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Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: B3RE] #1835801
05/28/15 06:54 AM
05/28/15 06:54 AM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline
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At least that is the newer castings with the extra material above the intake ports. I ended up using PAC 1326 valve springs with thinner valve spring locators (I think 0.030") that PAC milled for us, plus the +0.100" PAC Ti retainers, standard locks, and lash caps. Using the max wedge rocker shaft blocks we just set the shaft height where it looked OK, but it would have been nice to have the offset like shown here.

I have some photos, but need to figure how to post them?

Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: GTS340] #1835802
05/28/15 06:56 AM
05/28/15 06:56 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quicktree Offline
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Originally Posted By GTS340
Very nice work Mike!
Seems like I remember a certain genius member calling your product "snake oil" and saying that your attention to detail on rocker geometry offers no benefit, I wonder what his view would be on this specific application.
and I still do thank you very much, this is an excellent thread and has nothing to do with what you described genius. why anyone would want to go through this is beyond me. they missed the boat on the design imo. great thread Mike this is what we need not some holier than thou attitude. up

Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: B3RE] #1835804
05/28/15 07:43 AM
05/28/15 07:43 AM
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 3,082
St. Paul , Mn.
tubtar Offline
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You didn't mention it , so I am guessing it isn't an issue , but I got curious.
Push rod clearance ?
Moving better than 1/4 " upward coupled with the offset has to have changed things there.
yea ? nay ?

Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: 451Mopar] #1835821
05/28/15 09:39 AM
05/28/15 09:39 AM
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USA
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Originally Posted By 451Mopar
At least that is the newer castings with the extra material above the intake ports. I ended up using PAC 1326 valve springs with thinner valve spring locators (I think 0.030") that PAC milled for us, plus the +0.100" PAC Ti retainers, standard locks, and lash caps. Using the max wedge rocker shaft blocks we just set the shaft height where it looked OK, but it would have been nice to have the offset like shown here.

I have some photos, but need to figure how to post them?
I wish they would have had more material above the ports. It would have made things a little easier than trying to cram everything onto that little stand boss.

I'd love to see your pics. Below the post window, click "File Manager"-then "Browse"-then "Add File"-then "Done Adding Files". That will load files from your computer. Not sure about from a phone.


Mike Beachel

I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: Quicktree] #1835829
05/28/15 09:56 AM
05/28/15 09:56 AM
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Posts: 561
USA
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Originally Posted By Quicktree
Originally Posted By GTS340
Very nice work Mike!
Seems like I remember a certain genius member calling your product "snake oil" and saying that your attention to detail on rocker geometry offers no benefit, I wonder what his view would be on this specific application.
and I still do thank you very much, this is an excellent thread and has nothing to do with what you described genius. why anyone would want to go through this is beyond me. they missed the boat on the design imo. great thread Mike this is what we need not some holier than thou attitude. up

Thanks Quicktree!
You know, you're just the kind of guy who begs to have his chops busted whenever we get the chance. We just can't help ourselves. grin beer

Seriously though, I am glad Mopar guys are starting to pay more attention to this stuff. I was at my home track this weekend talking to some racers I've known for thirty years. I had asked a husband and wife couple last year about their valvetrain, and the answer was "Nope, no problem here". I talked to them Saturday, asked how the cars were running, how they were holding up, and I get "Well, we blew up the 408 this spring, and broke the valvetrain twice" (HS, by the way). They're not so sure there isn't a problem anymore, especially since the broken valvetrain is what blew the motor. I'm pretty sure I'll be hearing from them.


Mike Beachel

I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: tubtar] #1835833
05/28/15 10:01 AM
05/28/15 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted By tubtar
You didn't mention it , so I am guessing it isn't an issue , but I got curious.
Push rod clearance ?
Moving better than 1/4 " upward coupled with the offset has to have changed things there.
yea ? nay ?

Good call! It could very well need some massaging, and I informed both the customer and the builder of that fact. I told them clearancing was their responsibility, since I wasn't building the motor. I wasn't removing material, unless I knew it needed to be removed. The final offset was only .085", so it probably won't take much, if any.


Mike Beachel

I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: CSK] #1835837
05/28/15 10:10 AM
05/28/15 10:10 AM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
USA
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B3RE Offline OP
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Originally Posted By csk
very good work!!!!!

Thank you!
I hope you got through all of the flooding ok. Katy is all but what, 10 miles, from Houston. I heard they got hammered.


Mike Beachel

I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: B3RE] #1835843
05/28/15 10:32 AM
05/28/15 10:32 AM
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 685
pennsylvania
poboyengineering Offline
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I just re-read the tech write-ups on your website for about the 10th time, and feel like I am finally getting a handle on what you're saying.
If I'm right, then with a cam (lift) change, won't the fulcrum point on the rocker need to be re-calculated and corrected since the perpendicularity will be at a different point?


