Oil Pan For race small Block With Stock Front End
#1638914
06/26/14 11:10 PM
06/26/14 11:10 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 358 western PA
Sb Valiant
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 358
western PA
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I have a stock front end to work with on my 1963 Plymouth Valiant and that rules out pretty much any dry sump system. I like the 7 qt Milodon pan that's shallow and is kicked out. The Moroso 8 qt is ok and pretty much a lot of the other pans don't fit or aren't enough. I am thinking about making my own pan and I can build something good that will fit my front end. I want to have something pretty trick for a wet sump pan. I plan on turning some where between 7400-7700 rpm round figure. Has anyone ever made or used a dragster style type pan? I like the box shaped design and what I could do is I could cut it out and run the steering linkage right through it like on the Milodon SS pans. I know it's alot of effort for a wet sump but I have to work with my K member front end for now until I can get rid of that junk.. I would like some opinions please. Thanks Moparts
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Re: Oil Pan For race small Block With Stock Front End
[Re: B3422W5]
#1638922
06/27/14 01:29 AM
06/27/14 01:29 AM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501 Gainesville,FL
goldmember
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
Gainesville,FL
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Quote:
Quote:
Use the milodon SS pan if you can't fabricate something better. You could start with a truck pan and make one but unless you can do it yourself you could save the time and get a good working pan and move on. The dragster pan is great if you can make it fit.
The smallblock I am fixing to install has that Superstock pan. I know it's a good piece, just a little worried about ground clearance.
Yep,for a street car I'd think that may be a concern.
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Re: Oil Pan For race small Block With Stock Front End
[Re: Sb Valiant]
#1638924
06/27/14 02:46 AM
06/27/14 02:46 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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I build most of my SB pans... if you start with a stock pan and cut and weld its much easier... wings on them for volume is pretty easy then install doors to keep the oil at the pick up... I had a dragster pan on my R block but that was a dry sump but I modified that pan also
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Re: Oil Pan For race small Block With Stock Front End
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1638925
06/27/14 03:14 AM
06/27/14 03:14 AM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 358 western PA
Sb Valiant
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 358
western PA
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there is a lot more hardware spinning in the crankcase at thousands of revolutions per minute. The counterweights, crank pins, connecting rods, and pistons create a hurricane that whips the oil in a wet-sump engine into an aerated froth like a milkshake in a blender. As the rotating assembly spins in this dense fog of oil and air, the resulting windage losses sap horsepower.
This maelstrom in the crankcase can also blow the oil away from the oil pump pickup in a wet-sump engine. Even if the oil pressure gauge has a steady reading, the reality is that the pump isn’t supplying solid oil. It’s delivering intermittent oiling as pockets of air are pumped through the system; the gauge only registers the average pressure of this aerated mixture. Engine bearings require a hydrodynamic wedge of oil molecules to prevent destructive metal-to-metal contact. When the oil is aerated, it cannot maintain this crucial cushion between highly loaded parts.
Now consider what happens inside an engine with a dry-sump oil system. Multiple scavenge stages suck the oil out of the crankcase and deliver it to a remote tank. When this oil enters the tank tangentially, the air and oil separate, leaving a solid column of liquid to feed the pressure stage. The improvement in the quality of the oil that reaches the bearings with a dry-sump system is usually apparent when you overhaul the engine. In most instances, the bearings can be reused, while the bearings in a wet-sump motor frequently show the ill effects of intermittent oiling.
Burnouts and deceleration at the end of a run are especially hard on a wet-sump engine. It’s virtually impossible to baffle the oil pan to keep the pickup submerged under 1g deceleration. With many sportsman cars now running above 200 mph, the potential for damage in the shutdown area is real. Even if the engine isn’t running under load, it still suffers incremental damage every time the oil supply is interrupted.
Racers know that crankcase vacuum is beneficial in a competition engine, and some use an auxiliary pump to produce crankcase vacuum in a wet-sump engine. Unfortunately, this vacuum fights the oil pump; you’d really like positive pressure in the crankcase to force the oil into the pickup.
