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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: ]
#1673757
09/21/14 02:22 PM
09/21/14 02:22 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
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The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view
Monte
You forgot the part of where the "group three" whines and blames the others because they can't pick up the phone and have the parts they want shipped next day. And they want 20 plus heads to choose from......And blocks available in any bore space and deck height they desire...
And then there are the group four guys that are out there racing instead of whining and blaming others about having no parts.....
So in your obvious infinite wisdom of all things drag racing and making big power.........why is it wrong for some of us to desire the same options that the other brands have........Next day???, what are you talking about. The parts I want don't even exist
And of course somebody always brings up fuel HEMIs. Not everybody runs top fuel, so it would be nice to be able to build a motor that can compete equally in OTHER classes without having to bolt turbos or blowers on it.
Dewayne Mills car has a 481X motor in it, which is an Oldsmobile head
Monte
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: EchoSixMike]
#1673758
09/21/14 02:30 PM
09/21/14 02:30 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
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The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view
Monte
I suppose it should be pointed out that there is no "mopar/chevy/ford" at that level. It's all custom stuff, as I'm sure you know.
Funny you should say that though............as every time we see a nice Mopar with a 5.0 or 5.3 bore space motor in it........it is immediately written off with a "too bad it has a Chevy motor" statement. I myself have been thrown under the bus for stating I was putting one of those "custom" all aluminum motors in my own car and called "not a real Mopar guy" because I was putting a Chevy motor in it..........So obviously not everybody shares your thought process
Monte
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1673759
09/21/14 02:43 PM
09/21/14 02:43 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view
Monte
You forgot the part of where the "group three" whines and blames the others because they can't pick up the phone and have the parts they want shipped next day. And they want 20 plus heads to choose from......And blocks available in any bore space and deck height they desire...
And then there are the group four guys that are out there racing instead of whining and blaming others about having no parts.....
So in your obvious infinite wisdom of all things drag racing and making big power.........why is it wrong for some of us to desire the same options that the other brands have.
And of course somebody always brings up fuel HEMIs. Not everybody runs top fuel, so it would be nice to be able to build a motor that can compete equally in OTHER classes without having to bolt turbos or blowers on it.
Dewayne Mills car has a 481X motor in it, which is an Oldsmobile head
Monte
Just wondering, what is the bore spacing on the pro stock hemi head? If someone was to make a tall deck block that would fit that head, would it be a viable option? As i see it, any way you slice it, it will "look" like a chevy engine regardless of what block gets put under the head.
If the pro stock hemi head would serve as a foundation for a big inch mopar engine, lets all get together and have someone start making blocks to fill the void.
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1673760
09/21/14 02:58 PM
09/21/14 02:58 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view
Monte
I suppose it should be pointed out that there is no "mopar/chevy/ford" at that level. It's all custom stuff, as I'm sure you know.
Funny you should say that though............as every time we see a nice Mopar with a 5.0 or 5.3 bore space motor in it........it is immediately written off with a "too bad it has a Chevy motor" statement. I myself have been thrown under the bus for stating I was putting one of those "custom" all aluminum motors in my own car and called "not a real Mopar guy" because I was putting a Chevy motor in it..........So obviously not everybody shares your thought process
Monte
Seems like the MoPar guys don't get it. You can NOT compete if you have a 4.80 or 4.84 BS when someone else can have a 5.0 or 5.3 BS. It is impossible. I have been harping on this for decades now and guys still want to build 451 CI low decks. The 451 is a great combo is you are stuck with stock bore spacing. After that...just wasting time. I think a great majority of people don't get that HP is directly related to 3 simple things (no particular order here). Actual, useable air flow. Piston area. RPM. Every time you increase the bore, the HP should go up. Every time you increase the stroke, you increase and/or flatten the torque curve.
Since I run a transmission (don't even get me started on how the useless powerglide has destroyed chassis tuning and understanding) I will give up low end torque to gain HP every single time.
