Engine builders, you have my sympathy

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 01:27 AM

]Its Moparts, what's to understand? If you're out of money you're a cheapskate, if you spend alot you're a snob, and if you're a regular guy you're not innovative enough and complacent.

All of the above

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 03:12 AM

Trying to understand you then - why are you frustrated with stock blocks when you aren't using one?

How about, because there are no more aftermarket steel blocks available, and it really has nothing to do with stock blocks. It has to do with people wanting to make 1000 HP with stock blocks, -1 heads, $3000 aluminum blocks, Chinese crankshafts, and main girdles. It has to do with trying to qualify for T/D with a 4.800 BS N/A motor. I really feel for the N/A Mopar 10.5 tire guys, if they even exist. Ask Bob R., Al, Monte, Steve Gill, Pete Costas, ETC. Unlike some, we like to run something besides our mouth, and make a faster and faster field every year. That's where the frustration is, not to mention spending ten's of thousands for something that qualifies 42 out of 46 cars, then blows up. If that doesn't make it clear to you, I give up trying to explain it.

Posted By: Eric

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 04:25 AM

Quote:

Trying to understand you then - why are you frustrated with stock blocks when you aren't using one?

How about, because there are no more aftermarket steel blocks available, and it really has nothing to do with stock blocks. It has to do with people wanting to make 1000 HP with stock blocks, -1 heads, $3000 aluminum blocks, Chinese crankshafts, and main girdles. It has to do with trying to qualify for T/D with a 4.800 BS N/A motor. I really feel for the N/A Mopar 10.5 tire guys, if they even exist. Ask Bob R., Al, Monte, Steve Gill, Pete Costas, ETC. Unlike some, we like to run something besides our mouth, and make a faster and faster field every year. That's where the frustration is, not to mention spending ten's of thousands for something that qualifies 42 out of 46 cars, then blows up. If that doesn't make it clear to you, I give up trying to explain it.

Some people are just looking for something that will stay together at 700hp and run the numbers. I think that's in where the real issue lies IMHO.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 08:01 AM

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 08:07 AM

Quote:

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

EXACTLY..

Chris..

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 08:19 AM

Quote:

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

That is so well written, that i think you should save it and use it next week when the topic come up again.

Posted By: EchoSixMike

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 09:46 AM

Quote:

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

I suppose it should be pointed out that there is no "mopar/chevy/ford" at that level. It's all custom stuff, as I'm sure you know.

The Mopar crowd, in fact, dominates it all, since there's nothing other than Hemis at the highest levels of drag racing, on whatever fuel, except where the rules force them out. As has been noted before, not least by me, the rules are invariably designed to put butts in the seats and generate revenue. S/F.....Ken M

Posted By: dvw

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 01:49 PM

Just curious. Bob R runs a Chrysler based engine? Though I didn't see the engine, Duane Mills Camaro was sporting angled distributor sticking through the hood, what is it running for power? Both of those cars are pretty darn fast.
Doug

Posted By: Hot 340

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 03:14 PM

Quote:

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

Hey, I'm almost in group 2!

Posted By: MoparBilly

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 03:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

That is so well written, that i think you should save it and use it next week when the topic come up again.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Quote:

It has to do with trying to qualify for T/D with a 4.800 BS N/A motor.

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 03:51 PM

Uh, Tom...that's a really bad business model...all the way around. This is another thing I notice about "Group 3" as Monte calls them. What's the hang up with N/A??? T/D is a power adder class, and more power is being added every day! The chevy guys who can't afford the monster cubic inch stuff have no issues bolting on a blower or a bottle.

Yes, that's right, I'm a tad selfish there and want a bracket car, T/D, and S/C car all in one. I'm not so elite as to be able to own 2 cars. If I went one of those way though, it would probably with NOS so I could achieve the other goals. I would still need an aftermarket block.

Posted By: Eric

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 03:57 PM

Quote:

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

Funny...I bracket race...and god forbid throttle stop race but love seeing the really "fast" cars. How would that change the lack of a block that the vast majority of people desire?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 04:42 PM

Quote:

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

You forgot the part of where the "group three" whines and blames the others because they can't pick up the phone and have the parts they want shipped next day. And they want 20 plus heads to choose from......And blocks available in any bore space and deck height they desire...
And then there are the group four guys that are out there racing instead of whining and blaming others about having no parts.....

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 06:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

You forgot the part of where the "group three" whines and blames the others because they can't pick up the phone and have the parts they want shipped next day. And they want 20 plus heads to choose from......And blocks available in any bore space and deck height they desire...
And then there are the group four guys that are out there racing instead of whining and blaming others about having no parts.....

So in your obvious infinite wisdom of all things drag racing and making big power.........why is it wrong for some of us to desire the same options that the other brands have........Next day???, what are you talking about. The parts I want don't even exist

And of course somebody always brings up fuel HEMIs. Not everybody runs top fuel, so it would be nice to be able to build a motor that can compete equally in OTHER classes without having to bolt turbos or blowers on it.

Dewayne Mills car has a 481X motor in it, which is an Oldsmobile head

Monte

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 06:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

I suppose it should be pointed out that there is no "mopar/chevy/ford" at that level. It's all custom stuff, as I'm sure you know.

Funny you should say that though............as every time we see a nice Mopar with a 5.0 or 5.3 bore space motor in it........it is immediately written off with a "too bad it has a Chevy motor" statement. I myself have been thrown under the bus for stating I was putting one of those "custom" all aluminum motors in my own car and called "not a real Mopar guy" because I was putting a Chevy motor in it..........So obviously not everybody shares your thought process

Monte

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 06:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

You forgot the part of where the "group three" whines and blames the others because they can't pick up the phone and have the parts they want shipped next day. And they want 20 plus heads to choose from......And blocks available in any bore space and deck height they desire...
And then there are the group four guys that are out there racing instead of whining and blaming others about having no parts.....

So in your obvious infinite wisdom of all things drag racing and making big power.........why is it wrong for some of us to desire the same options that the other brands have.

And of course somebody always brings up fuel HEMIs. Not everybody runs top fuel, so it would be nice to be able to build a motor that can compete equally in OTHER classes without having to bolt turbos or blowers on it.

Dewayne Mills car has a 481X motor in it, which is an Oldsmobile head

Monte

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 06:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

I suppose it should be pointed out that there is no "mopar/chevy/ford" at that level. It's all custom stuff, as I'm sure you know.

Funny you should say that though............as every time we see a nice Mopar with a 5.0 or 5.3 bore space motor in it........it is immediately written off with a "too bad it has a Chevy motor" statement. I myself have been thrown under the bus for stating I was putting one of those "custom" all aluminum motors in my own car and called "not a real Mopar guy" because I was putting a Chevy motor in it..........So obviously not everybody shares your thought process

Monte

Seems like the MoPar guys don't get it. You can NOT compete if you have a 4.80 or 4.84 BS when someone else can have a 5.0 or 5.3 BS. It is impossible. I have been harping on this for decades now and guys still want to build 451 CI low decks. The 451 is a great combo is you are stuck with stock bore spacing. After that...just wasting time. I think a great majority of people don't get that HP is directly related to 3 simple things (no particular order here). Actual, useable air flow. Piston area. RPM. Every time you increase the bore, the HP should go up. Every time you increase the stroke, you increase and/or flatten the torque curve.

Since I run a transmission (don't even get me started on how the useless powerglide has destroyed chassis tuning and understanding) I will give up low end torque to gain HP every single time.
Along that line, which combination will be quicker? 425 HP and 825 lb/ft or 650 HP and 525 lb/ft?

Explain why one would be better than the other.

Posted By: LSP

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 07:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

I suppose it should be pointed out that there is no "mopar/chevy/ford" at that level. It's all custom stuff, as I'm sure you know.

Funny you should say that though............as every time we see a nice Mopar with a 5.0 or 5.3 bore space motor in it........it is immediately written off with a "too bad it has a Chevy motor" statement. I myself have been thrown under the bus for stating I was putting one of those "custom" all aluminum motors in my own car and called "not a real Mopar guy" because I was putting a Chevy motor in it..........So obviously not everybody shares your thought process

Monte

Seems like the MoPar guys don't get it. You can NOT compete if you have a 4.80 or 4.84 BS when someone else can have a 5.0 or 5.3 BS. It is impossible.

5.0" stuff's been available for a while, looks just like the latest Pro Stock "Hemi" too -

http://goodwincompetition.com/hemi.htm

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 07:12 PM

Quote:

why is it wrong for some of us to desire the same options that the other brands have........
Monte

The point of many threads on here is the WE all would like the same options AND pricing as the chevy stuff......

Hellooooo...the original poster was blasting Mopar people for wanting blocks that are priced like chevy's are !!! But for Mopar guys to want that is a crime !

Guys like you want to blame every Mopar guy for the situation....

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 07:29 PM

Just wondering, what is the bore spacing on the pro stock hemi head? If someone was to make a tall deck block that would fit that head, would it be a viable option? As i see it, any way you slice it, it will "look" like a chevy engine regardless of what block gets put under the head.

If the pro stock hemi head would serve as a foundation for a big inch mopar engine, lets all get together and have someone start making blocks to fill the void.

I think the guy's name is Goodwin, and they make a billet block for a 5" bore spacing engine, which is what the Mopar pro stock program is built around. Diablo has what I believe is a 655" deal for sled pulling. I want to say it makes around 1350-1400, and the price tag is north of $75,000. He might chime in and correct me, but he will know. Al Alguire also ran 500 CI tamed hemi 99 deal in the 10.5" tire class, he can tell you about that.
That's the point. Al, Boat Racer 572, Steve Gill and I are now working with the predator combos. Boat Racer and Steve Gill, are the only ones I know, and I'm sure there are others although rare, doing it successfully. Indy is useless for information. I have in excess of $1000 just on head gaskets because as I said, Indy is useless with any information/help. If I didn't have help from the other names mentioned here and some I didn't, I might as well be doing this by scratch.
This is where my frustration comes from. Fact, I could have ordered a 665 12 degree GM style race application motor for around $40-45,000 with a dry sump making an easy 1400 + HP. If I needed help, I know at least ten people that have more information and knowledge than Indy, and are ready to help. And if I had my money back, that's what I would do. I've been a Mopar loyalist for over 40 years, but eventually enough is enough. So if or when I decide to sell this stuff and go the easy route, someone will get a sweet deal on this stuff and all the info they want.

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 07:31 PM

Quote:

Quote:

why is it wrong for some of us to desire the same options that the other brands have........
Monte

The point of many threads on here is the WE all would like the same options AND pricing as the chevy stuff......

Hellooooo...the original poster was blasting Mopar people for wanting blocks that are priced like chevy's are !!! But for Mopar guys to want that is a crime !

Guys like you want to blame every Mopar guy for the situation....

6 pack runner PLEASE give us some info on your past racing experience. Do you race, have you ever raced, how fast have you gone while racing, what kind of car do you race if you really do race, where do you race, how long have you raced, do you build your own race engines????????? PLEASE give us so info about yourself so we don't think you are only a keyboard racer.

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 07:34 PM

Man,
You should seek some help dude.......A.D.D. can be medicated.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 07:44 PM

Quote:

The point of many threads on here is the WE all would like the same options AND pricing as the chevy stuff......

Hellooooo...the original poster was blasting Mopar people for wanting blocks that are priced like chevy's are !!! But for Mopar guys to want that is a crime !

Guys like you want to blame every Mopar guy for the situation....

Man,
You should seek some help dude.......A.D.D. can be medicated.

Why, because I don't whine and blame others because I can't get the parts I want for the price I wanna pay ?

Posted By: MoparBilly

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 07:51 PM

Monte,
When I go to the big shootouts, and I see someone with a mopar bodied car, and an 800+ cubic inch nitrous combination, I have no problem rooting for them. This didn't happen overnight, I had my head stuck in the sand for years. I'm not close minded, just a little stubborn!

Tom,
I understand that desire to use the same car for multiple purposes. I just think T/D is advancing at a pace that makes that difficult, or darn near impossible.

Mad Scientist
You make it sound like Mopar guys are the only ones in love with big dumb torque motors. Every time a great flowing chevy head comes out, that makes great power at 10 grand, somebody figures out how to throw 200 more inches under it and shift at 7500. Is it faster? No. It's more tractable, repeatable, and easier on parts. Not everyone desires to be the tip of the spear.

Eric.
Do you have a problem with the Indy Maxx blocks, other than price point?

When I hear some of you talk about how good the chevy guys have it, I'm reminded of An American Tail with all the mice singing "There are no cats in America". I have many friends who run that stuff, and end up frustrated as well.

Posted By: Eric

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 08:17 PM

Quote:

Monte,
When I go to the big shootouts, and I see someone with a mopar bodied car, and an 800+ cubic inch nitrous combination, I have no problem rooting for them. This didn't happen overnight, I had my head stuck in the sand for years. I'm not close minded, just a little stubborn!

Tom,
I understand that desire to use the same car for multiple purposes. I just think T/D is advancing at a pace that makes that difficult, or darn near impossible.

Mad Scientist
You make it sound like Mopar guys are the only ones in love with big dumb torque motors. Every time a great flowing chevy head comes out, that makes great power at 10 grand, somebody figures out how to throw 200 more inches under it and shift at 7500. Is it faster? No. It's more tractable, repeatable, and easier on parts. Not everyone desires to be the tip of the spear.

Eric.
Do you have a problem with the Indy Maxx blocks, other than price point?

When I hear some of you talk about how good the chevy guys have it, I'm reminded of An American Tail with all the mice singing "There are no cats in America". I have many friends who run that stuff, and end up frustrated as well.

No probs Billy...will probably be my next short block. I guess my issue is the price point..and I'm not saying it's not worth the $...just frustrating to see the options other makes have even at the level I race at.

My thoughts in the other thread were what would someone pay for a decent block and how the heck can we get someone to build one at a "Bowtie" or closer price.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 08:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

You forgot the part of where the "group three" whines and blames the others because they can't pick up the phone and have the parts they want shipped next day. And they want 20 plus heads to choose from......And blocks available in any bore space and deck height they desire...
And then there are the group four guys that are out there racing instead of whining and blaming others about having no parts.....

So in your obvious infinite wisdom of all things drag racing and making big power.........why is it wrong for some of us to desire the same options that the other brands have.

And of course somebody always brings up fuel HEMIs. Not everybody runs top fuel, so it would be nice to be able to build a motor that can compete equally in OTHER classes without having to bolt turbos or blowers on it.

Dewayne Mills car has a 481X motor in it, which is an Oldsmobile head

Monte

Just wondering, what is the bore spacing on the pro stock hemi head? If someone was to make a tall deck block that would fit that head, would it be a viable option? As i see it, any way you slice it, it will "look" like a chevy engine regardless of what block gets put under the head.

If the pro stock hemi head would serve as a foundation for a big inch mopar engine, lets all get together and have someone start making blocks to fill the void.

Pro-Stock is limited to a 4.900 bore space and has been for years. While it would be nice, a 4.900 motor is pretty much useless except for Pro-Stock, as you are still limited on bore size and parts are non existent. And while the Pro-Stock HEMI is NOT a REAL HEMI, the design is still not ideal for other classes, as that head is specifically designed for 500" racing. There were some 5.0 Pro-Stock MEMI heads at one time for IHRA, they were pretty much one off stuff and even if you had one, you would be WAY behind on technology there. The baddest N/A motors on the planet, run in big inch IHRA Pro-Stock trim and that is where the Sonnys head rules the roost. And before anybody chimes in with "that is a HEMI".......that head resembles a Chrysler HEMI about as much as a Briggs and Stratton head does. For the MAJORITY of classes where big power and inches are the answer, a WEDGE head is the choice of 99% of guys. Even in what are just considered "fast bracket" classes these days, Top Sportsman and Top Dragster, big engines are the norm, with a 632 being extremely small these days. The Ford and Chevy guys who do still have those small motors, have to really push that stuff hard to make those fields these days. And that is what camastomcat is referring to. If THOSE guys are struggling, what chance do you have with the 20+ year old technology the Mopar crowd is saddled with? The answer is not much. And we are talking to JUST MAKE the field at many big races, much less be near the top. In these classes, 5.0 bore space 700" motors are the norm and the 5.300 stuff is becoming more and more prevalent.

Now you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that we(Mopar guys) are a VERY small percentage of the drag racing scene and as such the demand for top of the line parts will be VERY small, because there just aren't enough interested in doing that type stuff. Guys like 6pakrunner think we are blaming other Mopar guys for the lack of parts, when in fact we are only pointing out that with the small percentage of Mopar guys interested in doing that type racing, that the ROI on developing such parts is just NOT there and NEVER will be. So blaming.......NO.......pointing out the obvious......yes. That is no knock on guys who are content to run 10s, just stating facts. Yet guys like him try and spin it and pit one group against another........which definitely does our hobby no good.

And then you get to the point that guys DO decide to move on in other directions and guys like him are quick to label us as "sellouts" and "not REAL Mopar guys", while in truth HE is the one who is a "sellout" because he is willing to abandon his fellow Moparites, because we are not doing it like he thinks we should and calls us "whiners"...........yeah, that always helps the situation

Monte

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 08:35 PM

Quote:

Monte,
When I go to the big shootouts, and I see someone with a mopar bodied car, and an 800+ cubic inch nitrous combination, I have no problem rooting for them. This didn't happen overnight, I had my head stuck in the sand for years. I'm not close minded, just a little stubborn!

Tom,
I understand that desire to use the same car for multiple purposes. I just think T/D is advancing at a pace that makes that difficult, or darn near impossible.

Mad Scientist
You make it sound like Mopar guys are the only ones in love with big dumb torque motors. Every time a great flowing chevy head comes out, that makes great power at 10 grand, somebody figures out how to throw 200 more inches under it and shift at 7500. Is it faster? No. It's more tractable, repeatable, and easier on parts. Not everyone desires to be the tip of the spear.

Eric.
Do you have a problem with the Indy Maxx blocks, other than price point?

When I hear some of you talk about how good the chevy guys have it, I'm reminded of An American Tail with all the mice singing "There are no cats in America". I have many friends who run that stuff, and end up frustrated as well.

Well lets do some math.
The SR20 head is good for about 572 CID and maybe, maybe 8500 with a TR. A 1x4 will lose 3-400 rpm. This considered a "conventional" head for BBC's. What does Chrysler or anyone making aftermarket parts have to compare with this?
8500 rpm's with todays valve train parts is duck soup, IF THE BLOCK WILL TAKE THE CRANK SPEED, ASSOCIATED HARMONICS, FRICTION AND WINDAGE LOSSES.
My math for the 572 is 4.5 bore and 4.5 stroke.
So.....what if we used a 4.7 bore and a 4 inch stroke? You would be 555 CID. You would have less frictional losses (from a longer rod), less windage, less harmonics (frequency and order) and 4-500 more useable RPM.

I could cite a dozen more times similar scenarios. What point would it be? When you consider that all, ALL 2 valve engines are intake valve area limited, you have to make that up by bigger bores to gain more intake valve area. When you max out bore size you add stroke to gain CID. But you didn't add piston area (which is bore squared times .7854 times number of cylinders) so the HP will stay the same. All you did was design an engine that will be harder to hook (especially in the gear changes) and less forgiving on marginal tracks.

