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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: 70moparmike]
#1519524
10/22/13 01:05 PM
10/22/13 01:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
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So Cal
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Quote:
can you use the fast ratio idler and pitman arm with tti headers? 69 b/b b body? thanks
The pitman and idler should be in the same place as with a factory box. So if it worked with a factory box, it should in theory work with the Borgeson.
Caution: That would give you somewhere very roughly in the range of 10:1 to 11:1 steering ratio with the 14:1 Borgeson box. Be prepared for that.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1519526
10/22/13 11:09 PM
10/22/13 11:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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10 OR 11 TO 1 RATIO WOULD BE AWESOME!!! GO FOR IT!!! THAT'S WHAT WE WANT.. FASTEST STEERING POSSIBLE!!!
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#1519527
10/23/13 01:24 AM
10/23/13 01:24 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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What size is your steering wheel? If fast ratio arms will fit my car with a Gen III and headers I would try them at least. Right now with a 14" wheel and the Borgeson I am totally happy as I can steer and shift smoothly without loss of control. I havent found myself TOO busy at all. Autox brings a whole different set of "needs" to the table I expect.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#1519530
10/23/13 10:48 PM
10/23/13 10:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
10 OR 11 TO 1 RATIO WOULD BE AWESOME!!! GO FOR IT!!! THAT'S WHAT WE WANT.. FASTEST STEERING POSSIBLE!!!
I wondered about this - is this too much for daily driving? I have the borgeson box and both stock and fast ratio pitman and idler arms at my disposal
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: dangina]
#1519531
10/24/13 01:56 AM
10/24/13 01:56 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
10 OR 11 TO 1 RATIO WOULD BE AWESOME!!! GO FOR IT!!! THAT'S WHAT WE WANT.. FASTEST STEERING POSSIBLE!!!
I wondered about this - is this too much for daily driving? I have the borgeson box and both stock and fast ratio pitman and idler arms at my disposal
Perfect if you have a way to set toe adjustment at home. Now you can check both ratios to what YOU LIKE. Ratio is mostly driver preference within a range. In an autocross though, very quick is almost always what drivers want.
I'd accurately measure each tie rod now to the 16th/32nd of inch and count threads exposed and check toe with plate or tread edge. Then put the fast ratio stuff on. Then reset toe only with tape measures and plates/edge.
If you want to go back, go back to your tie rod measurements, thread counts, and total toe measurements.
Get a ride height measurement at current and each total toe measurement. Measure and adjust each time on same location on the floor. Marking it with some tape on the floor is handy.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1519535
10/24/13 08:08 AM
10/24/13 08:08 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
10 OR 11 TO 1 RATIO WOULD BE AWESOME!!! GO FOR IT!!! THAT'S WHAT WE WANT.. FASTEST STEERING POSSIBLE!!!
I wondered about this - is this too much for daily driving? I have the borgeson box and both stock and fast ratio pitman and idler arms at my disposal
Perfect if you have a way to set toe adjustment at home. Now you can check both ratios to what YOU LIKE. Ratio is mostly driver preference within a range. In an autocross though, very quick is almost always what drivers want.
I'd accurately measure each tie rod now to the 16th/32nd of inch and count threads exposed and check toe with plate or tread edge. Then put the fast ratio stuff on. Then reset toe only with tape measures and plates/edge.
If you want to go back, go back to your tie rod measurements, thread counts, and total toe measurements.
Get a ride height measurement at current and each total toe measurement. Measure and adjust each time on same location on the floor. Marking it with some tape on the floor is handy.
whats a good starting point when you put all of your front suspension together? I have a castor/camber guage as well as a bump steer guage. I think I understand your description on toe, Do you check toe with the weight on the ground or when the spindle is at the top (like simulating the same as you do for bump steer?
Also on you tie rods, what lengths do you start your tie rods at?
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: dickdale]
#1519536
10/24/13 09:07 AM
10/24/13 09:07 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 153
Wildwood, FL
1fastabody
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 153
Wildwood, FL
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Quote:
Quote:
How much lighter is the Borgeson over the factory unit ?
Borgeson weighs 22 pounds... Stock, anyone?
