|
Re: Official Joe PAPPAS Q & A Thread
[Re: StewartP]
#160709
01/05/09 12:12 PM
01/05/09 12:12 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,607
KYbywayof WV
Frito
top fuel
|
top fuel
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 1,607
KYbywayof WV
|
Quote:
thanks
Stewart, Fred, Kev, anyone, The photos of Carlton's shop show a lot of chassis and body fab but I don't notice engines being built or engine building tools or machines. Did the motors come complete from Spehar or someone else? How about the motors for Stu McDade and the Rod Shop cars.
|
|
|
Re: Official Joe PAPPAS Q & A Thread
[Re: StewartP]
#160712
01/05/09 11:29 PM
01/05/09 11:29 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 39
SLC, Utah
mgpanos
member
|
member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 39
SLC, Utah
|
Quote:
I think that Ted Spehar had a lot to do with Carlton's motors. As for the Rod Shop, I believe they did their own stuff, with input from others
StewartP
I think Stewart is right that Spehar had alot to do with Carlton's motors, at least until responsibility for the Missile program tranferred to Carlton (1973-74?). It seems like Clyde Hodges said that he and Donnie were doing their own motors in 1974 for the "Don Carlton" Dart Sport. (Hmmm, wonder if they did the small blocks, too. Joe?)
Clyde's story about Motor 37 (or was it 39) was pretty enlightening and humorous.
Mark
|
|
|
Re: Official Joe PAPPAS Q & A Thread
[Re: hemiparts]
#160714
01/06/09 10:16 PM
01/06/09 10:16 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 67
Howell, MI
Mopar Missile JP
Back To The 70s With J.P.
|
Back To The 70s With J.P.
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 67
Howell, MI
|
Everyone, I have to apologize for being a little tardy with replies over the last few days. It seems that the sticky little thing they call a job has sort of interfeered with my "fun" time. It's a bit after 9PM on Tuesday and I just got home about 45 minutes ago ( I leave for work at 5AM ) so it has been a long few days. I promise that I will get caught up over the next few days. Sorry again for the delays. Joe Pappas 
Joe Pappas
MOPAR MISSILE
|
|
|
Re: Official Joe PAPPAS Q & A Thread
[Re: Mopar Missile JP]
#160715
01/07/09 12:04 AM
01/07/09 12:04 AM
|
Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
|
Quote:
It seems that the sticky little thing they call a job has sort of interfeered with my "fun" time.
I guess I need to have "my" people call, "your" people, and explain to them that this whole job thing is getting a little bit out of hand.
They just don't understand that MOPARTS is #1 priority......geeeeze the nerve of some folks  
|
|
|
Re: Official Joe PAPPAS Q & A Thread
[Re: mgpanos]
#160716
01/08/09 10:12 PM
01/08/09 10:12 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 67
Howell, MI
Mopar Missile JP
Back To The 70s With J.P.
|
Back To The 70s With J.P.
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 67
Howell, MI
|
Quote:
Joe,
Wondering if you might add some thoughts about the development of the Hemi Pro Stock engine during your time with the Rod Shop, Mopar Missile and other programs at Chrysler, as you had a unique insider perspective . The Chrysler program resulted in some of the most innovative developments such as the crank trigger ignition, smart oil pan designs, high lift roller camshafts, etc., and common sense ideas like milling all of the un-needed weight from the cylinder block (bosses, freeze plug bump, webs, and even the thickness of the water jacket), restricting oil to the top end of the motor (less oil to the valve train means less has to get past the rotating assembly to get to the oil pan, re: reduced windage), etc. Just to get the reflective thoughts flowing, here are some questions:
1. Even with all the innovation of the Chrysler Hemi program, it seems like there was a reluctance to move from the NASCAR steel rod/heavy piston combo to an aluminum rod/light piston combo similar to the Ford 351 Cleveland, SBC and BBC and AMC. Any comments on this? Was durability the issue?
2. The dry sump oil system certainly adds weight to the front end of the car, but was probably a necessity when you are talking about super low cars such as Ken Van Cleve’s car, the Missile and even Carlton’s black B/A car. Any idea on how much horsepower was gained with the dry sump over a 7” oil pan, and was it enough to offset the added weight?
3. When did titanium valves first start being used in the Hemi’s?
Thanks!
