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Re: Gen III Hemi- Carb or EFI? Which one is better?
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1697289
11/18/14 07:04 PM
11/18/14 07:04 PM
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,354
ohio
HEMIDARTS
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,354
ohio
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Quote:
Quote:
Will there be newer and better EFI anytime soon?
New and better?............in what way? Some of the current EFI systems you can buy are VERY advanced, can do WAY more than most people know how to do, are rock solid reliable and can also be very EASY to use. Now if you are talking about VVT, there is a couple of boxes that work with it now and I know we/Holley are working on it as well.
Monte
Thank you for the replies. When i said newer and better, i did not mean more bells and whistles. I meant more efficient and or easier to program. I am new to all of the EFI stuff. So from the point of starting completely from scracth and trying to turn a running car into an EFI running car, i wanted to make sure if i wait a couple months, there is not going to be a ground breaking new product that will revolutionize converting carbed vehicles over to EFI.
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Re: Gen III Hemi- Carb or EFI? Which one is better?
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1697292
11/18/14 11:41 PM
11/18/14 11:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733
jacksonville,FLORIDA
slammedR/T
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733
jacksonville,FLORIDA
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Monte,
what is your opinion on the holley dominator EFI set-up??? Eddie Miller seems to like it a lot and I have messed with it on abuddy turbo camaro(LS1)and it seems to be real user friendly.
2000 Dakota R/T, 408 magnum, 727, Indy heads 1000cfm 4150 carb, 93 octane fuel. motor; 10.258 @ 132.78 200 shot; 9.262 @ 144.69 racemagnum
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Re: Gen III Hemi- Carb or EFI? Which one is better?
[Re: BBR]
#1697293
11/18/14 11:44 PM
11/18/14 11:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
GoodysGotaCuda
5.7L Hemi, 6spd
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5.7L Hemi, 6spd
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 25,050
Texas
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Quote:
The main problem I had when I was an EFI-noob was I really had no idea when good enough was good enough.
Getting the tune close enough to run decently and safely took a lot of time. And even then I was constantly questioning (and tinkering) whether it was ok or if it needed to be tweaked to be better.
Going to a carb on the next build was almost a relief because that is what I was comfortable with. It was easier to just say it was "good enough" and focus on other things instead of obsessing over how much to increase the cold start enrichment or whatever.
Knowing when to quit can be interesting, it's due to the data you have.
To me, that data can only make the car better and better when used for good. With a carb, you set it to how the butt-dyno feels and maybe with a wideband at best.
"Ignorance is bliss" with most carb setups, "it runs fine" gets replaced with "it could be a half-a-point leaner from 5,000-6,200, so I'll pull 0.12ms from the table. Slippery slope, I agree, but I find it hard to want a carb after setting up an EFI car.
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Re: Gen III Hemi- Carb or EFI? Which one is better?
[Re: GoodysGotaCuda]
#1697294
11/19/14 01:18 AM
11/19/14 01:18 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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Quote:
Quote:
The main problem I had when I was an EFI-noob was I really had no idea when good enough was good enough.
Getting the tune close enough to run decently and safely took a lot of time. And even then I was constantly questioning (and tinkering) whether it was ok or if it needed to be tweaked to be better.
Going to a carb on the next build was almost a relief because that is what I was comfortable with. It was easier to just say it was "good enough" and focus on other things instead of obsessing over how much to increase the cold start enrichment or whatever.
Knowing when to quit can be interesting, it's due to the data you have.
To me, that data can only make the car better and better when used for good. With a carb, you set it to how the butt-dyno feels and maybe with a wideband at best.
"Ignorance is bliss" with most carb setups, "it runs fine" gets replaced with "it could be a half-a-point leaner from 5,000-6,200, so I'll pull 0.12ms from the table. Slippery slope, I agree, but I find it hard to want a carb after setting up an EFI car.
If I ever have the money to build a 12,000 rpm, efi tube chassis car, your my man 
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: Gen III Hemi- Carb or EFI? Which one is better?
[Re: hemidup]
#1697296
11/19/14 04:59 PM
11/19/14 04:59 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 411
Portersville, Pa
1badx
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 411
Portersville, Pa
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Quote:
Have you played with HPTuners for NGC? Been thinking of going this route with my 05.
Yes, I have and it is very straightforward and includes parameter and table info and ranges. The downside is that you cannot modify the TCM so if you have anything other than the factory gears you will need to come up with another solution for that or the car will not be drivable - which really stinks....
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Re: Gen III Hemi- Carb or EFI? Which one is better?
[Re: slammedR/T]
#1697297
11/19/14 05:15 PM
11/19/14 05:15 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
Monte,
what is your opinion on the holley dominator EFI set-up??? Eddie Miller seems to like it a lot and I have messed with it on abuddy turbo camaro(LS1)and it seems to be real user friendly.