Along that line, which combination will be quicker? 425 HP and 825 lb/ft or 650 HP and 525 lb/ft?
Explain why one would be better than the other.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: madscientist]
#1673761
09/21/14 03:02 PM
09/21/14 03:02 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,314
Charlotte, NC
LSP
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 1,314
Charlotte, NC
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view
Monte
I suppose it should be pointed out that there is no "mopar/chevy/ford" at that level. It's all custom stuff, as I'm sure you know.
Funny you should say that though............as every time we see a nice Mopar with a 5.0 or 5.3 bore space motor in it........it is immediately written off with a "too bad it has a Chevy motor" statement. I myself have been thrown under the bus for stating I was putting one of those "custom" all aluminum motors in my own car and called "not a real Mopar guy" because I was putting a Chevy motor in it..........So obviously not everybody shares your thought process
Monte
Seems like the MoPar guys don't get it. You can NOT compete if you have a 4.80 or 4.84 BS when someone else can have a 5.0 or 5.3 BS. It is impossible.
5.0" stuff's been available for a while, looks just like the latest Pro Stock "Hemi" too -
http://goodwincompetition.com/hemi.htm
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1673762
09/21/14 03:12 PM
09/21/14 03:12 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
why is it wrong for some of us to desire the same options that the other brands have........
Monte
The point of many threads on here is the WE all would like the same options AND pricing as the chevy stuff......
Hellooooo...the original poster was blasting Mopar people for wanting blocks that are priced like chevy's are !!! But for Mopar guys to want that is a crime !
Guys like you want to blame every Mopar guy for the situation....
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: madscientist]
#1673763
09/21/14 03:29 PM
09/21/14 03:29 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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Just wondering, what is the bore spacing on the pro stock hemi head? If someone was to make a tall deck block that would fit that head, would it be a viable option? As i see it, any way you slice it, it will "look" like a chevy engine regardless of what block gets put under the head.
If the pro stock hemi head would serve as a foundation for a big inch mopar engine, lets all get together and have someone start making blocks to fill the void.
I think the guy's name is Goodwin, and they make a billet block for a 5" bore spacing engine, which is what the Mopar pro stock program is built around. Diablo has what I believe is a 655" deal for sled pulling. I want to say it makes around 1350-1400, and the price tag is north of $75,000. He might chime in and correct me, but he will know. Al Alguire also ran 500 CI tamed hemi 99 deal in the 10.5" tire class, he can tell you about that.
That's the point. Al, Boat Racer 572, Steve Gill and I are now working with the predator combos. Boat Racer and Steve Gill, are the only ones I know, and I'm sure there are others although rare, doing it successfully. Indy is useless for information. I have in excess of $1000 just on head gaskets because as I said, Indy is useless with any information/help. If I didn't have help from the other names mentioned here and some I didn't, I might as well be doing this by scratch.
This is where my frustration comes from. Fact, I could have ordered a 665 12 degree GM style race application motor for around $40-45,000 with a dry sump making an easy 1400 + HP. If I needed help, I know at least ten people that have more information and knowledge than Indy, and are ready to help. And if I had my money back, that's what I would do. I've been a Mopar loyalist for over 40 years, but eventually enough is enough. So if or when I decide to sell this stuff and go the easy route, someone will get a sweet deal on this stuff and all the info they want.
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: camastomcat]
#1673766
09/21/14 03:44 PM
09/21/14 03:44 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
The point of many threads on here is the WE all would like the same options AND pricing as the chevy stuff......
Hellooooo...the original poster was blasting Mopar people for wanting blocks that are priced like chevy's are !!! But for Mopar guys to want that is a crime !
Guys like you want to blame every Mopar guy for the situation....
Man,
You should seek some help dude.......A.D.D. can be medicated.
Why, because I don't whine and blame others because I can't get the parts I want for the price I wanna pay ?
