|
Re: Big Ports, Big Flow #s, And Low Duration Camshafts
[Re: BradH]
#1727940
01/14/15 03:07 PM
01/14/15 03:07 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
|
I am building a 10.5-1 520" with Indy EZ 295 Cnc's, Bullet hydraulic roller 252/258 .622 lift w/ 1.6's, 110lsa and Indy dual plane intake. Going in a heavy street car. Havnt dynoed it yet, but hopefully in the next month or two. This topic got me thinking that I might be a little undercammed/over headed...Any thoughts??
2 kids and a dog
|
|
|
Re: Big Ports, Big Flow #s, And Low Duration Camshafts
[Re: 67mprfan]
#1727943
01/15/15 01:35 PM
01/15/15 01:35 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
|
Quote:
Quote:
I am building a 10.5-1 520" with Indy EZ 295 Cnc's, Bullet hydraulic roller 252/258 .622 lift w/ 1.6's, 110lsa and Indy dual plane intake. Going in a heavy street car. Havnt dynoed it yet, but hopefully in the next month or two. This topic got me thinking that I might be a little undercammed/over headed...Any thoughts??
can you post your dyno results when you get them 
Yes, I will post the results. Good or bad!
2 kids and a dog
|
|
|
Re: Big Ports, Big Flow #s, And Low Duration Camshafts
[Re: TonyS451]
#1727944
01/15/15 01:59 PM
01/15/15 01:59 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
|
Tony,
I think you'll be fine.
Similar to my old 508 combo...Paul ( PHJ426 the guy who bought that motor from me) put a hydraulic flat tappet in place of the 252/258 HR and he's busting new ZL1 Camaros with it. in a 4200 pound 72 roadrunner....and that's with a lot less head than you have on yours.
Just be sure to do some radiusing of mainly the lower 1/2 plenum (Cyls 1-4-6 and 7) to runner transitions in the 440-2d manifold, there's a lot of cfm (and maybe 20hp potential flow) you leave on the table if you don't do it. not really needed with 906 size ports but definitely needed if you're feeding a max wedge.
So are they EZ 295's or the EZ-1's? I would definitely open them (both the heads and the manifold) up to MW if you haven't already, there's only upside to go max wedge at 520 cubes.
I run a 264/268@.050 Bullet HR on my 517 on 108 in at 102 with the Max Wedge Chapmans at 12:1.
Last edited by Streetwize; 01/15/15 02:11 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Big Ports, Big Flow #s, And Low Duration Camshafts
[Re: BradH]
#1727945
01/15/15 02:46 PM
01/15/15 02:46 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,260
Las Vegas NV
moparmanjames
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,260
Las Vegas NV
|
Quote:
Quote:
Head flow is king, period. If you've got a good set of heads you will make power.
It's not that simple...
Not that simple but it's a damn good start. I'm just thankful that we have a few decent flowing big block wedge heads to choose from. Big block Hemi's are crazy expensive for the average mopar guy, I mean $2500 for a rocker arm setup? The new Hemi's are a blessing but I wish they would make a big block version.
|
|
|
Re: Big Ports, Big Flow #s, And Low Duration Camshafts
[Re: R5P7 Bantam]
#1727946
01/15/15 03:01 PM
01/15/15 03:01 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,260
Las Vegas NV
moparmanjames
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 1,260
Las Vegas NV
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What controls velocity?
Piston speed and port/runner shape. In essence, the geometric profile (tube) in which the air travels to the base of the valve head. This geometric shape starts at the top of the intake manifold (carb plate) and some may include the shape of the venturi's w/in the carb/throttle body.
This is the response I see most often on the internet.
How about valve events and ramp rates?
Valve timing events are critical. We can get really in depth with this if you like......but for now we'll just keep it basic. As the piston lowers in the cylinder, it "pulls" on the intake port as the valve is opening (the scavenging effect). Just before the piston reaches BDC, the intake valve should close (tightly) thus getting the max cylinder volume of charge (air and fuel). It is very possible to actually achieve more than one atmosphere during this operation w/o forced induction. Then the piston goes up and down, and on the following up stroke it "pushes" the fired charge out the exhaust port.....But, this is where it gets good!!!! The velocity in which it travels out the exhaust while the intake begins to open (split overlap) can actually create a negative charge on the intake chamber thus pulling in the new fuel charge at a greater velocity that standard flow (ie, form of forced inducing). This fills the cylinder as the piston drops and......we're at the beginning. But, possibly more than one atmosphere of volume inn the cylinder = VE approaching and exceeding 100%.