There will always be the crowd who think stoke equals HP. I'm am nowhere near as smart as Harold Bettes, so I will leave you with a direct quote from HIM.
Quote "The phrase 'I would rather have more torque than horsepower...' is often heard and misguided" Pretty straight forward isn't it? Here is one more to think about.
Quote "Commit this one to memory.There is an old saying that goes 'there is no replacement for displacement' and although that is novel, it is NOT necessarily the TRUTH"
Emphasis mine.

Posted By: Duner

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 08:37 PM

Am I wrong in thinking that the answer is Mopar logo'd valve covers that fit on Bowties?

.. And maybe an alternate front timing cover that mounts a distributor at an angle at the front?

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 08:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Monte,
When I go to the big shootouts, and I see someone with a mopar bodied car, and an 800+ cubic inch nitrous combination, I have no problem rooting for them. This didn't happen overnight, I had my head stuck in the sand for years. I'm not close minded, just a little stubborn!

Tom,
I understand that desire to use the same car for multiple purposes. I just think T/D is advancing at a pace that makes that difficult, or darn near impossible.

Mad Scientist
You make it sound like Mopar guys are the only ones in love with big dumb torque motors. Every time a great flowing chevy head comes out, that makes great power at 10 grand, somebody figures out how to throw 200 more inches under it and shift at 7500. Is it faster? No. It's more tractable, repeatable, and easier on parts. Not everyone desires to be the tip of the spear.

Eric.
Do you have a problem with the Indy Maxx blocks, other than price point?

When I hear some of you talk about how good the chevy guys have it, I'm reminded of An American Tail with all the mice singing "There are no cats in America". I have many friends who run that stuff, and end up frustrated as well.

No probs Billy...will probably be my next short block. I guess my issue is the price point..and I'm not saying it's not worth the $...just frustrating to see the options other makes have even at the level I race at.

My thoughts in the other thread were what would someone pay for a decent block and how the heck can we get someone to build one at a "Bowtie" or closer price.

Unfortunately Eric the answer to that question is a simple one, but will never happen...........that answer, sell as many of the Mopar blocks as you do the GM blocks. It is pretty simple and lets use some round numbers for simplicity. If you are going to invest a million dollars in developing and marketing a block.........your end price point target is going to be WAY different if your potential sales are going to be in the thousands instead of the hundreds.

Many seem to think a company should do this just to "help us out".......really, why? These companies are in business to make money right? You think Russ at INDY started this company and specializes in Mopar just because he LOVES them..........hell no. It is because he saw a market that needed something and took advantage. That said, he KNOWS the Mopar market and he KNOWS Mopar guys. If he really thought he could make enough money to warrant producing these more exotic parts he would. Russ and myself have talked about this very issue many times and he would LOVE to develop a big inch capable platform.........but he KNOWS that the ROI is very poor and he would likely NEVER recoup that investment given the very limited customer base for such an engine.

Another is Brodix, who seemingly comes out with a new Chevy or Ford head on a weekly basis. They also cast the B-1 heads for those who don't know and have their own foundry and could likely develop something new CHEAPER than anybody else. Why do you think they haven't done anything with the B-1 platform in eons or made their own Mopar block..........no demand. Dave Rotter, the guy who worked hand in hand with the Koffels on the B-1 program is still at Brodix.

Monte

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 08:47 PM

Quote:

Am I wrong in thinking that the answer is Mopar logo'd valve covers that fit on Bowties?

.. And maybe an alternate front timing cover that mounts a distributor at an angle at the front?

That wasn't well received in Pro-Stock with the "Eicke" heads by the "Purists"..................LOL!!!!

And really, who cares where the distributor is...........because it "looks" right is a poor answer and opens up a whole nother can o worms..........LOL!!!.......Think Predator........haha

Monte

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/21/14 10:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

Guys like 6pakrunner think we are blaming other Mopar guys for the lack of parts, when in fact we are only pointing out that with the small percentage of Mopar guys interested in doing that type racing, that the ROI on developing such parts is just NOT there and NEVER will be. So blaming.......NO.......pointing out the obvious......yes. That is no knock on guys who are content to run 10s, just stating facts. Yet guys like him try and spin it and pit one group against another........which definitely does our hobby no good.

And then you get to the point that guys DO decide to move on in other directions and guys like him are quick to label us as "sellouts" and "not REAL Mopar guys", while in truth HE is the one who is a "sellout" because he is willing to abandon his fellow Moparites, because we are not doing it like he thinks we should and calls us "whiners"...........yeah, that always helps the situation

Monte

Wow, you must have forgotten what you wrote earlier.....YOU are the one putting people into "groups"...read your comments above....and of course you are at the top, since as you stated before, your are just "wired" that way, to go all out...be the fastest one at the track.....but it turns out you have been wired to not race for 15+ years...for the same reasons as many, i.e. life,kids,cash, etc.

And yes, you have put down and blamed Mopar guys...citing their "purple cam mentality" many times....claiming they don't buy enough blocks/parts...when the mega blocks are sold out !! And you haven't bought any !! LOL !

Even funnier, you haven't bought a set of Predators either !! LOL !

You did rebuild the engine in your daily driver challenger you said, but it probably got less than a "purple cam" ! LOL !

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 01:01 AM

Well said Monte, Mad Scientist, and good comments all around, except one. I won't mention names, but he likes this doing sort of thing so I won't play.
I am trying something different this time and think I may actually have it ready to make our last race.
And I understand that business is business. When you take chances in business based on emotion, it's a recipe for failure. Let's take a look at what's been developed fairly recently. Predator heads came out around 10 years ago, and showed some promise but needed a few changes. Changes were made, they were starting to show more promise, and Indy wound up with them.
Indy developed the 600-13 in-line valve head, and a 4.840 Cyl. block to accommodate that head only. It might be a decent head, but very few own them, or the block. I wonder what that development cost was. But Russ ca be such a Richard, that people including me, don't want to buy their stuff.
Koffel has been pretty much selling the B1 and B1/MC head forever. He did try to work with Koleno for a while on an aluminum block/head combo, but we know what happened there.
Then there is Best Machine. They came out with their version of the B1 PSO head, and it makes some good power, but again, no support.
Goodwin builds lot's of high dollar stuff that runs strong, but like Sonny's, it's very high end.
It's a 4.625 stroke, 4.560 bore making 604 CI and change. We'll see how it runs, hopefully this Friday. It adds 180#'s to my dragster though with the steel block at 2060 now. Oh, and good corrected air here is 5500 ft.

Posted By: Gary Robbins

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 01:24 AM

My take on this is you get in where you fit in...I bought the engine in my car used originally from a guy running T/D and he was running 6.90 with 100 shot...He decided to go with a blown Hemi and his loss was my gain !!!
I have chosen to run small tire heads-up classes that require conventional heads and have no problem being competitive with 20yr old B1 originals despite being told by all the gurus that it want work !!
In X275 trim I've only been 4.80'S @ 3225# with a 44 jet with lots of tuning left and see no problem running 4.70'S...Anyone that follows X275 knows it takes 4.50-4.60's at about 4-6 big races a year and the rest of the time 4.70's make you a player !!
Most All the really fast NOS guys use a 60+ jet and will burn their stuff down if necessary to run the number !!
I'm probably down 100-125 hp N/A compared the really fast guys and when I get get everything out of this combo I have a set of PSO heads on the shelf which should put me right where i need to be !!

If I wanted to run outlaw classes I would just do a AJE Hemi and be done with it !!

Posted By: Mopar-Al

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 01:33 AM

Wow 6pk thanks for chiming in on all the questions you were asked straight up out front. You seem to enjoy just taking little bits of this post here n there to try to belittle some on here. I say so what. Who cares. Eventually there may be someone in the Mopar interest, that has the money to build produce something for the Mopar top runners. Most here on the site as a majority are handicapped racers. They race themselves to run a number. Some here run a class set number. Me myself, I have no money, and don't know nothing or anything about what it takes to build and race cars. I do know that when I get to go to the races, I get to see a sport that has been slowly dying, stands empty and a bunch of local dedicated people just having fun by running what they brung to win a little money on a saturday night or just get out with the guys and enjoy the sport. The ones that are posting on this topic, do have the money to buy what they want , it's just not there yet. ok So be it. What I just can't understand is who died and made you king biatch around here to just keep irritation going? The upper level racers will eventually get something handed down to them in the meantime, the rest are happy to have what we have to enjoy what drag racing was all about. Sooner or later there will be a cap and from what I see , most are going back to handicap racing anyways and enjoying the sport for what it used to be, having fun. The key to racing around here with what we have in any brand name is trying to get a win light with 2 time trials and going rounds to the end with your dial in on a window.

You just seem to be too irritating to post up on this board. It wasn't created to start trying to belittle anyone, it was to share our adventures and acomplishments on what we have to work with. Im not trying to bash you or anyone else, far from it. I enjoy a sport, and like to read what others have been doing with their projects on their budjets. Being the fastest and quickest isnt all that it's cracked up to be. Eventually you turn into a slave instead of loving what you like to do. If had enough money to build whatever I wanted, I would still be bracket racing. It's relaxing and brings out family n fun for the weekend.

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 01:40 AM

I think he's a keyboard racer and I surly hope he has more in his back pocket that the cars in his sig.

Posted By: racerhog

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 01:40 AM

So we all do the best we can with what we have, and thats it.....
We are the Dodge Brothers.....

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 04:34 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

Guys like 6pakrunner think we are blaming other Mopar guys for the lack of parts, when in fact we are only pointing out that with the small percentage of Mopar guys interested in doing that type racing, that the ROI on developing such parts is just NOT there and NEVER will be. So blaming.......NO.......pointing out the obvious......yes. That is no knock on guys who are content to run 10s, just stating facts. Yet guys like him try and spin it and pit one group against another........which definitely does our hobby no good.

And then you get to the point that guys DO decide to move on in other directions and guys like him are quick to label us as "sellouts" and "not REAL Mopar guys", while in truth HE is the one who is a "sellout" because he is willing to abandon his fellow Moparites, because we are not doing it like he thinks we should and calls us "whiners"...........yeah, that always helps the situation

Monte

Wow, you must have forgotten what you wrote earlier.....YOU are the one putting people into "groups"...read your comments above....and of course you are at the top, since as you stated before, your are just "wired" that way, to go all out...be the fastest one at the track.....but it turns out you have been wired to not race for 15+ years...for the same reasons as many, i.e. life,kids,cash, etc.

And yes, you have put down and blamed Mopar guys...citing their "purple cam mentality" many times....claiming they don't buy enough blocks/parts...when the mega blocks are sold out !! And you haven't bought any !! LOL !

Even funnier, you haven't bought a set of Predators either !! LOL !

You did rebuild the engine in your daily driver challenger you said, but it probably got less than a "purple cam" ! LOL !

How do YOU know what I have ever bought dipsh%t.........answer, you DON'T. The last motor in my GTX was a B-1 headed, Mega-Block motor. I have purchased likely a dozen or so Mega-Blocks over the years, for my own or customer builds. Along with some INDY blocks and a couple KBs. Probably bought more B-1 and INDY castings than you have ever seen. I have built some Predator headed motors, but no, not for myself because the 4.800 bore space deal won't get it done for what I want to do. Steve Gill intended to do a 4.840 Predator and I told him I would take the first two sets he made, but that never came to fruition

The last motor I was building for my GTX, before they changed the rules in the class and totally obsoleted what I was doing before I finished it, was a custom Donovan low deck block, drilled for a set of Wayne County bolt pattern, 4.840 B-1 TS heads. The REASON I opted for the Donovan, Chevy based block, was because one of the current Mopar alum block makers had promised to make me a custom low deck block like I wanted, but after waiting over a year and NO progress made on it, I called Donovan and had one in 3 months. So I guess you are right......seems I have NEVER supported the hobby at all by buying, or TRYING to buy my share of higher end stuff. As a matter of fact, the TS heads are at Buck Racing Engines right now getting some updates and I have talked to Brodix about possibly building me a custom block for these heads. So why not use the Donovan you might ask......answer, because it was a custom 9.200 low deck, because the rules at the time were weight per cube and I was building a big bore short stroke motor. So that is a custom $6000 door stop that nobody else has any use for, along with a custom crank, rods, pistons, custom one off billet cam and hand made single 4 CAST intake, because the rules called for that. When you have that much money invested in a program and it gets obsoleted before you finish it, that kinda takes the wind out of your sails and especially your bank account........so THAT is the main reason the GTX hasn't seen the track in years

My plan is a 10.400 deck block with the TS heads and either 632 or 648 cubes. THAT is the motor that will eventually go into the GTX, but until that is finished, the 632 Chevy that I have sitting in the floor, that you seem to be butthurt about will be in the car until then.

And NO, the motor in my Challenger does NOT have a purple cam in it. Since I prefer stuff designed in this century, it has a custom ground hydraulic roller, alum heads, air, power steering and EFI.

So..........tell us what YOU have done to support the hobby there lately big boy.

Monte

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 04:45 AM

And yes, I do define racers and hobbyists in "groups" and I doubt anyone but YOU has an issue with that. I would say bracket racers are a "group". Class racers are a "group". Heads up racers would be a "group". Resto guys would be a "group" and so on..........so exactly what is your issue with that. And believe it or not, some of us might be a part of MULTIPLE groups..........oh the horror of it. "Cats and Dogs" living together, oh its total anarchy...........LOL!!!

I considered putting you on ignore, just as Mr P and I am sure MANY others have, but you are just too much fun. The more you post, the more.........well, you know, or at least the rest of us do..........LOL!!!

Monte

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 05:32 AM

Quote:

And yes, I do define racers and hobbyists in "groups" and I doubt anyone but YOU has an issue with that. I would say bracket racers are a "group". Class racers are a "group". Heads up racers would be a "group". Resto guys would be a "group" and so on..........so exactly what is your issue with that. And believe it or not, some of us might be a part of MULTIPLE groups..........oh the horror of it. "Cats and Dogs" living together, oh its total anarchy...........LOL!!!

I considered putting you on ignore, just as Mr P and I am sure MANY others have, but you are just too much fun. The more you post, the more.........well, you know, or at least the rest of us do..........LOL!!!

Monte

You can't recall what you say from one post to the next...LOL...a month ago you said you hadn't raced in 15+ years because of life, kids, divorce, new houses, etc......now it's soley because you chose the wrong engine combo.....okkkk....and all these megablocks you have bought, you never mentioned before, have never mentioned having any other race car besides your GTX....

YOU have made it clear previously that you wouldn't waste your time/money on a Predator, or any 4.8 bs engine....Now you are claiming to ???? Try and stick to ONE story please.....

The last time that I know of that you entered a race, you whacked the throttle in reverse and backed into a guy in the staging lanes....

I have no problem with whatever engine you put in your GTX....never have....I am more interested in the cars like Gary Robbins has, very very impressive to me, and he probably talks the least, and just gits-r-dun...

My only issue with you, is your constantly belittling Mopar guys as cheap dinosaurs, for not buying the same parts you claim aren't good enough for you !! I find that ironic and hypocritical...

This whole post is because a few Mopar guys talked about how nice it would be to have blocks available priced similar to chevy blocks....and the bashing began....

Most of your posts are very interesting, straight to the point, make perfect sense.....

Posted By: slammedR/T

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:08 AM

Maybe if Mopar guys had an option, they wouldn't go with a BBC motor?
I understand why a mopar guy would though, way cheaper way more support and even though I hate it I don't blame them. I will still cheer for the BBC mopar over all the other ford and chevy cars.

Also Monte, what about Kevin Mullins car? he is running a twin turbo Hemi like a 521 or something like that. He held the radial tire record for a while, twin turbo hemi mustang

Posted By: Diablo

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:21 AM

Quote:

Just wondering, what is the bore spacing on the pro stock hemi head? If someone was to make a tall deck block that would fit that head, would it be a viable option? As i see it, any way you slice it, it will "look" like a chevy engine regardless of what block gets put under the head.

If the pro stock hemi head would serve as a foundation for a big inch mopar engine, lets all get together and have someone start making blocks to fill the void.

I think the guy's name is Goodwin, and they make a billet block for a 5" bore spacing engine, which is what the Mopar pro stock program is built around. Diablo has what I believe is a 655" deal for sled pulling. I want to say it makes around 1350-1400, and the price tag is north of $75,000. He might chime in and correct me, but he will know. Al Alguire also ran 500 CI tamed hemi 99 deal in the 10.5" tire class, he can tell you about that.
That's the point. Al, Boat Racer 572, Steve Gill and I are now working with the predator combos. Boat Racer and Steve Gill, are the only ones I know, and I'm sure there are others although rare, doing it successfully. Indy is useless for information. I have in excess of $1000 just on head gaskets because as I said, Indy is useless with any information/help. If I didn't have help from the other names mentioned here and some I didn't, I might as well be doing this by scratch.
This is where my frustration comes from. Fact, I could have ordered a 665 12 degree GM style race application motor for around $40-45,000 with a dry sump making an easy 1400 + HP. If I needed help, I know at least ten people that have more information and knowledge than Indy, and are ready to help. And if I had my money back, that's what I would do. I've been a Mopar loyalist for over 40 years, but eventually enough is enough. So if or when I decide to sell this stuff and go the easy route, someone will get a sweet deal on this stuff and all the info they want.

Just to chime in Quickly, We have Ran a good chunk of engines over the past 7-8 years and our last two have come From Goodwin. We have done the refreshes to the engines but they were originally built by Goodwin. Both have been 5" Bore space 650ci engines. The first one used IHRA 5" Hemi heads which were blanks that Goodwin worked with. Goodwin used a cast Donovan 5" block for that engine. There are a few of the cast headed cast block Goodwin engines out there. Ours made mid 1400hp. I sold that to a Drag racer around Chicago. This season we Ran Goodwins 5" Billet engine. He developed the head and block but the main design idea was from the 99 head. They look and are a lot different then a Sonny or Schmidt Hemi head. Both head and block are Billet CNC'ed in house. Top notch engine and its been awhile since we had 100% faith in the engine each run. Could not say that back when we were running the B1-TS engines. The new Billet engines are over 1600hp now.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:38 AM

Quote:

Quote:

And yes, I do define racers and hobbyists in "groups" and I doubt anyone but YOU has an issue with that. I would say bracket racers are a "group". Class racers are a "group". Heads up racers would be a "group". Resto guys would be a "group" and so on..........so exactly what is your issue with that. And believe it or not, some of us might be a part of MULTIPLE groups..........oh the horror of it. "Cats and Dogs" living together, oh its total anarchy...........LOL!!!

I considered putting you on ignore, just as Mr P and I am sure MANY others have, but you are just too much fun. The more you post, the more.........well, you know, or at least the rest of us do..........LOL!!!

Monte

You can't recall what you say from one post to the next...LOL...a month ago you said you hadn't raced in 15+ years because of life, kids, divorce, new houses, etc......now it's soley because you chose the wrong engine combo.....okkkk....and all these megablocks you have bought, you never mentioned before, have never mentioned having any other race car besides your GTX....

YOU have made it clear previously that you wouldn't waste your time/money on a Predator, or any 4.8 bs engine....Now you are claiming to ???? Try and stick to ONE story please.....

The last time that I know of that you entered a race, you whacked the throttle in reverse and backed into a guy in the staging lanes....

