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Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
#1649243
07/21/14 12:44 PM
07/21/14 12:44 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
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I am having an issue with oil leaking from my valve covers. It is a 10.5:1 solid roller street/strip small block mopar. I was originally running a PCV from the driver side valve cover to the carb, and a header pan evac setup from the passenger side vc to the header (passenger vc has hole in the back of the cover, driver side in the front, both are baffled). I noticed after making a pass once the car was sitting parked trying to cool down, the baffle for the pan evac had pushed itself up and oil was leaking down slowly from the valve cover hole down on to the headers- the breather had pushed up during the pass, and oil only started seeping after the car was shut off. I cleaned it up and checked for oil pushing past anywhere else, but I found nothing.
I thought maybe the PCV was not helping, so I put a moroso pan evac breather in on the driver side venting to the air, and then had the same issue there after a pass, although not as bad. This resulted in the exhaust huffing out blue smoke as the oil was now going through the pan evac on the one side and burning oil out the exhaust.
My last attempt to fix the problem resulted in me re-installing the pcv since I never had oil seep from it, and removing the hose from breather for the pan evac (although the hose still did suck air it felt with the car running and hand over the hose). I noticed that with both breathers pushed all the way in, they bottomed out on the baffles in the vc- could this be a problem? I thought it might be, so I did not push the breather in as far. This seemed to help for a couple of passes as I had no oil seeping anywhere, but at the end of the day after the car had sat for a while it had seeped some from the now open pan evac breather.
I know I am building excessive crankcase pressure it seems. All of these passes were on the motor, but my rings are gapped for nitrous (Total Seals). These rings were in the motor last year, and had sealed as I had no consumption issues and I was running the one side pan evac other side pcv setup like I started with this year, but the motor was taken apart and the rings re-used (lots of cross hatch on the cylinders still) this year. Is this the product of poor ring seal? Is it because my breather base is touching the baffle? Do I need a vacuum pump or a catch can setup instead. This is a street motor as well, and I noticed a small amount of oil consumption and smoke from the exhaust on only one occasion in particular while out around town last weekend, and now I know where it is coming from. I did a compression test, and all the cylinders were even within 5psi of eachother. I have 70 psi oil pressure cold at idle, gets down to 18 at idle HOT- standard volume pump, .0025 on the rods, .003 on the mains, Mobil 1 15W50 synthetic oil, pressure WOT down track is 60psi
What is my issue? I have been told I will just kill a vacuum pump with my oil consumption and don't need it with standard tension oil rings, and that a catch can won't do anything to help. I am running a 3" x pipe exhaust with bullet mufflers and know the pan evac can work improperly with an exhaust, which is why I pulled the hose, but although that stopped oil going into the exhaust, it is not helping the crankcase pressure issue. HELP
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: mshred]
#1649248
07/21/14 05:07 PM
07/21/14 05:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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First, what ever you push in to the valve covers can't be touching the baffles. Gotta correct that first. Second, if you are racing with a full exhaust ( like you street drive it), the exhaust evac system won't work. Any back pressure on the evac tubes will close off the valves and shut the system off. If you are running a pcv, the crankcase ( other valve cover ) has to be vented to the atmosphere. Having a pcv on one valve cover and an exhaust evac on the other won't work as there will be no vent to the atmosphere that way. Keep in mind all these scenerios can change a little bit based on exhaust back pressure and how much engine blow-by you have. Example: When I test on the street, I run a very minimal back pressure exhaust system. With my exhaust evac system hooked up ( both sides ) I can still pull a small amount of vacuum at idle and up to about 2K ( around 3" of water ). Somewhere around 2500rpm the exhaust back pressure is enough to close off the valves and the crankcase goes to pressure. If I wind it up, it will be enough pressure to blow out a breather so the crankcase can vent. So, if you are running a full exhaust ( quiet enough to be legal ), exhaust evacs won't work. They will work great if you run open headers at the track. If you don't want to play switcharu between the street and the track, just run 2 breathers and vent them to the atmosphere - after you fix the breather to baffle problem. Be prepared to wipe down your fire wall on a regular interval.  