Pretty good info in general but more often than not with a performance cam, the cam will hold the intake valve open past bottom dead center to get maximum fill.
Edit: looks like Cogito covered this on the previous page, sorry for the rehash
Last edited by moparmanjames; 01/15/15 03:16 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Big Ports, Big Flow #s, And Low Duration Camshafts
[Re: Streetwize]
#1727947
01/15/15 03:03 PM
01/15/15 03:03 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
TonyS451
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,296
Chicago, IL
|
Quote:
Tony,
I think you'll be fine.
Similar to my old 508 combo...Paul ( PHJ426 the guy who bought that motor from me) put a hydraulic flat tappet in place of the 252/258 HR and he's busting new ZL1 Camaros with it. in a 4200 pound 72 roadrunner....and that's with a lot less head than you have on yours.
Just be sure to do some radiusing of mainly the lower 1/2 plenum (Cyls 1-4-6 and 7) to runner transitions in the 440-2d manifold, there's a lot of cfm (and maybe 20hp potential flow) you leave on the table if you don't do it. not really needed with 906 size ports but definitely needed if you're feeding a max wedge.
So are they EZ 295's or the EZ-1's? I would definitely open them (both the heads and the manifold) up to MW if you haven't already, there's only upside to go max wedge at 520 cubes.
I run a 264/268@.050 Bullet HR on my 517 on 108 in at 102 with the Max Wedge Chapmans at 12:1.
Thank Bobby. My heads are the Max wedge CNC 295's from Indy and then given the once over, hand blend as needed and valve job by Dwayne Porter. The intake is the one AndyF used on his dyno mule and is also opened up to max wedge ports. I don't think any additional work was done to it other than port match. Btw, the cam I am running was actually a regrind of a comp cam I had. It was originally a 242/.555 110. Bullet agreed the Comp cam was a bit small, and said the regrind specs would be a better cam for my combination. However they did say I am still leaving a lot on the table...If I really wanted to make the most power possible, I would need a much rowdier solid roller, single plane, dominator, etc. Of course I already knew that.
Bobby, did you ever dyno your Chapman engine? Any chance you have pics of what you did to the intake?
2 kids and a dog
|
|
|
Re: Big Ports, Big Flow #s, And Low Duration Camshafts
[Re: TonyS451]
#1727948
01/15/15 03:53 PM
01/15/15 03:53 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
|
Planning to chassis dyno the 517 in the spring and hopefully (if time allows) do some manifold/carb/ignition testing as well.
I was gonna say if you want to send me your manifold I could radius it for you, the turn from the vertical plenum wall to the runners in both the front and back is a bit too sharp, work the corners for a more gentle turn both down and then out towards the ports. you don't really need to enlarge the ports themselves beyond the plenum,
I wouldn't even try doing that because the roof of the lower is the floor of the upper and the casting is pretty thin between them. Plenty of meat where I'm referring to though.
Beyond that I also enlarged both plenum halves and took the divider down a bit more. I run a 1000CFM Pro-Systems carb on it, it's very responsive, but tough to get it to hook, even taking off in second and I shift it at 6800.
|
|
|
Re: Big Ports, Big Flow #s, And Low Duration Camshafts
[Re: moparmanjames]
#1727949
01/15/15 05:15 PM
01/15/15 05:15 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
|
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Head flow is king, period. If you've got a good set of heads you will make power.
It's not that simple...
Not that simple but it's a damn good start.
Only if other key things are taken into account. Just because you've got a "good set of heads" that flow well doesn't mean they're the right set of heads for an application.
Put a set of 350cc ported Indy 440-1s on a stock-stroke 400 and you'll have a gutless pig below about 5500 and needs to rev to 8000 to even come close to making the heads "work". Not my idea of a good combination...
