440 advice needed

I’m working on a buddys car, a 71 Satellite Sebring Plus cloned to a Road Runner I sold him a couple of years ago. Lots of options makes it heavy.
440”, A833, Dana 3.54
His girlfriend was driving and the deep pan touched something but she didn't notice so she kept on driving with a smile, but without oil pressure…
He was lucky though, we only needed to have crank polished and change all the bearings.
The strange thing with this 440 is that it has never run very good. It was in the car when I got it from a member here. I have never had it out before. Over the years I have swapped heads, intakes, cams, carbs, distributors, ignition systems, cam gearing aso without being able to find the problem. Now we will have it zero decked. It has flat top pistons (don’t remember brand) and now the slugs are about .050 - .075 down the bore. Crank has been balanced some time, there's signs of that.
Right now it has an RPM intake, a Holley 850 vac, MSD6AL, MP distr., fresh 906 heads, COMP CRB10 XE275HL-10 installed after Comp’s specs, OEM rockers, 2”/3 1/2" headers (think they are tti’s)
It runs so-so. The opposite to crisp, clean and willing, no matter what I have tried. Maybe, after all, the deck height has been the issue, even if I don’t think it should have affected THAT much. Will try to get comp ratio around 9.5:1.
Now I want to try a new cam. He wants a responsible, low end character that works good with manual. I was thinking a cam
with less duration but still lots of lift and LSA.
Why not an old alu dual plane and a TQ carb? Would also like to swap those large headers to something in the 1 3/4” size so you can change plugs in less than a day.
What do you think fellows?

1 3/4 or 1 7/8 headers will bring back some low end/mid range and part throttle response.850 vacuum secondary isn't too big but a 750 with the smaller throttle bore would help the responsiveness also.
I would keep the rpm intake,any other dual plane is a step down.
That cam should be fine but you can advance it 2-4 degrees for more bottom end.
The more work on the heads(air flow)will help everything.No reason that thing shouldn't fry the tires.
Make sure the timing is right as well.

and there is a lot of power hiding in the distributor curve. you may have to weld and file the slots[depending on the brand of distributor] as well as change the weight springs, but these simple mods will sometimes turn slugs into superman status !

Several things are needed to help identify why your parts aren't making a heap of torque and HP Did you check the pushrod preload on the lifters to see if they had .015 to .030 preload? If not do that Also did you degree the cams or line up the dots? If lined up the dots degree it now Install it so it is installed between 105 and 107 on the intake lobe center(max lobe lift at 105 to 107 after top dead center ) You have the parts needed to make real near 500 HP and over 500 Ft lbs torque Do you know how much valve spring ressure you have on the seats and opened? If so post that also What do the spark plugs look like? Can you post a picture of them? If so do that. Little things can kill the performance of a good combination, been there done that to many times Keep after it, you will make it into a real street stomper like your looking for

Instead of welding and filing, a company at... www.4secondsflat.com makes and sells a nifty drop in disc with several different length slots to dial in the mechanical advance on a factory distributor. Only costs twenty bucks!

"Demon" makes a Thermoquad style carburetor, and "Hughes" cams are great if you decide to go that route.

I'd do a leakdown plus find what your cranking compression is plus idle vac/speed to get some basic info down pat. then as said determine if you have a mismatched combo (cam?). need deeper gearing maybe? AF ratio

now that is a very interesting piece indeed !

Same opinion here regarding the headers, 2" are for drag racing.
I might have a 750 vac and that would be fully enough, I agree again.
I was wrong on the heads, they are 452's.
Timing was set to 35 degrees fully advanced w/o vacuum. I know I have the curve somewhere, will look for it. I have to admit I'm not a ignition guru. I always try to have as much advance as possible without pinging...

If the crank and bearings were wiped what do the piston skirts and cylinder walls look like ?

LOSE THE DEEP PAN , put a 70-71 hemi 6qt pan on it unless he wants this to happen again!


and DO NOT ZERO DECK THE BLOCK WITH THOSE PISTONS , by the time he pays to ruin an intake and make it only ever fit that block head combo and pay to take that much off the block and the china walls he would be well on his way to the correct parts and a better running engine .

As said smaller primary tube headers and a smaller CFM carb will make it more STREETABLE ...

First of all, the combination isn't that far off.

Performer RPM - great choice

Holley 850 Vacuum Secondary - Plenty of carb but not too much for a 440. If it's like almost every other 850Vac Sec carb I have read about, it needs tuning. Badly.

Comp XE275HL - Not a bad camshaft. I'd leave it in. Do take the advice to degree it in advanced. It was ground to be advanced four degrees if installed dot-to-dot and I could see going six. The advice to degree it in is right on.

2" headers - More suited for a stroker. I'd think they could be reduced in diameter to get more torque below the torque peak.

Distributor advance curve - speed it up if you're running a stock distributor. And limit the mechanical advance so you can run more initial. There is a lot of apparent power in the distributor, just waiting to be let out.

440s with open chamber heads generally do best at 38 degrees total advance.

Pistons 0.050 or so in the hole - this is typical for a higher performance 440 piston. Only the SixPack L2355F piston would be higher. I agree with JRR.....Don't cut the block 0.050. If you must cut something, cut the heads. There is no advantage to putting pistons at zero deck with an open chamber head like the 452s, or 346s, or 213s, or 906s etc. A stock 440 needs 106cc above the piston to get to 9.5:1. Your heads are probably around 92cc. There's 12 cc in the gap between the piston and top of the deck. If the engine builder bought a Fel-Pro kit with a composition gasket, that gasket can add as much as 12cc. So the engine would be somewhere around 8.7:1 right now. If it has a steel shim in it it's probably around 9.1:1.
I calculate you'll need to lose 0.042" from somewhere if running the thick gasket and if running the thin gasket more like 0.020".