I read somewhere that they weighed 37 lbs.(stock) I don't have one to weigh but I think that is close.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: 1fastabody]
#1519538
10/24/13 12:02 PM
10/24/13 12:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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As good as the swap to a Borgeson box may sound, one thing to consider, for those who care, is that most sanctioned club rules (say, for autocross competition having guidelines of rules), will not allow this swap within certain classes/categories, or else, the swap will end up bumping your car into another class/category.. then.. you have an entire new set of rules to comply with and try to remain competitive with the balance of the class. This swap would not be legal in the SCCA Solo class/category of E/Street Prepared... and it would be questionably legal in the Street-Mod class/category... but certainly OK in the C/Prepared all-out race class/category. Another club that I'm becoming active in, for hi-speed road-course autocross events/championship series (www.mcscc.org) doesn't allow this type of swap in the class that I plan to run. In other words, as I've always advised, be ready to accept the consequences. I believe this is a great weight reducer as its prime advantage, and installing the box with the fast-ratio arms would make a huge difference compared to a ps box without the fast-ratio arms, especially for running through tight pylon autocross events. My current T/A ps box, having the correct pitman and longer idler arms, AND with the Saginaw pump, plus with a reduced diameter steering wheel (mine is 11.5" diameter.. not really too small).. all combines to react very quickly through pylon manuevers, as well as on street/hwy/and road courses. Granted, the heavier weight of the original T/A ps box is there, but that's something that, according to the club "rules"... has to be accepted. 
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: 1fastabody]
#1519539
10/24/13 09:01 PM
10/24/13 09:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577
Long Island, NY USA
BergmanAutoCraft
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577
Long Island, NY USA
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Quote:
Bergman,
Maybe you can chime in on this, Is there any advantage to going to the larger pitman shaft box?
I don't think there is any appreciable different among the 2. It comes down to what you have to start with. If its an A body they have different pitman/idler/centerlink fir each respective box.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: 1fastabody]
#1519540
10/24/13 11:27 PM
10/24/13 11:27 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
Bergman,
Maybe you can chime in on this, Is there any advantage to going to the larger pitman shaft box?
the boxes are the same price, but I did notice that if your buying the stock ratio pitman and idler arms, the price for the smaller arms are about double than the ones for the bigger shaft.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: dangina]
#1519541
10/25/13 12:35 AM
10/25/13 12:35 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
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So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
Bergman,
Maybe you can chime in on this, Is there any advantage to going to the larger pitman shaft box?
the boxes are the same price, but I did notice that if your buying the stock ratio pitman and idler arms, the price for the smaller arms are about double than the ones for the bigger shaft.
 Yes. The bigger spines are cheaper.
The bigger shaft starts in 1973 and the aftermarket is more likely to carry and have better prices on parts for the newer cars.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: 71rm23]
#1519544
11/01/13 10:01 PM
11/01/13 10:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
Here ya go
the diagram should show where you have to do some clearancing with a die grinder on the box lol
did they ever fix that issue yet?
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: cjskotni]
#1519546
01/22/14 04:40 PM
01/22/14 04:40 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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No it does not, Bergmann above sells everything needed for a bolt in swap.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: dickdale]
#1519548
01/22/14 09:53 PM
01/22/14 09:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 704
USA
rftroy
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 704
USA
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Quote:
Quote:
How much lighter is the Borgeson over the factory unit ?
Borgeson weighs 22 pounds... Stock, anyone?
Just weighed the power steering box from my 70 Roadrunner - accurate shipping scale.
With no pitman arm, hoses, or input shaft coupler:
34lb-10.5oz.
Robert
AAR 4-speed 3.91, Tor-Red;
70 440 6 pack Roadrunner 4-speed 3.54, Plum Crazy;
68 Formula S conv 383 4-speed 3.23, Electric Blue;
69 Barracuda conv Slant 6 OD4 2.94, 71 B5 Blue;
78 Lil' Red Truck, Red;
70 Challenger S/E. 505 6 pack, Passon 5-speed, 3.55, B7 Blue
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: cjskotni]
#1519549
01/22/14 11:34 PM
01/22/14 11:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
Does this box require cutting the steering column? I'd be interested in going this route but I am hesitant to butcher my column...
You do if u have a manual column
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: goldduster318]
#1519550
01/22/14 11:37 PM
01/22/14 11:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
Here's a photo of the Bergman adapters installed in my A-body. This is with the stock PS pressure line
So stock lines now hook up to the box? I thought u needed adapters
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: challenger70]
#1519553
01/23/14 01:45 PM
01/23/14 01:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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The lighter weight of the Borgeson box is a great plus... 10 pounds here, there.. especially off the front end, all adds up towards a better handling modified vehicle. IF this were "legal" in the club racing rules for the specific classes that I choose to run, which, unfortunately it's not for my present classes (SCCA E/SP, and others), I'd be most interested I doing this swap.
The only down-side I see with the Borgeson box is that the steering turns lock-to-lock (3.5?) is greater than the T/A fast-ratio box (2.7)... and fastest steering is what's needed E/Specially in pylon autocrossing.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: challenger70]
#1519554
01/23/14 03:45 PM
01/23/14 03:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
Viol8r
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
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Quote:
UGHHH! I just got my stage 3 box back from firm feel, and just read the article in Mopar Action about this (I am a lot behind on magazine reading).  Is there a appreciable difference between the FF stage 3 and this box? Lets say you had a freshly rebuilt FF box, would you still do this swap? What does a complete swap run?