I have no problem with whatever engine you put in your GTX....never have....I am more interested in the cars like Gary Robbins has, very very impressive to me, and he probably talks the least, and just gits-r-dun...

My only issue with you, is your constantly belittling Mopar guys as cheap dinosaurs, for not buying the same parts you claim aren't good enough for you !! I find that ironic and hypocritical...

This whole post is because a few Mopar guys talked about how nice it would be to have blocks available priced similar to chevy blocks....and the bashing began....

Most of your posts are very interesting, straight to the point, make perfect sense.....

I recall EXACTLY what I say, it's just your attempts to pick and choose statements here and there to TRY and get your point across have you confused. I NEVER said I hadn't raced in 15 years. I SAID I hadn't raced my GTX in 15 years. I drive cars for other people all the time and always have. I also didn't realize I was required to keep you informed of what I do and don't, or buy and don't.

My engine combo was made obsolete by a rules change, so I would hardly call that choosing the wrong combo. Hard to know in the moment that the direction of a class will be totally changed BEFORE it happens. Then being out all that money, plus LIFE getting in the way.......NO, I couldn't afford at THAT time to start all over on a new combo, plus was a little disillusioned by the whole thing.

And NO, me personally I am NOT interested in building a stock 4.800 bore space Mopar RACE CAR motor for my own use in my GTX at this time.............but didn't realize I wasn't allowed to buy parts and build those motors for other people who want them or put them in my OTHER cars. I will be sure and check with you in the future and keep you abreast of what parts I buy, who for and what car they will be in.

I actually WAS going to build a 572 B-1 PSO motor for X275 racing like Gary does and actually ORDERED a complete set of heads more than two years ago from a shop. I built a new car for the class and had everything to build the motor EXCEPT the heads. STILL don't have those heads, so I got fed up waiting and with empty promises, somebody else wanted the car and the parts I had, so I moved it. Sorry I failed to keep you updated on that as well.

If you noticed, I was building a 4.840 bore space Mopar motor 15 years ago, so it would appear obvious, that for MY OWN desires, I was done with the 4.800 stuff a LONG time ago for MY OWN race car. But with X275 being popular and one of the FEW heads up classes a Mopar can be somewhat of a player, I was going to get in there but it didn't work out.

So after that, as stated, I decided to do something with the 4.840 parts I DO have and that is where I stand. But since I ain't made of money and the fact that these heads will require a custom block, with one off lifter bore spacing and head bolt pattern, plus a custom billet cam, custom intake etc, it's not like I can throw it together in a couple months...........plus I have this thing called a JOB that keeps me kinda busy helping OTHER people race their cars. I have 26 events on my schedule this year. That works out to every other weekend on the whole, in case math is not your strong suit.

And I NEVER said the current parts were not good enough for me.......WHAT I SAID WAS there are no current parts available for what I would like to build for my GTX............but feel free to spin that to make it sound however you like.

The Pro-Mod that backed into the guy behind me in the lanes, had a Lenco in it. If you KNEW anything about a Lenco equipped car, you would know that you fire it in neutral and put the car in reverse before putting it in forward, because reverse is synchronized and forward isn't. When I depressed the clutch and moved the reverser lever, it sheared an arm off the crossshaft and I essentially had no clutch. And since a blown car idles at around 2500, it lurched rearward. No "throttle whacking" required...........So it appears once again that you have NO CLUE as to what you speak.............but you keep on trying, you will eventually get one right............LOL!!

Oh yeah..........forgot. I won a local X275 race here a couple weeks ago driving a customers car that I was working on in the shop. Sorry I didn't tell you about that as well

Monte

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:49 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Just wondering, what is the bore spacing on the pro stock hemi head? If someone was to make a tall deck block that would fit that head, would it be a viable option? As i see it, any way you slice it, it will "look" like a chevy engine regardless of what block gets put under the head.

If the pro stock hemi head would serve as a foundation for a big inch mopar engine, lets all get together and have someone start making blocks to fill the void.

I think the guy's name is Goodwin, and they make a billet block for a 5" bore spacing engine, which is what the Mopar pro stock program is built around. Diablo has what I believe is a 655" deal for sled pulling. I want to say it makes around 1350-1400, and the price tag is north of $75,000. He might chime in and correct me, but he will know. Al Alguire also ran 500 CI tamed hemi 99 deal in the 10.5" tire class, he can tell you about that.
That's the point. Al, Boat Racer 572, Steve Gill and I are now working with the predator combos. Boat Racer and Steve Gill, are the only ones I know, and I'm sure there are others although rare, doing it successfully. Indy is useless for information. I have in excess of $1000 just on head gaskets because as I said, Indy is useless with any information/help. If I didn't have help from the other names mentioned here and some I didn't, I might as well be doing this by scratch.
This is where my frustration comes from. Fact, I could have ordered a 665 12 degree GM style race application motor for around $40-45,000 with a dry sump making an easy 1400 + HP. If I needed help, I know at least ten people that have more information and knowledge than Indy, and are ready to help. And if I had my money back, that's what I would do. I've been a Mopar loyalist for over 40 years, but eventually enough is enough. So if or when I decide to sell this stuff and go the easy route, someone will get a sweet deal on this stuff and all the info they want.

Just to chime in Quickly, We have Ran a good chunk of engines over the past 7-8 years and our last two have come From Goodwin. We have done the refreshes to the engines but they were originally built by Goodwin. Both have been 5" Bore space 650ci engines. The first one used IHRA 5" Hemi heads which were blanks that Goodwin worked with. Goodwin used a cast Donovan 5" block for that engine. There are a few of the cast headed cast block Goodwin engines out there. Ours made mid 1400hp. I sold that to a Drag racer around Chicago. This season we Ran Goodwins 5" Billet engine. He developed the head and block but the main design idea was from the 99 head. They look and are a lot different then a Sonny or Schmidt Hemi head. Both head and block are Billet CNC'ed in house. Top notch engine and its been awhile since we had 100% faith in the engine each run. Could not say that back when we were running the B1-TS engines. The new Billet engines are over 1600hp now.

Wish he had a Wedge head program...........but at that level, being 5.0 spacing and essentially using Chevy pattern blocks.........I guess it would serve no purpose. Wonder if he would be interested in developing a "nitrous friendly" chamber design for his heads. Since they are essentially a "twisted wedge" with a plug in the center, it would likely work, but would take a bit of development to work on a 4.700 bore or so.

What bore are your motors??

Monte

Posted By: EchoSixMike

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:50 AM

Monte, why does this six pack guy have such a hard-on for you? Did he catch you in bed with his wife or something? This is crap that belongs on the bullet.

There's a 4.90 BS /B-1TS combo for sale here in Chicago. S/F.....Ken M

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:55 AM

Quote:

Well all I can add is WOW...It is no wonder we get what we get.

You guys make me want to sell my Plymouth and buy a Chevelle.

I'm no racer, I like fast street/strip cars with full interiors. I like everything but I went Mopar because I thought the RB engine makes really good power for the money and are durable, but I'm only looking for around 600 hp max out of a street engine.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 07:05 AM

Quote:

Monte, why does this six pack guy have such a hard-on for you? Did he catch you in bed with his wife or something? This is crap that belongs on the bullet.

There's a 4.90 BS /B-1TS combo for sale here in Chicago. S/F.....Ken M

No idea........have no clue who he even is. Just showed up one day bashing me at every turn. It's all good though. Haters gonna hate...........LOL!!!

I've heard about that motor, but the move from 4.840 to 4.900 just doesn't gain you much in bore size, which is what you really need. You can go 4.750 bore in a billet 5.0 bore space block...........now just need some 5.0 bore space TS heads to go on that........I wish.........LOL!!!

Monte

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 07:07 AM

Quote:

Monte, why does this six pack guy have such a hard-on for you? Did he catch you in bed with his wife or something? This is crap that belongs on the bullet.

There's a 4.90 BS /B-1TS combo for sale here in Chicago. S/F.....Ken M

I dont know why Monte even pays any attention to him..
the IGNORE button works great... he doesnt even race
or own any type of race car but he loves coming into
the race section and telling everyone how its done..
and he has NEVER done anything

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 07:39 AM

FWIW my 99 was a 4.700" bore deal. Although as has been mentioned the only "readily" available blocks are very short deck height, 9" and under so cubes are very limited. About 550" is it. Also as pointed out they are pretty purpose built pieces although I know Steve Matusek runs a mirror motored Ford with twins. But I do not know anything about it. Suspect it is a billet block deal. The heads certainly have a tendency to crack in the chamber in NA applications.

As for our dear friend well lets just say you are not the only apple in his eye Monte

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 07:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Monte, why does this six pack guy have such a hard-on for you? Did he catch you in bed with his wife or something? This is crap that belongs on the bullet.

There's a 4.90 BS /B-1TS combo for sale here in Chicago. S/F.....Ken M

I dont know why Monte even pays any attention to him..
the IGNORE button works great... he doesnt even race
or own any type of race car but he loves coming into
the race section and telling everyone how its done..
and he has NEVER done anything

He rips me and others at every turn and has been asked repeatedly to expound on his exploits of racing and what HE does to support the hobby and the aftermarket and all we get is............."crickets"...........on that subject.........LOL!!

I reply, because for some reason he seems to think he knows stuff about me, what I have done and haven't done.........and while he is free to trash me and talk trash about me.........I at least want him to have his facts straight...........LOL!!!........guys like him don't bother me in the least. I find it humorous that he seems to stalk my posts just to get a dig in when he can. Like I said, it's all good

Monte

Posted By: Quicktree

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 11:06 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Monte, why does this six pack guy have such a hard-on for you? Did he catch you in bed with his wife or something? This is crap that belongs on the bullet.

There's a 4.90 BS /B-1TS combo for sale here in Chicago. S/F.....Ken M

I dont know why Monte even pays any attention to him..
the IGNORE button works great... he doesnt even race
or own any type of race car but he loves coming into
the race section and telling everyone how its done..
and he has NEVER done anything

He rips me and others at every turn and has been asked repeatedly to expound on his exploits of racing and what HE does to support the hobby and the aftermarket and all we get is............."crickets"...........on that subject.........LOL!!

I reply, because for some reason he seems to think he knows stuff about me, what I have done and haven't done.........and while he is free to trash me and talk trash about me.........I at least want him to have his facts straight...........LOL!!!........guys like him don't bother me in the least. I find it humorous that he seems to stalk my posts just to get a dig in when he can. Like I said, it's all good

Monte [/quote\i think runs with one of the biggest mopar scammers of all time.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 01:39 PM

Quote:

And I NEVER said the current parts were not good enough for me.......WHAT I SAID WAS there are no current parts available for what I would like to build for my GTX............but feel free to spin that to make it sound however you like.

Monte

Just to cut through all the other stuff...

I don't know how to take that except as, combined with your other comments, that you feel the cheap ass 906 head, purple shaft cam lovin' Mopar guys should be buying up the parts you wouldn't use on your GTX, so it will spur manufacturers to make better, updated parts that you will consider using ??

If I am wrong, please clarify, ty

Posted By: moper

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 03:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:

And I NEVER said the current parts were not good enough for me.......WHAT I SAID WAS there are no current parts available for what I would like to build for my GTX............but feel free to spin that to make it sound however you like.

Monte

Just to cut through all the other stuff...

I don't know how to take that except as, combined with your other comments, that you feel the cheap ass 906 head, purple shaft cam lovin' Mopar guys should be buying up the parts you wouldn't use on your GTX, so it will spur manufacturers to make better, updated parts that you will consider using ??

If I am wrong, please clarify, ty

Take it as I do - For his GTX he is looking for a performance window that the parts "the cheap ass 906 head, purple shaft cam lovin' Mopar guys should be buying" simply cannot reach. I've got no trouble with him wanting to run with bigger dogs and carry a Mopar stick.

I think either your behind's cheeks are covering your ears or you'r so concerned about brand loyalty that seeking ultimate performance and the highest level of competition simply has no value to you.

Posted By: Diablo

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 03:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Just wondering, what is the bore spacing on the pro stock hemi head? If someone was to make a tall deck block that would fit that head, would it be a viable option? As i see it, any way you slice it, it will "look" like a chevy engine regardless of what block gets put under the head.

If the pro stock hemi head would serve as a foundation for a big inch mopar engine, lets all get together and have someone start making blocks to fill the void.

I think the guy's name is Goodwin, and they make a billet block for a 5" bore spacing engine, which is what the Mopar pro stock program is built around. Diablo has what I believe is a 655" deal for sled pulling. I want to say it makes around 1350-1400, and the price tag is north of $75,000. He might chime in and correct me, but he will know. Al Alguire also ran 500 CI tamed hemi 99 deal in the 10.5" tire class, he can tell you about that.
That's the point. Al, Boat Racer 572, Steve Gill and I are now working with the predator combos. Boat Racer and Steve Gill, are the only ones I know, and I'm sure there are others although rare, doing it successfully. Indy is useless for information. I have in excess of $1000 just on head gaskets because as I said, Indy is useless with any information/help. If I didn't have help from the other names mentioned here and some I didn't, I might as well be doing this by scratch.
This is where my frustration comes from. Fact, I could have ordered a 665 12 degree GM style race application motor for around $40-45,000 with a dry sump making an easy 1400 + HP. If I needed help, I know at least ten people that have more information and knowledge than Indy, and are ready to help. And if I had my money back, that's what I would do. I've been a Mopar loyalist for over 40 years, but eventually enough is enough. So if or when I decide to sell this stuff and go the easy route, someone will get a sweet deal on this stuff and all the info they want.

Just to chime in Quickly, We have Ran a good chunk of engines over the past 7-8 years and our last two have come From Goodwin. We have done the refreshes to the engines but they were originally built by Goodwin. Both have been 5" Bore space 650ci engines. The first one used IHRA 5" Hemi heads which were blanks that Goodwin worked with. Goodwin used a cast Donovan 5" block for that engine. There are a few of the cast headed cast block Goodwin engines out there. Ours made mid 1400hp. I sold that to a Drag racer around Chicago. This season we Ran Goodwins 5" Billet engine. He developed the head and block but the main design idea was from the 99 head. They look and are a lot different then a Sonny or Schmidt Hemi head. Both head and block are Billet CNC'ed in house. Top notch engine and its been awhile since we had 100% faith in the engine each run. Could not say that back when we were running the B1-TS engines. The new Billet engines are over 1600hp now.

Wish he had a Wedge head program...........but at that level, being 5.0 spacing and essentially using Chevy pattern blocks.........I guess it would serve no purpose. Wonder if he would be interested in developing a "nitrous friendly" chamber design for his heads. Since they are essentially a "twisted wedge" with a plug in the center, it would likely work, but would take a bit of development to work on a 4.700 bore or so.

What bore are your motors??

Monte

Hi Monte,
He does have a wedge head program actually. Came out with it last year. It makes a little less power then the Hemi program but it was about 10k less then the hemi also. To my knowledge he only sold a few because most would just find the extra dime to jump to the hemi. For Nitros chambers I would just give him a call. I wouldn't be surprised if he already had something. I also know the same 5" design stuff he has can be made on the 5.3 Bore spacing. He just mentioned to me when someone has the $$ they will build it.

The bores were both around 4.780-4.786 on my two engines.

Attached picture 8277331-photo1copy3.JPG

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 03:29 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Just wondering, what is the bore spacing on the pro stock hemi head? If someone was to make a tall deck block that would fit that head, would it be a viable option? As i see it, any way you slice it, it will "look" like a chevy engine regardless of what block gets put under the head.

If the pro stock hemi head would serve as a foundation for a big inch mopar engine, lets all get together and have someone start making blocks to fill the void.

I think the guy's name is Goodwin, and they make a billet block for a 5" bore spacing engine, which is what the Mopar pro stock program is built around. Diablo has what I believe is a 655" deal for sled pulling. I want to say it makes around 1350-1400, and the price tag is north of $75,000. He might chime in and correct me, but he will know. Al Alguire also ran 500 CI tamed hemi 99 deal in the 10.5" tire class, he can tell you about that.
That's the point. Al, Boat Racer 572, Steve Gill and I are now working with the predator combos. Boat Racer and Steve Gill, are the only ones I know, and I'm sure there are others although rare, doing it successfully. Indy is useless for information. I have in excess of $1000 just on head gaskets because as I said, Indy is useless with any information/help. If I didn't have help from the other names mentioned here and some I didn't, I might as well be doing this by scratch.
This is where my frustration comes from. Fact, I could have ordered a 665 12 degree GM style race application motor for around $40-45,000 with a dry sump making an easy 1400 + HP. If I needed help, I know at least ten people that have more information and knowledge than Indy, and are ready to help. And if I had my money back, that's what I would do. I've been a Mopar loyalist for over 40 years, but eventually enough is enough. So if or when I decide to sell this stuff and go the easy route, someone will get a sweet deal on this stuff and all the info they want.

Just to chime in Quickly, We have Ran a good chunk of engines over the past 7-8 years and our last two have come From Goodwin. We have done the refreshes to the engines but they were originally built by Goodwin. Both have been 5" Bore space 650ci engines. The first one used IHRA 5" Hemi heads which were blanks that Goodwin worked with. Goodwin used a cast Donovan 5" block for that engine. There are a few of the cast headed cast block Goodwin engines out there. Ours made mid 1400hp. I sold that to a Drag racer around Chicago. This season we Ran Goodwins 5" Billet engine. He developed the head and block but the main design idea was from the 99 head. They look and are a lot different then a Sonny or Schmidt Hemi head. Both head and block are Billet CNC'ed in house. Top notch engine and its been awhile since we had 100% faith in the engine each run. Could not say that back when we were running the B1-TS engines. The new Billet engines are over 1600hp now.

Wish he had a Wedge head program...........but at that level, being 5.0 spacing and essentially using Chevy pattern blocks.........I guess it would serve no purpose. Wonder if he would be interested in developing a "nitrous friendly" chamber design for his heads. Since they are essentially a "twisted wedge" with a plug in the center, it would likely work, but would take a bit of development to work on a 4.700 bore or so.

What bore are your motors??

Monte

Hi Monte,
He does have a wedge head program actually. Came out with it last year. It makes a little less power then the Hemi program but it was about 10k less then the hemi also. To my knowledge he only sold a few because most would just find the extra dime to jump to the hemi. For Nitros chambers I would just give him a call. I wouldn't be surprised if he already had something. I also know the same 5" design stuff he has can be made on the 5.3 Bore spacing. He just mentioned to me when someone has the $$ they will build it.

The bores were both around 4.780-4.786 on my two engines.

Man Diablo, that's some nice stuff! Is that Brad Penn oil I see?

Posted By: Eric

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 03:38 PM

I fail to see how any of this bickering is helping me to get a aluminum block for 3k...

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 03:45 PM

Quote:

I fail to see how any of this bickering is helping me to get a aluminum block for 3k...

That haven't delivered that yet? They must not be cooling, but they're in the mail soon.

Posted By: slantzilla

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 05:01 PM

Quote:

I fail to see how any of this bickering is helping me to get a aluminum block for 3k...

Not sure why you're having trouble, I already got mine and it's a 5" BS.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 05:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I fail to see how any of this bickering is helping me to get a aluminum block for 3k...

Not sure why you're having trouble, I already got mine and it's a 5" BS.