Fastest 300
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: mshred]
#1649249
07/21/14 05:14 PM
07/21/14 05:14 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Are you running open headers or with a exhaust system.. if running a exhaust system take the evacs out(both sides) and run open breathers or 1 breather and a PCV Also try blowing thru the breather to see if you can.. I have a pair of breathers on my 416 and I couldnt blow thru them and had to pull some of the material out of them.. you should be able to blow thru them easy and blow thru them from the engine side(the way the air would be going)
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: mshred]
#1649250
07/21/14 05:17 PM
07/21/14 05:17 PM
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 118
Ms.
Dartwizer
member
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member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 118
Ms.
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I had the problem also ,found the check valves we're stop up with rust.I pulled all that out,and use two breathers on each side for now.will go to a vacuum pump in the future.Side note I run alcohol and condensation was ending up in the check valves,,,,,,,,
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: Crizila]
#1649251
07/21/14 05:41 PM
07/21/14 05:41 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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My car is a race only application, but one of the things you can do is; If you are driving it on the street with an exhaust evac system, disconnect the hoses at the evac valves and let them vent under the car. It will keep the engine compartment much cleaner. Then when you go to the track, pull the exhaust system and hook the hoses back up. When I am testing on the street with mufflers hooked up, I usually pull one hose so the crankcase can vent at higher RPM's. Pic is of home made water monometer I used for evac / crankcase pressure testing.
Fastest 300
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: Dartwizer]
#1649252
07/21/14 05:45 PM
07/21/14 05:45 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Quote:
I had the problem also ,found the check valves we're stop up with rust.I pulled all that out,and use two breathers on each side for now.will go to a vacuum pump in the future.Side note I run alcohol and condensation was ending up in the check valves,,,,,,,,
Check valves should be a maintenance item. Once a year you replace them.
Fastest 300
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: rt66jim]
#1649253
07/21/14 07:22 PM
07/21/14 07:22 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
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Quote:
I would bet that breather has foam inside instead of wire mesh. It will act as a restriction on the system. I would remove the foam. JMO
The breathers have a wire mesh on the inside of them...one of the first things I did was look in there to check for a restriction, there is absolutely NONE
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: Crizila]
#1649254
07/21/14 07:26 PM
07/21/14 07:26 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
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Quote:
First, what ever you push in to the valve covers can't be touching the baffles. Gotta correct that first. Second, if you are racing with a full exhaust ( like you street drive it), the exhaust evac system won't work. Any back pressure on the evac tubes will close off the valves and shut the system off. If you are running a pcv, the crankcase ( other valve cover ) has to be vented to the atmosphere. Having a pcv on one valve cover and an exhaust evac on the other won't work as there will be no vent to the atmosphere that way. Keep in mind all these scenerios can change a little bit based on exhaust back pressure and how much engine blow-by you have. Example: When I test on the street, I run a very minimal back pressure exhaust system. With my exhaust evac system hooked up ( both sides ) I can still pull a small amount of vacuum at idle and up to about 2K ( around 3" of water ). Somewhere around 2500rpm the exhaust back pressure is enough to close off the valves and the crankcase goes to pressure. If I wind it up, it will be enough pressure to blow out a breather so the crankcase can vent. So, if you are running a full exhaust ( quiet enough to be legal ), exhaust evacs won't work. They will work great if you run open headers at the track. If you don't want to play switcharu between the street and the track, just run 2 breathers and vent them to the atmosphere - after you fix the breather to baffle problem. Be prepared to wipe down your fire wall on a regular interval.
I agree with you about the breathers touching the valve cover baffles not being right....Not sure if I should just cut the breather nipple that goes in to the valve cover, or modify the valve cover baffles in some fashion.
I don't think my issue was the valve closing from backpressure- if it was, how was oil getting past the check valve and burning out the passenger side tail pipe where I had the evac tube? Also, my evac hose had quite a lot of oil in it.
