|
Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: 69CoronetRT]
#1679249
09/29/14 01:20 PM
09/29/14 01:20 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 16,844
Phoenix - surface of the sun
nomore65BelvJim
I Live Here
|
I Live Here
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 16,844
Phoenix - surface of the sun
|
Quote:
Quote:
This topic always brings up different opinions.
Personally I would much rather have a car's original build sheet than it's origina fender tag 
I do find it amusing that some people won't consider buying a car with a repop fender tag, especially one made from an original build sheet, but have no issues with a car with new Chinese made quarters, doors, fenders, floors, interior and trim parts, etc. 
Replacement parts on a 50 year old car don't change the underlying original pedigree of the car. (Who wants to drive with a 50 YO fan belt, radiator hose or tires?) Sheet metal on a 318 car is pretty much the same as a Hemi car.
A fender tag is one of the items used to document originality. Sheet metal doesn't.
 Thats pretty much it, right there.
Then of course there are those that dance around it ethically by claiming that the fender tag is just a part, like a door or a water pump.
|
|
|
Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: 69CoronetRT]
#1679253
09/29/14 02:03 PM
09/29/14 02:03 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,497
N.E. Ohio
KillerBee
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,497
N.E. Ohio
|
Quote:
Quote:
So it's OK to transfer the drivetrain over to a 318 car and completely rebody an original high dollar pedigree car as long as you screw it's original fender tag back on?
Different topic.
No.
"Sheet metal on a 318 car is pretty much the same as a Hemi car".
Sheet metal from China (or any other non orinal Mopar part) is NOT the same as original sheet metal from a 318 or Hemi car and certain original sheetmetal parts are most definitely used to identify a car's pedigree..
|
|
|
Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: 69CoronetRT]
#1679255
09/29/14 04:53 PM
09/29/14 04:53 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,326
VA
dragon slayer
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,326
VA
|
Quote:
Quote:
This topic always brings up different opinions.
Personally I would much rather have a car's original build sheet than it's origina fender tag
I do find it amusing that some people won't consider buying a car with a repop fender tag, especially one made from an original build sheet, but have no issues with a car with new Chinese made quarters, doors, fenders, floors, interior and trim parts, etc.
Replacement parts on a 50 year old car don't change the underlying original pedigree of the car. (Who wants to drive with a 50 YO fan belt, radiator hose or tires?) Sheet metal on a 318 car is pretty much the same as a Hemi car.
A fender tag is one of the items used to document originality. Sheet metal doesn't.
A fender tag most certainly WAS NOT intended to document originality. Rather an ID of the basic trim, paint, and options. Most (all) fender tags do not have every option the car was born with included.
Also disagree with your underlining pedigree statement. That is why one owner documented original can sometimes bring more money than a restored car of equivalent pedigree, but without the as born parts.
So where does redrawing chalk and crayon marks fall? Clearly you can not recreate the exact marks and location a human placed them? Isn't that fraudulent, similar to fake art paintings?
I agree with this is a personal choice thing. I do take issue with those that want to call it fraud, when there is no intent to deceive and if the car is sold it is disclosed. Wonder how many folks disclose the bondo in the car, or the replaced fender, hood, etc... when they advertise it as factory original numbers matching. Seems like a car is only factory original once, unless it is placed in storage before the first consumable part requires replacement. G
|
|
|
Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: dragon slayer]
#1679256
09/29/14 05:38 PM
09/29/14 05:38 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,948
Harlan, Iowa
69CoronetRT
master
|
master
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 8,948
Harlan, Iowa
|
Quote:
A fender tag most certainly WAS NOT intended to document originality. Rather an ID of the basic trim, paint, and options. Most (all) fender tags do not have every option the car was born with included.
Also disagree with your underlining pedigree statement. That is why one owner documented original can sometimes bring more money than a restored car of equivalent pedigree, but without the as born parts.
So where does redrawing chalk and crayon marks fall? Clearly you can not recreate the exact marks and location a human placed them? Isn't that fraudulent, similar to fake art paintings?
I agree with this is a personal choice thing. I do take issue with those that want to call it fraud, when there is no intent to deceive and if the car is sold it is disclosed. Wonder how many folks disclose the bondo in the car, or the replaced fender, hood, etc... when they advertise it as factory original numbers matching. Seems like a car is only factory original once, unless it is placed in storage before the first consumable part requires replacement. G
Don't confuse originality with pedigree.