We run FF 3 with quick ratio on big tracks and really have no issues at all. I can't imagine the difference is substantial enough to lose sleep over.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#1519555
01/23/14 04:23 PM
01/23/14 04:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
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Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
The only down-side I see with the Borgeson box is that the steering turns lock-to-lock (3.5?) is greater than the T/A fast-ratio box (2.7)... and fastest steering is what's needed E/Specially in pylon autocrossing.
Std power steering is 16:1
T/A quick ratio arm makes it 12.7:1
The Borgeson is 14:1 Which is little quicker than splitting the difference.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#1519556
01/24/14 01:28 AM
01/24/14 01:28 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
I ordered a new hose-kit from Borgeson to replace the older and hardened hoses on the car. The kit comes with hoses AND adapters.
The Borg hose-kit (which I bought) only worked with a saginaw pump. I changed over from a Federal pump to the Saginaw, which I had laying around anyway.
thanks for the pic, I gotta check the ones I got, I asked boregson for some lines without using adapters that, ones that bolt to the saginaw pump and their box and they sent me a set, put on the front it says for a late mustang? I haven't gotten around to installing it yet..
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#1519558
01/24/14 11:44 AM
01/24/14 11:44 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Doesnt Peter sell the right lines for the Federal pump?
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#1519560
01/24/14 01:22 PM
01/24/14 01:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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PLUS... the FEDERAL PUMPS will likely NOT be able to keep up with quick l-r-l-r etc steering response, as we all should know by now. ONLY use the SAGINAW pumps for quick steering response.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#1519562
01/25/14 01:52 AM
01/25/14 01:52 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
The description of the hose-kit on Summit ( brg-925102 ) says indeed;
"Connects GM power steering pumps to 1979-97 Mustang rack and pinion."
You need to have a Saginaw steeringpump with this kit with it's fitting on the back of the pump.
The Federal (type) pumps are different and the hosekit ends are angled wrong for these pumps aswell.
thanks for answering this! I probably have the right kit then, do I still have to buy adapters with this hose kit?
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#1519564
02/03/14 01:35 PM
02/03/14 01:35 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577
Long Island, NY USA
BergmanAutoCraft
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577
Long Island, NY USA
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Quote:
PLUS... the FEDERAL PUMPS will likely NOT be able to keep up with quick l-r-l-r etc steering response, as we all should know by now. ONLY use the SAGINAW pumps for quick steering response.
Federal has survived many track events, more than most will ever do. Track events and autocross are two different things any way. Personally, I'm not a fan of autocross.
The clear up the hose issue, here are some facts.
1. Adapters are required due to the metric thread in the new box.
2. I make adapters for 69 and down with the smaller male pressure fitting, 70-72 with the larger male pressure fitting. For 73 and up, I included an earlier hose with the proper female end to adapt to the larger 70-72 pressure fitting.
3.Borgeson has hoses, but they are general fit and very stiff. My kit is designed to use your pressure and return hoses for a true bolt in fit.
Any other questions feel free to PM me or contact me directly through my site Bergmanautocraft.com.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: floridian]
#1519566
02/07/14 04:51 PM
02/07/14 04:51 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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It is a good deal in any application if you ask me. Lighter,more compact,excellent feel and better ratio. Only thing it isnt is cheap.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: floridian]
#1519568
02/07/14 07:33 PM
02/07/14 07:33 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
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Quote:
What about using the Borgeson box for street use only?? I hadn't driven my car in a while and was really surprised at how bad the stock steering is...
I use my Borgeson steering box every day. 100% street use only.
Occassionally I take a drive in one of my other cars and the looseness of the steering is the first thing that occurs to me.
What the Borg-box makes real clear compared to an old steeringbox is that I can now drive around without having to make numerous steering wheel corrections on normally straight roads.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#1519569
02/08/14 06:32 PM
02/08/14 06:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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Can anyone here suggest how the tightness of the Borgeson psbox compares to a FirmFeel stage 1-2 or 3 firmness after its been re-conditioned? What level (1-2-3) would it compare to? (I believe Steer'n'Gear offers similar firmness in their re-conditioning, so, we should include them, too.)
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#1519570
02/08/14 06:48 PM
02/08/14 06:48 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 380
Escondido CA USA
Tomswheels
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 380
Escondido CA USA
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I have the Firm Feel stage 3 on my 69 Barracuda, and it's good, except for the fact there is still some just off center numbness. For Autocrossing it's not ideal. I'm putting the Borgeson in my 67 Valiant because if it's anything like the newer Cherokee it came out of, it will be better...