It may be ugly, but it sure is slow.

Girls comb their hair in rear view mirrors and the boys try to look so hard....
Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: poboyengineering] #1835851
05/28/15 10:41 AM
05/28/15 10:41 AM
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Posts: 561
USA
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Originally Posted By poboyengineering
I just re-read the tech write-ups on your website for about the 10th time, and feel like I am finally getting a handle on what you're saying.
If I'm right, then with a cam (lift) change, won't the fulcrum point on the rocker need to be re-calculated and corrected since the perpendicularity will be at a different point?

That's correct, Tom. Valvetrain geometry is not just the rocker arm, or the valve length, or the valve lift. Everything in the valvetrain plays a role. This is one of the points I've being making for a long time. Unless it is dead stock, something will have to change for it to be perfect.


Mike Beachel

I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: CSK] #1835878
05/28/15 11:21 AM
05/28/15 11:21 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,317
Ohio
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jlatessa Offline
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Ohio
I have a question on how the geometry changes from a 1.5 ratio to other higher ones.

It would seem that the length from shaft centerline to valve tip
has to be the same, does the distance from shaft centerline to pushrod
cup shrink or are there other geometric changes??

Am thinking of Victors for our 512 build, but with std. ratio rockers (Hughs) and a low .600 lift roller

Some of these threads are raising the hairs on the back of my neck!!

Thanks for the educational inputs....Joe


Last edited by jlatessa; 05/28/15 12:26 PM.
Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: Quicktree] #1835899
05/28/15 12:18 PM
05/28/15 12:18 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 403
Romulus, MI
GTS340 Offline
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Romulus, MI
Originally Posted By Quicktree
Originally Posted By GTS340
Very nice work Mike!
Seems like I remember a certain genius member calling your product "snake oil" and saying that your attention to detail on rocker geometry offers no benefit, I wonder what his view would be on this specific application.
and I still do thank you very much, this is an excellent thread and has nothing to do with what you described genius.


Nothing to do with it? Oh really? Please do explain!
What Mike does is correct rocker arm GEOMETRY by relocating the rocker shaft to a position where it needs to be while accounting for certain variables i.e. installed valve stem height, rocker arm fulcrum length, net valve lift, and I'm sure several other things... The machined rocker shaft saddles in the head are not a "one location fits all" nor do all rocker arms have the same fulcrum length, whether he gets there by making new shaft stands or making shaft relocation kits the goal and end result is the same! While in this case the stackup of all these variables was obviously extreme, just bolting a shaft rocker system to the stands in the head will be less than ideal, way too many variables for the shaft location to be correct.
Comprende Pythagoras??

Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: B3RE] #1835943
05/28/15 01:12 PM
05/28/15 01:12 PM
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Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Originally Posted By B3RE
Originally Posted By BradH
Jeez, that's a he11uva lot of work to get that combination straightened out.

My stock-valve (Edelbrock supplied) Victors w/ the Hughes rockers didn't look nearly that jacked up when I mocked 'em up. Mine are set up for a 1.900" installed height using ti retainers and +.050" locks.

I'll still look for what they'd need to optimize the geometry, though.
It was a lot of work, but they were for an 8 sec., 10.5 tire car. The builder wanted the best that the customer could afford.

I'd be willing to bet yours are still off a good bit, even at 1.900", but like Jeremiah's Victors with Hughes rockers, it should be a lot less work. It just doesn't make sense to spend a lot of money on good parts, and then not have them set up correctly.

I'll need to put it back together again soon and see where things are per the instructions you sent me. One of the next things I need are new custom-length pushrods, and I only want to order those once. hammer

Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: B3RE] #1835953
05/28/15 01:26 PM
05/28/15 01:26 PM
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CA
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Yep, all the same fulcrum lengths...


Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: GTS340] #1835955
05/28/15 01:31 PM
05/28/15 01:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 32,394
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Quicktree Offline
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Originally Posted By GTS340
Originally Posted By Quicktree
Originally Posted By GTS340
Very nice work Mike!
Seems like I remember a certain genius member calling your product "snake oil" and saying that your attention to detail on rocker geometry offers no benefit, I wonder what his view would be on this specific application.
and I still do thank you very much, this is an excellent thread and has nothing to do with what you described genius.