I figured that with the pcv hooked up that the other breather going to the evac would be like venting to the atmosphere...I guess I was wrong lol...and when I put a breather in the driver side valve cover, I have the same issue of seeping just not as bad as the passenger side.
I run a full exhaust at the track as I do on the street, with bullet mufflers, and I plan to continue to run it that way as my class requires mufflers.
Thanks for the insight and suggestions so far! I will try to modify my breathers first and see what happens.
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1649255
07/21/14 07:27 PM
07/21/14 07:27 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
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Quote:
Are you running open headers or with a exhaust system..
if running a exhaust system take the evacs out(both
sides) and run open breathers or 1 breather and a PCV
Also try blowing thru the breather to see if you can..
I have a pair of breathers on my 416 and I couldnt
blow thru them and had to pull some of the material
out of them.. you should be able to blow thru them easy
and blow thru them from the engine side(the way the
air would be going)
Running a full exhaust Mike....So you are saying ditch the evac style/mopar style breathers and get an open breather system? I will try blowing through my current ones and see what happens.
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: Dartwizer]
#1649256
07/21/14 07:29 PM
07/21/14 07:29 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
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Quote:
I had the problem also ,found the check valves we're stop up with rust.I pulled all that out,and use two breathers on each side for now.will go to a vacuum pump in the future.Side note I run alcohol and condensation was ending up in the check valves,,,,,,,,
Your breathers were doing the same thing? Pushing out and oil seeping past afterwards?
I doubt it is my check valves, they are only a few months old at best. Are you using the Mopar style breathers like what comes in an pan evac kit, or open air filter style breathers?
Where is the best place to measure vacuum on the engine? I have a strange, unlucky feeling that I am going to need to use a vacuum pump to cure this, but I will try these cheaper fixes first to see what happens.
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: mshred]
#1649257
07/21/14 08:18 PM
07/21/14 08:18 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
I had the problem also ,found the check valves we're stop up with rust.I pulled all that out,and use two breathers on each side for now.will go to a vacuum pump in the future.Side note I run alcohol and condensation was ending up in the check valves,,,,,,,,
Your breathers were doing the same thing? Pushing out and oil seeping past afterwards?
I doubt it is my check valves, they are only a few months old at best. Are you using the Mopar style breathers like what comes in an pan evac kit, or open air filter style breathers?
Where is the best place to measure vacuum on the engine? I have a strange, unlucky feeling that I am going to need to use a vacuum pump to cure this, but I will try these cheaper fixes first to see what happens.
You shouldnt need a vac pump.. run at least 1 breather
and the PCV and fix the issue with the baffle(where
its contacting the breather.. dont use the evac with
muffs.. if you knew for fact that they are less than
about 3"HG(merc) then you could but dont bother using
them... I've been running just the 2 breathers and
baffles with zero oil coming out of them
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1649258
07/21/14 09:08 PM
07/21/14 09:08 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,267
North, Alabama
D-50
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,267
North, Alabama
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A couple of years ago when I made a pass I was getting oil leaking out of my breathers and getting on my headers. I drilled a hole in the front of my passenger side mopar performance valve cover and ran a hose to a catch can and put a moroso header evac in the header on that side and I never had the problem again. The driver side has a hose ran down and just open to air. I also run Bullet mufflers, I have never raced anything with open headers I do not like all the noise. I think mine is way to loud with the Bullet mufflers on it now.
1.33 60 ft,6.21 at 110.59 in the 1/8, pump gas small block,2950lbs,drag radials,mufflers and driven to track ...
