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Re: Rebuilt Engine - Brass flakes in oil
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1780022
03/15/15 09:13 PM
03/15/15 09:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,424
UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
NITROUSN
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,424
UPPER MICHIGAN, MARQUETTE COUN...
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Quote:
I believe what you're seeing is exhaust valve rotators, tipicaLLY USED ON TRUCK AND rv ENGINES.
tHE SPRINGS ARE ALL THE SAME.
The springs are not all the same. The exhaust springs with rotators are a different size and have pressure differences.
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Re: Rebuilt Engine - Brass flakes in oil
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1780023
03/15/15 09:22 PM
03/15/15 09:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
Sport440
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,591
Canton, Ohio
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Quote:
But don't think the shims are brass, brass colored yes but not brass.
Not sure myself,, ---- I have some, just checked, they are steel with a copper or brass like colored coating.
Not nearly enough to cause the amount of flakes in the filter. Must be bearing material in the filter.
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Re: Rebuilt Engine - Brass flakes in oil
[Re: NITROUSN]
#1780024
03/15/15 09:49 PM
03/15/15 09:49 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
I believe what you're seeing is exhaust valve rotators, tipicaLLY USED ON TRUCK AND rv ENGINES.
tHE SPRINGS ARE ALL THE SAME.
The springs are not all the same. The exhaust springs with rotators are a different size and have pressure differences.
I stand corrected, I think the exhaust springs have slightly shorter installed height because the rotators are thicker.
I not familer with magnum heads like the OP has. I have rebuilt 2 360s that had them in a RV and a hd work van. This was in the early 80s and my memory is not crystal clear. I installed RV cams in both engines and used the springs that came with the cams and both motors ran for more than 10 years after. A small RV cam don't have enough lift to cause coil bind using the rotators with all the same springs on the motors I rebuilt. I drove one for over 100K miles after my boss drove the van for 200K miles before I got it with fresh heads and a RV cam.
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Re: Rebuilt Engine - Brass flakes in oil
[Re: Challenger 1]
#1780026
03/15/15 10:19 PM
03/15/15 10:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 156
San Diego
Instigate
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 156
San Diego
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I believe what you're seeing is exhaust valve rotators, tipicaLLY USED ON TRUCK AND rv ENGINES.
tHE SPRINGS ARE ALL THE SAME.
The springs are not all the same. The exhaust springs with rotators are a different size and have pressure differences.
I stand corrected, I think the exhaust springs have slightly shorter installed height because the rotators are thicker.
I not familer with magnum heads like the OP has. I have rebuilt 2 360s that had them in a RV and a hd work van. This was in the early 80s and my memory is not crystal clear. I installed RV cams in both engines and used the springs that came with the cams and both motors ran for more than 10 years after. A small RV cam don't have enough lift to cause coil bind using the rotators with all the same springs on the motors I rebuilt. I drove one for over 100K miles after my boss drove the van for 200K miles before I got it with fresh heads and a RV cam.
I don't have magnum heads..
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Re: Rebuilt Engine - Brass flakes in oil
[Re: Instigate]
#1780027
03/15/15 10:46 PM
03/15/15 10:46 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I believe what you're seeing is exhaust valve rotators, tipicaLLY USED ON TRUCK AND rv ENGINES.
tHE SPRINGS ARE ALL THE SAME.
The springs are not all the same. The exhaust springs with rotators are a different size and have pressure differences.
I stand corrected, I think the exhaust springs have slightly shorter installed height because the rotators are thicker.
I not familer with magnum heads like the OP has. I have rebuilt 2 360s that had them in a RV and a hd work van. This was in the early 80s and my memory is not crystal clear. I installed RV cams in both engines and used the springs that came with the cams and both motors ran for more than 10 years after. A small RV cam don't have enough lift to cause coil bind using the rotators with all the same springs on the motors I rebuilt. I drove one for over 100K miles after my boss drove the van for 200K miles before I got it with fresh heads and a RV cam.
I don't have magnum heads..
Noted.
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Re: Rebuilt Engine - Brass flakes in oil
[Re: sportfury70]
#1780028
03/16/15 12:34 AM
03/16/15 12:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,699
Newport, Mi
Evil Spirit
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,699
Newport, Mi
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Quote:
In the picture where looking down @ the bushing, it looks like it is worn on the face. The intermediate shafts looks shiny under gear as if the two were rubbing together. May be just the picture though.
The two should rub together - it's designed to be a wear surface.
That bushing has 2 functions:
(1) to keep the intermediate shaft centerline the correct distance from the cam centerline, so the gears tooth mesh is the correct depth.
(2) To support the intermediate shaft - the rotation of the cam, the pitch of the teeth, and the resistance of the oil pump push the intermediate shaft down onto the bushing.