Nothing to do with it? Oh really? Please do explain!
What Mike does is correct rocker arm GEOMETRY by relocating the rocker shaft to a position where it needs to be while accounting for certain variables i.e. installed valve stem height, rocker arm fulcrum length, net valve lift, and I'm sure several other things... The machined rocker shaft saddles in the head are not a "one location fits all" nor do all rocker arms have the same fulcrum length, whether he gets there by making new shaft stands or making shaft relocation kits the goal and end result is the same! While in this case the stackup of all these variables was obviously extreme, just bolting a shaft rocker system to the stands in the head will be less than ideal, way too many variables for the shaft location to be correct.
Comprende Pythagoras??
lol how did you that pic laugh2 that was after chasing sixpackgut around all day I believe. I know what he does and have no problem with it. the problem is when he first came on here there was some claim to adding horse power by a simple correction. and my offer still stands just like the one with our newly found carb guru. you make claim back it up. I will still wager that he can correct mine from where they are now and you would see little gain if any. I set mine up just like have done for nearly 40 years and I get more than my fair share of passes. I know the geometry is off it's always been off. long before correction part were available.

Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: B3RE] #1835959
05/28/15 01:38 PM
05/28/15 01:38 PM
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Posts: 32,394
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Quicktree Offline
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again Mike thanks for this post, after seeing this I would not consider a victor head. why anyone would want to is beyond me if they are all like that.

Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: crackedback] #1835972
05/28/15 01:57 PM
05/28/15 01:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Originally Posted By crackedback
Yep, all the same fulcrum lengths...


At least you could give AndyF credit for that photo...

Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: Quicktree] #1835974
05/28/15 01:58 PM
05/28/15 01:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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BradH Offline
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Originally Posted By Quicktree
... after seeing this I would not consider a victor head. why anyone would want to is beyond me if they are all like that.

Hey, they're no more effed up than my MP Stages were! laugh2

Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: Quicktree] #1835975
05/28/15 02:01 PM
05/28/15 02:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
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Val-haul-ass... eventually
Originally Posted By Quicktree

Hey, Sleepy! Where were the other six Dwarfs? grin

Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: Quicktree] #1835987
05/28/15 02:20 PM
05/28/15 02:20 PM
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Posts: 561
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Originally Posted By Quicktree
Originally Posted By GTS340
Originally Posted By Quicktree
Originally Posted By GTS340
Very nice work Mike!
Seems like I remember a certain genius member calling your product "snake oil" and saying that your attention to detail on rocker geometry offers no benefit, I wonder what his view would be on this specific application.
and I still do thank you very much, this is an excellent thread and has nothing to do with what you described genius.


Nothing to do with it? Oh really? Please do explain!
What Mike does is correct rocker arm GEOMETRY by relocating the rocker shaft to a position where it needs to be while accounting for certain variables i.e. installed valve stem height, rocker arm fulcrum length, net valve lift, and I'm sure several other things... The machined rocker shaft saddles in the head are not a "one location fits all" nor do all rocker arms have the same fulcrum length, whether he gets there by making new shaft stands or making shaft relocation kits the goal and end result is the same! While in this case the stackup of all these variables was obviously extreme, just bolting a shaft rocker system to the stands in the head will be less than ideal, way too many variables for the shaft location to be correct.
Comprende Pythagoras??
lol how did you that pic laugh2 that was after chasing sixpackgut around all day I believe. I know what he does and have no problem with it. the problem is when he first came on here there was some claim to adding horse power by a simple correction. and my offer still stands just like the one with our newly found carb guru. you make claim back it up. I will still wager that he can correct mine from where they are now and you would see little gain if any. I set mine up just like have done for nearly 40 years and I get more than my fair share of passes. I know the geometry is off it's always been off. long before correction part were available.

Ok fellas, let's try to be productive here. laugh2
Quicktree, I won't make you any guarantees, other than it will be right. Try calling a cam company and getting a guarantee that their cam will make more power than what you've already got.

For what it's worth, I've never had a kit returned for not doing what is was supposed to do. I had a member here return one because he didn't want to clearance the heads for his 3/8" pushrods. 5/16" would have cleared, and he would have been better off using them, than loading up the motor with more spring. That was the one an only kit that was ever returned.

Considering that some pretty big names in the Mopar world have used my kits, or recommended them to their customers, I'd say they have a pretty good track record.


Mike Beachel

I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
Re: Another Edelbrock Victor Saga [Re: BradH] #1835992
05/28/15 02:25 PM
05/28/15 02:25 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 561
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Originally Posted By BradH
Originally Posted By Quicktree
... after seeing this I would not consider a victor head. why anyone would want to is beyond me if they are all like that.

Hey, they're no more effed up than my MP Stages were! laugh2

Yeah, it's not the heads fault. If you want the geometry right and run a lot of lift, you're going to have to do something, no matter what head you run. Btw, when did competitive racing not require customized work?


Mike Beachel

I didn't write the rules of math nor create the laws of physics, I am just bound by them.
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