I'll take an "OK" set of heads for the right application over a "good set" of heads for the wrong one.
(And this is what results when some people make really generic - and flawed - statements that more detail-specific people take exception to.  )
|
|
|
Re: Big Ports, Big Flow #s, And Low Duration Camshafts
[Re: BradH]
#1727950
01/15/15 05:41 PM
01/15/15 05:41 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
|
Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Head flow is king, period. If you've got a good set of heads you will make power.
It's not that simple...
Not that simple but it's a damn good start.
Only if other key things are taken into account. Just because you've got a "good set of heads" that flow well doesn't mean they're the right set of heads for an application.
Put a set of 350cc ported Indy 440-1s on a stock-stroke 400 and you'll have a gutless pig below about 5500 and needs to rev to 8000 to even come close to making the heads "work". Not my idea of a good combination...
I'll take an "OK" set of heads for the right application over a "good set" of heads for the wrong one.
(And this is what results when some people make really generic - and flawed - statements that more detail-specific people take exception to. )
didn't the Brown Sugar car have small cubes with B1 heads and was extremely fast to the point that people thought he was spraying?? I think its more about the combo and and since I'm a street guy I prefer a smaller port but on a race car then I would say Big Heads
this just reminded me of, me and Quicktree went to the PRI show together. there was a set of BB edelbrocks RPM heads next to 360-1 Indy heads and Quick started laughing at the port size of the BB heads and how small the port was. I was at that point ashamed of my RPM heads and bought EZs
Last edited by sixpackgut; 01/15/15 05:46 PM.
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
|
|
|
Re: Big Ports, Big Flow #s, And Low Duration Camshafts
[Re: sixpackgut]
#1727951
01/15/15 06:04 PM
01/15/15 06:04 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
|
Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Head flow is king, period. If you've got a good set of heads you will make power.
It's not that simple...
Not that simple but it's a damn good start.
Only if other key things are taken into account. Just because you've got a "good set of heads" that flow well doesn't mean they're the right set of heads for an application.
Put a set of 350cc ported Indy 440-1s on a stock-stroke 400 and you'll have a gutless pig below about 5500 and needs to rev to 8000 to even come close to making the heads "work". Not my idea of a good combination...
I'll take an "OK" set of heads for the right application over a "good set" of heads for the wrong one.
(And this is what results when some people make really generic - and flawed - statements that more detail-specific people take exception to. )
didn't the Brown Sugar car have small cubes with B1 heads and was extremely fast to the point that people thought he was spraying?? I think its more about the combo and and since I'm a street guy I prefer a smaller port but on a race car then I would say Big Heads
this just reminded me of, me and Quicktree went to the PRI show together. there was a set of BB edelbrocks RPM heads next to 360-1 Indy heads and Quick started laughing at the port size of the BB heads and how small the port was. I was at that point ashamed of my RPM heads and bought EZs
It is all about the combo and where the engine spends
MOST of its time... with a small cube engine and a
large set of heads(port flow and cross section) the
engine will have to turn up the revs to make the head
efficient.. BUT if the WHOLE combo is set up for the
revs and you plan on spending the time up in the revs
then it becomes efficient.... JMO so I dont offend
anyone
|
|
|
Re: Big Ports, Big Flow #s, And Low Duration Camshafts
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1727953
01/15/15 06:25 PM
01/15/15 06:25 PM
|
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489
northern,Ohio,USA
Clanton
master
|
master
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489
northern,Ohio,USA
|
Is there any info on paper[port speed,cubic inch,stroke big/small]to back up what this subject is about?Perhaps the port air speed FPS for a cubic inch Min/Max.
Last edited by Clanton; 01/15/15 06:40 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Big Ports, Big Flow #s, And Low Duration Camshafts
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1727954
01/15/15 06:25 PM
01/15/15 06:25 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
Streetwize
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,872
Weddington, N.C.
|
It's probably also worth noting that it's realtively easier to achieve high VE and also hang on close to peak VE longer in a relatively low(er) rpm engine, really regardless of displacement.
