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I just put my e-body frame rail in my bath, i make forms to fit, been doing this for many years. I mix one gallon acid with 4 gal. vinegar and 4 gal. water. Cheaper this way but takes a little longer. Make sure you use a neutralizer to keep fron rusting back fast.

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the real issue is, how do you get rid of the stuff when you are done?

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What came from the Earth, returns to the Earth...

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the real issue is, how do you get rid of the stuff when you are done?

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What came from the Earth, returns to the Earth...

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the real issue is, how do you get rid of the stuff when you are done?

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What came from the Earth, returns to the Earth...

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Citric acid, for that matter, is found in fruits and sugars.

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Citric acid, for that matter, is found in fruits and sugars.

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What kind of fruit is muriatic acid found it?

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One thing to watch out for (in addition to safety!) is "hydrogen embitttlement". The acid leaves hydrogen in the metal which reduces strength, especially with repeated cyclic loading. Baking the part afterwards can get the hydrogen out... which is what a good plating house will do.

Slower methods like de-greaser, pressure wash, wire wheel do not introduce hydrogen. Hot tank is good for suspension parts also. Hot tank followed by abrasive blast is really nice.

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Elton John. Seriously.

Muriatic acid is another name for hydrochloric acid, and it is the acid that's in your stomach. It's one of the reasons that we need salt. The chloride ion that occurs when NaCl is dissolved in water is what the body uses to make the acid.

R.

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Does that mean we can swallow small parts and bolts and clean them?

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I've been playing around with diluted Citric acid recently which works very nicely aswell to derust metals.
If you're not in a hurry it will derust rusty metal in a couple of days.

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Vinegar is acetic acid, I don't think it'll neutralize muriatic. Baking soda will.

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the real issue is, how do you get rid of the stuff when you are done?

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When the acid gets really dirty and you want to dispose of it, just add backing soda to it until it stops fizzing. Then you can just dump it.

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Muriatic acid is marketed as a pool cleaner. When it's used for that purpose it's jut left to evaporate or rinsed with water.

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I just put my e-body frame rail in my bath, i make forms to fit, been doing this for many years. I mix one gallon acid with 4 gal. vinegar and 4 gal. water. Cheaper this way but takes a little longer. Make sure you use a neutralizer to keep fron rusting back fast.

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Do you mean your bathroom Bath-tub?

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but what kind of goop came off in it when it was used for stripping parts?

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but what kind of goop came off in it when it was used for stripping parts?

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Iron, and the stuff you were going to scrape off anyways. Once neutralized, no big deal.

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but what kind of goop came off in it when it was used for stripping parts?

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Iron, and the stuff you were going to scrape off anyways. Once neutralized, no big deal.

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Maybe, although the neutralizing itself does little to remove potential heavy metal toxicity, and technically, its far from legal to dump or dispose of haphazardly of any of the waste product.

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but what kind of goop came off in it when it was used for stripping parts?

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Iron, and the stuff you were going to scrape off anyways. Once neutralized, no big deal.

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Maybe, although the neutralizing itself does little to remove potential heavy metal toxicity, and technically, its far from legal to dump or dispose of haphazardly of any of the waste product.

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Virtually everything you stated is incorrect.

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the real issue is, how do you get rid of the stuff when you are done?

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Better put your tinfoil hat back on and look under the bed for the boogeyman!

There is a heck of a lot of difference between iron and "heavy metals".

Neutralized acid is just that, NEUTRALIZED. It's not acid any more. Where I live the soil is basic, adding acid to the soil can actually make things grow better. In other parts of the US, the soil is acidic. What do you thing forms when dead leaves soak in a puddle of water? Tannic acid. What do you think when pure rainwater falls through the air that has some carbon dioxide in it, as Al Gore is so fond of reminding us? Carbonic acid. Acids and bases occur everywhere in nature.

On the other hand, anyone who dumps the contents of a lead/acid battery is putting more lead into the environment and needs to have a .45 caliber lead injection to make him stop. That's real.

Moparts is the place where everything can be made much more difficult and cost-prohibitive if one listens to all the advice.

R.

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Your answer did not disappoint me in more ways then you likely would understand, thank you.

And AndrewH, I believe heavy metals are a concern, what the part was plated with and likely removed by the acid, or what alloys were used in the base metal, could become a part of the waste stream, ie cadmium in the plating , chrome in stainless, lead residue inside the exhaust manifold, etc

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They put muriatic acid and chlorine in pools and your kids drink it, how they doing?