We performed an experiment with transparent oil return lines from the cylinder heads to see the effects of crankcase vacuum in a wet-sump engine. When vacuum was applied, the oil in the return lines scarcely moved; when the vacuum was removed, the oil drained quickly. If the vacuum is strong enough, it simply stalls the oil.
For this reason I recommend scavenge stages pulling only from the oil pan in a dry-sump engine. Current dry-sump pumps will generate 20 to 23 inches of vacuum, so an auxiliary vacuum pump simply isn’t needed. Several manufacturers now offer excellent pumps with twisted Roots rotors at affordable prices. These pumps are much more efficient than the spur gears that were used in the past.
A dry-sump system significantly increases horsepower by reducing parasitic windage losses. With less oil in the crankcase, ring tension can also be reduced. Rings are the chief source of friction in an engine, so reducing drag with low-tension rings is a path to “free” horsepower. In an extreme example, we saw a 70-horsepower gain in an engine with a 5.500-inch stroke after switching from wet-sump to dry-sump oiling. In a 600+ cubic-inch sportsman motor, a dry-sump system is typically 30 horsepower better than a wet-sump.
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Re: Oil Pan For race small Block With Stock Front End
[Re: Sb Valiant]
#1638926
06/27/14 03:21 AM
06/27/14 03:21 AM
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501 Gainesville,FL
goldmember
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 4,501
Gainesville,FL
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Quote:
there is a lot more hardware spinning in the crankcase at thousands of revolutions per minute. The counterweights, crank pins, connecting rods, and pistons create a hurricane that whips the oil in a wet-sump engine into an aerated froth like a milkshake in a blender. As the rotating assembly spins in this dense fog of oil and air, the resulting windage losses sap horsepower.
This maelstrom in the crankcase can also blow the oil away from the oil pump pickup in a wet-sump engine. Even if the oil pressure gauge has a steady reading, the reality is that the pump isn’t supplying solid oil. It’s delivering intermittent oiling as pockets of air are pumped through the system; the gauge only registers the average pressure of this aerated mixture. Engine bearings require a hydrodynamic wedge of oil molecules to prevent destructive metal-to-metal contact. When the oil is aerated, it cannot maintain this crucial cushion between highly loaded parts.
Now consider what happens inside an engine with a dry-sump oil system. Multiple scavenge stages suck the oil out of the crankcase and deliver it to a remote tank. When this oil enters the tank tangentially, the air and oil separate, leaving a solid column of liquid to feed the pressure stage. The improvement in the quality of the oil that reaches the bearings with a dry-sump system is usually apparent when you overhaul the engine. In most instances, the bearings can be reused, while the bearings in a wet-sump motor frequently show the ill effects of intermittent oiling.
Burnouts and deceleration at the end of a run are especially hard on a wet-sump engine. It’s virtually impossible to baffle the oil pan to keep the pickup submerged under 1g deceleration. With many sportsman cars now running above 200 mph, the potential for damage in the shutdown area is real. Even if the engine isn’t running under load, it still suffers incremental damage every time the oil supply is interrupted.
Racers know that crankcase vacuum is beneficial in a competition engine, and some use an auxiliary pump to produce crankcase vacuum in a wet-sump engine. Unfortunately, this vacuum fights the oil pump; you’d really like positive pressure in the crankcase to force the oil into the pickup.
We performed an experiment with transparent oil return lines from the cylinder heads to see the effects of crankcase vacuum in a wet-sump engine. When vacuum was applied, the oil in the return lines scarcely moved; when the vacuum was removed, the oil drained quickly. If the vacuum is strong enough, it simply stalls the oil.
For this reason I recommend scavenge stages pulling only from the oil pan in a dry-sump engine. Current dry-sump pumps will generate 20 to 23 inches of vacuum, so an auxiliary vacuum pump simply isn’t needed. Several manufacturers now offer excellent pumps with twisted Roots rotors at affordable prices. These pumps are much more efficient than the spur gears that were used in the past.