If the bushing isn't seated fully - when the distributor is tightened down, it could force the intermediate shaft down onto the bushing with excessive pressure, and gall it before it has a chance to break in. It can also break the nylon(?) bushing at the bottom of the dist housing that keeps the dist shaft engaged into the intermediate shaft.
As to the spring seat insert damage. Single valve spring's inserts are usually only damaged by valve float letting the spring bounce around. With multiple springs, they get damaged by valve float, or because the multiple springs rotate in different directions when compressed, and require hardened seat inserts and retainers because of the resulting wear. Since VSI and other insert makers list specific hardened inserts for performance apps, I would guess that the stock ones are somewhat softer. I've seen inserts listed in catalogs as "copper" before, but it didn't specify if that was referring to color or material. 
Free advice and worth every penny...
Factory trained Slinky rewinder.........
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Re: Rebuilt Engine - Brass flakes in oil
[Re: Evil Spirit]
#1780029
03/16/15 02:35 AM
03/16/15 02:35 AM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
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It was noted by the OP that the oil was black within the 40 miles put on the vehicle. Nothing says burnt oil than to tight of tolerances. The intermediate bushing might not have been seated completely,wear is shown in the picture . Might be some of the brass, probably wouldn't turn the oil black. I would look at the bearings. Good luck with the engine builder. The building of a engine , any engine requires knowledge of tolerances, and proper assembly, it doesn't matter if it is a Chevy, Ford, Mopar or Briggs&Stratton . There's know excuse nowadays with the internet, you can look up anything you need to know, even proper rocker arm assembly. So with that being said, if you did all the right things upon startup and the engine still took a $hit be prepared . Write down everything you found wrong right off and made the engine builder aware of. What you did to correct the problems. Did you follow correct priming and break in procedures. Who told you what to do and how to do it.  
it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
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Re: Rebuilt Engine - Brass flakes in oil
[Re: rowin4]
#1780030
03/16/15 04:25 AM
03/16/15 04:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 156
San Diego
Instigate
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 156
San Diego
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Quote:
It was noted by the OP that the oil was black within the 40 miles put on the vehicle. Nothing says burnt oil than to tight of tolerances. The intermediate bushing might not have been seated completely,wear is shown in the picture . Might be some of the brass, probably wouldn't turn the oil black. I would look at the bearings. Good luck with the engine builder. The building of a engine , any engine requires knowledge of tolerances, and proper assembly, it doesn't matter if it is a Chevy, Ford, Mopar or Briggs&Stratton . There's know excuse nowadays with the internet, you can look up anything you need to know, even proper rocker arm assembly. So with that being said, if you did all the right things upon startup and the engine still took a $hit be prepared . Write down everything you found wrong right off and made the engine builder aware of. What you did to correct the problems. Did you follow correct priming and break in procedures. Who told you what to do and how to do it.
Yes I followed all proper procedures. RapidRobert on here informed me on the best way to prime the engine. The engine builder told me to just put oil in the oil pump and don't bother priming it but I went ahead and did the priming procedure. I also got break in advice from Robert and others on here and on RamChargerCentral. I also did my own research online. But what I was being told was the standard stuff. I followed every instruction to the tee. This might be the first engine I've broken in, but I'm no stranger to automotive technology. I've been working doing mechanic work for 3 years, and a year of school before that. Not a huge amount of time but enough.
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post8401865
Last edited by Instigate; 03/16/15 04:30 AM.
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Re: Rebuilt Engine - Brass flakes in oil
[Re: Instigate]
#1780032
03/16/15 05:38 PM
03/16/15 05:38 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,013
South Park, Pa.
68LAR
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,013
South Park, Pa.
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Something to think about... A machine shop machinist doesn't make him an engine builder... Definitely two different mechanics that are not always the same.... Take it back to the machine shop and have them make right the damage and find yourself an engine builder to assemble it, or do it yourself, if you have that ability....
4 speed street legal. Best time 10.99 @ 124 mph on 93 octane pump gas @ 3926# total weight
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Re: Rebuilt Engine - Brass flakes in oil
[Re: Instigate]
#1780033
03/16/15 05:43 PM
03/16/15 05:43 PM
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
gdonovan
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 10,847
Oakdale CT
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My advice? Pull it.
Usually when something like this happens there is never a happy ending. Bite the bullet and yank it out and investigate.
"I think its got a hemi"
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Re: Rebuilt Engine - Brass flakes in oil
[Re: gdonovan]
#1780035
03/16/15 10:05 PM
03/16/15 10:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 156
San Diego
Instigate
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 156
San Diego
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Quote:
Something to think about...