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All you safety nuts are a hoot. I'm in the wood industry and every day something new comes up that i say "Do What". The last one was safety data sheets on sandpaper. Man is such a terrible animal I guess we just should take the dead pill and be done with us all, or just go live in a cave and pick berries and nuts. We are talking 5 gallons at the most, worst stuff comes out of the air and runs off my roof. Heavy metals, what does it do when it just sets there and rusts? Its all about proportions,parts per million,take that 5 gallons and pour in the ocean,can you measure it? They put muriatic acid and chlorine in pools and your kids drink it, how they doing?

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Name calling, and you just don't get it.

Next.

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but what kind of goop came off in it when it was used for stripping parts?

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Iron, and the stuff you were going to scrape off anyways. Once neutralized, no big deal.

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Maybe, although the neutralizing itself does little to remove potential heavy metal toxicity, and technically, its far from legal to dump or dispose of haphazardly of any of the waste product.

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Virtually everything you stated is incorrect.

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We are talking about the location being in the US, in 2014, correct?

Care to stick around and back up that blanket statement?


So do you care to explain to us less informed how a heavy metal is rendered non toxic by a "neutralization"?


Or explain how any involved regulatory agency will turn a blind eye to haphazard disposal of the remnants/byproducts of a unregistered personal metal acid cleaning operation?

And explain how anybody here can tell with certainty what materials, surface or base metal alloys they are removing from a dirty item without any testing?

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. . While gagging from momentarily opening and closing the ice chest with 3 gallons of 30% Muratic Acid.

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I'm no save-the-earth-peta-global-warming's-gonna-be-the-end-of-human-exitance kinda guy myself, but it was this comment above that caused me to respond initially. If you don't care about the environment, at least care about your own body. Those fumes gag you for a reason. They are just as caustic as the liquid. AXC is lucky the outer layer of his eyeballs didn't shrivel up or his sinus linings didn't derust (burn and scar) Hard to drive our Mopars when we can't breathe or see.

Just say'n

Scott

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but what kind of goop came off in it when it was used for stripping parts?

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Iron, and the stuff you were going to scrape off anyways. Once neutralized, no big deal.

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Maybe, although the neutralizing itself does little to remove potential heavy metal toxicity, and technically, its far from legal to dump or dispose of haphazardly of any of the waste product.

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Virtually everything you stated is incorrect.

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We are talking about the location being in the US, in 2014, correct?

Care to stick around and back up that blanket statement?


So do you care to explain to us less informed how a heavy metal is rendered non toxic by a "neutralization"?


Or explain how any involved regulatory agency will turn a blind eye to haphazard disposal of the remnants/byproducts of a unregistered personal metal acid cleaning operation?

And explain how anybody here can tell with certainty what materials, surface or base metal alloys they are removing from a dirty item without any testing?

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Sure.

First, you need to be clear what heavy metals are you talking about. Carbon steel and cast iron have very very little heavy metals of concern. Do you know what they are and common concentrations in acid baths? Do you know the valences? If you don't, saying things like it's toxic, or hazardous are meaningless statements.

Next, do you know the route of entry? For the very low concentrations of of these metals, in this form, ingestion is the only realistic route of entry. So, I would recommend not eating the stuff, and maybe washing your hands when you are done.

Finally, neutralization IS the treatment technology for the heavy metals that we are talking about. They precipitate and become insoluble hydroxides. To maximize the treatment, raising the pH to about 9.0 with your neutralizing agent will bring these heavey metals near the drinking water standards in the water phase.

If you are talking about acid cleaning long terne coated items (such as fuel tanks) or cadmium plated items, that would certainly be a different story. The concentration in the acid would be higher of a couple heavy metals, but the neutralization would still be effective.

I would not be an advocate of dumping the stuff on the ground, but bagging it up and disposing of it in your trash would be both legal and safe. If there are remaining neutralized liquids, the local POTW can easily manage that as well. If you are a business, you should probably conduct the appropriate leach test for liability reasons as your responsibilities are different than residential/homeowners.

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And if there is ANY stainless involved, with the OP's process, chromium is likely present in the process, and the the current federal water limits I believe for toxicity is, wait for it, 0.00ppb.
You and I are the only ones who have even mentioned the complications of cadmium, the rest?

The arrogance of ignorance maybe comforting to some, but trying to understand a process beyond the immediate concerns of rust removal, I guess for many requires too much responsibility.

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but what kind of goop came off in it when it was used for stripping parts?

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Iron, and the stuff you were going to scrape off anyways. Once neutralized, no big deal.