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: ]
#1673767
09/21/14 03:51 PM
09/21/14 03:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
MoparBilly
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,448
Phoenix, AZ
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Monte,
When I go to the big shootouts, and I see someone with a mopar bodied car, and an 800+ cubic inch nitrous combination, I have no problem rooting for them. This didn't happen overnight, I had my head stuck in the sand for years. I'm not close minded, just a little stubborn!
Tom,
I understand that desire to use the same car for multiple purposes. I just think T/D is advancing at a pace that makes that difficult, or darn near impossible.
Mad Scientist
You make it sound like Mopar guys are the only ones in love with big dumb torque motors. Every time a great flowing chevy head comes out, that makes great power at 10 grand, somebody figures out how to throw 200 more inches under it and shift at 7500. Is it faster? No. It's more tractable, repeatable, and easier on parts. Not everyone desires to be the tip of the spear.
Eric.
Do you have a problem with the Indy Maxx blocks, other than price point?
When I hear some of you talk about how good the chevy guys have it, I'm reminded of An American Tail with all the mice singing "There are no cats in America". I have many friends who run that stuff, and end up frustrated as well.
"Livin' in a powder keg and givin' off sparks"
4 Street cars, 5 Race engines
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: MoparBilly]
#1673768
09/21/14 04:17 PM
09/21/14 04:17 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,422
Pittsburgh PA
Eric
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,422
Pittsburgh PA
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Quote:
Monte,
When I go to the big shootouts, and I see someone with a mopar bodied car, and an 800+ cubic inch nitrous combination, I have no problem rooting for them. This didn't happen overnight, I had my head stuck in the sand for years. I'm not close minded, just a little stubborn!
Tom,
I understand that desire to use the same car for multiple purposes. I just think T/D is advancing at a pace that makes that difficult, or darn near impossible.
Mad Scientist
You make it sound like Mopar guys are the only ones in love with big dumb torque motors. Every time a great flowing chevy head comes out, that makes great power at 10 grand, somebody figures out how to throw 200 more inches under it and shift at 7500. Is it faster? No. It's more tractable, repeatable, and easier on parts. Not everyone desires to be the tip of the spear.
Eric.
Do you have a problem with the Indy Maxx blocks, other than price point?
When I hear some of you talk about how good the chevy guys have it, I'm reminded of An American Tail with all the mice singing "There are no cats in America". I have many friends who run that stuff, and end up frustrated as well.
No probs Billy...will probably be my next short block. I guess my issue is the price point..and I'm not saying it's not worth the $...just frustrating to see the options other makes have even at the level I race at.
My thoughts in the other thread were what would someone pay for a decent block and how the heck can we get someone to build one at a "Bowtie" or closer price.
5.53 @ 125 1/8th on the launch control..more left in her!
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: sixpackgut]
#1673769
09/21/14 04:21 PM
09/21/14 04:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view
Monte
You forgot the part of where the "group three" whines and blames the others because they can't pick up the phone and have the parts they want shipped next day. And they want 20 plus heads to choose from......And blocks available in any bore space and deck height they desire...
And then there are the group four guys that are out there racing instead of whining and blaming others about having no parts.....
So in your obvious infinite wisdom of all things drag racing and making big power.........why is it wrong for some of us to desire the same options that the other brands have.
And of course somebody always brings up fuel HEMIs. Not everybody runs top fuel, so it would be nice to be able to build a motor that can compete equally in OTHER classes without having to bolt turbos or blowers on it.
Dewayne Mills car has a 481X motor in it, which is an Oldsmobile head
Monte
Just wondering, what is the bore spacing on the pro stock hemi head? If someone was to make a tall deck block that would fit that head, would it be a viable option? As i see it, any way you slice it, it will "look" like a chevy engine regardless of what block gets put under the head.
If the pro stock hemi head would serve as a foundation for a big inch mopar engine, lets all get together and have someone start making blocks to fill the void.