Mark
Mark,
From my perspective, the PS Hemi development that was going on during the early 70's was a two step process. There were a lot of good engine guys out there running PS Hemi engines. Just look at what each and every team did and the success that was generated by their efforts. Absolutely, the Missile team led the way with the test program to try the new cams, piston technologies, and a ton of other innovations, but pretty much each team built their own engines utilizing the stuff that Chrysler fed them PLUS their own innovations and engine building techniques that became their signature. For instance, if Jake King, Dick Landy, Arlan Vanke, or Butch Leal felt they had a better way - then so be it and that is what they did. Sometimes, we had some bits and pieces on the car or utilized in the engine that had not quite made it out to the rest of the group and maybe that was one of the reasons we were so successful especially in the '73 PS season, but the rest of the teams would definitely be totally up to speed within the week so they too could use the same stuff if they chose to do so. What I guess I am attempting to say is - first, the Missile broke the ground development wise, and secondly - the Chrysler PS teams utilized the Missile data PLUS used their experience, skill, and techniques to further improve the engine development foundation we provided.
Now - for your questions...
1. I am probably not the best person to answer engine related questions but I do think that durability was an issue with aluminum rods. I remember when I was with Fons and the Ramchargers built a motor for us to test out in California. I am pretty sure it had aluminum rods but it broke after only a few runs. Our Missile engines used the steel rods and given the reciprocating weight of the piston / rod assembly, we had to change bearings every 10 to 12 passes. The pistons alone weighed a ton. It made for a lot of work but the reliability was alwasy there. To the best of my memory, we never broke a rod or had significant damage to a Hemi engine. Now we did tip some valves into the top of the piston ever so slightly now and then...but that was the price you pay.
2. The Missile Duster did not use a dry sump system. We used a deep oil pan with Mr. Hoover's kick outs and a swinging pickup. That was our standard. Using a dry sump was not yet on our agenda. Later, our 'A' engine program was going that direction but not our Missile deal. Also, I am not sure if Donnie used a dry sump on his B/A car or not. Oldfield may know and I will ask him. As far as hp gains from dry vs wet I honestly don't know, but I am sure the gains far offset any weight differences.
3. The question on Titanium valves is not something I actually know the answer to. I will ask Ted Spehar - he remembers all that stuff. My time was spent lashing valves - I was only in the engine room long enough to pick up more bearings and pick up or drop off engines for rebuilds...
Joe Pappas
Joe Pappas
MOPAR MISSILE
|
|
|
Re: Official Joe PAPPAS Q & A Thread
[Re: Mopar Missile JP]
#160719
01/09/09 12:46 AM
01/09/09 12:46 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,031
Raleigh N.C
hemiparts
"Missile Pilot"
|
"Missile Pilot"
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,031
Raleigh N.C
|
Joe, You have my respect I can't ride my bike to the top of the hill in front of my house  Don was awesome in his day,  can you only imagine how dominate he would have been with todays technology and factory backing  as always sir your the "Encyclopedia Joetanica" of Mopar Pro Stock ps I have been told that they run a Don Carlton Memorial race @ a track near Lenoir, Kevin and I will check into it @ Greensboro the end of the month.
|
|
|
Re: Official Joe PAPPAS Q & A Thread
[Re: hemiparts]
#160720
01/09/09 10:07 AM
01/09/09 10:07 AM
|
Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
|
Quote:
your the "Encyclopedia Joetanica" of Mopar Pro Stock
Now a question from me.
You have told a few funny stories since your arrival on Moparts.
What is the funniest Carlton story you have? What were some of his "pet peeves" ?
Fons story? Fons "pet peeves".?
|
|
|
Re: Official Joe PAPPAS Q & A Thread
[Re: Frito]
#160721
01/10/09 09:24 PM
01/10/09 09:24 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 67
Howell, MI
Mopar Missile JP
Back To The 70s With J.P.
|
Back To The 70s With J.P.
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 67
Howell, MI
|
Quote:
Quote:
thanks
Stewart, Fred, Kev, anyone, The photos of Carlton's shop show a lot of chassis and body fab but I don't notice engines being built or engine building tools or machines. Did the motors come complete from Spehar or someone else? How about the motors for Stu McDade and the Rod Shop cars.
Don's shop in Troy Michigan was strictly for the "car" work. Ted Spehar supplied all the Missile engines from his shop (Specialized Vehicles, Inc.). The two shops were about 3 miles apart. When Don, Dick, and I went to a NHRA or IHRA event, we would typically have 3 engines with us - one in the car and two fully dressed engines in the truck. We always had a good supply of horsepower from Spehar.
For Don's match race cars that were run from Hudson North Carolina, Clyde Hodges and Donnie typically built those bullets. I can't say for sure but I would not be suprised if Spehar did not lend a hand - at the very least with information. Clyde was a good engine man in is own right and I know for sure that he did most of that work himself. I know because he built a motor in my hotel room at Englishtown one year! That room smelled bad... He built the stinking thing on my bed and to protect the sheets he laid the shower curtain over the bedspread! How thoughtful... That particular motor was for the Stuart McDade PS car that Donnie owned. In the shop that Donnie built in Hudson at the end of the 1974 season, it had a nice little motor room (clean room) where Clyde could do his engine builds.