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Maybe, although the neutralizing itself does little to remove potential heavy metal toxicity, and technically, its far from legal to dump or dispose of haphazardly of any of the waste product.

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Virtually everything you stated is incorrect.

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We are talking about the location being in the US, in 2014, correct?

Care to stick around and back up that blanket statement?


So do you care to explain to us less informed how a heavy metal is rendered non toxic by a "neutralization"?


Or explain how any involved regulatory agency will turn a blind eye to haphazard disposal of the remnants/byproducts of a unregistered personal metal acid cleaning operation?

And explain how anybody here can tell with certainty what materials, surface or base metal alloys they are removing from a dirty item without any testing?

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Sure.

First, you need to be clear what heavy metals are you talking about. Carbon steel and cast iron have very very little heavy metals of concern. Do you know what they are and common concentrations in acid baths? Do you know the valences? If you don't, saying things like it's toxic, or hazardous are meaningless statements.

Next, do you know the route of entry? For the very low concentrations of of these metals, in this form, ingestion is the only realistic route of entry. So, I would recommend not eating the stuff, and maybe washing your hands when you are done.

Finally, neutralization IS the treatment technology for the heavy metals that we are talking about. They precipitate and become insoluble hydroxides. To maximize the treatment, raising the pH to about 9.0 with your neutralizing agent will bring these heavey metals near the drinking water standards in the water phase.

If you are talking about acid cleaning long terne coated items (such as fuel tanks) or cadmium plated items, that would certainly be a different story. The concentration in the acid would be higher of a couple heavy metals, but the neutralization would still be effective.

I would not be an advocate of dumping the stuff on the ground, but bagging it up and disposing of it in your trash would be both legal and safe. If there are remaining neutralized liquids, the local POTW can easily manage that as well. If you are a business, you should probably conduct the appropriate leach test for liability reasons as your responsibilities are different than residential/homeowners.

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So what percentage, if any here, comprehend your statement:
"Finally, neutralization IS the treatment technology for the heavy metals that we are talking about. They precipitate and become insoluble hydroxides. To maximize the treatment, raising the pH to about 9.0 with your neutralizing agent will bring these heavey metals near the drinking water standards in the water phase."

And if there is ANY stainless involved, with the OP's process, chromium is likely present in the process, and the the current federal water limits I believe for toxicity is, wait for it, 0.00ppb.
You and I are the only ones who have even mentioned the complications of cadmium, the rest?

The arrogance of ignorance maybe comforting to some, but trying to understand a process beyond the immediate concerns of rust removal, I guess for many requires too much responsibility.

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And another for what it's worth,don't let any sit in an open container,it will give a surface coat of rust to anything within six feet or more and thats a fact !!

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Six feet? LOL! I wish it was only six feet. I left a plastic watering can with a smidgen left in the bottom in my garage over night (I had cleaned my driveway with it). The fumes flash rusted EVERY bare piece of metal in my garage, including the entire stripped front clip of my '72 Satty. I had already blasted the trunk floor and front floor pans too...yup, flashed. Pissed me off so bad I haven't touched the Satty in months and I'm now selling it. All that work sand blasting with a Harbor Freight blaster with about an inch wide spread, just to have it all flashed in a single night.

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Stay safe and be sane.

Number 1. Using acid to remove dirt, oil, and gunk is poor workmanship and a bad choice of methods. Better to use your wife's dishwasher with hot water and strong ammonia-containing soap or some other effective cleaning method.

Number 2. Insert only clean objects free of dirt, oil, and rust scale in a de-rusting chemical to preserve the strength and effectiveness of the chemical. It's a waste of the chemical to dissolve rust scale and cut oils that could have been easily removed.

Number 3. If you are trying to restore a piece of metal, generally speaking HCl is overkill and way too corrosive and unsafe. If the piece being restored has spot welds, HCl left in the cracks can keep on corroding and pop the welds. Something a lot less potent, such as vinegar or Evapo-Rust will get the job done effectively and safely. Yes, one of these is not cheap, but if you use good workmanship and follow Number 2 above, you won't waste it.

Number 4. Remove any object from any rust removing chemical immediately as soon as de-rusting is accomplished.

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If I neutralize the acid bath after use, it too should contain dirt, oil, water and bits of metal right? So shouldn't this qualify as acceptable to dump in the used oil dump at the parts store?