One owner cars and value is a different topic. Please feel free to start another thread on the difference in value between original documented and restored.
Nope. Different topic. Another red herring.
Different topic. Bondo on a Hemi car with the original tag doesn't negate the fact it was a hemi car. Perfect sheet metal with a fake tag makes the car questionable.
The topic is (was....) remaking an accurate fender tag based on a broadcast sheet and, potentially, the ethics behind it.
Can it be done? In certain specific instances, yes. It can be. In most or all instances? No. Some tags are impossible to reproduce accurately without the original tag.
Would most people pay for a reproduction part they knew going in was inaccurate and incorrect for their application or would they expect a high standard of 'correctness'?
Last edited by 69CoronetRT; 09/29/14 05:49 PM.
Seeking:
1969 St. Louis plant VINs, SPD, and VONs.
Over 2,000 thanks to you!
|
|
|
Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: 69CoronetRT]
#1679257
09/29/14 06:30 PM
09/29/14 06:30 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,497
N.E. Ohio
KillerBee
master
|
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,497
N.E. Ohio
|
Quote:
Would most people pay for a reproduction part they knew going in was inaccurate and incorrect for their application or would they expect a high standard of 'correctness'?
Most people DO pay for reproduction Mopar restoration parts that are inaccurate and/or incorrect.
Here is a E-body tachometer that I bought last year from a respected Moparts vender claiming it was an absolutely PERFECT reproduction and fully licensed by Chrysler.
I knew it was wrong as soon as I took it out of the box...I sent it back...as far as I know they are STILL selling the incorrect tachometer.
No need to call it a red herring or suggest I start a new post...a correctly made repop fender tag from an original build sheet is no more accurate or inaccurate than any other non NOS repop part that's installed on a high dollar restoration, like it or not.
The wise Mopar shopper does their homework and takes nothing for granted.
I've been around Mopars long enough to know even the self appointed experts are very often wrong and usually have some agenda behind their opinions. 
|
|
|
Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: 68gtx]
#1679259
09/29/14 09:17 PM
09/29/14 09:17 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,131
Home of the Bluegrass
MoparJunkie
super stock
|
super stock
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,131
Home of the Bluegrass
|
There are alot of good points stated.... After being in this hobby for a long time, and dealing with Mopars the only consistent thing about all Mopars are the inconsistencies... That being said, yes there are alot of people benefiting from most of this hobby monetarily(let's face it that's a fact that won't go away)! But, that's one reason we have the repop parts we have, so it's a double edged sword. I agree there's alot of misdirected intent on things being done in this hobby, but not all people are looking to mislead or benefit from BS.... So, if you want a tag redone by one of the companies that provide this service, then by all means do what you want. All the negativity will be there with or without your actions.... Me, I wouldn't worry about a tag, but it's your car!
"It takes a Mopar to catch a Mopar”
1971 Roadrunner FJ6 Sassy Grass 505"RB, 18 spline 4 speed, and Dana 60 with 3.54
2022 Hellcat Charger Widebody Redeye Jailbreak: Hellraisin with 8 speed auto
|
|
|
Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: 68gtx]
#1679260
09/29/14 09:17 PM
09/29/14 09:17 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,632
jersey shore
flypaper
I hate Texas
|
I hate Texas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,632
jersey shore
|
comparing a repop tag to a repop part is a total joke!  there is a huge difference! fender tags are unique and specific to each individual car. repop parts are unique and specific to each model line of car. a repop tag without a original to copy is a guess at best! you have no idea what was on the original it is something you have to create. with a repop part you know exactly what is supposed to look like,no guessing,no creating. one has to come from your imagination.. the other comes from reality. i hope this helps explains it to the who thinks its the exact same thing or puts them in the same category!.. 
|
|
|
Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: flypaper]
#1679263
09/29/14 10:46 PM
09/29/14 10:46 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,326
VA
dragon slayer
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,326
VA
|
Why is it a guess? Look at enough tags and matching broadcast sheets and you can pick out the pattern of what is on the tag, and what is not. Sure you can't replicate an inspector mark, but not all had them.
I compare it to the folks that spend time placing chalk markings on the car, or painting overlaps and trying to replicate a factory paint over spray on a motor. They are a guess too, unless you have picture documentation of all the marks before you start the restoration. Even than, unless your a certified forgery expert you can't match it exactly, so why spend the time doing it?