I LOVE it........of course I may be a little biased because I work for Holley and also had LOTS of input on the system itself, as to what I wanted to be able to do with it. In my opinion, you don't have to "speak EFI" to be able to tune the Holley. It is very user friendly. Just like the fuel tables on most ECUs are VE(volumetric efficiency) tables. So what exactly does that number mean?.....nobody really knows. They only know you make it bigger, it adds fuel. The Holley on the other hand, the fuel tables are lb/hr. Everybody understands lb/hr. To make "x" power, you need "x" fuel at a certain BSFC........to me that's easy.
Monte
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Re: Gen III Hemi- Carb or EFI? Which one is better?
[Re: Dragula]
#1697298
11/19/14 05:16 PM
11/19/14 05:16 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 411
Portersville, Pa
1badx
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 411
Portersville, Pa
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Well us old guys, its still an issue of cost to change over to a G3 and proven parts for higher horse power applications are tough to come by....They also lack cubic inches. I would much prefer a +450 cube G3 over a 392 G3...so to go were I want to go I need a power adder...more $$$...Where do these fit in against a typical +500 cube BBM? To each their own. I like them all.
And carbs flat out work for the record. I like both carbs and efi, and both done right are not cheap. I am not talking about a pair of eddy carbs either...So taking a big barrel intake off a newer hemi an restofying it to shed all the un needed stuff, so be it. We do that...
Racing is about going fast with only what is needed.
And I will tell you what, I have been reading on those boosted LSX motors ....
I am an "old guy" and have both a Gary Williams dominator equipped B-body w/a built RB (runs 9.9) and an 06 SRT8 Jeep (that also runs 9.9) with a 5.7 based Gen III Hemi. One is NA and one is turbocharged.
I live in both worlds and tune customer cars in both worlds. The power made by the Gen III's has been proven for at least 5-8 years as well as the components necessary to produce that power.
For the time being there is no need to get involved with the VVT engines. Stick with the 5.7 and 6.1 blocks and make all the power you need. Two weekends ago at Atco we went 9.97 naturally aspirated with a 4 door Charger that weighs 3700#'s and a 1.37 60'. This was with a 6.1 block and "off the shelf" parts readily available to anyone.
There are plenty of forced induction 5.7 and 6.1 based Gen III's making over 1000whp w/off the shelf components - forget about the LSx based stuff - the Mopar guys are doing this all over the place 
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Re: Gen III Hemi- Carb or EFI? Which one is better?
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1697299
11/19/14 07:31 PM
11/19/14 07:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733
jacksonville,FLORIDA
slammedR/T
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733
jacksonville,FLORIDA
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Quote:
Quote:
Monte,
what is your opinion on the holley dominator EFI set-up??? Eddie Miller seems to like it a lot and I have messed with it on abuddy turbo camaro(LS1)and it seems to be real user friendly.
I LOVE it........of course I may be a little biased because I work for Holley and also had LOTS of input on the system itself, as to what I wanted to be able to do with it. In my opinion, you don't have to "speak EFI" to be able to tune the Holley. It is very user friendly. Just like the fuel tables on most ECUs are VE(volumetric efficiency) tables. So what exactly does that number mean?.....nobody really knows. They only know you make it bigger, it adds fuel. The Holley on the other hand, the fuel tables are lb/hr. Everybody understands lb/hr. To make "x" power, you need "x" fuel at a certain BSFC........to me that's easy.
Monte
Yeah I like it was easy to understand and was very user friendly. I also like how it would work with different gm sensors or holley sensors and some others. You just went to a settings screen and switch between the different sensors.
My buddy car had a ls7 map sensor and we selected it in the computer, well the mad wasn't responding or changing. we grabbed a holley map sensor, changed the selection in the computter, and it was working, come to find out the map sensor was bad from the dealer. We got a new ls7 map, changed it, switch the selection in the computer, it is working fine. The computer was also abaile to adapt to the car over time, the idle fuel trims got better over a couple hundred miles of driving it.
2000 Dakota R/T, 408 magnum, 727, Indy heads 1000cfm 4150 carb, 93 octane fuel. motor; 10.258 @ 132.78 200 shot; 9.262 @ 144.69 racemagnum
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Re: Gen III Hemi- Carb or EFI? Which one is better?
[Re: 1badx]
#1697300
11/19/14 11:22 PM
11/19/14 11:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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Quote:
Quote:
Well us old guys, its still an issue of cost to change over to a G3 and proven parts for higher horse power applications are tough to come by....They also lack cubic inches. I would much prefer a +450 cube G3 over a 392 G3...so to go were I want to go I need a power adder...more $$$...Where do these fit in against a typical +500 cube BBM? To each their own. I like them all.
And carbs flat out work for the record. I like both carbs and efi, and both done right are not cheap. I am not talking about a pair of eddy carbs either...So taking a big barrel intake off a newer hemi an restofying it to shed all the un needed stuff, so be it. We do that...