Pro-Stock is limited to a 4.900 bore space and has been for years. While it would be nice, a 4.900 motor is pretty much useless except for Pro-Stock, as you are still limited on bore size and parts are non existent. And while the Pro-Stock HEMI is NOT a REAL HEMI, the design is still not ideal for other classes, as that head is specifically designed for 500" racing. There were some 5.0 Pro-Stock MEMI heads at one time for IHRA, they were pretty much one off stuff and even if you had one, you would be WAY behind on technology there. The baddest N/A motors on the planet, run in big inch IHRA Pro-Stock trim and that is where the Sonnys head rules the roost. And before anybody chimes in with "that is a HEMI".......that head resembles a Chrysler HEMI about as much as a Briggs and Stratton head does. For the MAJORITY of classes where big power and inches are the answer, a WEDGE head is the choice of 99% of guys. Even in what are just considered "fast bracket" classes these days, Top Sportsman and Top Dragster, big engines are the norm, with a 632 being extremely small these days. The Ford and Chevy guys who do still have those small motors, have to really push that stuff hard to make those fields these days. And that is what camastomcat is referring to. If THOSE guys are struggling, what chance do you have with the 20+ year old technology the Mopar crowd is saddled with? The answer is not much. And we are talking to JUST MAKE the field at many big races, much less be near the top. In these classes, 5.0 bore space 700" motors are the norm and the 5.300 stuff is becoming more and more prevalent.
Now you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that we(Mopar guys) are a VERY small percentage of the drag racing scene and as such the demand for top of the line parts will be VERY small, because there just aren't enough interested in doing that type stuff. Guys like 6pakrunner think we are blaming other Mopar guys for the lack of parts, when in fact we are only pointing out that with the small percentage of Mopar guys interested in doing that type racing, that the ROI on developing such parts is just NOT there and NEVER will be. So blaming.......NO.......pointing out the obvious......yes. That is no knock on guys who are content to run 10s, just stating facts. Yet guys like him try and spin it and pit one group against another........which definitely does our hobby no good.
And then you get to the point that guys DO decide to move on in other directions and guys like him are quick to label us as "sellouts" and "not REAL Mopar guys", while in truth HE is the one who is a "sellout" because he is willing to abandon his fellow Moparites, because we are not doing it like he thinks we should and calls us "whiners"...........yeah, that always helps the situation
Monte
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: MoparBilly]
#1673770
09/21/14 04:35 PM
09/21/14 04:35 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
madscientist
master
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master
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 4,457
Washington
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Quote:
Monte,
When I go to the big shootouts, and I see someone with a mopar bodied car, and an 800+ cubic inch nitrous combination, I have no problem rooting for them. This didn't happen overnight, I had my head stuck in the sand for years. I'm not close minded, just a little stubborn!
Tom,
I understand that desire to use the same car for multiple purposes. I just think T/D is advancing at a pace that makes that difficult, or darn near impossible.
Mad Scientist
You make it sound like Mopar guys are the only ones in love with big dumb torque motors. Every time a great flowing chevy head comes out, that makes great power at 10 grand, somebody figures out how to throw 200 more inches under it and shift at 7500. Is it faster? No. It's more tractable, repeatable, and easier on parts. Not everyone desires to be the tip of the spear.
Eric.
Do you have a problem with the Indy Maxx blocks, other than price point?
When I hear some of you talk about how good the chevy guys have it, I'm reminded of An American Tail with all the mice singing "There are no cats in America". I have many friends who run that stuff, and end up frustrated as well.
Well lets do some math.
The SR20 head is good for about 572 CID and maybe, maybe 8500 with a TR. A 1x4 will lose 3-400 rpm. This considered a "conventional" head for BBC's. What does Chrysler or anyone making aftermarket parts have to compare with this?
