caps enough to get rid of the play. I dialed in the cam 4 degrees advanced. Sorry, no valve spring pressure figures, have no tools to measure. My buddy was experimenting with jetting when the accident occurred so the plugs are just BLACK, no pics needed. I guess you can say he was FOULING around.
Last edited by HP2; 07/07/15 04:32 AM.
70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd 70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT 71 Duster 340 71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727 72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip 78 Warlock in beautiful patina
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Re: 440 advice needed
[Re: dogdays]
#1865682
07/07/15 05:16 AM
07/07/15 05:16 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523 Right here
HP2
OP
mopar
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OP
mopar
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523
Right here
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First of all, the combination isn't that far off.
Performer RPM - great choice
Holley 850 Vacuum Secondary - Plenty of carb but not too much for a 440. If it's like almost every other 850Vac Sec carb I have read about, it needs tuning. Badly.
Comp XE275HL - Not a bad camshaft. I'd leave it in. Do take the advice to degree it in advanced. It was ground to be advanced four degrees if installed dot-to-dot and I could see going six. The advice to degree it in is right on.
2" headers - More suited for a stroker. I'd think they could be reduced in diameter to get more torque below the torque peak.
Distributor advance curve - speed it up if you're running a stock distributor. And limit the mechanical advance so you can run more initial. There is a lot of apparent power in the distributor, just waiting to be let out.
440s with open chamber heads generally do best at 38 degrees total advance.
Pistons 0.050 or so in the hole - this is typical for a higher performance 440 piston. Only the SixPack L2355F piston would be higher. I agree with JRR.....Don't cut the block 0.050. If you must cut something, cut the heads. There is no advantage to putting pistons at zero deck with an open chamber head like the 452s, or 346s, or 213s, or 906s etc. A stock 440 needs 106cc above the piston to get to 9.5:1. Your heads are probably around 92cc. There's 12 cc in the gap between the piston and top of the deck. If the engine builder bought a Fel-Pro kit with a composition gasket, that gasket can add as much as 12cc. So the engine would be somewhere around 8.7:1 right now. If it has a steel shim in it it's probably around 9.1:1. I calculate you'll need to lose 0.042" from somewhere if running the thick gasket and if running the thin gasket more like 0.020".
I'd suggest putting it together taking care of all the details and trying it with the current headers. If it still needs more poop then maybe swap for smaller header size.
There is a lot of torque hiding in tuning the cam, carb and ignition.
R. We changed our minds, we will not shave the block, we will shave the heads just like your advices here It's a better way to go, no doubt. I will carefully measure and cc and aim for 9.5:1. Will keep the RPM intake and 850 but look for a smaller carb. Will swap the headers to 1 3/4" primaries. He just bought a tti 3" x-pipe exhaust so he can get rid of that ugly 2.5" with no h-pipe he's been driving around with. Good Will also install an A/F sensor. Haven't looked for the distributor curve yet. He wants me to order a Hughes Whiplash cam, http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/produ...mp;partid=30173and I don't know what to say. I think it's too much for what he wants, I think it gonna be too rough with manual and 3.54 A rough idle sounds cool, but since he wants a low end torque monster I don't know... That cam is kinda similar to the one he had. What's your opinion on cam choice fellows?
Last edited by HP2; 07/07/15 06:52 PM.
70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd 70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT 71 Duster 340 71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727 72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip 78 Warlock in beautiful patina
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Re: 440 advice needed
[Re: JohnRR]
#1865684
07/07/15 05:28 AM
07/07/15 05:28 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523 Right here
HP2
OP
mopar
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OP
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He was lucky though, we only needed to have crank polished and change all the bearings.
Now we will have it zero decked. It has flat top pistons (don’t remember brand) and now the slugs are about .050 - .075 down the bore. Crank has been balanced some time, there's signs of that.
What do you think fellows?