Racing is about going fast with only what is needed.
And I will tell you what, I have been reading on those boosted LSX motors ....
I am an "old guy" and have both a Gary Williams dominator equipped B-body w/a built RB (runs 9.9) and an 06 SRT8 Jeep (that also runs 9.9) with a 5.7 based Gen III Hemi. One is NA and one is turbocharged.
I live in both worlds and tune customer cars in both worlds. The power made by the Gen III's has been proven for at least 5-8 years as well as the components necessary to produce that power.
For the time being there is no need to get involved with the VVT engines. Stick with the 5.7 and 6.1 blocks and make all the power you need. Two weekends ago at Atco we went 9.97 naturally aspirated with a 4 door Charger that weighs 3700#'s and a 1.37 60'. This was with a 6.1 block and "off the shelf" parts readily available to anyone.
There are plenty of forced induction 5.7 and 6.1 based Gen III's making over 1000whp w/off the shelf components - forget about the LSx based stuff - the Mopar guys are doing this all over the place
True...but its a pity we have to empty the slugs out over a bin before even thinking about reliability with boost.... 
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Re: Gen III Hemi- Carb or EFI? Which one is better?
[Re: Moparmal]
#1697302
11/20/14 04:30 PM
11/20/14 04:30 PM
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 411
Portersville, Pa
1badx
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 411
Portersville, Pa
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Quote:
True...but its a pity we have to empty the slugs out over a bin before even thinking about reliability with boost....
What? I hope you are talking about stock pistons? Aftermarket slugs are holding just fine and handling more boost than most on here will ever make.
Heck, even the stock pistons with a good tune will handle 18+ psi. As I found out it is the rods or rod bolts that failed at 25+psi.
Impressive in my book for a completely stock Gen III w/85,000 miles that never had the valve covers off!
Try that with a factory B or RB engine!
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Re: Gen III Hemi- Carb or EFI? Which one is better?
[Re: Moparmal]
#1697304
11/21/14 12:06 PM
11/21/14 12:06 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,645
Houston, Tx
AlexP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,645
Houston, Tx
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Quote:
Of course Im talking about stock pistons....why would I be talking about dumping aftermarket ones?
Yes Im talking about stock cast 6.1 slugs - general opinion being any sort of boost over 6psi sees you losing the top ring land after a while...
If you disagree...Im sure others will verify that this is the commonly held opinion....
However not sure if te 5.7s suffer from the same issue?
I wouldn't argue with him. He understands the tuning more than 99% of us.
Boost isn't always boost. Certain kinds are more forgiving than others. There are exceptions to every rule.
People are putting nitrous and 10+ lbs of boost through stock 6.1's. A good tuner is what links all of those people together.
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Re: Gen III Hemi- Carb or EFI? Which one is better?
[Re: AlexP]
#1697307
11/21/14 10:18 PM
11/21/14 10:18 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
Moparmal
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,943
Melbourne.....Oz-land
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Quote:
Quote:
Of course Im talking about stock pistons....why would I be talking about dumping aftermarket ones?
Yes Im talking about stock cast 6.1 slugs - general opinion being any sort of boost over 6psi sees you losing the top ring land after a while...
If you disagree...Im sure others will verify that this is the commonly held opinion....
However not sure if te 5.7s suffer from the same issue?
I wouldn't argue with him. He understands the tuning more than 99% of us.
Boost isn't always boost. Certain kinds are more forgiving than others. There are exceptions to every rule.
People are putting nitrous and 10+ lbs of boost through stock 6.1's. A good tuner is what links all of those people together.
Alex - thx for the civil reply.
Fwiw Im not arguing - Im trying to get to the bottom of why 'most people' say dont do it....
And its in my nature to test the water to make sure its deep enough for swimming 
Hopefully Badx will post and clarify why this mis-information exists... 
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Re: Gen III Hemi- Carb or EFI? Which one is better?
[Re: Moparmal]
#1697308
11/21/14 10:26 PM
11/21/14 10:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733
jacksonville,FLORIDA
slammedR/T
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 733
jacksonville,FLORIDA
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Quote:
Of course Im talking about stock pistons....why would I be talking about dumping aftermarket ones?
Yes Im talking about stock cast 6.1 slugs - general opinion being any sort of boost over 6psi sees you losing the top ring land after a while...
If you disagree...Im sure others will verify that this is the commonly held opinion....
However not sure if te 5.7s suffer from the same issue?
Um I helped a good friend of mine Rashad Flemmings rebuild and install a stock with cam swap 6.1L into his 06 300C with a paxton S/C and a 100shot of nitrous. Been running for a year now with many track outtings at 10psi with no issues at all.
2000 Dakota R/T, 408 magnum, 727, Indy heads 1000cfm 4150 carb, 93 octane fuel. motor; 10.258 @ 132.78 200 shot; 9.262 @ 144.69 racemagnum
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