Mine was being delivered ... the 3K wasnt any problem
for the alum block BUT the $2500 for shipping was
a bit much...... LOL

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 05:26 PM

Quote:

Quote:

And I NEVER said the current parts were not good enough for me.......WHAT I SAID WAS there are no current parts available for what I would like to build for my GTX............but feel free to spin that to make it sound however you like.

Monte

Just to cut through all the other stuff...

I don't know how to take that except as, combined with your other comments, that you feel the cheap ass 906 head, purple shaft cam lovin' Mopar guys should be buying up the parts you wouldn't use on your GTX, so it will spur manufacturers to make better, updated parts that you will consider using ??

If I am wrong, please clarify, ty

My explanation was quite clear to everyone but you............and like I said, I knew you would try and spin it to make your distorted point look somewhat relevant...........but as usual, you failed.

BUT, one more time just for giggles. WHAT I WANT FOR MY GTX is a 4.840 or 5.0 based Mopar Wedge motor that offers me the same opportunity to make HP as the current crop of GM based heads. Now, like I asked you before in another thread, please direct me to the company that makes those parts.

And LIKE I SAID again and again. I NEVER said there were no parts good enough for ME. YOU said that. I OWN old school, stock block, 906 headed motors and have built them for others. When those parts will give me the required results, I use them and NEVER said I didn't. Again YOU spun that ridiculous assumption out of comments I made about what I wanted for a MAX PERFORMANCE motor for my GTX. I already told you that I had SEVERAL vehicles other than my GTX. You never asked me what was in them and I never said, because it really wasn't any of your damn business.

But for clarification, I have a Lil Red truck, my Challenger, a 63 Dodge Maxi car, a 41 Dodge pickup with an old school 440-6 motor in it and a 54 Dodge shop truck with a beater 318 in it. All those have warmed over stock block, stock crank motors and all have stock heads other than the motor in my Challenger. And guess what.....ALL the vehicles listed above have Mopar trans and rears..........oh noooo.............LOL!!!

So ONE more time...........what YOU got and what have YOU done

Monte

Posted By: Eric

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 05:32 PM

While there is some great info here ....the personal stuff has to end......now...next guy gets the cooler

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 05:40 PM

Quote:

While there is some great info here ....the personal stuff has to end......now...next guy gets the cooler

I agree, this wasn't my intention. How about going a different direction and getting into the technical aspect of combos 950HP and up? I would like to hear what guys like Monte, Best, Koffel, Bob G., Marsh and others are working on, and keep the BS to a minimum. I'm looking for generalities, as I know a lot of you have competition that would like to know specifics. I don't even care if it's Mopar or not......if that's allowed? It's more about where to finding information and parts.

Posted By: B1MAXX

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 05:40 PM

Quote:

I fail to see how any of this bickering is helping me to get a aluminum block for 3k...

Where do you see Chevy aluminum blocks for 3k? A 9.8 deck Brodix BBC at Summit is over 5k.

And just to through this out there my buddy's car which he sometimes competes in t/d just runnered up at the last pro-am, it has bbc with skirted mains, sounds like a little Mopar mixed into that one.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 05:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I fail to see how any of this bickering is helping me to get a aluminum block for 3k...

Where do you see Chevy aluminum blocks for 3k? A 9.8 deck Brodix BBC at Summit is over 5k.

And just to through this out there my buddy's car which he sometimes competes in t/d just runnered up at the last pro-am, it has bbc with skirted mains, sounds like a little Mopar mixed into that one.

Must have a Century block in it........those are a good base to start a program with. Have built a few of those

Monte

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 05:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Well all I can add is WOW...It is no wonder we get what we get.

You guys make me want to sell my Plymouth and buy a Chevelle.

I'm no racer, I like fast street/strip cars with full interiors. I like everything but I went Mopar because I thought the RB engine makes really good power for the money and are durable, but I'm only looking for around 600 hp max out of a street engine.

Don`t do it.

Stay Mopar and 600 hp in a 440 street car is very doable...................

Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 05:55 PM

Quote:

The main disconnect here seems to be that the vast majority of Mopar guys are content to run motors in the 750 or so HP range. Be they bracket racers, test n tuners, stop racers, street guys or whatever. In that range parts are plentiful, cheaper and there seems to be no problem getting them..........Then you have a group of guys who want to make more power. They seem to have no problem ponying up the money for mega-blocks, Indy blocks, KB, B-1s etc, but parts are harder to get and a little more costly. The first group seems to have no problem with the second group.........Then comes the third group. The guys who want to make serious power and or be able to compete on a head to head basis with other brands and do it with Mopar power. This is the group that is always lamenting the fact that Mopar R&D and new parts is virtually non existant at this level and pointing out the fact that there are no parts to do what you want and none on the horizon. Some in group one seem to have a real problem with group three and want to label them "elitest" or some such other bullsh%t and call them not REAL Mopar guys because they complain about parts or choose to go other routes to accomplish what they want. They are content and can't seem to understand why others are not..........THAT is the problem. They only see it from their point of view

Monte

Very well said Monte

Or as us need to be Fast Bracket Racers would say you got that Sh*t right!

Sometimes you get way off in Left field and I start to wonder about you but every once in a while you get back on track again!

Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:02 PM

Quote:

Quote:

While there is some great info here ....the personal stuff has to end......now...next guy gets the cooler

I agree, this wasn't my intention. How about going a different direction and getting into the technical aspect of combos 950HP and up? I would like to hear what guys like Monte, Best, Koffel, Bob G., Marsh and others are working on, and keep the BS to a minimum. I'm looking for generalities, as I know a lot of you have competition that would like to know specifics. I don't even care if it's Mopar or not......if that's allowed? It's more about where to finding information and parts.

And to add to what Tom is talking about,the price matters not, all that matters is we must have 700+ Cu in engines to run T/D,T/S,10.5 and many of the other class's!

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:07 PM

The Octogon
Two go in
one comes out

I do understand the passion in this thread--as Mopar guys we are at least 20 years behind the other brands on meaningful aftermarket parts and if you toss in price we will never be free from the "MOPAR TAX"

After 30 years of Mopar Only I recently got a new race car with another brand power plant

I have to confess that is was REFRESHING--to call the local distributor--have my choice of 20 part numbers on different blocks and...the local rep delivered to my shop for free next day AND...at a price I was very pleased with.

That kind of thing will turn a mans head

Posted By: slammedR/T

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:08 PM

Hey Monte, You going to be at NO MERCY V this week end at SGMP? Would like to talk to a fellow Mopar guy that likes fast stuff and knows his stuff.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:14 PM

Quote:

Hey Monte, You going to be at NO MERCY V this week end at SGMP? Would like to talk to a fellow Mopar guy that likes fast stuff and knows his stuff.

Leaving tomorrow.........I will have an NOS tent set up next to Chad Hendersons Black ODR Buick, on the back row near the pine trees. Stop by and introduce yourself. I will have MANY customers there and will be busy, but can always find time to talk to another Mopar guy

Monte

Posted By: slammedR/T

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:17 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Hey Monte, You going to be at NO MERCY V this week end at SGMP? Would like to talk to a fellow Mopar guy that likes fast stuff and knows his stuff.

Leaving tomorrow.........I will have an NOS tent set up next to Chad Hendersons Black ODR Buick, on the back row near the pine trees. Stop by and introduce yourself. I will have MANY customers there and will be busy, but can always find time to talk to another Mopar guy

Monte

Heck Yeah, I will stop by and holla, I will prolly be there saturday, maybe friday depending on work schedule.

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:18 PM

Quote:

While there is some great info here ....the personal stuff has to end......now...next guy gets the cooler

Cooler? Like a wine cooler?We have enough whinning so lets get some cheese and crackers to go with all the wine-ing.

But seriously this type of dialoge here and throughout the race community is what is killing our sport.Choise of words and how the are presented should be respectful if you want people to share their ideas,knowledge and be helpful.There is alot of things that can be accomplished if we all approach it in a professional and respectful manner.
We at BGR have been trying to work with manufactures to help build better product products.Companys Like Indy,HHP,Ritter.440 Source,Edelbrock,Koffels and others are doing a lot to develope more Mopar performance hard parts.The process is long,hard and expensive.But all the negative feedback and bashing these companys get may tend to make them not want to make a commitment of their resources especially the great monatary investment.They have a hard enough time getting raw materials like casting and forgings from the limited foundarys that provide them.Tooling is also a large concern as current machining is getting worn and new tooling is in the outer atmosphere as far as cost.
Bitching and bickering will benifit no one,commitment,ideas and knowledge needs to be constructively and professionally presented to the companys along with a marketing stragity that will get them interested.If everyone here would present their ideas,either collectively or representivly at venues like the PRI shows manufactures may take us serious and listen.
We must support our sport or we will left with memories of better days.

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

While there is some great info here ....the personal stuff has to end......now...next guy gets the cooler

Cooler? Like a wine cooler?We have enough whinning so lets get some cheese and crackers to go with all the wine-ing. But seriously this type of dialoge here and throughout the race community is what is killing our sport.Choise of words and how the are presented should be respectful if you want people to share their ideas,knowledge and be helpful.There is alot of things that can be accomplished if we all approach it in a professional and respectful manner.
We at BGR have been trying to work with manufactures to help build better product products.Companys Like Indy,HHP,Ritter.440 Source,Edelbrock,Koffels and others are doing a lot to develope more Mopar performance hard parts.The process is long,hard and expensive.But all the negative feedback and bashing these companys get may tend to make them not want to make a commitment of their resources especially the great monatary investment.They have a hard enough time getting raw materials like casting and forgings from the limited foundarys that provide them.Tooling is also a large concern as current machining is getting worn and new tooling is in the outer atmosphere as far as cost.
Bitching and bickering will benifit no one,commitment,ideas and knowledge needs to be constructively and professionally presented to the companys along with a marketing stragity that will get them interested.If everyone here would present their ideas,either collectively or representivly at venues like the PRI shows manufactures may take us serious and listen.
We must support our sport or we will left with memories of better days.

How's my twin MAX doing Bob????? LOL

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:

While there is some great info here ....the personal stuff has to end......now...next guy gets the cooler

I agree, this wasn't my intention. How about going a different direction and getting into the technical aspect of combos 950HP and up? I would like to hear what guys like Monte, Best, Koffel, Bob G., Marsh and others are working on, and keep the BS to a minimum. I'm looking for generalities, as I know a lot of you have competition that would like to know specifics. I don't even care if it's Mopar or not......if that's allowed? It's more about where to finding information and parts.

Well, like I told my new best friend, my current project for MY CAR is a custom block drilled for the 4.840 Wayne County pattern, B-1 TS heads I have. I had ordered the ultra low deck block blank in the lifter area and then sent it to LSM, to let them put the lifter bores in it and grind a custom cam. This allowed them to straighten the pushrod angles and get the geometry right. Hopefully I can supply those numbers to a block maker this time and not have to do that again. The Chevy style block is a no brainer, as the rotating assy is easy to get, as well as nice pans etc. With these TS heads as old as they are, I KNOW I will be down power from the jump on the latest GM stuff, but it should still be pretty stout. In a "nitrous config" the latest 632 Chevy stuff will make 1200 pretty easy, so if this TS gets within 100 of that it will be a good day.

Now, BEFORE my newest buddy or somebody else jumps in telling about so and so motor that made better than 1200hp in N/A trim, let me reiterate that I said in NITROUS TRIM. This is NOT an all out, balls to wall N/A build. Compromises have to be made to make a motor live on large amounts of nitrous and this always hurts N/A power a bit. So a purpose built, NITROUS 632 Chevy that makes 1200hp on a properly calibrated dyno is a GOOD one and if the TS motor gets within 100 or so of that, I will be happy.

Monte

Posted By: Porter67

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:36 PM

As far as costs go, many overlook that no matter what you run weather mopar/ford/chevy that slicks/rims/carbs/fogger kits/cooling system/danas/gear sets/oils/fuels/nitrous fills and it goes on and on.

Many parts are used by all, the parts don't know the difference but cost the same.

PLEASE one of you older rich baby boomers cut your kids out of the will and donate the R@D money and the cost of a first run or so to do a proper block.

Hell name the block after your family name and let that be your legacy that many would never forget.

Only in a perfect world.

Glad to see the bickering stop it was a all nighter when Id check on my work breaks and really Mr. Smith, although I do not know you, many don't like to hear the truth. From what ive heard and read over the years on many sites and people who know you, your clearly well in the loop of the reality of this type of motorsport and although no one knows it all you seem to be doing well. Some just cant get that paper bag off there head and some would do better with a tight plastic bag and duct tape.

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

While there is some great info here ....the personal stuff has to end......now...next guy gets the cooler

Cooler? Like a wine cooler?We have enough whinning so lets get some cheese and crackers to go with all the wine-ing. But seriously this type of dialoge here and throughout the race community is what is killing our sport.Choise of words and how the are presented should be respectful if you want people to share their ideas,knowledge and be helpful.There is alot of things that can be accomplished if we all approach it in a professional and respectful manner.
We at BGR have been trying to work with manufactures to help build better product products.Companys Like Indy,HHP,Ritter.440 Source,Edelbrock,Koffels and others are doing a lot to develope more Mopar performance hard parts.The process is long,hard and expensive.But all the negative feedback and bashing these companys get may tend to make them not want to make a commitment of their resources especially the great monatary investment.They have a hard enough time getting raw materials like casting and forgings from the limited foundarys that provide them.Tooling is also a large concern as current machining is getting worn and new tooling is in the outer atmosphere as far as cost.
Bitching and bickering will benifit no one,commitment,ideas and knowledge needs to be constructively and professionally presented to the companys along with a marketing stragity that will get them interested.If everyone here would present their ideas,either collectively or representivly at venues like the PRI shows manufactures may take us serious and listen.
We must support our sport or we will left with memories of better days.

I have been beating this drum for more than the last two decades. And that is one of the issues I have. If this process was started 25 years ago, where would we be now? But, as stated many times above, the AVERAGE MoPar (who makes up 99% of us) is damn happy with a 451 and -1 heads. That crap is 1960' tech with raised ports. PERIOD. I know if I call and want to buy blank Predator castings I will never get them. They want to sell finished parts. But, if I call Brodix or AFR or, or, or whoever I can get blank castings for a chevy. Then , I can put the valves where I want them, the ports where I want them and everything else.
When you are trying to make a show, or run heads up, you can't run 40+ year old crap and compete. Won't happen. Takes forever to get parts. Some parts you have to have made and most people won't do it. I don't blame them.
If you accept junk, cobble it along and think you are fast, you are a bracket racer. I have mellowed in my age, but I ain't dead yet. All the above suppliers (from my experience) don't do enough to educate racers. Main girdles, aftermarket main caps, block filler and the like will NOT make a passenger car block into a race block.
I'm rambling here but one more thing. The men who developed the G2 hemi were HAND SCRAPING the cores to get metal where it needed to be. The y never designed a main girdle to make it right. Straight poop there. Speaking truth to bracket racers.

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 06:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:

And yes, I do define racers and hobbyists in "groups" and I doubt anyone but YOU has an issue with that. I would say bracket racers are a "group". Class racers are a "group". Heads up racers would be a "group". Resto guys would be a "group" and so on..........so exactly what is your issue with that. And believe it or not, some of us might be a part of MULTIPLE groups..........oh the horror of it. "Cats and Dogs" living together, oh its total anarchy...........LOL!!!

I considered putting you on ignore, just as Mr P and I am sure MANY others have, but you are just too much fun. The more you post, the more.........well, you know, or at least the rest of us do..........LOL!!!

Monte

You can't recall what you say from one post to the next...LOL...a month ago you said you hadn't raced in 15+ years because of life, kids, divorce, new houses, etc......now it's soley because you chose the wrong engine combo.....okkkk....and all these megablocks you have bought, you never mentioned before, have never mentioned having any other race car besides your GTX....

YOU have made it clear previously that you wouldn't waste your time/money on a Predator, or any 4.8 bs engine....Now you are claiming to ???? Try and stick to ONE story please.....

The last time that I know of that you entered a race, you whacked the throttle in reverse and backed into a guy in the staging lanes....

I have no problem with whatever engine you put in your GTX....never have....I am more interested in the cars like Gary Robbins has, very very impressive to me, and he probably talks the least, and just gits-r-dun...

My only issue with you, is your constantly belittling Mopar guys as cheap dinosaurs, for not buying the same parts you claim aren't good enough for you !! I find that ironic and hypocritical...

This whole post is because a few Mopar guys talked about how nice it would be to have blocks available priced similar to chevy blocks....and the bashing began....

Most of your posts are very interesting, straight to the point, make perfect sense.....

I said this, not Monty. If you think main girdles and off the shelf cams are for you, I would not build you anything. It's that simple.

Posted By: 74yellowduster

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 07:08 PM

my take on the original post...

what i see a lot of is newbies asking for help building X kind of build. when you suggest to them to go talk to a machine shop they run like hell.

most of what i ever learned was from going down to the machine shop and yacking. book knowledge is only gonna get you so far.

i'm not sure if they are afraid of machine shops, or if they think they are rip off artists or something. it would actually be kinda hard to steal someones money and then skip town with a lathe, presses, balancing machine etc in the back of a pickup truck lol.

they are great people i have never got ripped off by one. they know their stuff. maybe i just been lucky.

anyhow /endofmyopinion

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 07:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Well all I can add is WOW...It is no wonder we get what we get.

You guys make me want to sell my Plymouth and buy a Chevelle.

I'm no racer, I like fast street/strip cars with full interiors. I like everything but I went Mopar because I thought the RB engine makes really good power for the money and are durable, but I'm only looking for around 600 hp max out of a street engine.

Don`t do it. Stay Mopar and 600 hp in a 440 street car is very doable...................

Making about 525 now, should be closer in the future with different heads or porting. These guys make me feel slow though

I guess because I am but its easy to forget on the street

Posted By: Porter67

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 07:13 PM

There is a application where a main girdle made the difference of spitting the crank out or keeping the bottom end together.

In the late 80-s we were spitting the crank and rods out the bottom of a 466 JD inline 6 with two large turbos in series with a hidden 150 shot.

We ended up taking a 1 inch slab of al. and indexed it off the pan rail bolts so every main cap was tied together and then tied into the side rails of the block.

We had the pistons and valves coated with the same plasma coating used on the space shuttle at that time at 8k for the coatings but in the end we stopped spitting out the bottom end and stopped melting pistons.

Later we ended up machining an al. overhead cam head, and we cut the cores as sent them to crane to grind the lobes for us.

The head was one piece and the supports for the camshaft were separate but pinned and held in place by opposing head bolts.

That tractor got banned by the ntpa as they couldn't keep changing the rule book to keep up and we sold it to a team in Europe.

Anyway in that situation it did help.