8500 rpm's with todays valve train parts is duck soup, IF THE BLOCK WILL TAKE THE CRANK SPEED, ASSOCIATED HARMONICS, FRICTION AND WINDAGE LOSSES.
My math for the 572 is 4.5 bore and 4.5 stroke.
So.....what if we used a 4.7 bore and a 4 inch stroke? You would be 555 CID. You would have less frictional losses (from a longer rod), less windage, less harmonics (frequency and order) and 4-500 more useable RPM.
I could cite a dozen more times similar scenarios. What point would it be? When you consider that all, ALL 2 valve engines are intake valve area limited, you have to make that up by bigger bores to gain more intake valve area. When you max out bore size you add stroke to gain CID. But you didn't add piston area (which is bore squared times .7854 times number of cylinders) so the HP will stay the same. All you did was design an engine that will be harder to hook (especially in the gear changes) and less forgiving on marginal tracks.
There will always be the crowd who think stoke equals HP. I'm am nowhere near as smart as Harold Bettes, so I will leave you with a direct quote from HIM.
Quote "The phrase 'I would rather have more torque than horsepower...' is often heard and misguided" Pretty straight forward isn't it? Here is one more to think about.
Quote "Commit this one to memory.There is an old saying that goes 'there is no replacement for displacement' and although that is novel, it is NOT necessarily the TRUTH"
Emphasis mine.
Just because you think it won't make it true. Horsepower is KING. To dispute this is stupid. C. Alston
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: Eric]
#1673772
09/21/14 04:39 PM
09/21/14 04:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Quote:
Quote:
Monte,
When I go to the big shootouts, and I see someone with a mopar bodied car, and an 800+ cubic inch nitrous combination, I have no problem rooting for them. This didn't happen overnight, I had my head stuck in the sand for years. I'm not close minded, just a little stubborn!
Tom,
I understand that desire to use the same car for multiple purposes. I just think T/D is advancing at a pace that makes that difficult, or darn near impossible.
Mad Scientist
You make it sound like Mopar guys are the only ones in love with big dumb torque motors. Every time a great flowing chevy head comes out, that makes great power at 10 grand, somebody figures out how to throw 200 more inches under it and shift at 7500. Is it faster? No. It's more tractable, repeatable, and easier on parts. Not everyone desires to be the tip of the spear.
Eric.
Do you have a problem with the Indy Maxx blocks, other than price point?
When I hear some of you talk about how good the chevy guys have it, I'm reminded of An American Tail with all the mice singing "There are no cats in America". I have many friends who run that stuff, and end up frustrated as well.
No probs Billy...will probably be my next short block. I guess my issue is the price point..and I'm not saying it's not worth the $...just frustrating to see the options other makes have even at the level I race at.
My thoughts in the other thread were what would someone pay for a decent block and how the heck can we get someone to build one at a "Bowtie" or closer price.
Unfortunately Eric the answer to that question is a simple one, but will never happen...........that answer, sell as many of the Mopar blocks as you do the GM blocks. It is pretty simple and lets use some round numbers for simplicity. If you are going to invest a million dollars in developing and marketing a block.........your end price point target is going to be WAY different if your potential sales are going to be in the thousands instead of the hundreds.
Many seem to think a company should do this just to "help us out".......really, why? These companies are in business to make money right? You think Russ at INDY started this company and specializes in Mopar just because he LOVES them..........hell no. It is because he saw a market that needed something and took advantage. That said, he KNOWS the Mopar market and he KNOWS Mopar guys. If he really thought he could make enough money to warrant producing these more exotic parts he would. Russ and myself have talked about this very issue many times and he would LOVE to develop a big inch capable platform.........but he KNOWS that the ROI is very poor and he would likely NEVER recoup that investment given the very limited customer base for such an engine.
Another is Brodix, who seemingly comes out with a new Chevy or Ford head on a weekly basis. They also cast the B-1 heads for those who don't know and have their own foundry and could likely develop something new CHEAPER than anybody else. Why do you think they haven't done anything with the B-1 platform in eons or made their own Mopar block..........no demand. Dave Rotter, the guy who worked hand in hand with the Koffels on the B-1 program is still at Brodix.
