Question for you guys running Fast Ratio Pitman Arms
#1661990
08/21/14 03:41 PM
08/21/14 03:41 PM
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Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
CUDAJAS
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I am running a P-S-T fast ratio pitman and idler arms on my 74 Cuda...just recently switched over to power steering.
The Pitman arm seems to be half a spline off. If you center the steering wheel and attach the pitman arm to the box, the wheels are not centered. In order to point the wheels straight, the steering wheel needs to be turned 30 degrees one way or the other.
The alignment was done last year with the manual steering and I have not touched it. At that time the steering wheel was straight and the wheels pointed straight.
With the manual steering, the tie rods were very close to equal length.
In order to get the wheels to point straight with the power box, the tie rods would need to be unequal lengths.
Anyone else have this problem. Is there a problem having unequal length tie rods??
Thanks,
Jason
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Re: Question for you guys running Fast Ratio Pitman Arms
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1661992
08/21/14 06:22 PM
08/21/14 06:22 PM
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Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Does the pst pitman have index splines on it?
I believe the firm feel pitman's do not have index splines. So you can rotate the pitman relative to the box/steering wheel.
No master splines on the PST pitman arm.
I tried rotating the arm one spline in the other direction and the steering wheel is off the other way about the same amount.
The only way to center the wheel appears to be to adjust the tie rods different lengths.
The steering column and steering coupler are all installed correctly.
Jason
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Re: Question for you guys running Fast Ratio Pitman Arms
[Re: CUDAJAS]
#1661993
08/21/14 08:34 PM
08/21/14 08:34 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
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Quote:
Quote:
Does the pst pitman have index splines on it?
I believe the firm feel pitman's do not have index splines. So you can rotate the pitman relative to the box/steering wheel.
No master splines on the PST pitman arm.
I tried rotating the arm one spline in the other direction and the steering wheel is off the other way about the same amount.
The only way to center the wheel appears to be to adjust the tie rods different lengths.
The steering column and steering coupler are all installed correctly.
Jason
Adjust at steering shaft coupler just above steering box to center steering wheel, but then steering box will not be at top center,,,it's a bit more complicated then appears at first blush. You may/will likely find full lock to lock left to right may have differing wheel turn counts.
I am current living with almost same situation on my E Body since switching out Firm Feel for Borgeson box using Bergman coupler.
I ended up with my excellent front end alignment guy, Borgeson and Bergman all pointing fingers at each other. My steering wheel is straight,,,I adjusted at coupler,,, toe in is correct but tie rods are differing lengths and I know that Borgeson box is off several degrees from top center.
I have tried to have both Borgeson and Bergman speak with my alignment guy,, but they so far have refused to.. I do have total confidence in my front end tech. I spent some 350 dollars with him to do a 100 dollar alignment and yet we both know that steering box/tie rod geometry is not properly dialed in. Box not top center and differing tie rod lengths to achieve proper toe and differing lock to lock counts. All of this was ok on the Firm Feel box.
I will be posting my own thread on this one day in the steering section to get opinions from some of the heavy hitters there on how to tackle this.
Right now my best guess without much evidence is that there is a Pitman arm difference that neither Borgeson or Bergman are prepared to talk to me about. Again a guess on my part at this point.
I am admittedly a rookie on front ends,,,hence the use of 3 professional firms, but yet to no success in making it right. Front end tech says there is nothing that he can do at this point,,,I have suggested if pitman arm was bent at a certain angle or was not key splined all could be well. This he agrees with,,he says find that arm.
Car has never been wrecked or damaged. K member is perfect. Suspension parts are from Just Suspension company.
Last edited by Sxrxrnr; 08/21/14 09:15 PM.
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Re: Question for you guys running Fast Ratio Pitman Arms
[Re: Rick_Ehrenberg]
#1661996
08/23/14 11:06 AM
08/23/14 11:06 AM
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Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
...just want to remind everybody that with a worm/roller steering box, you must be on the gearset's "high spot" (point of max. tuning torque) when the wheels are dead ahead. This can easily be felt with the pitman disconnected (either end). Screw this up and there will be lots of slop/play, no matter what the "alignment guy" does.
Rick
yep, that is what I am trying to accomplish...get the steering box / steering wheel centered and the wheels pointing straight ahead.
Right now, it looks like unequal length tie rods (I think there is enough adjustment in the tie rods), or switch back to the factory pitman arm.
I am leaning towards the later. Unfortunately I just installed an early box..so need the expensive pitman arm.
Jason
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Re: Question for you guys running Fast Ratio Pitman Arms
[Re: Rick_Ehrenberg]
#1661997
08/25/14 10:28 PM
08/25/14 10:28 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jul 2013
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Quote:
...just want to remind everybody that with a worm/roller steering box, you must be on the gearset's "high spot" (point of max. tuning torque) when the wheels are dead ahead. This can easily be felt with the pitman disconnected (either end). Screw this up and there will be lots of slop/play, no matter what the "alignment guy" does.
Rick
My concern exactly with my recently installed Borgeson box. Have yet made no progress with them as to a solution why their box will not clock correctly on our Challenger. At Goodguys this weekend a couple of techs that are employed by a well respected company that uses their boxes often, suggested that they put my together incorrectly when it was rebuilt by them. That may be off by one tooth on worm gear internally. When I speak to Borgeson, they say no way, but have no idea as to what the problem might otherwise be.
I've already spent half the cost of the box(enough to buy a new Firm Feel) with my alignment tech troubleshooting this box. He is a very good tech.
However almost no play in the wheel, car drives well, ,, but as noted in earlier post, tie rods are unequal length and steering shaft is off,,,should be clocked at 9 am as recommended by Bergman(supplied me the box and adapter/coupler) but must be clocked at 11 am in order to obtain proper toe,,,which then places it off top center and mal-adjusted tie rod lengths.