Posted By: moparmanjames

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 07:54 PM

Quote:

I have built Mopar engines every day for over 25 years--that means a lot of them. Some wonders --that won championships and some turds that well...were just that but...98% were just fine , however
I am always surprised when one I built 7 years ago-- finally gives up at the race track- and I get a call --'what am I going to do about it?"
then..a dear friend that has built engines for over 40 years says to me
If they can't afford to blow one up every now and then NO matter who or what was at fault --then...this ain't the hobby for them.
It is tougher every day that passes to justify doing more--with parts quality what it is and budgets way less than it really takes to cover all the bases
When I really think it over --I know we were better off sticking a 509 cam in a junk yard 440 stuffing that into a $700 Duster and having FUN.
Way better than where we are now with a $15K build being pretty normal.
I sinned and built myself a 350 small block Chevy for my Nostalgia dragster--a nice 200 inch old school looking fun machine--well after doing all that "sinning" without doing all that much spending I can say that it is the best bang for the buck since those .509 in a old 440 days
Bash if you must --I do not care but I am racing--going fast as I need to--and doing it on the cheap which...

Makes it FUN AGAIN!!! and if it blows all to pieces --well..it was just a friggin SBC--who gives a damn.

Exactly.

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 08:06 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have built Mopar engines every day for over 25 years--that means a lot of them. Some wonders --that won championships and some turds that well...were just that but...98% were just fine , however
I am always surprised when one I built 7 years ago-- finally gives up at the race track- and I get a call --'what am I going to do about it?"
then..a dear friend that has built engines for over 40 years says to me
If they can't afford to blow one up every now and then NO matter who or what was at fault --then...this ain't the hobby for them.
It is tougher every day that passes to justify doing more--with parts quality what it is and budgets way less than it really takes to cover all the bases
When I really think it over --I know we were better off sticking a 509 cam in a junk yard 440 stuffing that into a $700 Duster and having FUN.
Way better than where we are now with a $15K build being pretty normal.
I sinned and built myself a 350 small block Chevy for my Nostalgia dragster--a nice 200 inch old school looking fun machine--well after doing all that "sinning" without doing all that much spending I can say that it is the best bang for the buck since those .509 in a old 440 days
Bash if you must --I do not care but I am racing--going fast as I need to--and doing it on the cheap which...

Makes it FUN AGAIN!!! and if it blows all to pieces --well..it was just a friggin SBC--who gives a damn.

Exactly.

Didn't see this but I agree. Again I'm not a racer, but 509 cammed junk yard engines are what got me into Mopars. Unfortunately I was born about 20 years too late for that. When I rebuilt my engine I thought it'd be great to have a fresh engine exactly the way I wanted it, and once it was done and I figured what I have into it (not including time), I probably could be almost as fast if I just re-rung and bearinged the engine and shoved some more cheap 70s tech into it with a 509 cam and let it burn some oil. And my car would be painted.

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 08:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I have built Mopar engines every day for over 25 years--that means a lot of them. Some wonders --that won championships and some turds that well...were just that but...98% were just fine , however
I am always surprised when one I built 7 years ago-- finally gives up at the race track- and I get a call --'what am I going to do about it?"
then..a dear friend that has built engines for over 40 years says to me
If they can't afford to blow one up every now and then NO matter who or what was at fault --then...this ain't the hobby for them.
It is tougher every day that passes to justify doing more--with parts quality what it is and budgets way less than it really takes to cover all the bases
When I really think it over --I know we were better off sticking a 509 cam in a junk yard 440 stuffing that into a $700 Duster and having FUN.
Way better than where we are now with a $15K build being pretty normal.
I sinned and built myself a 350 small block Chevy for my Nostalgia dragster--a nice 200 inch old school looking fun machine--well after doing all that "sinning" without doing all that much spending I can say that it is the best bang for the buck since those .509 in a old 440 days
Bash if you must --I do not care but I am racing--going fast as I need to--and doing it on the cheap which...

Makes it FUN AGAIN!!! and if it blows all to pieces --well..it was just a friggin SBC--who gives a damn.

Exactly.

Didn't see this but I agree. Again I'm not a racer, but 509 cammed junk yard engines are what got me into Mopars. Unfortunately I was born about 20 years too late for that. When I rebuilt my engine I thought it'd be great to have a fresh engine exactly the way I wanted it, and once it was done and I figured what I have into it (not including time), I probably could be almost as fast if I just re-rung and bearinged the engine and shoved some more cheap 70s tech into it with a 509 cam and let it burn some oil. And my car would be painted.

So you guys are missing the OP's original point. If a 509 cam and a junkyard 440 flips your beenie then good on you. I sold my car in 2007 and don't miss it a single bit. I now have a mid 12 second daily driver that I will put into the mid 11's over the winter and I will do it on passenger car heads. But I will use a custom SFT cam. I could go HRT but that is so common now that it bores me. 340 CID. I could make it faster but I don't want to have a roll bar.

So again, if you are happy running junkyard garbage and it's fun to YOU, good on ya. But there should be some backlash from all of us about the horrible RACE parts deficiency and piss poor race support that we get from MoPar and the aftermarket.

Posted By: Eric

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 08:25 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I have built Mopar engines every day for over 25 years--that means a lot of them. Some wonders --that won championships and some turds that well...were just that but...98% were just fine , however
I am always surprised when one I built 7 years ago-- finally gives up at the race track- and I get a call --'what am I going to do about it?"
then..a dear friend that has built engines for over 40 years says to me
If they can't afford to blow one up every now and then NO matter who or what was at fault --then...this ain't the hobby for them.
It is tougher every day that passes to justify doing more--with parts quality what it is and budgets way less than it really takes to cover all the bases
When I really think it over --I know we were better off sticking a 509 cam in a junk yard 440 stuffing that into a $700 Duster and having FUN.
Way better than where we are now with a $15K build being pretty normal.
I sinned and built myself a 350 small block Chevy for my Nostalgia dragster--a nice 200 inch old school looking fun machine--well after doing all that "sinning" without doing all that much spending I can say that it is the best bang for the buck since those .509 in a old 440 days
Bash if you must --I do not care but I am racing--going fast as I need to--and doing it on the cheap which...

Makes it FUN AGAIN!!! and if it blows all to pieces --well..it was just a friggin SBC--who gives a damn.

Exactly.

Didn't see this but I agree. Again I'm not a racer, but 509 cammed junk yard engines are what got me into Mopars. Unfortunately I was born about 20 years too late for that. When I rebuilt my engine I thought it'd be great to have a fresh engine exactly the way I wanted it, and once it was done and I figured what I have into it (not including time), I probably could be almost as fast if I just re-rung and bearinged the engine and shoved some more cheap 70s tech into it with a 509 cam and let it burn some oil. And my car would be painted.

So you guys are missing the OP's original point. If a 509 cam and a junkyard 440 flips your beenie then good on you. I sold my car in 2007 and don't miss it a single bit. I now have a mid 12 second daily driver that I will put into the mid 11's over the winter and I will do it on passenger car heads. But I will use a custom SFT cam. I could go HRT but that is so common now that it bores me. 340 CID. I could make it faster but I don't want to have a roll bar.

So again, if you are happy running junkyard garbage and it's fun to YOU, good on ya. But there should be some backlash from all of us about the horrible RACE parts deficiency and piss poor race support that we get from MoPar and the aftermarket.

My Duster ran 10.60's with a .509 on kerosine (9.5-1)

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 08:54 PM

Ya and my small block Duster went 10.05@129mph on BP panther piss and a 520 lift Racer Brown cam. You can't get anymore 70's than that.

Posted By: SomeCarGuy

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 09:01 PM

I prolly won't read this entire thread.

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 09:11 PM

Quote:

So again, if you are happy running junkyard garbage and it's fun to YOU, good on ya. But there should be some backlash from all of us about the horrible RACE parts deficiency and piss poor race support that we get from MoPar and the aftermarket.

Oh I got the point, I'm just justifying the other points that most people aren't looking to make 1000+ horsepower.

And MoPars support does suck, and its not going to change. Ever. They don't care about us, for the same reason that no one else does, there's no money in it!

Posted By: B G Racing

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 09:17 PM

Quote:

Ya and my small block Duster went [Email]10.05@129mph[/Email] on BP panther piss and a 520 lift Racer Brown cam. You can't get anymore 70's than that.

Panther piss is what we got now,in the 70s we had Dinasaur poop watered down,it was call Sonoco.Now that's fossil fuel.

John,your twin Max said to tell you things have been "ruff" since I got back from Norwalk and told him his twin brother was still alive.

Hows the pussy Hemi doing?

Posted By: slantzilla

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 09:35 PM

Quote:

I prolly won't read this entire thread.

You are a very wise man.

Posted By: weedlayer

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 09:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I prolly won't read this entire thread.

You are a very wise man.

I prolly wish I hadn't followed it from the stert, but you know what they say about train wrecks, just gotta keep looking. Where's the smiley with a gun to my head?

Posted By: sixpackgut

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 09:45 PM

Quote:

Quote:

While there is some great info here ....the personal stuff has to end......now...next guy gets the cooler

I agree, this wasn't my intention. How about going a different direction and getting into the technical aspect of combos 950HP and up? I would like to hear what guys like Monte, Best, Koffel, Bob G., Marsh and others are working on, and keep the BS to a minimum. I'm looking for generalities, as I know a lot of you have competition that would like to know specifics. I don't even care if it's Mopar or not......if that's allowed? It's more about where to finding information and parts.

950hp? a junk yard 4.8 and ebay turbo. $2k

Posted By: moparmanjames

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 09:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I have built Mopar engines every day for over 25 years--that means a lot of them. Some wonders --that won championships and some turds that well...were just that but...98% were just fine , however
I am always surprised when one I built 7 years ago-- finally gives up at the race track- and I get a call --'what am I going to do about it?"
then..a dear friend that has built engines for over 40 years says to me
If they can't afford to blow one up every now and then NO matter who or what was at fault --then...this ain't the hobby for them.
It is tougher every day that passes to justify doing more--with parts quality what it is and budgets way less than it really takes to cover all the bases
When I really think it over --I know we were better off sticking a 509 cam in a junk yard 440 stuffing that into a $700 Duster and having FUN.
Way better than where we are now with a $15K build being pretty normal.
I sinned and built myself a 350 small block Chevy for my Nostalgia dragster--a nice 200 inch old school looking fun machine--well after doing all that "sinning" without doing all that much spending I can say that it is the best bang for the buck since those .509 in a old 440 days
Bash if you must --I do not care but I am racing--going fast as I need to--and doing it on the cheap which...

Makes it FUN AGAIN!!! and if it blows all to pieces --well..it was just a friggin SBC--who gives a damn.

Exactly.

Didn't see this but I agree. Again I'm not a racer, but 509 cammed junk yard engines are what got me into Mopars. Unfortunately I was born about 20 years too late for that. When I rebuilt my engine I thought it'd be great to have a fresh engine exactly the way I wanted it, and once it was done and I figured what I have into it (not including time), I probably could be almost as fast if I just re-rung and bearinged the engine and shoved some more cheap 70s tech into it with a 509 cam and let it burn some oil. And my car would be painted.

So you guys are missing the OP's original point. If a 509 cam and a junkyard 440 flips your beenie then good on you. I sold my car in 2007 and don't miss it a single bit. I now have a mid 12 second daily driver that I will put into the mid 11's over the winter and I will do it on passenger car heads. But I will use a custom SFT cam. I could go HRT but that is so common now that it bores me. 340 CID. I could make it faster but I don't want to have a roll bar.

So again, if you are happy running junkyard garbage and it's fun to YOU, good on ya. But there should be some backlash from all of us about the horrible RACE parts deficiency and piss poor race support that we get from MoPar and the aftermarket.

Not really missing the point, just stating that when you get into that game of going faster and faster, it gets more expensive and un-fun when you start breaking parts.
The point is even the best parts fail from time to time in racing, and Mopar has been at a disadvantage with parts ever since the 80's so it's pretty much beating a dead horse.
The only exception where Mopar is king is at the very top of the Drag racing heap, the top fuel Hemis, and who's got the money and time for that?
Now granted, I'm going to build a blown aluminum block Hemi one day, but it will take a few years and it will be all used parts! lol

Posted By: d-150

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/22/14 11:32 PM

last 2 440s i built had 2 go .60 over luckily sonic checked out.us cheap racers are running out of factory blocks so would a capable 440 block at 1000hp na be a good start at chevy pricepoint

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/23/14 04:55 PM

Quote:

Quote:

My only issue with you, is your constantly belittling Mopar guys as cheap dinosaurs, for not buying the same parts you claim aren't good enough for you !! I find that ironic and hypocritical...

This whole post is because a few Mopar guys talked about how nice it would be to have blocks available priced similar to chevy blocks....and the bashing began....

Most of your posts are very interesting, straight to the point, make perfect sense.....

I said this, not Monty. If you think main girdles and off the shelf cams are for you, I would not build you anything. It's that simple.

Monty has said this and insinuated it many times, but now appears to be backtracking on it, cool....

I wouldn't have you build me anything, it's that simple, so we are good....

Just curious, would you build ANY Mopar engine, since you seem to feel they are all inferior and silly ?? I apologize if I have interpreted your statements incorrectly, but from all you've said, it seems to be your belief.

Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/23/14 05:07 PM

I have been Racing Fast Mopars since the early 80's,all the other racers called me a kid back then,so I guess I can say I have been Racing Mopars since I was a Kid!

Now to get to the point,it was all ways me(Mopar) against the chevy's & ford's with the Mopar I was never the good guy,they even thought I had to be Cheating to Win with a Mopar.

A few years ago and I found this site and I thought at long last I have found some fellow Mopar racers who will be on my side.
And we all know the answer to that,we are against each other worse then the ford & chevy guys are against us.
The ones that have no need or use for after market parts bash anyone who mentions building us any,knowing that the ones who race need them.Instead of helping each other we work against each other.If anyone ask for help when the ones on here that have or have had the same try and answer them over 70% that have not had or have them but have read in a book will try and steer them in the wrong direction.
Because of the $$$ problem and the need for Bigger engines I had to make the change last year in my Racing to chevy and it has been great the chevy people who used to not like me now like me and will go out of their way both at the track as well as away from the track to help.And there are so many different parts and at great prices it will make your head spin.
With that being said I may have no choice at the present but to race a chevy but still am and will always be a Mopar man!They may take me away from the Mopar,but they will never take the Mopar out of me!
Us Mopar Racers & People do not have all the parts the chevy & ford people have and never will and I understand that.
But what I can not understand is why we can not be like the chevy & ford people are when it comes to Mopars and all of us if not friends at least work together instead of against each other,believe me we had enough chevy & fords guys & girls working against us that its not like we need any more against us!

Posted By: Old School

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/23/14 11:12 PM

What he said.....

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 01:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

My only issue with you, is your constantly belittling Mopar guys as cheap dinosaurs, for not buying the same parts you claim aren't good enough for you !! I find that ironic and hypocritical...

This whole post is because a few Mopar guys talked about how nice it would be to have blocks available priced similar to chevy blocks....and the bashing began....

Most of your posts are very interesting, straight to the point, make perfect sense.....

I said this, not Monty. If you think main girdles and off the shelf cams are for you, I would not build you anything. It's that simple.

Monty has said this and insinuated it many times, but now appears to be backtracking on it, cool....

I wouldn't have you build me anything, it's that simple, so we are good....

Just curious, would you build ANY Mopar engine, since you seem to feel they are all inferior and silly ?? I apologize if I have interpreted your statements incorrectly, but from all you've said, it seems to be your belief.

I still build Chrysler based engines. And others too. I just won't build one for you (or anyone else) who thinks it's acceptable to use junkyard parts and build geometrically retarded engines. I'm too old for that stupidity.
I will say it again, for clarity: You will never EVER compete in real (read heads up) competition when you have an engine based on less than 1.0 bore/stroke ratio. And 1.0 is the bare MINIMUM. It's just stupid. Using 40-50 year old blocks and heads (in these situations) is just IGNORANT.
When you can get 20 (or more) BBC "conventional" heads and even more for SBC when Chrysler and the aftermarket can barely scrape up 4-5. Stupid really, why anyone would ever consider a MoPar.
That being said, I'm going to build a stock block, stock stroke, stock rod, stock headed, solid lifter 425-450 HP SB Chrysler that will be a daily driver. I actually thought about posting a thread about the build with pics and flow numbers. But who would care?

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 04:02 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Just curious, would you build ANY Mopar engine, since you seem to feel they are all inferior and silly ?? I apologize if I have interpreted your statements incorrectly, but from all you've said, it seems to be your belief.

I still build Chrysler based engines. And others too. I just won't build one for you (or anyone else) who thinks it's acceptable to use junkyard parts and build geometrically retarded engines. I'm too old for that stupidity.
I will say it again, for clarity: You will never EVER compete in real (read heads up) competition when you have an engine based on less than 1.0 bore/stroke ratio. And 1.0 is the bare MINIMUM. It's just stupid. Using 40-50 year old blocks and heads (in these situations) is just IGNORANT.
When you can get 20 (or more) BBC "conventional" heads and even more for SBC when Chrysler and the aftermarket can barely scrape up 4-5. Stupid really, why anyone would ever consider a MoPar.
That being said, I'm going to build a stock block, stock stroke, stock rod, stock headed, solid lifter 425-450 HP SB Chrysler that will be a daily driver. I actually thought about posting a thread about the build with pics and flow numbers. But who would care?

Wow, I hope Monte reads this, or somebody send him a memo on this.....he was thinking he could be competitive with a 632 chevy, which is usually 4.6 bore x 4.75 stroke......You say it's "stupid" to build such a "geometrically retarded" engine.....

Posted By: tubtar

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 05:12 AM

I can't wait for the day we meet , 6 pack.
Can not wait.

Posted By: Thumperdart

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 06:08 AM

Quote:

I can't wait for the day we meet , 6 pack.
Can not wait.

Is this a "good" or "bad" meet...............

Posted By: racerx

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 12:17 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I can't wait for the day we meet , 6 pack.
Can not wait.

Is this a "good" or "bad" meet...............

Posted By: tubtar

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 02:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I can't wait for the day we meet , 6 pack.
Can not wait.

Is this a "good" or "bad" meet...............

It's all good from my chair.
At a minimum , I can show him a real car.........and point out the error of his ways.
In reality , I just gave him another target for his pointless drivel.
But with the added bonus of relative proximity.
We will cross paths.
The community is too small not to.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 02:54 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I can't wait for the day we meet , 6 pack.
Can not wait.

Is this a "good" or "bad" meet...............

It's all good from my chair.
At a minimum , I can show him a real car.........and point out the error of his ways.
In reality , I just gave him another target for his pointless drivel.
But with the added bonus of relative proximity.
We will cross paths.
The community is too small not to.

You guys are wasting your time with him... he liked
bad mouthing me because I has some issues when I
built my Rampage.. but he has never built anything
so he wouldnt know what problems can occur.. but
yet he feels he has the right to bad mouth... he
isnt worth my time so thats why he is on IGNORE

Posted By: megajoltman

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 04:22 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I can't wait for the day we meet , 6 pack.
Can not wait.

Is this a "good" or "bad" meet...............

It's all good from my chair.
At a minimum , I can show him a real car.........and point out the error of his ways.
In reality , I just gave him another target for his pointless drivel.
But with the added bonus of relative proximity.
We will cross paths.
The community is too small not to.

You guys are wasting your time with him... he liked
bad mouthing me because I has some issues when I
built my Rampage.. but he has never built anything
so he wouldnt know what problems can occur.. but
yet he feels he has the right to bad mouth... he
isnt worth my time so thats why he is on IGNORE

He's an @asshat, much better with him on ignore....