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: mshred]
#1649259
07/21/14 09:16 PM
07/21/14 09:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
Crizila
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,506
Az
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Quote:
Quote:
First, what ever you push in to the valve covers can't be touching the baffles. Gotta correct that first. Second, if you are racing with a full exhaust ( like you street drive it), the exhaust evac system won't work. Any back pressure on the evac tubes will close off the valves and shut the system off. If you are running a pcv, the crankcase ( other valve cover ) has to be vented to the atmosphere. Having a pcv on one valve cover and an exhaust evac on the other won't work as there will be no vent to the atmosphere that way. Keep in mind all these scenerios can change a little bit based on exhaust back pressure and how much engine blow-by you have. Example: When I test on the street, I run a very minimal back pressure exhaust system. With my exhaust evac system hooked up ( both sides ) I can still pull a small amount of vacuum at idle and up to about 2K ( around 3" of water ). Somewhere around 2500rpm the exhaust back pressure is enough to close off the valves and the crankcase goes to pressure. If I wind it up, it will be enough pressure to blow out a breather so the crankcase can vent. So, if you are running a full exhaust ( quiet enough to be legal ), exhaust evacs won't work. They will work great if you run open headers at the track. If you don't want to play switcharu between the street and the track, just run 2 breathers and vent them to the atmosphere - after you fix the breather to baffle problem. Be prepared to wipe down your fire wall on a regular interval.
I agree with you about the breathers touching the valve cover baffles not being right....Not sure if I should just cut the breather nipple that goes in to the valve cover, or modify the valve cover baffles in some fashion.
I don't think my issue was the valve closing from backpressure- if it was, how was oil getting past the check valve and burning out the passenger side tail pipe where I had the evac tube? Also, my evac hose had quite a lot of oil in it.
I figured that with the pcv hooked up that the other breather going to the evac would be like venting to the atmosphere...I guess I was wrong lol...and when I put a breather in the driver side valve cover, I have the same issue of seeping just not as bad as the passenger side.
I run a full exhaust at the track as I do on the street, with bullet mufflers, and I plan to continue to run it that way as my class requires mufflers.
Thanks for the insight and suggestions so far! I will try to modify my breathers first and see what happens.
Yes, you can cut back the breather nipples 1/8" or there abouts and still have enough "bump" to hold them in. I did that for clearance on my baffles. If you are running a full exhaust, dump the exhaust evac system. It aint gonna work. It sounds like you have excessive blow-by. I run lots of ring clearance on my blown application, but don't have oil in my exhaust evac hoses? It might be time to do a compression test and leak down test to get an idea of engine health. How do the plugs look? Got oil consumption issues? If you are not running a locking dip stick, does it stay in the tube when you make a run. All signs of excessive blow-by. You could hook up your pcv system and, at idle, you should have a slight vacuum ( negative pressure ) in the crankcase. If it's positive, you got excessive blow-by.
Fastest 300
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: D-50]
#1649260
07/22/14 01:21 AM
07/22/14 01:21 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
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Quote:
A couple of years ago when I made a pass I was getting oil leaking out of my breathers and getting on my headers. I drilled a hole in the front of my passenger side mopar performance valve cover and ran a hose to a catch can and put a moroso header evac in the header on that side and I never had the problem again. The driver side has a hose ran down and just open to air. I also run Bullet mufflers, I have never raced anything with open headers I do not like all the noise. I think mine is way to loud with the Bullet mufflers on it now.
Was the leak coming from the base of the breathers, like the grommet area?
I was thinking of putting caps where my breathers are and having a bung welded to the front of each valve cover with line going to a puke tank. Do you have a baffle behind the bungs on yours?