Last edited by Sxrxrnr; 08/25/14 11:29 PM.
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Re: Question for you guys running Fast Ratio Pitman Arms
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1661999
08/26/14 07:41 AM
08/26/14 07:41 AM
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Joined: Jul 2013
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Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
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Just now finding this link, I will create a new thread on the suspension section of the forum. This describes perfectly what I am experiencing. In numerous call both to Borgeson and Bergman where I had suggested this possibility of an output mismatch of the spline of the a Borgeson to my pitman, they denied that this could be the cause of my problem. http://www.chevytalk.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/311422/A good read.
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Re: Question for you guys running Fast Ratio Pitman Arms
[Re: Ron_M]
#1662001
08/26/14 11:40 PM
08/26/14 11:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,072
Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
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Ok, so it looks like I have two options here:
1 - adjust the tie rods as close as I can to set the toe, and center the steering wheel. This means I am forced to live with unequal length tie rods.
2 - I can file a new master spline in the input shaft on the steering box. This would allow me to rotate the steering wheel so it is straight at 12 o'clock, and have the wheels straight. The toe should be close, and the tie rods should be very close to equal.
EDIT - I guess option 1 would get the steering box on center with the wheels centered.
Option 2, the steering wheel would be centered, but the steering box would be off center.
Jason
Last edited by CUDAJAS; 08/27/14 11:35 AM.
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Re: Question for you guys running Fast Ratio Pitman Arms
[Re: Fab64]
#1662003
08/27/14 11:31 AM
08/27/14 11:31 AM
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Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
So, it sounds like you're happy with the alignment and tie rods, etc., but just don't like the fact that the steering wheel is not centered, correct? How about pulling the steering wheel off, and re-positioning it on the shaft?
The crush can (and steering wheel) has a master spline, so it can only go on one way.
If you re-splined the crush can to center the steering wheel, the steering box would not be centered. Which I am told in a problem.
Jason
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Re: Question for you guys running Fast Ratio Pitman Arms
[Re: CUDAJAS]
#1662004
08/28/14 08:34 PM
08/28/14 08:34 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,272
Northern Calyfornua
Sxrxrnr
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Joined: Jul 2013
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Northern Calyfornua
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Quote:
Quote:
Does the pst pitman have index splines on it?
I believe the firm feel pitman's do not have index splines. So you can rotate the pitman relative to the box/steering wheel.
No master splines on the PST pitman arm.
I tried rotating the arm one spline in the other direction and the steering wheel is off the other way about the same amount.
The only way to center the wheel appears to be to adjust the tie rods different lengths.
The steering column and steering coupler are all installed correctly.
Jason
I went on PST's website seeking a non-master splined pitman. Photo on website shows that their Pitman is splined. I called them, they pulled one from warehouse and said was splined. I am assuming that if I should find one not master splined would resolve my Borgeson steering box issue whereas currently I am unable to set correct toe in with box on top center, tie rods of equal length, steering box clocked correctly, wheels in full straight ahead position and same number of turns left to right turning radius.
http://www.p-s-t.com/s.nl/it.A/id.2315/.f?sc=12
Conversation with Firm Feel, there's too is Master Splined.
Looks like I either replace my Borgeson by purchasing another and sending in faulty one for hopeful credit or find a way to machine out master splines on my new pitman arm so I can off-set it a notch or two.
My front end tech strongly prefers the replacement route.
Does the pain with faulty and/or defective products ever cease! Perhaps if all vendors were responsible to pay the labor to correct their screw ups,,,,maybe they would return production back to the USA instead of to the cheapest bidder.
Most of us would happily pay a higher price to be assured that do-overs did not consume half your restoration time or budgets.
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Re: Question for you guys running Fast Ratio Pitman Arms
[Re: Sxrxrnr]
#1662005
08/28/14 11:29 PM
08/28/14 11:29 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,072
Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
CUDAJAS
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top fuel
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,072
Cambridge, Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Does the pst pitman have index splines on it?
I believe the firm feel pitman's do not have index splines. So you can rotate the pitman relative to the box/steering wheel.
No master splines on the PST pitman arm.
I tried rotating the arm one spline in the other direction and the steering wheel is off the other way about the same amount.
The only way to center the wheel appears to be to adjust the tie rods different lengths.
The steering column and steering coupler are all installed correctly.
Jason
I went on PST's website seeking a non-master splined pitman. Photo on website shows that their Pitman is splined. I called them, they pulled one from warehouse and said was splined. I am assuming that if I should find one not master splined would resolve my Borgeson steering box issue whereas currently I am unable to set correct toe in with box on top center, tie rods of equal length, steering box clocked correctly, wheels in full straight ahead position and same number of turns left to right turning radius.
http://www.p-s-t.com/s.nl/it.A/id.2315/.f?sc=12
Conversation with Firm Feel, there's too is Master Splined.
Looks like I either replace my Borgeson by purchasing another and sending in faulty one for hopeful credit or find a way to machine out master splines on my new pitman arm so I can off-set it a notch or two.
My front end tech strongly prefers the replacement route.
Does the pain with faulty and/or defective products ever cease! Perhaps if all vendors were responsible to pay the labor to correct their screw ups,,,,maybe they would return production back to the USA instead of to the cheapest bidder.
Most of us would happily pay a higher price to be assured that do-overs did not consume half your restoration time or budgets.
Hmm, interesting, the picture sure shows the PST arm master spline. The Fast Ratio one I have, 2 years old or so, does not have a master spline.
Jason
Last edited by CUDAJAS; 08/29/14 12:28 AM.
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