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 04:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Just curious, would you build ANY Mopar engine, since you seem to feel they are all inferior and silly ?? I apologize if I have interpreted your statements incorrectly, but from all you've said, it seems to be your belief.

I still build Chrysler based engines. And others too. I just won't build one for you (or anyone else) who thinks it's acceptable to use junkyard parts and build geometrically retarded engines. I'm too old for that stupidity.
I will say it again, for clarity: You will never EVER compete in real (read heads up) competition when you have an engine based on less than 1.0 bore/stroke ratio. And 1.0 is the bare MINIMUM. It's just stupid. Using 40-50 year old blocks and heads (in these situations) is just IGNORANT.
When you can get 20 (or more) BBC "conventional" heads and even more for SBC when Chrysler and the aftermarket can barely scrape up 4-5. Stupid really, why anyone would ever consider a MoPar.
That being said, I'm going to build a stock block, stock stroke, stock rod, stock headed, solid lifter 425-450 HP SB Chrysler that will be a daily driver. I actually thought about posting a thread about the build with pics and flow numbers. But who would care?

Wow, I hope Monte reads this, or somebody send him a memo on this.....he was thinking he could be competitive with a 632 chevy, which is usually 4.6 bore x 4.75 stroke......You say it's "stupid" to build such a "geometrically retarded" engine.....

You must be stupid or something. I've never ever put anyone on ignore. Not on ST. Not even on TB. But you will be the first.

I have nothing personal against Monte, or anyone else so do try and twist what I say. Now, because I'm the nicest guy you've never met, I'll spell it out for you.

I don't care what name is on the valve cover. A bore to stroke ratio of less than 1.0 is not good. Look at every class of MoPar verses Chevy. Lets say a 340 vs. a 350. The Dodge has a better r/s ratio, taller decks, wider pan rail, cam is further from the crank and a better b/s ratio! Why do you think they run as well as they do with clearly deficient ports????? Because geometry matters. Look at the 400 vs. the 396. Or the 454 the most bassackwards stupid deal yet...goes to show if you throw enough money at it, you can fix a relatively high speed turtle...thanks Smokey....and yes, I know he said that about the SBC...all that junk is the same junk to me) vs. a 440. Everyone listed here shows the geometrically SUPERIOR design wins, hands down. On top of Chrysler using the best production cast iron of the "big 3".

So let me spell it out. If Monte disagrees with me, I'm ok with that. He has been there and done it. You haven't. You are just a mouth. But if it came down to competing and I had a choice, I would take some stroke out of it.. Now the sad facts, and what this post is really about.

The best you are going to do with a MoPar is a 4.560 bore. At 4.600 the chevy still has .040 on you and that .040 is big. AND, you can go to 4.7 and a little more with the chevy. Can't touch this with a MoPar. Sorry if you are butt hurt but truth is truth and facts hurt. They make meds for guy like you anyway.

Last but not least is Pro Stock. I could fix PS in one page, but all the cry babies would snivel and whine and we would have a shortage of whambulances, country wide. Have a look at PS geometry. Big bores, relatively long rods (rod ratios of 1.7 to 1.8 are common) and they are making dang near 3hp/CI. They must be stoopid er sumthin. They can build the geometrically any way they want.

So you have been proven wrong on multiple levels. Put the keyboard down. Leave your momma's basement and forget you ever heard of the interweb.

CLASS............DISMISSED.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 05:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Just curious, would you build ANY Mopar engine, since you seem to feel they are all inferior and silly ?? I apologize if I have interpreted your statements incorrectly, but from all you've said, it seems to be your belief.

I still build Chrysler based engines. And others too. I just won't build one for you (or anyone else) who thinks it's acceptable to use junkyard parts and build geometrically retarded engines. I'm too old for that stupidity.
I will say it again, for clarity: You will never EVER compete in real (read heads up) competition when you have an engine based on less than 1.0 bore/stroke ratio. And 1.0 is the bare MINIMUM. It's just stupid. Using 40-50 year old blocks and heads (in these situations) is just IGNORANT.
When you can get 20 (or more) BBC "conventional" heads and even more for SBC when Chrysler and the aftermarket can barely scrape up 4-5. Stupid really, why anyone would ever consider a MoPar.
That being said, I'm going to build a stock block, stock stroke, stock rod, stock headed, solid lifter 425-450 HP SB Chrysler that will be a daily driver. I actually thought about posting a thread about the build with pics and flow numbers. But who would care?

Wow, I hope Monte reads this, or somebody send him a memo on this.....he was thinking he could be competitive with a 632 chevy, which is usually 4.6 bore x 4.75 stroke......You say it's "stupid" to build such a "geometrically retarded" engine.....

I have been proven wrong ??? LOL

You claim: "You will never EVER compete in real (read heads up) competition when you have an engine based on less than 1.0 bore/stroke ratio. And 1.0 is the bare MINIMUM. It's just stupid."......I did not change or twist anything....just wondering what others think about that....

Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 05:54 PM

Quote:

Wow 6pk thanks for chiming in on all the questions you were asked straight up out front. You seem to enjoy just taking little bits of this post here n there to try to belittle some on here. I say so what. Who cares. Eventually there may be someone in the Mopar interest, that has the money to build produce something for the Mopar top runners. Most here on the site as a majority are handicapped racers. They race themselves to run a number. Some here run a class set number. Me myself, I have no money, and don't know nothing or anything about what it takes to build and race cars. I do know that when I get to go to the races, I get to see a sport that has been slowly dying, stands empty and a bunch of local dedicated people just having fun by running what they brung to win a little money on a saturday night or just get out with the guys and enjoy the sport. The ones that are posting on this topic, do have the money to buy what they want , it's just not there yet. ok So be it. What I just can't understand is who died and made you king biatch around here to just keep irritation going? The upper level racers will eventually get something handed down to them in the meantime, the rest are happy to have what we have to enjoy what drag racing was all about. Sooner or later there will be a cap and from what I see , most are going back to handicap racing anyways and enjoying the sport for what it used to be, having fun. The key to racing around here with what we have in any brand name is trying to get a win light with 2 time trials and going rounds to the end with your dial in on a window.

You just seem to be too irritating to post up on this board. It wasn't created to start trying to belittle anyone, it was to share our adventures and acomplishments on what we have to work with. Im not trying to bash you or anyone else, far from it. I enjoy a sport, and like to read what others have been doing with their projects on their budjets. Being the fastest and quickest isnt all that it's cracked up to be. Eventually you turn into a slave instead of loving what you like to do. If had enough money to build whatever I wanted, I would still be bracket racing. It's relaxing and brings out family n fun for the weekend.

Now MoparAl are you saying some of these people who live up North out West or other parts of the World are Red-Necks????

PS do you want to tell the non-Red-Necks on here what Monte was talking about when he said one of them Red-Necks had a Hard On for him or should I?

That might not be Moparts Legal,so for the ones who do not know/understand Rent the movie Deliverance and watch it tonight!

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 06:00 PM

ou claim: "You will never EVER compete in real (read heads up) competition when you have an engine based on less than 1.0 bore/stroke ratio. And 1.0 is the bare MINIMUM. It's just stupid."......I did not change or twist anything....just wondering what others think about that....

I will be the first to admit, when Monte and Tim (mad scientist) speak, I shut my pie hole and try to learn something. There are others here who's opinion I respect, as well, but the list is getting shorter when they get chased off. Tim has done some sweet port work for me, and I used to work and hang at the shop he worked at. No one that knew him ever doubted his knowledge, talent or experience. So he is lightyears beyond where I will ever be, as now I just run what people like him research and develop. The same goes for Marsh, Monte, Best, Sunset Racecraft, Huntsville, ETC.
That's what this post is about. When people of this caliber take the time to impart their hard earned knowledge, it's best to just STFU and listen. You might even learn something.

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 06:08 PM

Oh....I forgot....the nice guy thing is a stretch though.

Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 06:11 PM

I left an above post of mine some what unfinished.I was Shocked at how all the Mopart people were at each others throat like a Bunch of Red-Necks on here instead of trying to help each other,but did not mean that as a Bad Thing.In Fact I don't just like it it I Love it.I went to T-Mobile yesterday and traded in my old out dated phone that would only talk for one of the new latest greatest phones.It will do anything you can think of you can not only talk on it but listen to Rock&Roll music,text(what ever the hell that is)check the weather but best of all get on the internet any where at the Race Track if we/Band or playing at a Club even at Wal-Mart's.
Now I sure most of you are now wondering whats so great about that right??? I'll tell you because the next time I am at one of those places and I hear some SOB say the South is the only place in the World that has Red-Necks,I'm gonna keep this site this post on speed dial and I'm gonna pull it up and stick right in there face and say or you "SURE BOUT THAT" there is RED-NECKS on here from all over the World!

Now don't take offense to any that because I likes all of you Red-Necks,because to be Honest with everyone if you can be a Sharp Dressed Man,not have Green Teeth,live in a nice Home,drive fine Automobiles and still be a Red-Neck then I might just be one to.

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 06:41 PM

Quote:

if you can be a Sharp Dressed Man,not have Green Teeth,live in a nice Home,drive fine Automobiles and still be a Red-Neck then I might just be one to.

Yup, theres lots of them like that

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 06:46 PM

I have said it once and will say it again, biggest bore , then stroke it to the biggest diaplacment. NASCAR does it this way, IRL, Formula 1 they all do it this way. You don't see ANY NASCAR builders running a shorter stroke to get more out of it. They run the biggest bore the rules allow then stroke it to the maximum displacement allowed. When you are trying to squeeze every last HP and foot pound of TQ possible then that is how it is done end of story. I am not talking bracket engine builders or street builders (they should do the same as far as there budget or rules allows) but the guys being paid millions to get 5 more hp do it that way. If NASCAR said you could run a 4 inch stroke with the current bore (4.185)you would see them ALL running 4 inch stroke in a couple weeks, same with 4.5 stroke, bore to stroke ratio be danged they would run as big as possible. If Formula 1 said they could run a 2 inch stroke with the current bore they would all do it and very quickly, you would be shocked how fast they would get it done, they would trade some rod length for stroke also if that was needed.

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 07:10 PM

Quote:

I have said it once and will say it again, biggest bore , then stroke it to the biggest diaplacment. NASCAR does it this way, IRL, Formula 1 they all do it this way. You don't see ANY NASCAR builders running a shorter stroke to get more out of it. They run the biggest bore the rules allow then stroke it to the maximum displacement allowed. When you are trying to squeeze every last HP and foot pound of TQ possible then that is how it is done end of story. I am not talking bracket engine builders or street builders (they should do the same as far as there budget or rules allows) but the guys being paid millions to get 5 more hp do it that way. If NASCAR said you could run a 4 inch stroke with the current bore (4.185)you would see them ALL running 4 inch stroke in a couple weeks, same with 4.5 stroke, bore to stroke ratio be danged they would run as big as possible. If Formula 1 said they could run a 2 inch stroke with the current bore they would all do it and very quickly, you would be shocked how fast they would get it done, they would trade some rod length for stroke also if that was needed.

The problem I have is with your example, not your answer.

There is almost never (I say almost because I admit, I don't know everything) a sanctioning body that stipulates engine geometry the way you have stated it. That is why I used Pro Stock as my example. The have a minimum weight, maximum displacement, 2x4's and gasoline. There are some newer, idiotic rules (like the 1090 minimum rule) but for the most part, that is Pro Stock. There is more than 1 way to get to 500 CID but the PS guys use the biggest bore and stroke for final displacement just as you said. But there is no minimum bore, max bore or stroke specs. In Top Fuel, they are 500 CID , but the bores (as far as I have seen) is a rather mundane 4.375 and is stroked to get displacement.

I do know in NASCRAP they don't have a minimum stroke, so they GENERALLY use the biggest bore (allowing for some overbore capabilities) and stroke for displacement.

As for the long debated R/S ratio thing. It gets old repeating but I will try one more time. When you are induction limited (and all the 4 V/cyl guys claim 2 V/cyl heads are intake limited) much more thought and care should be given to R/S ratios. Just the frictional losses dues to stroke length ( lets not forget about windage losses...in the 1960's Chrysler engineers KNEW that a hemi turing 8000 rpm's would hold 8 quarts of oil around the crank...with a 3.75 stroke!!!!) eats up a big percentage of what gains there are from increased strokes and high rod ratios (lower numerically). Induction limited packages should spend more time thinking about R/S ratios and less about torque under minimum calculated RPM (or observed). Just my humble opinion.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 07:23 PM

Quote:

ou claim: "You will never EVER compete in real (read heads up) competition when you have an engine based on less than 1.0 bore/stroke ratio. And 1.0 is the bare MINIMUM. It's just stupid."......I did not change or twist anything....just wondering what others think about that....

I will be the first to admit, when Monte and Tim (mad scientist) speak, I shut my pie hole and try to learn something. There are others here who's opinion I respect, as well, but the list is getting shorter when they get chased off. Tim has done some sweet port work for me, and I used to work and hang at the shop he worked at. No one that knew him ever doubted his knowledge, talent or experience. So he is lightyears beyond where I will ever be, as now I just run what people like him research and develop. The same goes for Marsh, Monte, Best, Sunset Racecraft, Huntsville, ETC.
That's what this post is about. When people of this caliber take the time to impart their hard earned knowledge, it's best to just STFU and listen. You might even learn something.

Well, if you respect and listen to him sooooo much,....
why did you build what HE would call, a "stupid" and "geometrically retarded" engine....and you are in search of another Mopar block...and you want to build a 4.7 bore x 5.5 minimum stroke engine that he would really classify as "stupid" and "geometrically retarded".....??

Tim and Monte appear to be at opposite ends on their engine beliefs.....Monte says he can and has won in heads up races with what Tim describes as "stupid" and "geometrically retarded" engines...that will Never EVER win....

It's understandably puzzling....

Posted By: HotRodDave

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 07:40 PM

Top fuel has to run a certain bore spacing, 8000 HP requires a certain cylinder wall thickness to live, hence the small bore. It is as big as reasonably possible within the rules. No specified limit directly on the bore size but the block is the limit. Same with pro stock, bore spacing is limited so in a way so is actual bore, you just can't run a .010 wall between the cylinders. Both stroke to the max (allowed by the rules) displacement after they settle on a bore that will live.

You are right on about R/S ratio as for how it works and the benefits but I think displacement trumps it to a farther degree than most would think.

Also there are not huge frictional losses due to long strokes (unless you try to run the same RPM), they just run lower RPM through gearing and friction is then basically a wash.

Posted By: tboomer

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 07:40 PM

You boys about done with the crap so the rest of us here can try and learn something?

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 07:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

ou claim: "You will never EVER compete in real (read heads up) competition when you have an engine based on less than 1.0 bore/stroke ratio. And 1.0 is the bare MINIMUM. It's just stupid."......I did not change or twist anything....just wondering what others think about that....

I will be the first to admit, when Monte and Tim (mad scientist) speak, I shut my pie hole and try to learn something. There are others here who's opinion I respect, as well, but the list is getting shorter when they get chased off. Tim has done some sweet port work for me, and I used to work and hang at the shop he worked at. No one that knew him ever doubted his knowledge, talent or experience. So he is lightyears beyond where I will ever be, as now I just run what people like him research and develop. The same goes for Marsh, Monte, Best, Sunset Racecraft, Huntsville, ETC.
That's what this post is about. When people of this caliber take the time to impart their hard earned knowledge, it's best to just STFU and listen. You might even learn something.

Well, if you respect and listen to him sooooo much,....
why did you build what HE would call, a "stupid" and "geometrically retarded" engine....and you are in search of another Mopar block...and you want to build a 4.7 bore x 5.5 minimum stroke engine that he would really classify as "stupid" and "geometrically retarded".....??

Tim and Monte appear to be at opposite ends on their engine beliefs.....Monte says he can and has won in heads up races with what Tim describes as "stupid" and "geometrically retarded" engines...that will Never EVER win....

It's understandably puzzling....

DUDE, REALLY?

Tom built what he had, to meet a gaol. He's not there yet, but close. I'm not opposed to doing what Tom did, when you have NO CHOICE. If he had other choices we could talk about that. Choices for Chrysler guy are virtually NON EXISTENT.

So, since as I understand it, you don't race anything, or build anything, I will you a fact. Delay boxes, throttle stops, trick heads and camshafts, big displacement, small displacement, power glides, 5 speeds, clutches...none of that wins races. Great racers find a way to win races with what they have. That's why guys like Tom, Monte, Ken Heard, Butch Shook, Tory Lea, Jeff Marshall and the like win races. Because they are GREAT racers. They win. It's that simple. Now, qualifying at a heads up race and being competitive is a much tougher deal.

CLASS.................DISMISSED

PS...I went old school NW heavy hitters with some of those names there didn't I? Glad to say I know them all. Not that they would claim me..........................

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 07:47 PM

Awe come on Ted a little spirited debate can be fun. As good ole Abraham Lincoln said

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 07:53 PM

Quote:

Quote:

ou claim: "You will never EVER compete in real (read heads up) competition when you have an engine based on less than 1.0 bore/stroke ratio. And 1.0 is the bare MINIMUM. It's just stupid."......I did not change or twist anything....just wondering what others think about that....

I will be the first to admit, when Monte and Tim (mad scientist) speak, I shut my pie hole and try to learn something. There are others here who's opinion I respect, as well, but the list is getting shorter when they get chased off. Tim has done some sweet port work for me, and I used to work and hang at the shop he worked at. No one that knew him ever doubted his knowledge, talent or experience. So he is lightyears beyond where I will ever be, as now I just run what people like him research and develop. The same goes for Marsh, Monte, Best, Sunset Racecraft, Huntsville, ETC.
That's what this post is about. When people of this caliber take the time to impart their hard earned knowledge, it's best to just STFU and listen. You might even learn something.

Well, if you respect and listen to him sooooo much,....
why did you build what HE would call, a "stupid" and "geometrically retarded" engine....and you are in search of another Mopar block...and you want to build a 4.7 bore x 5.5 minimum stroke engine that he would really classify as "stupid" and "geometrically retarded".....??

Tim and Monte appear to be at opposite ends on their engine beliefs.....Monte says he can and has won in heads up races with what Tim describes as "stupid" and "geometrically retarded" engines...that will Never EVER win....

It's understandably puzzling....

I hate to say this but, I think it's only puzzling to you. I wanted to run with the big dogs with a Mopar......so I went with what I thought was the best option for all of the criteria Ma Mopar had at the time. That was 2011. I also hadn't even considered using anything but the Mopar available stuff, at that time. It will be hard to change. If I do, it will be as a result of needing to go faster, cheaper. If I don't, I'll just reconcile myself with staying where I'm at. Also, I never said anything about me personally wanting a 4.700 bore x 5.500 stroke, I just said it was available for those that did. I think if Monte and Tim had a conversation face to face, they would agree on a lot of engine building techniques and combos. It's hard to type things on here and have someone sniping from the roof top, as it appears you enjoy doing. If that is not your intention, and I'll give you the benefit of doubt, it appears that way and you should know that. If you really don't understand, then it might be best to ask relevant questions instead of trying to make a point that has to this point, been irrelevant.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 08:01 PM

Quote:

You boys about done with the crap so the rest of us here can try and learn something?

Ted, I am trying to learn something here......

