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Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: swapman]
#1679273
09/30/14 12:49 AM
09/30/14 12:49 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,632
jersey shore
flypaper
I hate Texas
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I hate Texas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,632
jersey shore
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Quote:
Quote:
there is always a exception!
we know you are one of them...  
By "one of them", do you mean Rhinotruck?
i won't get whineytruck started.. 
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Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: flypaper]
#1679274
09/30/14 11:25 AM
09/30/14 11:25 AM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,321
VA
dragon slayer
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,321
VA
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Quote:
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Many proponents of fake tags and other documentation are simply those whom lack their originals.
they are from people trying to fix thier BIG mistake..
buying a car missing one!
now they dumped a gob of loot into thier car
and
uh oh
my car isn't worth as much as i have into it. 
how can i possibly fix this dilemma?...
any other arguement is just semantics..
if it was just a matter of replacing a missing part
then slap a blank tag on the inner fender
its just as fake as creating one and
it leaves no question as to what it is.
you will never see that being done..
Why do you assume folks pay big money. I understand the point of view, I still laugh at it. Primarily because the folks crying the most about repop tags seem to be over the top questioning motive and calling out folks. You seem to take it to a personal level adding insults and such, vice defending your point. The I am better than thou approach.
There also is a saying that those that cry fraud the most are usually the ones who commit it the most. Should I generalize about that??
By your logic the tag has no value, because even identical cars could have had different data on the tag (besides the VIN) because of human error. There for if a car has molding that wasn't listed on the data tag, or any other option the car must be fake,
Regardless, if you have the broadcast sheet, you have all the appropriate data and more. With it, an honest even if not original, data tag could be made. I would much rather have an original broadcast sheet and a repop fender tag vice an original fender tag and no broadcast sheet.
I would not pass up a highly optioned car with original parts just be cause the fender tag was missing. Especially if it had a broadcast sheet.
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Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: dragon slayer]
#1679275
09/30/14 11:42 AM
09/30/14 11:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,632
jersey shore
flypaper
I hate Texas
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I hate Texas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,632
jersey shore
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Quote:
Regardless, if you have the broadcast sheet, you have all the appropriate data and more. With it, an honest even if not original, data tag could be made.
welp
we can agree we disagree on this issue!
i say no way,impossible
without having to rewriting history and guesswork!
i'm guessing your car must be its missing tag 
you can argue/play semantics all you want,
thats all i have to say about it.
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Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: flypaper]
#1679276
09/30/14 01:30 PM
09/30/14 01:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
62maxwgn
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,436
Blair County,PA
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Quote:
Quote:
Regardless, if you have the broadcast sheet, you have all the appropriate data and more. With it, an honest even if not original, data tag could be made.
welp
we can agree we disagree on this issue!
i say no way,impossible
without having to rewriting history and guesswork!
i'm guessing your car must be its missing tag
you can argue/play semantics all you want,
thats all i have to say about it.
Frank, I have a better idea.Since this subject comes up regularly and it's always a pi$$ing match,why not make this a sticky and then everyone could save their breath,read it one time,make their own choice and and let it go.As many times as this has come up,everyones opinion is already out there,remember the dead horse !!  
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Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: 68gtx]
#1679279
10/01/14 12:39 AM
10/01/14 12:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,407
Brantford Ontario
69_SIX_PACK
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 9,407
Brantford Ontario
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Quote:
So you should only buy a car based only on it having the original fender tag? So that hemi car my neighbor decided to sell that he purchased brand new but lost the fender tag that has 2 build sheets dealer invoice and service records I will need to pass on because for sure he trying to hide something? Sorry but a fender tag should only be part of the consideration when making a purchase. If these tags were very consistent from factory to factory, year after year, and they listed every option that was on the car when built and there was never a mistake made on then I would say they were worth their weight in gold. But they are inconsistent they do have mistakes and they are different from factory to factory and they can even be inconsistent from 1 quarter of the to another in given year and most have limited information on them.So how would you know if he created a tag that was right or wrong? Maybe the original one was stamped incorrectly from the factory and the 1 he created was spot on how would know? I buy cars based on what documents are available to me at the time. A fender tag will never stop from buying a car I like be it original missing or one that was made for the car 
Nobody is saying not to buy the car....just don't replace the tag.
Same neighbor finds the tag, puts it back on the inner fender, changes the oil and the oil filter is defective and he windows the block....does he find another block and restamp it to make it numbers matching because it isn't his fault? 
Or wife cleans up and throws out both his original broadcast sheets...all he has left is a photocopy...does he get a reproduction broadcast sheet made?
I like having the original stuff, it wouldn't stop me from buying a car if the other pieces were good enough to overcome the missing tag.
The car doesn't need the fender tag to function. If it's not there no big deal move on. If you lost your tag that's a shame, if you bought the car without one you knew that going in. Quite simply I don't feel you can right the wrong. You either have the original fender tag or you don't. Just like a engine, tranny, broadcast sheet etc....
Of course the above is just my opinion.