The reason is that with a 4 cycle engine the frictional losses(rings/bearings/valvetrain spring pressures and lobe friction) and the drag from the rotational masses all increase at the square of the RPM....so it's like applying an increasingly linear load to the crank as RPM goes up. Kind of like a tractor pull sled, the further up you go, the more drag is applied that the heads and charge have to overcome. The higher you want to rev it, the stiffer springs and stronger/larger (generally) components you need to get there. The only way F1 motors rev as high as they do (in excess of 22,000rpm) is because they don't have conventional valvesprings for the crank to have to overcome. Imagine how much power you would have at the wheels if you camshaft and valvetrain were driven by an electric servomotor instead of a crank and chain driven camshaft. That's the way things have been moving and it's remarkably simple to do today.
And also....generally, after peak VE RPM occurs (for a given motor) the RATE of crank acceleration begins to slow in terms of RPM (or probably more accurate to say Revs/Second per second. That's why hanging on to (as close to) peak VE allows the power curve to continue to rise. And with a flat torque curve the rate of rise is essentially linear (rises proportional to RPM increase )
The optimum port size/shape and valve timing is all relative to the size of the engine AND (more importantly) the range of RPM you want to apply load to that engine. Obviously compression and induction/exhaust optimization all come into play as well.
Last edited by Streetwize; 01/15/15 06:40 PM.
|
|
|
Re: Big Ports, Big Flow #s, And Low Duration Camshafts
[Re: Streetwize]
#1727955
01/15/15 07:30 PM
01/15/15 07:30 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
BradH
Taking time off to work on my car
|
Taking time off to work on my car
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,439
Val-haul-ass... eventually
|
Quote:
The optimum port size/shape and valve timing is all relative to the size of the engine AND (more importantly) the range of RPM you want to apply load to that engine. Obviously compression and induction/exhaust optimization all come into play as well.
Yep. 
|
|
|
Re: Big Ports, Big Flow #s, And Low Duration Camshafts
[Re: BradH]
#1727956
01/15/15 10:51 PM
01/15/15 10:51 PM
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,210
robin hood country
deaks
master
|
master
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 3,210
robin hood country
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Head flow is king, period. If you've got a good set of heads you will make power.
It's not that simple...
Not that simple but it's a damn good start.
Only if other key things are taken into account. Just because you've got a "good set of heads" that flow well doesn't mean they're the right set of heads for an application.
Put a set of 350cc ported Indy 440-1s on a stock-stroke 400 and you'll have a gutless pig below about 5500 and needs to rev to 8000 to even come close to making the heads "work". Not my idea of a good combination...
I'll take an "OK" set of heads for the right application over a "good set" of heads for the wrong one.
(And this is what results when some people make really generic - and flawed - statements that more detail-specific people take exception to. )
Hutch on here runs a stock stroke 383 with 440-1 heads, i believe he shifts about 8200 and runs about 9.8 if i remember correctly.
Mick
69 Dart GTS 440 mopar .590 cam, Edelbrock heads, 3200#
best et 6.45, 106.78, 10.14, 132.88 mph, 1.47 60ft
best 60ft 1.36
|
|
|
Re: Big Ports, Big Flow #s, And Low Duration Camshafts
[Re: Street Monkies]
#1727957
01/15/15 11:23 PM
01/15/15 11:23 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
LaRoy Engines
mopar
|
mopar
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
|
It's not a small block. Does have what I think are bigger than average heads and a smaller cam. We were doing some factory iron head tests and had the Indy EZ heads in the shelf.
440 .030 over, old TRW 6-pack pistons w/ stock rods, 10.5:1 compression, EZ Max Wedge heads flowing 360 cfm @ .700", Edelbrock Victor intake, 850 Mighty Demon carburetor, XE285HL camshaft 241/247 @ .050, .545/.545, 1.6 rockers.
Start dyno pull at 3,500rpm. 500 lb-ft from 3,500-6,000 rpm. Peak torque 543 @ 5,200 rpm and peak HP of 595 @ 6,400 rpm. Don't know if that's good or bad, just is what it is. Never pulled it lower in the rpm range with this combination so can't speak on that.
Last edited by LaRoy Engines; 01/15/15 11:29 PM.
|
|
|
|
|