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No. The metals/metal oxides and dirt is not the problem. (It would also contain salts, but again they would not be a problem either.) The reason why is because it only contains a small amount of oil (hydrocarbons) and a lot of water in the solution. As we all learned in grade school science classes, oil and water will not mix, they separate into layers given enough time (unless acted upon by detergents, which interacts with both layers). Where the layers sit depends upon the densities of the materials. Recycling companies do not want to mess with used oil that has been contaminated with large quantities of water and not properly separated. If you separated (ie. decanted off) the oil layers from the cleaning process and disposed of them in the used oil recycling container, that is fine. But, you cannot just dump all of the aqueous solution in there as well. You will become liable for the disposal costs if you do so. Open your wallet wide if that happens....

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Now HF will kill you. It is both a strong acid and very very toxic, and will absorb into the body on contact through your skin. H2SO4 can also be considerably more dangerous than HCl, depending on concentration.

I'm all for doing the right thing, but today's hysteria over everything being toxic is simply mis-information. In our 5 second sound bit society, we don't even bother with the details of science.

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Stay safe and be sane.

Number 1. Using acid to remove dirt, oil, and gunk is poor workmanship and a bad choice of methods. Better to use your wife's dishwasher with hot water and strong ammonia-containing soap or some other effective cleaning method.

Number 2. Insert only clean objects free of dirt, oil, and rust scale in a de-rusting chemical to preserve the strength and effectiveness of the chemical. It's a waste of the chemical to dissolve rust scale and cut oils that could have been easily removed.

Number 3. If you are trying to restore a piece of metal, generally speaking HCl is overkill and way too corrosive and unsafe. If the piece being restored has spot welds, HCl left in the cracks can keep on corroding and pop the welds. Something a lot less potent, such as vinegar or Evapo-Rust will get the job done effectively and safely. Yes, one of these is not cheap, but if you use good workmanship and follow Number 2 above, you won't waste it.

Number 4. Remove any object from any rust removing chemical immediately as soon as de-rusting is accomplished.

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1. It's not a bad method. It's just a method.
2. The whole point of the acid bath was to remove dirt oil and rust.
3. Driving a car is unsafe. Having sex is unsafe. Flying in a plane is unsafe. playing football is unsafe. All one can do is to be as safe as possible doing any of these things, and it's no different when using chemicals to clean metal, wood, or anything else. Also, the parts Im dipping have no welds.
4. Agreed.

From now on I will be neutralizing my acid when finished. I dont mind disposing of it at the dump's hazardous chemical hut. But there is also a free oil dump at one of the local parts stores. In this oil dump, you can dispose used motor oil that is full of carcinogens, metals, dirt and water.

If I neutralize the acid bath after use, it too should contain dirt, oil, water and bits of metal right? So shouldn't this qualify as acceptable to dump in the used oil dump at the parts store?

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Bold text: Your not doing it right

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Number 1. Using acid to remove dirt, oil, and gunk is poor workmanship and a bad choice of methods.

1. It's not a bad method. It's just a method.

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Now HF will kill you. It is both a strong acid and very very toxic, and will absorb into the body on contact through your skin. H2SO4 can also be considerably more dangerous than HCl, depending on concentration.

I'm all for doing the right thing, but today's hysteria over everything being toxic is simply mis-information. In our 5 second sound bit society, we don't even bother with the details of science.

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HF (hydrofluoric acid) is actually a weak acid (pKa = 6.8X10^-4), but it can etch (ie. digest) glass. [The larger the pKa value, the more it will ionize in water which leads to its acid strength via the formation of the hydronium ion, H3O+(aq).] Hydrofluoric acid is used as such in glass/mirror shops, although they tend to favor the active paste salts in usage. H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) is stronger than HF because it can ionize in solution to approximately 100% ions. So, each molecule of H2SO4 generates 2 molecules of hydronium ions in water. HNO3 (nitric acid) can also ionize 100%, as well as the dreaded HClO4 (perchloric acid). I do not handle perchloric acid unless I absolutely have to, as it can eat flesh to the bone (even after flushing with copious amounts of water) unless neutralized with the right base. It also forms explosive metal perchlorate salts upon contact with nearby metal surfaces. Only those who are properly trained in safely handling such materials should be using said materials in the first place....

Yes, chemicals tend to get a bad reputation in the media. One thing I teach in my chemistry classes is that there are no "bad" chemicals. It all depends on how they are being used and why. The key to the message is to not fear chemicals (as the media would like), but to respect what they can do by learning about them....

If you do not know how to handle a certain chemical, it is better to leave it to the professionals who do....