A dry-sump system significantly increases horsepower by reducing parasitic windage losses. With less oil in the crankcase, ring tension can also be reduced. Rings are the chief source of friction in an engine, so reducing drag with low-tension rings is a path to “free” horsepower. In an extreme example, we saw a 70-horsepower gain in an engine with a 5.500-inch stroke after switching from wet-sump to dry-sump oiling. In a 600+ cubic-inch sportsman motor, a dry-sump system is typically 30 horsepower better than a wet-sump.
LOL no crap.
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Re: Oil Pan For race small Block With Stock Front End
[Re: Sb Valiant]
#1638927
06/27/14 03:32 AM
06/27/14 03:32 AM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 358 western PA
Sb Valiant
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 358
western PA
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I was reading up on that and I was researching about oil filters also. I had read in a Mopar Muscle magazine and seen a Amsoil motor challenge where they were building stock stroke 440's where they were aloud a .060 over bore and SR indy heads. A engine builder Jeff Dickey from J&D machine was using this big single oil filter that was atleast 2 qt capacity. His claim was that it helped keep oil away from crank but my thoughts on it is whether the filter is large or small the oil still has to go through it first. But maybe its easier on the pump because it may reduce the pressure on the feed side? Anyway with my research I understand that a wet sump pan has it's limitations. I plan on making the best pan I can for a wet sump. I will incorporate trap doors, all the baffleing I can get, windage tray screen, crank scrapers, ect. I am not a fan of the oil pumps that are offered for small block Mopars.. I think the setup is junk the way it is. I am leaning towards a external oil pump even though this setup isn't max effort and isn't a race block. It to me is just a much better and reliable setup. I don't want any problems. Last motor had ugly bearings from dry starts and I think it could of needed alittle more oil in the first place for the rpms.. Thanks for the replies fellows
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Re: Oil Pan For race small Block With Stock Front End
[Re: tubtar]
#1638929
06/27/14 08:35 AM
06/27/14 08:35 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,185 PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,185
PA.
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Matt has the wedge shaped Milidon oil pan on his stock suspension 1970 duster but we had to modify (4 pound hammer) his 1 7/8 headmen header tubes. I also had the Milidon but recently installed a new Canton small block pan on mine to gain more header clearance. It gave me the clearance BUT My oil pressure is now dipping down during a pass and it never did before. If was rock steady. I wasn't allowed to use my racepak at the no-box race last weekend so I added an extra quart of oil. I will hook up the racepak again this weekend and give more info after Friday and Saturdays race. we did have to slightly modify Matts k member some and he uses an engine plate. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ctr-15-910
1970 Duster Edelbrock headed 408 5.984@112.52 422 Indy headed small block 5.982@112.56 mph 9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Oil Pan For race small Block With Stock Front End
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1638930
06/27/14 10:59 AM
06/27/14 10:59 AM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330 Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
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Ran a rear sump moroso 360 pan with the screen removed for crank clearance. Never had any oiling issues. Turned 9k. Pushrod oiling and a good drain back system.
My w2 setup with moroso pan would push the oil up in the PS head. Engine had no valve seals and always smoked on that side on top end.
I personally think the HV pumps, I ran are not necessary. A stock massaged pump is all that's necessary if you restrick oil to the heads and have a better pan. An accusump is probably the best protrction.
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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Re: Oil Pan For race small Block With Stock Front End
[Re: Sb Valiant]
#1638932
06/27/14 07:19 PM
06/27/14 07:19 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330 Lynchburg, VA
Leon441
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,330
Lynchburg, VA
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The w2 I referred to was witha stock front suspension.
I ran an Arrinton headed combo with a milodon center sump turning 9k with a 4" crank. Later went tubular k member and rack with the 360 rear sump moroso pan with the screen and scraper removed for clearance.
No doubt the rear sump holds more oil and lower in the pan. But,had zero issues with the center sump and stock front end.
Career best 8.02 @ 169 at 3050# and 10" tires small block power.
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