Monte says he HAS and WILL win, in a heads up class, with a 632 engine, which has a 4.6 bore x 4.75 stroke,..... but Tim claims that an engine with what he himself calls "stupid" and "Geometrically retarded" bore/stroke like that will not only Never win a heads up race, but will Never EVER win....

Tom says these 2 are very sharp and when they talk, he listens....yet he wants to build a 4.7 bore x 5.5 Minimum stroke engine.....

It is confusing and to me very contradicting statements by 3 guys that each appear to know their stuff. But they all can't be correct....

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 08:30 PM

Quote:

You boys about done with the crap so the rest of us here can try and learn something?

I'm learning

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 08:46 PM

Quote:

"The phrase 'I would rather have more torque than horsepower...' is often heard and misguided" Pretty straight forward isn't it? Here is one more to think about.
Quote "Commit this one to memory.There is an old saying that goes 'there is no replacement for displacement' and although that is novel, it is NOT necessarily the TRUTH"
Emphasis mine.

I'm looking forward to reading this book.

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 09:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

"The phrase 'I would rather have more torque than horsepower...' is often heard and misguided" Pretty straight forward isn't it? Here is one more to think about.
Quote "Commit this one to memory.There is an old saying that goes 'there is no replacement for displacement' and although that is novel, it is NOT necessarily the TRUTH"
Emphasis mine.

I'm looking forward to reading this book.

Read close and enjoy. I'm nowhere near as smart as Bettes and we disagree on some things (yes, I have talked to him and went to a seminar he gave years ago) but you just can't discount what he says.

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 09:37 PM

Quote:

Quote:

You boys about done with the crap so the rest of us here can try and learn something?

Ted, I am trying to learn something here......

Monte says he HAS and WILL win, in a heads up class, with a 632 engine, which has a 4.6 bore x 4.75 stroke,..... but Tim claims that an engine with what he himself calls "stupid" and "Geometrically retarded" bore/stroke like that will not only Never win a heads up race, but will Never EVER win....

Tom says these 2 are very sharp and when they talk, he listens....yet he wants to build a 4.7 bore x 5.5 Minimum stroke engine.....

It is confusing and to me very contradicting statements by 3 guys that each appear to know their stuff. But they all can't be correct....

THere are more than 1 way to skin a cat. Just because Monte and I disagree on engine geometry is not a big deal. What is a big deal is guys like you who have no compass. I have fired customers like you, and I'm proud I have done it. If you don't like what I say, blow off. You can't learn, won't learn.

If I was building what Tom is doing, I would build a 4.560 bore (bigger if I could get it) and use a 4.00 stroke for 523 inches. I would use the absolute longest rod in the tallest block I could buy. My thought is 1250-1275 HP at 8800. That should be high 6's if the rest of the combo is right. And 8800 is not a lot with todays valve train.

See how simple that is.

BTW, it would have 2x4's on it because I think the silliest thing you can do is handicap a package with a kinked up intake.

Flame on keyboard hero.

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 09:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

You boys about done with the crap so the rest of us here can try and learn something?

Ted, I am trying to learn something here......

Monte says he HAS and WILL win, in a heads up class, with a 632 engine, which has a 4.6 bore x 4.75 stroke,..... but Tim claims that an engine with what he himself calls "stupid" and "Geometrically retarded" bore/stroke like that will not only Never win a heads up race, but will Never EVER win....

Tom says these 2 are very sharp and when they talk, he listens....yet he wants to build a 4.7 bore x 5.5 Minimum stroke engine.....

It is confusing and to me very contradicting statements by 3 guys that each appear to know their stuff. But they all can't be correct....

THere are more than 1 way to skin a cat. Just because Monte and I disagree on engine geometry is not a big deal. What is a big deal is guys like you who have no compass. I have fired customers like you, and I'm proud I have done it. If you don't like what I say, blow off. You can't learn, won't learn.

If I was building what Tom is doing, I would build a 4.560 bore (bigger if I could get it) and use a 4.00 stroke for 523 inches. I would use the absolute longest rod in the tallest block I could buy. My thought is 1250-1275 HP at 8800. That should be high 6's if the rest of the combo is right. And 8800 is not a lot with todays valve train.

See how simple that is.

BTW, it would have 2x4's on it because I think the silliest thing you can do is handicap a package with a kinked up intake.

Flame on keyboard hero.

You just keep up with the personal name-calling and attacks...and conveniently ignore facts......

According to what YOU say.....Monte has and never EVER will win a heads-up Race with his "silly" and "geometrically retarded" engine combo....He and others may disagree......So it appears your theory's work better on the keyboard than in real life !! Monte said he just won a race a few weeks ago !!! End of Story !!

And your friend Tom hasn't even hired you to build his engine...wonder why ?? Maybe he has doubts about your beliefs....wait, not maybe, he obviously ignored you completely and has been for years !!

Posted By: Triple Threat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 10:00 PM

Quote:

That's why guys like Tom, Monte, Ken Heard, Butch Shook, Tory Lea, Jeff Marshall and the like win races. Because they are GREAT racers. They win.

PS...I went old school NW heavy hitters with some of those names there didn't I? Glad to say I know them all. Not that they would claim me..........................

I'm a little too young to know all of those names, but most of them I do know.

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 10:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

You boys about done with the crap so the rest of us here can try and learn something?

Ted, I am trying to learn something here......

Monte says he HAS and WILL win, in a heads up class, with a 632 engine, which has a 4.6 bore x 4.75 stroke,..... but Tim claims that an engine with what he himself calls "stupid" and "Geometrically retarded" bore/stroke like that will not only Never win a heads up race, but will Never EVER win....

Tom says these 2 are very sharp and when they talk, he listens....yet he wants to build a 4.7 bore x 5.5 Minimum stroke engine.....

It is confusing and to me very contradicting statements by 3 guys that each appear to know their stuff. But they all can't be correct....

THere are more than 1 way to skin a cat. Just because Monte and I disagree on engine geometry is not a big deal. What is a big deal is guys like you who have no compass. I have fired customers like you, and I'm proud I have done it. If you don't like what I say, blow off. You can't learn, won't learn.

If I was building what Tom is doing, I would build a 4.560 bore (bigger if I could get it) and use a 4.00 stroke for 523 inches. I would use the absolute longest rod in the tallest block I could buy. My thought is 1250-1275 HP at 8800. That should be high 6's if the rest of the combo is right. And 8800 is not a lot with todays valve train.

See how simple that is.

BTW, it would have 2x4's on it because I think the silliest thing you can do is handicap a package with a kinked up intake.

Flame on keyboard hero.

You just keep up with the personal name-calling and attacks...and conveniently ignore facts......

According to what YOU say.....Monte has and never EVER will win a heads-up Race with his "silly" and "geometrically retarded" engine combo....He and others may disagree......So it appears your theory's work better on the keyboard than in real life !! Monte said he just won a race a few weeks ago !!! End of Story !!

And your friend Tom hasn't even hired you to build his engine...wonder why ?? Maybe he has doubts about your beliefs....wait, not maybe, he obviously ignored you completely and has been for years !!

The main reason I don't use him is, he builds engines for people on a very limited basis and restores guns for most of his livelihood. I moved 800 miles away from where he lives which might have something to do with it, as well.
What exactly is your motivation here dude? To keep this thread going with badgering and drivel? I'm not sure why you continually act like an ignoramus. A mechanical goober with nothing to back up your comments. Is there any purpose to your shooting your keyboard mouth off other than to p!ss people off trying to grow their knowledge?

Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 10:41 PM

Quote:

ou claim: "You will never EVER compete in real (read heads up) competition when you have an engine based on less than 1.0 bore/stroke ratio. And 1.0 is the bare MINIMUM. It's just stupid."......I did not change or twist anything....just wondering what others think about that....

I will be the first to admit, when Monte and Tim (mad scientist) speak, I shut my pie hole and try to learn something. There are others here who's opinion I respect, as well, but the list is getting shorter when they get chased off. Tim has done some sweet port work for me, and I used to work and hang at the shop he worked at. No one that knew him ever doubted his knowledge, talent or experience. So he is lightyears beyond where I will ever be, as now I just run what people like him research and develop. The same goes for Marsh, Monte, Best, Sunset Racecraft, Huntsville, ETC.
That's what this post is about. When people of this caliber take the time to impart their hard earned knowledge, it's best to just STFU and listen. You might even learn something.

Tom,like you I listen to everything some of the guys in the know like you mention have to say.Some of them are good some of them or just salesman with book knowledge,but will give them credit to maybe that book knowledge even if they don't/can't do the work could be useful in sharing the information with someone who could.I see some that are good in some area's but in others they are not.At long last I now see a lot of people for what they are Red-Necks and now that I know not to pay them any attention have come to some what enjoy laughing at what they say.

For conversation we can call the ones you mention Pro's and the others Red-Necks.
Now what I used have a problem with is the Red-Necks,but they have just as much right to have there say as the Pro's.And if there is going to be any finger pointing you must 1st point to the so call Pro's who should be smart enough not to come on here and talk down too and try to belittle the Red-Necks and think they will bow down to them!
And in closing don't you Daymn Red-Necks have sense enough not to try and run the Pro's off.But if you must.......

PS when are we going to learn from post like this and start helping and working with each other????Now I might be just a Bracket Racer but I am smart enough to know this is not helping the Mopar movement!

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 10:48 PM

I hear ya 622, but some people just want to cause trouble. If it's not productive in some way, why say it? Debate is fine, but this guy doesn't know these people and obviously doesn't know of them either.

Posted By: GTX MATT

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/24/14 11:52 PM

You know whats ironic, madscientist keeps talking about the screwed up geometry of the stroker motors. I don't know much about the actual effects only what I've been told (i.e. not firsthand experience), but I always liked how the MoPar engineers stayed close to optimum on the bore/stroke and the rod/stroke ratios, I believe they all hover pretty close to 1.8:1 on the rod/stroke other than the 360.

Anyway, I know you're talking about the super high HP apps where the aftermarket has fixed things that Chevy did wrong to make big horsepower. But, as everyone is ALWAYS discredited Ma Mopar for what she did do, it seems that lots of people preach nowadays that B/S and R/S ratios don't matter. Whats their proof? Chevrolet and Ford production engines with 1.5:1 R/S ratios. Who taught us to build geometrically retarded engines? Them GM and Ferd boys! Who tried to tell everyone undersquare motors are torquey? Those olds and pontiac guys with their 4.25 and 4.15 inch strokes. Ya, those engines are "Torque engines" because they can't even live much past 5000 rpm, at least not in near stock form.

And don't forget, the engine with the GM rep as a torque monster hemi killer (

) the 455 Buick, has the shortest stroke of the BOP 455s and Chevy 454 at 3.9 inches.

I know what you mean when you're saying the factory stuff is junk, but for 40 year old factory junk, its pretty good. I think thats why there are some guys who don't want an aftermarket block. For years Mopar racers had an advantage because our stock stuff is better than what everyone else had stock, and better than some of their aftermarket stuff, but its not the case anymore. Lots of us are stuck in the past. Myself included, and I wasn't even there.

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 12:10 AM

After reading this post I can honestly thank God that I am rod, crank, bore, and stroke ratio stupid but smart enough to put my own crap together and go out and race every weekend.

No wonder half of you guys never get a project to the track.

Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 12:21 AM

Quote:

After reading this post I can honestly thank God that I am rod, crank, bore, and stroke ratio stupid but smart enough to put my own crap together and go out and race every weekend. No wonder half of you guys never get a project to the track.

The only reason you are able to do it is you just aN o'll Bracket Racer like myself !

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 12:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

After reading this post I can honestly thank God that I am rod, crank, bore, and stroke ratio stupid but smart enough to put my own crap together and go out and race every weekend. No wonder half of you guys never get a project to the track.

The only reason you are able to do it is you just aN o'll Bracket Racer like myself !

Amen and enjoying every last minute of it. But I may be adding something to my bucket list soon.

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 01:53 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

You boys about done with the crap so the rest of us here can try and learn something?

Ted, I am trying to learn something here......

Monte says he HAS and WILL win, in a heads up class, with a 632 engine, which has a 4.6 bore x 4.75 stroke,..... but Tim claims that an engine with what he himself calls "stupid" and "Geometrically retarded" bore/stroke like that will not only Never win a heads up race, but will Never EVER win....

Tom says these 2 are very sharp and when they talk, he listens....yet he wants to build a 4.7 bore x 5.5 Minimum stroke engine.....

It is confusing and to me very contradicting statements by 3 guys that each appear to know their stuff. But they all can't be correct....

THere are more than 1 way to skin a cat. Just because Monte and I disagree on engine geometry is not a big deal. What is a big deal is guys like you who have no compass. I have fired customers like you, and I'm proud I have done it. If you don't like what I say, blow off. You can't learn, won't learn.

If I was building what Tom is doing, I would build a 4.560 bore (bigger if I could get it) and use a 4.00 stroke for 523 inches. I would use the absolute longest rod in the tallest block I could buy. My thought is 1250-1275 HP at 8800. That should be high 6's if the rest of the combo is right. And 8800 is not a lot with todays valve train.

See how simple that is.

BTW, it would have 2x4's on it because I think the silliest thing you can do is handicap a package with a kinked up intake.

Flame on keyboard hero.

You just keep up with the personal name-calling and attacks...and conveniently ignore facts......

According to what YOU say.....Monte has and never EVER will win a heads-up Race with his "silly" and "geometrically retarded" engine combo....He and others may disagree......So it appears your theory's work better on the keyboard than in real life !! Monte said he just won a race a few weeks ago !!! End of Story !!

And your friend Tom hasn't even hired you to build his engine...wonder why ?? Maybe he has doubts about your beliefs....wait, not maybe, he obviously ignored you completely and has been for years !!

How do you KNOW what I do? I knew some guys would come on here and tell me how good their GM copy cat stuff is. Innovation went out the window. How many comp guys are running 1.0 B/S ratios (or less).

The math also says I'm correct. 532 CID will make the exact same HP as a 632 CID, except the 532 will do it at a higher RPM. And that, my silly friend , will make the 532 QUICKER than the 632, if the guy with the car understands how to make the best of the RPM.

And that, my silly little friend, is a whole 'nother can of worms. It's much easier to use a powerglide than fix your junk, nonhooking car. Can't tell you how many engines I have done (especially dirt cars) where we made more HP on the dyno and went slower on the track. All the circle track gurus (and all the kings men) couldn't get the junk cars to hook. When they finally got sick of getting beat, they fixed their junk chassis and started winning. Silly little boys
Or how about the 13 second dude who says the starting line is crap, and his junk blew the tires off because the track guys cut the pimp juice and cost him the round, and 15 minutes later a guy runs a high 8 on 275's? Fix your junk.

Later dude.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 02:02 AM

Mad... your wasting your time with him.. he doesnt
race or build anything.. but he sure knows it all

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 02:19 AM

Quote:

How do you KNOW what I do? I knew some guys would come on here and tell me how good their GM copy cat stuff is. Innovation went out the window. How many comp guys are running 1.0 B/S ratios (or less).

The math also says I'm correct. 532 CID will make the exact same HP as a 632 CID, except the 532 will do it at a higher RPM. And that, my silly friend , will make the 532 QUICKER than the 632, if the guy with the car understands how to make the best of the RPM.

And that, my silly little friend, is a whole 'nother can of worms. It's much easier to use a powerglide than fix your junk, nonhooking car. Can't tell you how many engines I have done (especially dirt cars) where we made more HP on the dyno and went slower on the track. All the circle track gurus (and all the kings men) couldn't get the junk cars to hook. When they finally got sick of getting beat, they fixed their junk chassis and started winning. Silly little boys
Or how about the 13 second dude who says the starting line is crap, and his junk blew the tires off because the track guys cut the pimp juice and cost him the round, and 15 minutes later a guy runs a high 8 on 275's? Fix your junk.

Later dude.

Mad... your wasting your time with him.. he doesnt
race or build anything.. but he sure knows it all

Ummmm, don't think he's talking to me....

I guess he is addressing those who run 632 chevys with powerglides........who could be quicker with a 532 if they had a clue to what they were doing....according to him.....

Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 02:33 AM

Quote:

Awe come on Ted a little spirited debate can be fun. As good ole Abraham Lincoln said

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"

If I'm reading this thread correctly, there's a Dil Doe here among us..

It's just spelled differently..

Chris..

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 02:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Awe come on Ted a little spirited debate can be fun. As good ole Abraham Lincoln said

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt"

If I'm reading this thread correctly, there's a Dil Doe here among us..

It's just spelled differently..

Chris..

That would be putting it ... nicely

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 02:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:

How do you KNOW what I do? I knew some guys would come on here and tell me how good their GM copy cat stuff is. Innovation went out the window. How many comp guys are running 1.0 B/S ratios (or less).

The math also says I'm correct. 532 CID will make the exact same HP as a 632 CID, except the 532 will do it at a higher RPM. And that, my silly friend , will make the 532 QUICKER than the 632, if the guy with the car understands how to make the best of the RPM.

And that, my silly little friend, is a whole 'nother can of worms. It's much easier to use a powerglide than fix your junk, nonhooking car. Can't tell you how many engines I have done (especially dirt cars) where we made more HP on the dyno and went slower on the track. All the circle track gurus (and all the kings men) couldn't get the junk cars to hook. When they finally got sick of getting beat, they fixed their junk chassis and started winning. Silly little boys
Or how about the 13 second dude who says the starting line is crap, and his junk blew the tires off because the track guys cut the pimp juice and cost him the round, and 15 minutes later a guy runs a high 8 on 275's? Fix your junk.

Later dude.

Mad... your wasting your time with him.. he doesnt
race or build anything.. but he sure knows it all

I'm talking to you, it's just over your head.

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 02:51 AM

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 03:25 AM

You guys are funny......letting 6pacrunner stir you up.

Posted By: Monte_Smith

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 03:57 AM

I am NOT building high winding, small cube N/A Comp engines. We build big nitrous motors...........There is not a 532 on the planet that will run with a good 632 on nitrous. Won't happen, I don't car how high you spin it.

Something that works on paper and something that works in the real world are two different things.

ALL big motors are over center, they have to be. How else you going to build an 800" motor within the confines of a normal block

Monte

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 04:05 AM

Quote:

I am NOT building high winding, small cube N/A Comp engines. We build big nitrous motors...........There is not a 532 on the planet that will run with a good 632 on nitrous. Won't happen, I don't car how high you spin it.

Something that works on paper and something that works in the real world are two different things.

ALL big motors are over center, they have to be. How else you going to build an 800" motor within the confines of a normal block

Monte

So who ya gonna spoon with now Chris n mr p-body.....Mad scientist or Monte ?

Posted By: voigtspeed

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 04:38 AM

I would like to meet some of the people in person who seem to only go on this and other sites to hide behind their computer and and safely irritate and upset others that are willing to share their knowledge and ideas with us all.

With the free time they seem to have its hard to believe they even have a race car or knowledge about them from experience.

Those of us that actually are builders are more than aware the time invested in our work and how valuable time becomes and we don't waste it solely to talk stupid and irritate..............

I hope fools like this will not chase away people like monte who share their valuable hard learned knowledge with us mopar few..........

It would be great to see a photo of the agitators in case I happen about them in public just to see if their mouth still operates face to face.

I am thinking these type of people only speak up at a safe distance......