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Re: Pushing breathers out, oil seeping past
[Re: Crizila]
#1649261
07/22/14 01:29 AM
07/22/14 01:29 AM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
mshred
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
First, what ever you push in to the valve covers can't be touching the baffles. Gotta correct that first. Second, if you are racing with a full exhaust ( like you street drive it), the exhaust evac system won't work. Any back pressure on the evac tubes will close off the valves and shut the system off. If you are running a pcv, the crankcase ( other valve cover ) has to be vented to the atmosphere. Having a pcv on one valve cover and an exhaust evac on the other won't work as there will be no vent to the atmosphere that way. Keep in mind all these scenerios can change a little bit based on exhaust back pressure and how much engine blow-by you have. Example: When I test on the street, I run a very minimal back pressure exhaust system. With my exhaust evac system hooked up ( both sides ) I can still pull a small amount of vacuum at idle and up to about 2K ( around 3" of water ). Somewhere around 2500rpm the exhaust back pressure is enough to close off the valves and the crankcase goes to pressure. If I wind it up, it will be enough pressure to blow out a breather so the crankcase can vent. So, if you are running a full exhaust ( quiet enough to be legal ), exhaust evacs won't work. They will work great if you run open headers at the track. If you don't want to play switcharu between the street and the track, just run 2 breathers and vent them to the atmosphere - after you fix the breather to baffle problem. Be prepared to wipe down your fire wall on a regular interval.
I agree with you about the breathers touching the valve cover baffles not being right....Not sure if I should just cut the breather nipple that goes in to the valve cover, or modify the valve cover baffles in some fashion.
I don't think my issue was the valve closing from backpressure- if it was, how was oil getting past the check valve and burning out the passenger side tail pipe where I had the evac tube? Also, my evac hose had quite a lot of oil in it.
I figured that with the pcv hooked up that the other breather going to the evac would be like venting to the atmosphere...I guess I was wrong lol...and when I put a breather in the driver side valve cover, I have the same issue of seeping just not as bad as the passenger side.
I run a full exhaust at the track as I do on the street, with bullet mufflers, and I plan to continue to run it that way as my class requires mufflers.
Thanks for the insight and suggestions so far! I will try to modify my breathers first and see what happens.
Yes, you can cut back the breather nipples 1/8" or there abouts and still have enough "bump" to hold them in. I did that for clearance on my baffles. If you are running a full exhaust, dump the exhaust evac system. It aint gonna work. It sounds like you have excessive blow-by. I run lots of ring clearance on my blown application, but don't have oil in my exhaust evac hoses? It might be time to do a compression test and leak down test to get an idea of engine health. How do the plugs look? Got oil consumption issues? If you are not running a locking dip stick, does it stay in the tube when you make a run. All signs of excessive blow-by. You could hook up your pcv system and, at idle, you should have a slight vacuum ( negative pressure ) in the crankcase. If it's positive, you got excessive blow-by.
I tried "shorter" breathers tonight, and there was a difference. I think they are still pretty close to touching, but they fit snugger then my Moroso breathers (they are the breathers that came with my Summit pan evac kit I ran with last years headers). I am going to chop some off with a saw tomorrow and see if it helps. But what I did notice is that it is now just lightly wet on the valve cover, not wet enough to drip down on to the header, after I shut the car off from a drive and pop the hood.
I honestly think my problem with the oil in the evac is from the evac possibly not working properly with the exhaust. It was only with the evac that the breather was actually being pushed up, indicating to me that it must have been creating positive pressure in the crankcase. Maybe there was some sort of reversion that caused oil to build up some in the line and burn out the exhaust. I say it was wet with oil, but I don't know how much oil is needed to burn out the exhaust for smoke- there was no oil consumption from it at the track this weekend on the one pass that it happened. The oil dipstick does not get pushed out either, and it is not a locking one.
I did a compression test, all cylinders are within 5psi of eachother. Thinking of doing a leakdown, but I don't think my rings are bad. My plugs do not have oil on them either. I think ditching the pan evac was a step in the right direction....maybe a puke tank next, and a leakdown test if I can get one...Although a friend made a good point to me- if the compression test checked out good and the cylinders were all almost dead nuts even, a leakdown isn't going to show a leak unless they are ALL leaking (and it would be funny if they were all leaking the same).
Maybe I should take a picture of the valve covers dry and then wet after driving- I have a friend who had the same problem with a boosted motor, and he INSISTS I am worrying too much about it. His problem went almost entirely away after ditching the pan evac that he was running with his full exhaust, and now he just runs a catch can with a nipple threaded into the valve cover and has been good since.
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