I'd suggest putting it together taking care of all the details and trying it with the current headers. If it still needs more poop then maybe swap for smaller header size.

There is a lot of torque hiding in tuning the cam, carb and ignition.

R.

My buddy put the heads on last time and he had to use lash caps to get a good preload. I just called him and he says he found some lash caps enough to get rid of the play.
I dialed in the cam 4 degrees advanced.
Sorry, no valve spring pressure figures, have no tools to measure.
My buddy was experimenting with jetting when the accident occurred so the plugs are just BLACK, no pics needed. I guess you can say he was FOULING around.

We changed our minds, we will not shave the block, we will shave the heads just like your advices here It's a better way to go, no doubt. I will carefully measure and cc and aim for 9.5:1.

Will keep the RPM intake and 850 but look for a smaller carb.
Will swap the headers to 1 3/4" primaries.
He just bought a tti 3" x-pipe exhaust so he can get rid of that ugly 2.5" with no h-pipe he's been driving around with. Good
Will also install an A/F sensor.

Haven't looked for the distributor curve yet.

He wants me to order a Hughes Whiplash cam, http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/produ...mp;partid=30173
and I don't know what to say. I think it's too much for what he wants, I think it gonna be too rough with manual and 3.54
A rough idle sounds cool, but since he wants a low end torque monster I don't know... That cam is kinda similar to the one he had.
What's your opinion on cam choice fellows?

The bores still looked great, you can see the honing marks all the way around. The pistons also looked good. He was lucky. We will measure the rings to see if they are good.

We will loose the deep pan. Not needed on this kind of ride. I have a windage tray I will install, I think it makes more sense.

If it's a stock Mopar windage tray either leave it out or drill a bunch of 1/4" holes in it as it does little more than slow the return of oil to the pan.

Had no idea. Thanks for the tips!

Got the measurement for the pistons now. They are only .020 below deck.
We changed our minds, we will not shave the block, we will shave the heads just like your advices here smile It's a better way to go, no doubt. I will carefully measure and cc and aim for 9.5:1.

Will keep the RPM intake and 850 but look for a smaller carb.
Will swap the headers to 1 3/4" primaries.
He just bought a tti 3" x-pipe exhaust so he can get rid of that ugly 2.5" with no h-pipe he's been driving around with. Good smile
Will also install an A/F sensor.

Haven't looked for the distributor curve yet.

He wants me to order a Hughes Whiplash cam, http://www.hughesengines.com/Index/produ...mp;partid=30173
and I don't know what to say. I think it's too much for what he wants, I think it gonna be too rough with manual and 3.54
A rough idle sounds cool, but since he wants a low end torque monster I don't know... That cam is kinda similar to the one he had.
What's your opinion on cam choice fellows?

We have decided to keep the Comp cam for now. Will get a new timing gear and install it 6 degrees advanced.

You Will be amazed what proper carb tuning will do. It will crisp that motor up a lot. Its not too big as mentioned but there are a lot better street carbs out there out of the box if your not a carb guru.

Personally, if the piston is only 0.020" down, I would zero deck the block.

If you do this now, you will have several nice future options for aluminum cylinder heads with quench and a decent compression ratio.

We will give that 850 another chance. Will be interesting to tune it together with the A/F meter.

We would probably have done that, but my buddy wants to get it ready and the machine shop have no time to deck it the next two weeks.

Will have the block back for the weekend, cleaned, with new bearings everywhere, checked bores and rings and ready to assemble. Both crank and cam has been polished. Hopefully a new cam gear with possibilities to get 6 degrees advance will land here too before weekend. A new high volume oil pump is already here.
Will cc the heads, and another machine shop will stand ready to mill them on Monday. Hopefully I can find a valve spring tester too.

Came to think of one thing today. My buddy mounted a hood insulation, and with the RPM intake the Twin Air top gets choked by the insulation, and the height of the filter is only 2". Do you think this might have affected the breathing..?

How much cylinder pressure can we expect this combo (with 9.5:1) have?
Well how much torque and hp would it give?

Pay attention to timing chain selection , you need to spend money to get a good one that is more adjustable and is able to use offset bushings if needed , the low cost ones will have a SLOT instead of a hole for the dowel pin , good luck drilling a hole for the bushing.

Update:
Same Comp cam went back in. My buddy is a little cheap so he bought MrGasket offset bushings and I drilled the cam gear so much I could and put in a 6 degree bushing and got 102.5 degrees centerline, 3.5 degrees advanced from 106 (this means that the cam was installed 2.5 degrees retarded and that explains a little). Had wished for 5-6 degrees advance but I couldn't get more with this cheap crap.
Shaved the heads .020 and got 10.17:1
Still no adjustable rockers so preload is hard to measure. All I can say is that is is very little preload. Hope he can spend a little on used steel rockers some day.
Painted engine bay yesterday and will paint the engine today and, hopefully, will get it in so I can install the exhaust and get it running by Wednesday.

Should be no lash with a hydraulic cam. So what are you meaning to say?

R.

Did I say lash? It should be preload, sorry!