Fake fender tags have been around a long time GTS - Galen Tag Service. I never quite understood why he made them
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Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: 69_SIX_PACK]
#1679280
10/01/14 01:26 AM
10/01/14 01:26 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
dannysbee
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
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Quote:
Quote:
So you should only buy a car based only on it having the original fender tag? So that hemi car my neighbor decided to sell that he purchased brand new but lost the fender tag that has 2 build sheets dealer invoice and service records I will need to pass on because for sure he trying to hide something? Sorry but a fender tag should only be part of the consideration when making a purchase. If these tags were very consistent from factory to factory, year after year, and they listed every option that was on the car when built and there was never a mistake made on then I wwere worth their weight in gold. But they are inconsistent they do have mistakes and they are different from factory to factory and they can even be inconsistent from 1 quarter of the to another in given year and most have limited information on them.So how would you know if he created a tag that was right or wrong? Maybe the original one was stamped incorrectly from the factory and the 1 he created was spot on how would know? I buy cars based on what documents are available to me at the time. A fender tag will never stop from buying a car I like be it original missing or one that was made for the car
Nobody is saying not to buy the car....just don't replace the tag.
Same neighbor finds the tag, puts it back on the inner fender, changes the oil and the oil filter is defective and he windows the block....does he find another block and restamp it to make it numbers matching because it isn't his fault?
Or wife cleans up and throws out both his original broadcast sheets...all he has left is a photocopy...does he get a reproduction broadcast sheet made?
I like having the original stuff, it wouldn't stop me from buying a car if the other pieces were good enough to overcome the missing tag.
The car doesn't need the fender tag to function. If it's not there no big deal move on. If you lost your tag that's a shame, if you bought the car without one you knew that going in. Quite simply I don't feel you can right the wrong. You either have the original fender tag or you don't. Just like a engine, tranny, broadcast sheet etc....
Of course the above is just my opinion.
Fake fender tags have been around a long time GTS - Galen Tag Service. I never quite understood why he made them [/quote
Money I believe was the reason.
Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.
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Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: 69_SIX_PACK]
#1679281
10/01/14 02:27 AM
10/01/14 02:27 AM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,321
VA
dragon slayer
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,321
VA
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Quote:
Quote:
So you should only buy a car based only on it having the original fender tag? So that hemi car my neighbor decided to sell that he purchased brand new but lost the fender tag that has 2 build sheets dealer invoice and service records I will need to pass on because for sure he trying to hide something? Sorry but a fender tag should only be part of the consideration when making a purchase. If these tags were very consistent from factory to factory, year after year, and they listed every option that was on the car when built and there was never a mistake made on then I would say they were worth their weight in gold. But they are inconsistent they do have mistakes and they are different from factory to factory and they can even be inconsistent from 1 quarter of the to another in given year and most have limited information on them.So how would you know if he created a tag that was right or wrong? Maybe the original one was stamped incorrectly from the factory and the 1 he created was spot on how would know? I buy cars based on what documents are available to me at the time. A fender tag will never stop from buying a car I like be it original missing or one that was made for the car
Nobody is saying not to buy the car....just don't replace the tag.
Same neighbor finds the tag, puts it back on the inner fender, changes the oil and the oil filter is defective and he windows the block....does he find another block and restamp it to make it numbers matching because it isn't his fault?
Or wife cleans up and throws out both his original broadcast sheets...all he has left is a photocopy...does he get a reproduction broadcast sheet made?
I like having the original stuff, it wouldn't stop me from buying a car if the other pieces were good enough to overcome the missing tag.
The car doesn't need the fender tag to function. If it's not there no big deal move on. If you lost your tag that's a shame, if you bought the car without one you knew that going in. Quite simply I don't feel you can right the wrong. You either have the original fender tag or you don't. Just like a engine, tranny, broadcast sheet etc....
Of course the above is just my opinion.
Fake fender tags have been around a long time GTS - Galen Tag Service. I never quite understood why he made them
You don't need the decals on the car either, so if the original are lost or damaged during a restoration why put them back on, why chalk marks, why paint a battery cable orange?
Because some folks desire to restore the car to as original as possible. Some only use original or OEM stuff, others use Reproduction. No one can match the paint perfect or place all the decals exactly where the were original, but they do the best they can.
A "TRIM" tag just points out some of the major options. Color and interior being a major component. Frankly for some models the cars where optioned very similar. If you had a basic model, you can find several examples with Broadcast sheets that code the same and examine the fender tags (from the same plant) and find they are consistent. So even if you can't replicate an unknown error that may or may not have been made on the data tag, you can spell out the appropriate data especially color, interior, roof and the major options if any that would have been listed if the tag maker followed the factory guidance. It is as simple at that.
People do put them on, because so many folks obsess about them. I would have no problem pointing out it is a repo as I show them the Broad cast sheet. But I also would disclose everything I know about the car. I feel comfortable that I have invested my disposable income properly in the car so I am not worried about it. G
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Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: dragon slayer]
#1679282
10/01/14 02:38 AM
10/01/14 02:38 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
You don't need the decals on the car either, so if the original are lost or damaged during a restoration why put them back on, why chalk marks, why paint a battery cable orange?