Monte
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: Duner]
#1673773
09/21/14 04:47 PM
09/21/14 04:47 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
Monte_Smith
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,890
North Alabama
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Am I wrong in thinking that the answer is Mopar logo'd valve covers that fit on Bowties?
.. And maybe an alternate front timing cover that mounts a distributor at an angle at the front?
That wasn't well received in Pro-Stock with the "Eicke" heads by the "Purists"..................LOL!!!!
And really, who cares where the distributor is...........because it "looks" right is a poor answer and opens up a whole nother can o worms..........LOL!!!.......Think Predator........haha
Monte
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: Monte_Smith]
#1673774
09/21/14 06:03 PM
09/21/14 06:03 PM
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Anonymous
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Anonymous
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The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view
Monte
Guys like 6pakrunner think we are blaming other Mopar guys for the lack of parts, when in fact we are only pointing out that with the small percentage of Mopar guys interested in doing that type racing, that the ROI on developing such parts is just NOT there and NEVER will be. So blaming.......NO.......pointing out the obvious......yes. That is no knock on guys who are content to run 10s, just stating facts. Yet guys like him try and spin it and pit one group against another........which definitely does our hobby no good.
And then you get to the point that guys DO decide to move on in other directions and guys like him are quick to label us as "sellouts" and "not REAL Mopar guys", while in truth HE is the one who is a "sellout" because he is willing to abandon his fellow Moparites, because we are not doing it like he thinks we should and calls us "whiners"...........yeah, that always helps the situation
Monte
Wow, you must have forgotten what you wrote earlier.....YOU are the one putting people into "groups"...read your comments above....and of course you are at the top, since as you stated before, your are just "wired" that way, to go all out...be the fastest one at the track.....but it turns out you have been wired to not race for 15+ years...for the same reasons as many, i.e. life,kids,cash, etc.
And yes, you have put down and blamed Mopar guys...citing their "purple cam mentality" many times....claiming they don't buy enough blocks/parts...when the mega blocks are sold out !! And you haven't bought any !! LOL !
Even funnier, you haven't bought a set of Predators either !! LOL !
You did rebuild the engine in your daily driver challenger you said, but it probably got less than a "purple cam" ! LOL !
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Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy
[Re: ]
#1673775
09/21/14 09:01 PM
09/21/14 09:01 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
camastomcat
OP
top fuel
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OP
top fuel
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 2,128
Salt Lake City
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Well said Monte, Mad Scientist, and good comments all around, except one. I won't mention names, but he likes this doing sort of thing so I won't play.
I am trying something different this time and think I may actually have it ready to make our last race.
And I understand that business is business. When you take chances in business based on emotion, it's a recipe for failure. Let's take a look at what's been developed fairly recently. Predator heads came out around 10 years ago, and showed some promise but needed a few changes. Changes were made, they were starting to show more promise, and Indy wound up with them.
Indy developed the 600-13 in-line valve head, and a 4.840 Cyl. block to accommodate that head only. It might be a decent head, but very few own them, or the block. I wonder what that development cost was. But Russ ca be such a Richard, that people including me, don't want to buy their stuff.
Koffel has been pretty much selling the B1 and B1/MC head forever. He did try to work with Koleno for a while on an aluminum block/head combo, but we know what happened there.
Then there is Best Machine. They came out with their version of the B1 PSO head, and it makes some good power, but again, no support.
Goodwin builds lot's of high dollar stuff that runs strong, but like Sonny's, it's very high end.
It's a 4.625 stroke, 4.560 bore making 604 CI and change. We'll see how it runs, hopefully this Friday. It adds 180#'s to my dragster though with the steel block at 2060 now. Oh, and good corrected air here is 5500 ft.
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