If the crank and bearings were wiped what do the piston skirts and cylinder walls look like ? LOSE THE DEEP PAN , put a 70-71 hemi 6qt pan on it unless he wants this to happen again! and DO NOT ZERO DECK THE BLOCK WITH THOSE PISTONS , by the time he pays to ruin an intake and make it only ever fit that block head combo and pay to take that much off the block and the china walls he would be well on his way to the correct parts and a better running engine . As said smaller primary tube headers and a smaller CFM carb will make it more STREETABLE ... The bores still looked great, you can see the honing marks all the way around. The pistons also looked good. He was lucky. We will measure the rings to see if they are good. We will loose the deep pan. Not needed on this kind of ride. I have a windage tray I will install, I think it makes more sense.
70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd 70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT 71 Duster 340 71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727 72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip 78 Warlock in beautiful patina
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Re: 440 advice needed
[Re: HP2]
#1865781
07/07/15 11:43 AM
07/07/15 11:43 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,012 U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,012
U.S.S.A.
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We will loose the deep pan. Not needed on this kind of ride. I have a windage tray I will install, I think it makes more sense.
If it's a stock Mopar windage tray either leave it out or drill a bunch of 1/4" holes in it as it does little more than slow the return of oil to the pan.
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Re: 440 advice needed
[Re: JohnRR]
#1866014
07/07/15 06:53 PM
07/07/15 06:53 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523 Right here
HP2
OP
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OP
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We will loose the deep pan. Not needed on this kind of ride. I have a windage tray I will install, I think it makes more sense.
If it's a stock Mopar windage tray either leave it out or drill a bunch of 1/4" holes in it as it does little more than slow the return of oil to the pan. Had no idea. Thanks for the tips!
70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd 70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT 71 Duster 340 71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727 72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip 78 Warlock in beautiful patina
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Re: 440 advice needed
[Re: HP2]
#1866017
07/07/15 06:57 PM
07/07/15 06:57 PM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523 Right here
HP2
OP
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Got the measurement for the pistons now. They are only .020 below deck. We changed our minds, we will not shave the block, we will shave the heads just like your advices here smile It's a better way to go, no doubt. I will carefully measure and cc and aim for 9.5:1.
Will keep the RPM intake and 850 but look for a smaller carb. Will swap the headers to 1 3/4" primaries. He just bought a tti 3" x-pipe exhaust so he can get rid of that ugly 2.5" with no h-pipe he's been driving around with. Good smile Will also install an A/F sensor.
Haven't looked for the distributor curve yet.
He wants me to order a Hughes Whiplash cam, http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/produ...mp;partid=30173 and I don't know what to say. I think it's too much for what he wants, I think it gonna be too rough with manual and 3.54 A rough idle sounds cool, but since he wants a low end torque monster I don't know... That cam is kinda similar to the one he had. What's your opinion on cam choice fellows?
Last edited by HP2; 07/07/15 06:58 PM.
70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd 70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT 71 Duster 340 71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727 72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip 78 Warlock in beautiful patina
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Re: 440 advice needed
[Re: HP2]
#1866348
07/08/15 02:43 AM
07/08/15 02:43 AM
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 523 Right here
HP2
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We have decided to keep the Comp cam for now. Will get a new timing gear and install it 6 degrees advanced.
70 W100 Power Wagon. 318 4-spd 70 Sport Fury 440 2dr HT 71 Duster 340 71 Charger Super Bee - 383/727 72 Charger "Sabotage" - 440/727 - Street/Strip 78 Warlock in beautiful patina
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Re: 440 advice needed
[Re: HP2]
#1866466
07/08/15 11:36 AM
07/08/15 11:36 AM
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,112 New Jersey, US of A
PlumCrazy73Dodge
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 2,112
New Jersey, US of A
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You Will be amazed what proper carb tuning will do. It will crisp that motor up a lot. Its not too big as mentioned but there are a lot better street carbs out there out of the box if your not a carb guru.
73 plumcrazy challenger - 318/904, edelbrock performer 600cfm carb, performer intake and cam. Eddy Alum. Heads 3.91 locker, Doug's headers, accurate ltd. exhaust 73 Cuda - Triple Black 340 4 speed MIKE
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