A machine shop machinist doesn't make him an engine builder... Definitely two different mechanics that are not always the same....
Take it back to the machine shop and have them make right the damage and find yourself an engine builder to assemble it, or do it yourself, if you have that ability....
I've only done one full rebuild of an engine and that was in school. But I bet I could do it. It's just the time. I'm sure it would take me longer to do it being that I've only done one before. But the thing is, I've already paid $1400 to have it done. I'm not going to pay someone else to do the job I've already paid one person to do. They're going to have to fix whatever they messed up.
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Re: Rebuilt Engine - Brass flakes in oil
[Re: Instigate]
#1780037
03/16/15 11:19 PM
03/16/15 11:19 PM
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,234
Looking for a way out of Middl...
IMGTX
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 12,234
Looking for a way out of Middl...
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It sounds like the mains or rods ate the big one. I know you feel like they should rebuild it since they messed it up, but if they didn't do it right the first time will they do it right next time or just slap a patch on it. It needs torn down, meticulously cleaned, and all new bearings, including cam bearings. The bores are probably OK but I wouldn't reuse the rings. You will need to clean all the rocker shaft components and the shafts just in case any of that brass made it into those areas. If they are telling you to run it a little more then I doubt they will take the time to clean it well enough and replace all the parts that may have embedded particles in them. Sorry for the trouble.  Hope they make it right.
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Re: Rebuilt Engine - Brass flakes in oil
[Re: Supercuda]
#1780039
03/17/15 12:06 AM
03/17/15 12:06 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,316
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,316
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
Quote:
What could I have done to be sitting here with a good running motor
Not much you could have done, did what you could.
Funny that you would actually believe that after getting a motor back from a shop and discovering that the entire valve train is installed incorrectly, and the freeze plugs leak, that common sense would not lead you to check the bearings.
Sure the OP did not do anything wrong. Unfortunately, it looks like he will either get his money back, or the same shop will fix this motor, and likely not without some anguish. Hardly a good outcome.
Honestly, good luck to the OP.
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Re: Rebuilt Engine - Brass flakes in oil
[Re: BSB67]
#1780040
03/17/15 01:35 AM
03/17/15 01:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 156
San Diego
Instigate
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Jan 2015
Posts: 156
San Diego
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What could I have done to be sitting here with a good running motor
Not much you could have done, did what you could.
Funny that you would actually believe that after getting a motor back from a shop and discovering that the entire valve train is installed incorrectly, and the freeze plugs leak, that common sense would not lead you to check the bearings.
Sure the OP did not do anything wrong. Unfortunately, it looks like he will either get his money back, or the same shop will fix this motor, and likely not without some anguish. Hardly a good outcome.
Honestly, good luck to the OP.
lol?
Quote:
Instigate, document EVERYTHING (you've already started), make a journal of all conversations/visits to the shop. KEEP the oil filter!!!
Then, if they continue to offer nothing,start taking your pictures around to other builders and solicit their recommendations---most, if not all will be quotes to correct the issues.
I predict you are heading to small claims court (that's a GOOD thing cause someone else is gonna fix your mill) and I predict a judge will quickly award the full $1400 back to you. Just my three cents.
For sure. I've been taking pictures all the way. And it's all documented on this board and RCC. So I can go back and remember what happened. I can totally see them trying to weasel out of this.
Quote:
It sounds like the mains or rods ate the big one.
I know you feel like they should rebuild it since they messed it up, but if they didn't do it right the first time will they do it right next time or just slap a patch on it.
It needs torn down, meticulously cleaned, and all new bearings, including cam bearings. The bores are probably OK but I wouldn't reuse the rings. You will need to clean all the rocker shaft components and the shafts just in case any of that brass made it into those areas.
If they are telling you to run it a little more then I doubt they will take the time to clean it well enough and replace all the parts that may have embedded particles in them.
Sorry for the trouble.
Hope they make it right.
I know it. I know it. I do NOT feel good about taking it back to those idiots. But like I said before, I don't have the money to just pay someone else to do this job I've already paid for and I don't have the luxury of time to do it myself. If time wasn't a factor I would have done it all myself and just had the machine work sub'd. So unfortunately I feel like I have no choice but to run it some more like the fool says and when I change the oil again and it's the same they're going to have to rebuild it. And all I can do i hope that they care enough about it not coming back to do it right. I realize in their mind they're trying to get it out with loosing as little money as possible and yes, they will try to cut corners. But what can I do? If I don't do as they suggest it would hurt my case I think. I want to be able to say I tried to let them resolve it.
Quote:
Only go to TJ to get your vinyl top replaced, not to get an engine rebuilt. Sorry to see the trouble you're having. I've been through the same thing 25 years ago, live and learn.
San Diego is not TJ..
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