Joe Pappas
Joe Pappas
MOPAR MISSILE
|
|
|
Re: Official Joe PAPPAS Q & A Thread
[Re: mgpanos]
#160722
01/10/09 09:44 PM
01/10/09 09:44 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 67
Howell, MI
Mopar Missile JP
Back To The 70s With J.P.
|
Back To The 70s With J.P.
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 67
Howell, MI
|
Quote:
Quote:
I think that Ted Spehar had a lot to do with Carlton's motors. As for the Rod Shop, I believe they did their own stuff, with input from others
StewartP
I think Stewart is right that Spehar had alot to do with Carlton's motors, at least until responsibility for the Missile program tranferred to Carlton (1973-74?). It seems like Clyde Hodges said that he and Donnie were doing their own motors in 1974 for the "Don Carlton" Dart Sport. (Hmmm, wonder if they did the small blocks, too. Joe?)
Clyde's story about Motor 37 (or was it 39) was pretty enlightening and humorous.
Mark
Mark,
I don't think that Donnie and Clyde did much of anything with the small blocks - Teddy Spehar did those for our test program.
All engines that Ted Spehar built were numbered. Our all time best bullet was #33. I loved that engine! For some reason, that piece always ran a tick better that all the rest - and all the rest were fantastic engines. No matter how many rebuilds it went through, it always came out on top.
Somewhere in my archives, there is an old notebook that I used to keep with notes on different engines. I kept notes on stuff like valve lash, leak tests, cam changes, etc. I distinctly remember certain engine numbers like #33 (my favorite), #36, and #39. The rest of them sort of run together.
I don't remember any particular Clyde story about one of the engines so if you want to share it with me please do. If you would rather do it in private that's ok - just send me a note. Obviously, there are a NUMBER of stories I really can't tell in the open without getting OK's from those involved...
Joe Pappas
Joe Pappas
MOPAR MISSILE
|
|
|
Re: Official Joe PAPPAS Q & A Thread
[Re: Mopar Missile JP]
#160724
01/11/09 01:24 AM
01/11/09 01:24 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 39
SLC, Utah
mgpanos
member
|
member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 39
SLC, Utah
|
/quote]
Mark,
I don't remember any particular Clyde story about one of the engines so if you want to share it with me please do. If you would rather do it in private that's ok - just send me a note. Obviously, there are a NUMBER of stories I really can't tell in the open without getting OK's from those involved...
Joe Pappas
Joe,
I don't think I will offend anyone so I'll share the story with the group. Clyde was talking about the huge advantages of having direct factory involvement (as you have elaborated on in this thread), and chuckling about some of the downfalls. It seems that Donnie had a match race coming up (75-76 as I recall) and Clyde needed to get a motor together. Due to a variety of factors, all he could do is a 437 ci motor using some older ported '65 aluminum heads that were pretty rough looking, a somewhat mismatched tunnel ram, a leaky block (too much milling on the sides), and a somewhat unbalanced rotating assembly (not sure why). Well, the motor was one of those screamers and served Donnie well at subsequent match races.
The factory was wondering what Donnie and Clyde had done with this motor and asked (I had the impression from Clyde that the sponsor asking is the same as directing?) that the motor be sent to Chrysler for a dyno run and then a disassembly and analysis.
Well, when Donnie and Clyde got the motor back (and it was assembled), it would not fall off a turnip truck. It ran horrible! Clyde claimed that he took the motor apart and was surprised that the heads seemed to have been sent to Mullens for the most current porting along with the manifold, that the rotating assembly was now balanced correctly, and the sides of the block had nice aluminum plates screwed on and sealed to stop the water leaks. Someone had taken alot of time to make the "wrong" things right, and lost one of those seemingly magical combinations of parts that just "works." He really missed that motor!
Mark
|
|
|
Re: Official Joe PAPPAS Q & A Thread
[Re: Mopar Missile JP]
#160725
01/12/09 10:58 AM
01/12/09 10:58 AM
|
Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
|
Anonymous
OP
Unregistered
|
Hey Joe,
What year did you stop working for "Carlton/Missile"...Did you continue to work for the Rod Shop yrs (Colt). What was the reason for the departure (if not to nosey).
|
|
|
Re: Official Joe PAPPAS Q & A Thread
#160726
01/12/09 09:46 PM
01/12/09 09:46 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 67
Howell, MI
Mopar Missile JP
Back To The 70s With J.P.
|
Back To The 70s With J.P.
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 67
Howell, MI
|
Quote:
Quote:
your the "Encyclopedia Joetanica" of Mopar Pro Stock
Now a question from me.