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Nuke 1, I'm certainly not a chemistry teacher but I have worked with these things daily for 38 years. To say that HF acid is weak may be misleading to those reading this. It is the most dangerous to humans of any listed here so far (nitric is close), such that even our drivers have to carry calcium gluconate to transport factory sealed drums of it. Exposure without treatment can lead to death within 24 hours or so. So perhaps "weak" as in ability to eat things but "lethal" as in human contact might be a better description? Again, not trying to split hairs here, just trying as always to keep members from getting hurt or worse.

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HF (hydrofluoric acid) is actually a weak acid (pKa = 6.8X10^-4), but it can etch (ie. digest) glass. [The larger the pKa value, the more it will ionize in water which leads to its acid strength via the formation of the hydronium ion, H3O+(aq).] Hydrofluoric acid is used as such in glass/mirror shops, although they tend to favor the active paste salts in usage. H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) is stronger than HF because it can ionize in solution to approximately 100% ions. So, each molecule of H2SO4 generates 2 molecules of hydronium ions in water. HNO3 (nitric acid) can also ionize 100%, as well as the dreaded HClO4 (perchloric acid). I do not handle perchloric acid unless I absolutely have to, as it can eat flesh to the bone (even after flushing with copious amounts of water) unless neutralized with the right base. It also forms explosive metal perchlorate salts upon contact with nearby metal surfaces. Only those who are properly trained in safely handling such materials should be using said materials in the first place....

Yes, chemicals tend to get a bad reputation in the media. One thing I teach in my chemistry classes is that there are no "bad" chemicals. It all depends on how they are being used and why. The key to the message is to not fear chemicals (as the media would like), but to respect what they can do by learning about them....

If you do not know how to handle a certain chemical, it is better to leave it to the professionals who do....

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Nuke 1, I'm certainly not a chemistry teacher but I have worked with these things daily for 38 years. To say that HF acid is weak may be misleading to those reading this. It is the most dangerous to humans of any listed here so far (nitric is close), such that even our drivers have to carry calcium gluconate to transport factory sealed drums of it. Exposure without treatment can lead to death within 24 hours or so. So perhaps "weak" as in ability to eat things but "lethal" as in human contact might be a better description? Again, not trying to split hairs here, just trying as always to keep members from getting hurt or worse.

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Now HF will kill you. It is both a strong acid and very very toxic, and will absorb into the body on contact through your skin. H2SO4 can also be considerably more dangerous than HCl, depending on concentration.

I'm all for doing the right thing, but today's hysteria over everything being toxic is simply mis-information. In our 5 second sound bit society, we don't even bother with the details of science.

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HF (hydrofluoric acid) is actually a weak acid (pKa = 6.8X10^-4), but it can etch (ie. digest) glass. [The larger the pKa value, the more it will ionize in water which leads to its acid strength via the formation of the hydronium ion, H3O+(aq).] Hydrofluoric acid is used as such in glass/mirror shops, although they tend to favor the active paste salts in usage. H2SO4 (sulfuric acid) is stronger than HF because it can ionize in solution to approximately 100% ions. So, each molecule of H2SO4 generates 2 molecules of hydronium ions in water. HNO3 (nitric acid) can also ionize 100%, as well as the dreaded HClO4 (perchloric acid). I do not handle perchloric acid unless I absolutely have to, as it can eat flesh to the bone (even after flushing with copious amounts of water) unless neutralized with the right base. It also forms explosive metal perchlorate salts upon contact with nearby metal surfaces. Only those who are properly trained in safely handling such materials should be using said materials in the first place....

Yes, chemicals tend to get a bad reputation in the media. One thing I teach in my chemistry classes is that there are no "bad" chemicals. It all depends on how they are being used and why. The key to the message is to not fear chemicals (as the media would like), but to respect what they can do by learning about them....

If you do not know how to handle a certain chemical, it is better to leave it to the professionals who do....

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Nuke 1, I'm certainly not a chemistry teacher but I have worked with these things daily for 38 years. To say that HF acid is weak may be misleading to those reading this. It is the most dangerous to humans of any listed here so far (nitric is close), such that even our drivers have to carry calcium gluconate to transport factory sealed drums of it. Exposure without treatment can lead to death within 24 hours or so. So perhaps "weak" as in ability to eat things but "lethal" as in human contact might be a better description? Again, not trying to split hairs here, just trying as always to keep members from getting hurt or worse.

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It's so much easier to use electrolysis.

Have a battery charger?
Have a piece of scrap metal?

Grab a tub and some washing soda. Plug it in and make it work.

Just don't use stainless steel as an anode.

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