Parts and documentation = different subject entirely, chalk marks, decals, and other assembly detail items are NOT documentation
Because some folks desire to restore the car to as original as possible. Some only use original or OEM stuff, others use Reproduction. No one can match the paint perfect or place all the decals exactly where the were original, but they do the best they can. Yes, there is room for every variable in our hobby, that's what makes it fun, we all have our own opinions on details and how far to take things.
A "TRIM" tag just points out some of the major options. Color and interior being a major component. Frankly for some models the cars where optioned very similar. If you had a basic model, you can find several examples with Broadcast sheets that code the same and examine the fender tags (from the same plant) and find they are consistent.
Somewhat true, but over simplified, most tags carry much more than just "minimal" option code info.
So even if you can't replicate an unknown error that may or may not have been made on the data tag, you can spell out the appropriate data especially color, interior, roof and the major options if any that would have been listed if the tag maker followed the factory guidance. It is as simple at that. I'm sorry, it is not as simple as that
People do put them on, because so many folks obsess about them. Maybe SOME people do, but there's a variety of other reasons, perceived value being one of the more common ones
I would have no problem pointing out it is a repo as I show them the Broad cast sheet. But I also would disclose everything I know about the car. That's great! But what about the next owner, do you think he will do the same? When he passes it on to an owner down the road will the story even get to that owner or will he actually think his car and documents are originals? (I've found this to be the case MANY times!)
I feel comfortable that I have invested my disposable income properly in the car so I am not worried about it. G
Good for you, sounds like you are in a good place
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Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: flypaper]
#1679283
10/02/14 02:13 AM
10/02/14 02:13 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
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With hundreds of millions of US currency counterfeit C notes in circulation, more 427 ci 435 horsepower Corvettes sold at auction each year than GM ever built, millions of perfect Rolex clones and Gucci purses sold on the streets from Hong Kong to New York, and museums of the world over burdened by multi million dollar phony supposed 'masterpieces',,,,,why do so many still subscribe to the fantasy that a few pieces of stamped metal and printed paper forms are sufficient evidence that their car is a genuine rarity that deserves a value oft times many multiples of the same car without these too easily(far simpler than most of the examples given above)faked and counterfeit proofs of some supposed illustrious provenance One day I suspect that this will all end badly for many when the music stops and there is an absence of sufficient chairs for all who seek one. By the way, when does the ground war begin? 
Last edited by Sxrxrnr; 10/02/14 03:19 PM.
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Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1679284
10/02/14 02:25 AM
10/02/14 02:25 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
ScottSmith_Harms
Mr Wizzard
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Mr Wizzard
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 42,714
Spokane Washington
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Quote:
With hundreds of millions of US currency counterfeit C notes in circulation, more 427 ci 435 horsepower Corvettes sold at auction each year than GM ever built, millions of perfect Rolex clones and Gucci purses sold on the streets from Hong Kong to New York and museums of the world over burdened by multi million dollar phony 'masterpieces',,,,,why do so many still subscribe to the fantasy that a few pieces of stamped metal and printed paper forms are sufficient evidence that their car is a genuine rarity that deserves a value oft times many multiples of the same car without these too easily(far simpler than most of the examples given above)faked and counterfeit proofs of some supposed illustrious providence?
One day I suspect that this will all end badly for many when the music stops and there is an absence of chairs for all who seek one.
By the way, when does the ground war begin?
Of course, as with anything valuable, you will find an unscrupulous criminal element trying to profit by fraudulent means.
A cars documentation is only one part of the picture in verifying it's originality, often times, a major part. That said, other information such as the cars history, are even more important and can help complete the big picture.
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Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#1679285
10/02/14 02:52 AM
10/02/14 02:52 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 349
West Central Wisconsin
DeMopuar
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 349
West Central Wisconsin
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I would look at this issue another way in a thought experiment. Say you have two identical valuable cars; say a 1971 440 six pack convertible with a four speed, dana rear, shaker hood, power steering, and rim blow steering wheel. Both cars are magically curious yellow. Now one car only has a repop VIN tag on the dash pad and is missing the fender tag, door sticker, and no broadcast sheet. Now the other car has an original VIN tag on the dash pad, broadcast sheet, driver's door sticker, and fender tag.
You've got $750,000 (just stay with me) burning a hole in your pocket, which car would you buy -- and yes, you have verified that both cars have matching number engines and transmissions and there is no question about that.
Without arguing about the value of said car, if both cars asking price was the same at $750,000 and the owners are not willing to move off that price, and you were definitely going to buy one of them, I think I know which one most of us would pick because it would be "worth more" than the other all other things being equal.
Now I'm not saying that the other car is worthless, and I think this is where people without fender tags get upset. The cars are definitely worth something, but compared to a car that has all of this documentation, it will never be worth the same amount. The rare stuff like the car I described above and hemi cars will have the highest differential of pricing with missing documentation. When you go down the food chain, that differential will not be as great -- but you've got to put yourself in the shoes of a potential buyer that understands the documentation thing and if you're asking all the money for a car, and don't have the documentation; this is where you've got to understand the difference between a knowledgeable buyer and someone new to the Mopar car collecting world.
Mark
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