So all restorations in one way are just replications of what the car may have been. Many people enjoy that aspect, and many folks pay good money for that level of detail.
To me replacing the tag is just putting on a component that is missing or damaged. With good research and broadcast sheet you can at least get how it should have been, even if someone made an error making the original.
So while we can all disagree about doing it I still have a laugh on how hard over some say it is fraudulent. Despite all the other issue that exist with restorations.
|
|
|
Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: 69CoronetRT]
#1679264
09/29/14 11:05 PM
09/29/14 11:05 PM
|
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,326
VA
dragon slayer
pro stock
|
pro stock
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,326
VA
|
Quote:
Quote:
A fender tag most certainly WAS NOT intended to document originality. Rather an ID of the basic trim, paint, and options. Most (all) fender tags do not have every option the car was born with included.
Also disagree with your underlining pedigree statement. That is why one owner documented original can sometimes bring more money than a restored car of equivalent pedigree, but without the as born parts.
So where does redrawing chalk and crayon marks fall? Clearly you can not recreate the exact marks and location a human placed them? Isn't that fraudulent, similar to fake art paintings?
I agree with this is a personal choice thing. I do take issue with those that want to call it fraud, when there is no intent to deceive and if the car is sold it is disclosed. Wonder how many folks disclose the bondo in the car, or the replaced fender, hood, etc... when they advertise it as factory original numbers matching. Seems like a car is only factory original once, unless it is placed in storage before the first consumable part requires replacement. G
Don't confuse originality with pedigree.
Your the one that stated a fender tag proves originality in a previous post. I am just stating that was not it's intend. If so it would probably have been rivet on the dash like the VIN tag too. There have been plenty of dash frames, with radiator supports and fender tags moved to different cars.
It is just too easy to move those parts to a donner car.
If your really after originality you have to look for an awful lot of casting numbers, part numbers with corresponding date stamps matched up to your car. And not the plus or minus 6 month stuff.
I value original over non original or repop too. But I also understand folks taking a car and trying to make it whole.
|
|
|
Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: dragon slayer]
#1679265
09/29/14 11:25 PM
09/29/14 11:25 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,632
jersey shore
flypaper
I hate Texas
|
I hate Texas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,632
jersey shore
|
Quote:
Why is it a guess? Look at enough tags and matching broadcast sheets and you can pick out the pattern of what is on the tag, and what is not.
and no matter what paper you have,
no matter how many tags you stare at.
you still have to GUESS which exact numbers to put on the tag.
you have no idea exactly what was on the orig in the first place.
you might think you know
but there is no way to call it 100% for sure.
you have no clue what was omitted or included on
the original once its gone.
you have to create it yourself or some so called expert
has to.
chark marks and such are such a weak arguement
they are not used as identifying factors and
they are a different animal and have no comparison to a repop tag or this discussion.
the only part on the car to compare to a repop fender tag is the vin tag.
following your logic repoping them to what you want is ok also!
repop tags are the worst thing to happen in the hobby
they premote fraud, no matter what someone's original intentions are.
|
|
|
Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: ScottSmith_Harms]
#1679266
09/29/14 11:31 PM
09/29/14 11:31 PM
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,632
jersey shore
flypaper
I hate Texas
|
I hate Texas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 18,632
jersey shore
|
Quote:
Many proponents of fake tags and other documentation are simply those whom lack their originals.
they are from people trying to fix thier BIG mistake..
buying a car missing one!
now they dumped a gob of loot into thier car
and
uh oh
my car isn't worth as much as i have into it.
how can i possibly fix this dilemma?...
any other arguement is just semantics..
if it was just a matter of replacing a missing part
then slap a blank tag on the inner fender
its just as fake as creating one and
it leaves no question as to what it is.
you will never see that being done..
|
|
|
Re: Repop fender tag
[Re: flypaper]
#1679268
09/30/14 12:25 AM
09/30/14 12:25 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,200
Sec.414,seat 12,White Sox Park
swapman
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,200
Sec.414,seat 12,White Sox Park
|
Quote:
if it was just a matter of replacing a missing part
then slap a blank tag on the inner fender
its just as fake as creating one and
it leaves no question as to what it is.
you will never see that being done..
Hey Flypaper, will this tag pass muster in new Jersey?
"leaves no question as to what it is." 
I built it, I tagged it, I'm proud of it.
 
|
|
|
|
|