You have told a few funny stories since your arrival on Moparts.
What is the funniest Carlton story you have? What were some of his "pet peeves" ?
Fons story? Fons "pet peeves".?
Kevin,
I'll start with Mike Fons. Probably the funniest story is the one that I already told about the truck going over the cliff in Breezewood PA. However, there are others - maybe not quite as funny but here goes...Fons and I were in Gainsville testing. We had been there for a week or so and had been staying at a Holiday Inn out on I-75 along with the rest of the Chrysler guys. We finished testing late in the afternoon and everyone decided to go check out and head for Detroit. Oldfield was driving the Missile truck and I had the Fons truck. Anyhow, we all went back to the motel, cleaned up, packed, loaded the truck, and then went out to eat. Donnie and Mike went together and decided to go somewhere other than where Dick and I went (I think that Donnie might have had a rental car or maybe his own car). We all decided to meet on the entrance ramp to I-75 at 10 PM. At that time Fons was to hop in with me and head for home - we would be caravaning with the Missile truck - and Donnie was to head for North Carolina. Well 10 PM came and went and no Fons / Carlton. At 11 PM Oldfield had enough and took off leaving me to wait for the prodical driver... 12 Midnight - still no Fons... Since this was the time before cell phones, I had no way to contact Mike so there I sat. Finally at 1:00 AM I had enough too and headed north - without Fons. Around 9:00 AM I stopped at a truck stop and called Mike's wife and told her that I lost Mike and asked if he had called home. Sure enough he had. I don't exactly know what story he told but he was headed to Charlotte with Donnie and was going to catch a flight home from there. I think Mike and Donnie found a bar that they couldn't tear themselves away from and forgot about the time - and the fact that I was waiting for him at the freeway entrance!!! The really good part of the story is that I pulled into Mike's driveway at 8:00 PM that evening exactly 19 hrs after leaving Gainsville. Oh, by the way - I beat Mike home by about 2 hours!!! You know, he never did tell me EXACTLY what the heck he was doing that made him late...
As for Mike's pet peeves - wow, that might be tough. Mike is pretty easygoing so to pinpoint something is hard but he would complain about noises in the truck - the wipers were too noisy, the tires were making noise going over the expansion joints in the road, that sort of stuff. That is pretty funny from a guy that thrives on loud engines, burning rubber, and burnt clutches...
My funniest Don Carlton story happened one day when back at our shop in Troy Michigan. As I recall, it was early in the morning and Don was in the office meeting with our insurance agent going over our business insurance policies. Dick and I were out in the shop doing our daily stuff but needed to unload Al Adam's Valiant hot rod from an open trailer that was parked in the shop. Since the trailer was not hooked up to a pick up or anything and the car was less motor and transmission (ie: pretty light) we decided to block the trailer wheels up, put jack stands at the rear of the trailer to keep it from rearing up and roll the Valiant off in no time flat. WELL WERE WE WRONG!!! In no time flat that Valiant rolled off the trailer AND that trailer shot forward like a round out of a 300mm canon - with the tongue of the trailer shooting straight through the office wall. What a MESS!!! Oldfield and I ran to the office door thinking that for sure we killed poor Donnie. We get to the door, look in, and see Donnie calmly sitting at his desk looking down in front of the desk at the tongue of the trailer protruding about 3 feet into the office. That trailer tongue was directly between Donnie's desk and the chair in which sat the insurance man. Donnie looked up at Oldfield and I, looked down at the trailer tongue, and then looked directly at the insurance guy and said, "Do you suppose THAT is covered?" I will never forget it - that was just how calm, cool, and collected Donnie could be. By the way, he never said a thing about that incident other than to ask if Al's car was OK. What a guy!
Now - Donnie's peeves. Again, you are asking about a guy that never complained about anything that I remember so I guess I will have to think about this one for a while - maybe Oldfield can remember something and if we come up with a good answer I will post it.
Joe Pappas
Joe Pappas
MOPAR MISSILE
|
|
|
Re: Official Joe Pappas Q & A Thread. **Joe's Da' MAN
#160728
01/13/09 09:52 PM
01/13/09 09:52 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 67
Howell, MI
Mopar Missile JP
Back To The 70s With J.P.
|
Back To The 70s With J.P.
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 67
Howell, MI
|
I just got word that Kevin Christner passed away last night. It was Kevin who put this thread together and got it up and running. Words do not express how I feel. We have lost probably one of the most enthusiastic Mopar guys that I have run across in a long time. He wanted more than anything to see his MOTOWN MISSILE run down the track vs Hemi Fred and put on a show for all his fellow Mopar friends. Godspeed Kevin, Godspeed.
Joe Pappas
Joe Pappas
MOPAR MISSILE
|
|
|
|
|