Thanks to all that contribute and respect others that do.

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 04:49 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I am NOT building high winding, small cube N/A Comp engines. We build big nitrous motors...........There is not a 532 on the planet that will run with a good 632 on nitrous. Won't happen, I don't car how high you spin it.

Something that works on paper and something that works in the real world are two different things.

ALL big motors are over center, they have to be. How else you going to build an 800" motor within the confines of a normal block

Monte

So who ya gonna spoon with now Chris n mr p-body.....Mad scientist or Monte ?

Pay attention goofball. Monte is talking about a nitrous engine. I said N/A. Two different things. But you are too silly to get it. And, as Monte said, how are you going to get an over center (as he calls it) to run without a power adder.

So neither Monte or myself is wrong.

Bad day to be you.

Posted By: Duner

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 04:52 AM

I'm actually pretty surprised. In previous days/years - a thread like this would have seen some moderation to curtail trolling and purposeful irritating of other members. It seems as though Yellow Bullet has worn off on a few. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy Yellow Bullet - but this is not Yellow Bullet.

This is Moparts.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 04:54 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I am NOT building high winding, small cube N/A Comp engines. We build big nitrous motors...........There is not a 532 on the planet that will run with a good 632 on nitrous. Won't happen, I don't car how high you spin it.

Something that works on paper and something that works in the real world are two different things.

ALL big motors are over center, they have to be. How else you going to build an 800" motor within the confines of a normal block

Monte

So who ya gonna spoon with now Chris n mr p-body.....Mad scientist or Monte ?

Pay attention goofball. Monte is talking about a nitrous engine. I said N/A. Two different things. But you are too silly to get it. And, as Monte said, how are you going to get an over center (as he calls it) to run without a power adder.

So neither Monte or myself is wrong.

Bad day to be you.

I'm glad you guys are quoting this IDIOT ... otherwise
I wouldnt know what he is saying

Posted By: Eric

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 04:59 AM

Seems nobody wants to quit huh...It would be a shame to lock this thread just because we can't act like adults. Next person who feels they need to make a backhanded comment about someone else in this thread is taking a break. That means no "I have to get the last word in" comments. The debate can continue without being personal.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 05:02 AM

Quote:

Seems nobody wants to quit huh...It would be a shame to lock this thread just because we can't act like adults. Next person who feels they need to make a backhanded comment about someone else in this thread is taking a break. That means no "I have to get the last word in" comments. The debate can continue without being personal.

My error in that case... carry on with the discussion

Posted By: Anonymous

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 05:33 AM

Quote:

Monte is talking about a nitrous engine. I said N/A. Two different things. But you are too silly to get it. And, as Monte said, how are you going to get an over center (as he calls it) to run without a power adder.

So neither Monte or myself is wrong.

You have NEVER said N/A in ANY of your posts, but ok...nice save....somebody should let Sonny Leonard and his customers know that they don't need all those 700, 800, 900, 1000 ci N/A "overcenter" engines when they could be going faster with less stroke, IF they know how to get down the track......

And Tom should take you up on that "simple" 1250-1275hp 523" N/A Mopar engine you proposed.....be neat to see that. Thats about 2.4hp/ci.....pretty impressive, especially for only 8800 rpm

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 06:13 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Monte is talking about a nitrous engine. I said N/A. Two different things. But you are too silly to get it. And, as Monte said, how are you going to get an over center (as he calls it) to run without a power adder.

So neither Monte or myself is wrong.

You have NEVER said N/A in ANY of your posts, but ok...nice save....somebody should let Sonny Leonard and his customers know that they don't need all those 700, 800, 900, 1000 ci N/A "overcenter" engines when they could be going faster with less stroke, IF they know how to get down the track......

And Tom should take you up on that "simple" 1250-1275hp 523" N/A Mopar engine you proposed.....be neat to see that. Thats about 2.4hp/ci.....pretty impressive, especially for only 8800 rpm

Really? Did I say power adders? Do I need to spell it all out?

You should copy Larry Larsen. He uses twin turbos. That MUST be the answer to everything right? Class rules Maybe? Figure it out fool. Ridiculous. You would argue with a fire hydrant. And then lie and say you wouldn't.

Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 08:53 AM

Quote:

I would love to respond to this, but I am at a loss where to even start....I think I better wait a day or two...

Being as he's one good engine builder, and a good guy too.. I have to say..

Todd's the real genius here..

Chris..

Posted By: slammedR/T

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 03:31 PM

I was enjoying this thread until Michael Jackson stole my popcorn, I'm gonna pop him in the head

Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 04:39 PM

It would be an interesting read if we could have just the real engine builders only have a so to speak engine build off against each other.

They get to choose their engine of choice be it Mopar,ford or chevy.
No nos, blowers,superchargers or prochargers all motor!

And if you name is not on the list at the start you can not post or join in no matter how good you are once it is started!

PS not that I don't find this post amusing as it is,but would not mind learning a few things.

Posted By: 74yellowduster

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 04:57 PM

there is still some advances in mopar technology

i know it is supercharged but 7.07sec/200+mph is still impressive

http://www.nmcadigital.com/2013/09/19/br...r-for-rob-goss/

i'm not sure but a N/A version could be produced that would still be pretty damn potent.

maybe too many plug wires to figure out?

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 05:04 PM

Quote:

It would be an interesting read if we could have just the real engine builders only have a so to speak engine build off against each other.

They get to choose their engine of choice be it Mopar,ford or chevy.
No nos, blowers,superchargers or prochargers all motor!
And if you name is not on the list at the start you can not post or join in no matter how good you are once it is started!

PS not that I don't find this post amusing as it is,but would not mind learning a few things.

Posted By: slammedR/T

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 06:04 PM

Quote:

It would be an interesting read if we could have just the real engine builders only have a so to speak engine build off against each other.

They get to choose their engine of choice be it Mopar,ford or chevy.
No nos, blowers,superchargers or prochargers all motor!
And if you name is not on the list at the start you can not post or join in no matter how good you are once it is started!

PS not that I don't find this post amusing as it is,but would not mind learning a few things.

Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 08:46 PM

Quote:

It would be an interesting read if we could have just the real engine builders only have a so to speak engine build off against each other.

They get to choose their engine of choice be it Mopar,ford or chevy.
No nos, blowers,superchargers or prochargers all motor!
And if you name is not on the list at the start you can not post or join in no matter how good you are once it is started!

PS not that I don't find this post amusing as it is,but would not mind learning a few things.

PS,PS It would be nice if each included a build specs sheet showing all clearances and tolerances,like you would get if you brought or had an engine built!

Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 09:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

It would be an interesting read if we could have just the real engine builders only have a so to speak engine build off against each other.

They get to choose their engine of choice be it Mopar,ford or chevy.
No nos, blowers,superchargers or prochargers all motor!
And if you name is not on the list at the start you can not post or join in no matter how good you are once it is started!

PS not that I don't find this post amusing as it is,but would not mind learning a few things.

PS,PS It would be nice if each included a build specs sheet showing all clearances and tolerances,like you would get if you brought or had an engine built!

Yaaaaa right. And if you rub this magic tea pot I will give you three more wishes.

Some build secretes are SECRETE.

Posted By: MRMOPAR622

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/25/14 10:46 PM

Not asking for any Top Secrete type of builds,the specs will show who is for real or not.

It might even be fun for some of the Top Engine Builders,it will give them a chance to go head-head with each other.Be some what like if all of us racers could get together at the same time and do a little Bracket Racing (the dial in equals the playing field)and we would all get to see who was best on that given day.

Posted By: slammedR/T

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/26/14 02:24 AM

Quote:

Not asking for any Top Secrete type of builds,the specs will show who is for real or not.
It might even be fun for some of the Top Engine Builders,it will give them a chance to go head-head with each other.Be some what like if all of us racers could get together at the same time and do a little Bracket Racing (the dial in equals the playing field)and we would all get to see who was best on that given day.

Dude, a Moparts race event would be bad ass actually

Posted By: moparmanjames

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/26/14 04:23 AM

Quote:

there is still some advances in mopar technology

i know it is supercharged but 7.07sec/200+mph is still impressive

http://www.nmcadigital.com/2013/09/19/br...r-for-rob-goss/

i'm not sure but a N/A version could be produced that would still be pretty damn potent.

maybe too many plug wires to figure out?

Here's the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-b8webrRJc

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/26/14 04:56 AM

Wow....1.28 60 ft., 4.65 in the eighth. That should be in the 6.80's with that power, or faster.

Posted By: J_BODY

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/26/14 06:55 AM

wish folks would get their old video cameras out of the closet....

Posted By: Gary Robbins

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/26/14 04:15 PM

Quote:

Wow....1.28 60 ft., 4.65 in the eighth. That should be in the 6.80's with that power, or faster.

He went a 4.59 @159mph with a 1.15 sixty yesterday at No Mercy V at SGMP in Valdosta,Ga.

Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/26/14 04:19 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Wow....1.28 60 ft., 4.65 in the eighth. That should be in the 6.80's with that power, or faster.

He went a 4.59 @159mph with a 1.15 sixty yesterday at No Mercy V at SGMP in Valdosta,Ga.

Thats a big step in both the 60' and the 1/8

Posted By: CompWedgeEngines

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/27/14 03:12 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I would love to respond to this, but I am at a loss where to even start....I think I better wait a day or two...

Being as he's one good engine builder, and a good guy too.. I have to say..

Todd's the real genius here..

And I have continued, and decided TO continue to maintain radio silence during this futile operation..... ...." run silent....run deep"....but the popcorn tastes great.

Chris..

Posted By: Sport440

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/27/14 03:36 AM

I hope, this is the end of this thread.

Posted By: tubtar

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/27/14 06:26 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I would love to respond to this, but I am at a loss where to even start....I think I better wait a day or two...

Being as he's one good engine builder, and a good guy too.. I have to say..

Todd's the real genius here..

And I have continued, and decided TO continue to maintain radio silence during this futile operation..... ...." run silent....run deep"....but the popcorn tastes great.

Chris..

Good plan.......

Attached picture 8282383-popcorn_100000.jpg

Posted By: dodgeboy11

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/29/14 08:12 AM

3k dollar blocks just aren't feasible. I work at a shop where all we see are Brodix sbc and Dart sbf aluminum blocks. At about 3500-4000 a piece. And that's a starting point. This is for a "popular" engine. Us mopar guys tend to be a bit of outcasts. Expecting a quality, aluminum mopar block for anything approaching what the "popular" platforms cost just isn't really realistic. I wish it was, but it just isn't.

Posted By: EchoSixMike

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/29/14 11:21 AM

I was paging through the monthly NMCA paper and Scoggins-Dickey's add had a bunch of different LS-1/7/X blocks for sale. Some were under $1K, FOR AN ALUMINUM BLOCK. So unless Chevy is just dumping, it can be done. S/F....Ken M

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/29/14 01:40 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I am NOT building high winding, small cube N/A Comp engines. We build big nitrous motors...........There is not a 532 on the planet that will run with a good 632 on nitrous. Won't happen, I don't car how high you spin it.

Something that works on paper and something that works in the real world are two different things.

ALL big motors are over center, they have to be. How else you going to build an 800" motor within the confines of a normal block

Monte

So who ya gonna spoon with now Chris n mr p-body.....Mad scientist or Monte ?

Pay attention goofball. Monte is talking about a nitrous engine. I said N/A. Two different things. But you are too silly to get it. And, as Monte said, how are you going to get an over center (as he calls it) to run without a power adder.

So neither Monte or myself is wrong.

Bad day to be you.

I'm glad you guys are quoting this IDIOT ... otherwise
I wouldnt know what he is saying

Wby does this guy have to come from Minnesota? This is embarrassing

Posted By: gregsdart

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/29/14 01:47 PM

Quote:

After reading this post I can honestly thank God that I am rod, crank, bore, and stroke ratio stupid but smart enough to put my own crap together and go out and race every weekend. No wonder half of you guys never get a project to the track.

Posted By: Dunnuck Racing

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/29/14 03:44 PM

This forum used to be a fun, informative place to share information. Now if you give hard earned information out for free a keyboard cowboy will argue with you. What happened?
Keith

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/29/14 06:53 PM

Quote:

This forum used to be a fun, informative place to share information. Now if you give hard earned information out for free a keyboard cowboy will argue with you. What happened?
Keith

I hope it changes. I used to find out lot's of good stuff here, and would, like that to come back. I just finished a Predator build that should have cost several thousand less than it did, and that was the reason for the post. A friend on this site was a huge help in every way, along with people like Pete @ Best. Otherwise, it would have cost much more and taken lots longer.
I should have named it "Engine Builders, you have my sympathy, except Indy"! Indirectly, I bet I spent over $25,000 with them and when I needed info, they just wanted to tell me what they would sell me. Oh well, lesson learned.

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/29/14 09:09 PM

I too would like to see it go back to the old way of sharing information. We will tall anyone anything they want to know. All we can do as racers is share our experiences with the parts we have tried over the years. It gets old coming on here and trying to share our experiences only to be belittle by folks who are either to set in their old ways or never get away from a keyboard long enough to race.

We too are working on out Predator deal. I am very happy for Tom and the way it appears things are headed. I wish nothing but the best for him with this deal .We are doing our best to do it right the first time as well. Already had setbacks with that and now it is apart waiting on some parts to be made to make it right. Hopefully we will eventually have something good to report, dyno numbers and all.

Posted By: camastomcat

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/29/14 09:21 PM

Quote:

I too would like to see it go back to the old way of sharing information. We will tall anyone anything they want to know. All we can do as racers is share our experiences with the parts we have tried over the years. It gets old coming on here and trying to share our experiences only to be belittle by folks who are either to set in their old ways or never get away from a keyboard long enough to race.

We too are working on out Predator deal. I am very happy for Tom and the way it appears things are headed. I wish nothing but the best for him with this deal .We are doing our best to do it right the first time as well. Already had setbacks with that and now it is apart waiting on some parts to be made to make it right. Hopefully we will eventually have something good to report, dyno numbers and all.

Well Al, at least we know the power can be had. I think from our discussions, yours will be more of a max effort NOS build. That is, unless you changed your mind and went a different direction. Good luck with it, and let me know if I can help.

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/29/14 09:38 PM

Only a motor deal for now..If it cannot hang then it will become a nitrous deal next time with less stroke. Still think new can make some decent power but not 2.2hp per cube is within reach this time with the parts I have and the bleeding needs to stop at some point this go around.

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/30/14 01:22 AM

Quote:

Only a motor deal for now..If it cannot hang then it will become a nitrous deal next time with less stroke. Still think new can make some decent power but not 2.2hp per cube is within reach this time with the parts I have and the bleeding needs to stop at some point this go around.

So are you expecting more or less than 2.2 hp/ci? Do you mind posting bore, stroke , rod length and RPM?

Just curious.

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/30/14 07:28 AM

Less...Don't ever really see these heads going much over that honestly.

4.506
4.75
7.100
And as much as it takes to get what we want. I aint afraid of no RPM. but realistically it will likely peak around 7800ish.

The bore will keep it from making what I want, just to small but it is a Mopar whats a guy to do. Other than go back to the 99 stuff I was running. Not the most reliable way to make power. The heads were originally Indy 460 Predator heads like Tom has. But they are getting massaged by a very smart guy who will undoubtedly find something more in them. We will post up all the results once we get there. We are waiting on the heads to return and Jesel to make some bushings right now. Let me just say as of right now it has not been very pretty.

Posted By: madscientist

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/30/14 03:59 PM

Quote:

Less...Don't ever really see these heads going much over that honestly.

4.506
4.75
7.100
And as much as it takes to get what we want. I aint afraid of no RPM. but realistically it will likely peak around 7800ish.

The bore will keep it from making what I want, just to small but it is a Mopar whats a guy to do. Other than go back to the 99 stuff I was running. Not the most reliable way to make power. The heads were originally Indy 460 Predator heads like Tom has. But they are getting massaged by a very smart guy who will undoubtedly find something more in them. We will post up all the results once we get there. We are waiting on the heads to return and Jesel to make some bushings right now. Let me just say as of right now it has not been very pretty.

My math says 606 CID, so 2.0=1212, 2.1=1272.6 and 2.2=1333.2. Since I have never had a good look at the Predators (hands on) I would be willing to flow a predator head for free if you ship it to me. This offer goes to anyone with a predator head.

So was it only a reliability deal that stopped you on the 99 stuff, or was it down on power?

Posted By: LSP

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 10/01/14 12:00 AM

Quote:

I too would like to see it go back to the old way of sharing information. We will tall anyone anything they want to know. All we can do as racers is share our experiences with the parts we have tried over the years. It gets old coming on here and trying to share our experiences only to be belittle by folks who are either to set in their old ways or never get away from a keyboard long enough to race.

I don't think this place is much different than other automotive/racing forums. There is usually more than one way to reach performance goals, it only seems to get rough when there is a disagreement on how to accomplish that.

Posted By: LA360

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 10/01/14 06:15 AM

Quote:

I was paging through the monthly NMCA paper and Scoggins-Dickey's add had a bunch of different LS-1/7/X blocks for sale. Some were under $1K, FOR AN ALUMINUM BLOCK. So unless Chevy is just dumping, it can be done. S/F....Ken M

They would be dumping them at that price, I would be surprised if that covered the cost of the casting and the machining

Posted By: Al_Alguire

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 10/01/14 07:45 AM

The 99 was just a very maintenance heavy deal. Especially for a TS car IMO. Plus I tend to have to race by myself on occasion and no way that is gonna happen with the 99.

It made real good power even backed down from it's pro stock form, it was right at 2.7hp per cube. Honestly if it were simpler to get more cubes is a killer set up. maybe one day I will revisit it but for now wanted to move on. Had a good run with it and won some races and finished second in heads up class with it by 2 points so we feel we represented Mopar well.

As for the Predator deal the heads are in very competent hands rest assured. If there is anything to be had on top of the Indy CNC work, and there is, it will be found. Just not much we can do about that puny little bore for now.

Engine builders, you have my sympathy

Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/18/14 09:18 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/18/14 10:00 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/18/14 10:08 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/18/14 10:39 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 01:18 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 01:32 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 01:45 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 03:35 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 04:20 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 04:24 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 04:24 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 04:32 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 05:31 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 05:39 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 06:56 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 07:10 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 12:27 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 12:53 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 01:11 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 01:30 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 01:52 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 02:11 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 03:19 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 03:34 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 03:42 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 03:48 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 03:51 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 04:12 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 04:25 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 04:26 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 04:40 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 05:21 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 05:30 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 05:30 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 05:37 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 05:38 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 05:49 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 05:53 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 06:18 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 06:19 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 06:37 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 06:47 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 07:01 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 07:32 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 07:33 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 07:42 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 07:44 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 08:22 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 08:43 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 11:04 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 11:10 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 11:23 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 11:43 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 11:44 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/19/14 11:53 PM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 12:30 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 12:37 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 12:51 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 12:56 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 01:07 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 01:21 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 01:28 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 01:40 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 01:47 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 02:16 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 02:31 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 02:35 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 02:51 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 03:01 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 03:06 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 03:08 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 03:13 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 03:15 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 03:32 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 03:47 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 03:59 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 04:25 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 05:27 AM

Re: Engine builders, you have my sympathy - 09/20/14 05:39 AM