Last edited by Tomswheels; 02/08/14 06:50 PM.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#1519571
02/08/14 07:20 PM
02/08/14 07:20 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Quote:
Can anyone here suggest how the tightness of the Borgeson psbox compares to a FirmFeel stage 1-2 or 3 firmness after its been re-conditioned? What level (1-2-3) would it compare to? (I believe Steer'n'Gear offers similar firmness in their re-conditioning, so, we should include them, too.)
"I have the Firm Feel stage 3 on my 69 Barracuda, and it's good, except for the fact there is still some just off center numbness."
I have the Stage 3 in my Charger. As long as I am turning (The steering under a load) it feels fine. It is the feeling just a few degrees either side of center that I don't like. My 186,000 mile 2007 Ram feels tight as can be at all steering angles. I wish that the FF box felt as good. I'd be more inclined to keep it and forget any other option.
I like what Hotchkis has done to promote their stuff: Having a test vehicle at car events to showcase the capabilities of Mopars with their parts installed. I would LOVE to drive a Borgeson equipped car to know what to expect. Reviews are great but nothing beats feeling it for yourself. If these kits were dirt cheap I'd take the risk without question. I'm not doubting the value of the Borgeson unit, I'm just not willing to spend the cash unless I'm sure I'll like it.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Tomswheels]
#1519572
02/09/14 10:10 AM
02/09/14 10:10 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,468
Answering the call of the wild
ThermoQuad
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,468
Answering the call of the wild
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Quote:
I have the Firm Feel stage 3 on my 69 Barracuda, and it's good, except for the fact there is still some just off center numbness. For Autocrossing it's not ideal. I'm putting the Borgeson in my 67 Valiant because if it's anything like the newer Cherokee it came out of, it will be better...
Cars that are not reinforced in critical areas will exhibit the "off center numbness" regardless of whose steering box is in the car. The bigger the front tires - the more numbness you will experience under load.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#1519576
02/12/14 04:34 PM
02/12/14 04:34 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 380
Escondido CA USA
Tomswheels
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 380
Escondido CA USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I have the Firm Feel stage 3 on my 69 Barracuda, and it's good, except for the fact there is still some just off center numbness. For Autocrossing it's not ideal. I'm putting the Borgeson in my 67 Valiant because if it's anything like the newer Cherokee it came out of, it will be better...
Cars that are not reinforced in critical areas will exhibit the "off center numbness" regardless of whose steering box is in the car. The bigger the front tires - the more numbness you will experience under load.
Perhaps I'm not describing it correctly, but with my Firm Feel stage 3 box occasionally, not every time, you will turn the steering wheel one inch and get nothing, then two inches, nothing, then as you turn the third inch you get 3 inches of input all at once. It ain't tires or a lack of stiffness in the car, it's the steering box. Since it doesn't do it every time, it can make the car a handful in quick transitions. I'm going Borgeson....
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Tomswheels]
#1519578
02/12/14 06:58 PM
02/12/14 06:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
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Quote:
Perhaps I'm not describing it correctly, but with my Firm Feel stage 3 box occasionally, not every time, you will turn the steering wheel one inch and get nothing, then two inches, nothing, then as you turn the third inch you get 3 inches of input all at once. It ain't tires or a lack of stiffness in the car, it's the steering box. Since it doesn't do it every time, it can make the car a handful in quick transitions. I'm going Borgeson....
I somewhat recognize this behaviour, but are you really sure that comes from the steeringbox only?
I would think this has more to do with a wheel alignment or maybe a more likely worn idler arm bushing.
One car of mine sometimes shows this behaviour aswell, but I know the wheels aren't aligned properly, along with an old stock powersteering box.
Is the numbness only felt when turning the steeringwheel either to the left, or the right at that time?
If it's only happening at one direction, the linkage could just be busy taking up all the slack in the system first before the actual wheelmovement is happening.
You might be able to test this stationary by checking toe-settings while slightly turning the steeringwheel alternatly left and right, and compare both possible toe-setting differences.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#1519584
02/16/14 06:14 PM
02/16/14 06:14 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,118
85086
moparpollack
Lil Herman
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Lil Herman
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,118
85086
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Quote:
I wonder when the first C-body will pop up with a Borgbox under the hood... 
Maybe Feets will be looking to improve the steering in his Imperial in time?
Isn't an Imperial different than a C body?
56 Plaza 63 D100 step side 67 Coronet, 68 Roadrunner, 69 Super Bees, 69 Coronet 500 convertible, 70 Roadrunner Post, 79 D150 360, and a severe case of Mopar a,d,d
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#1519585
02/16/14 06:47 PM
02/16/14 06:47 PM
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Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,432
NorCal
RylisPro
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,432
NorCal
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Quote:
Quote:
I have the Firm Feel stage 3 on my 69 Barracuda, and it's good, except for the fact there is still some just off center numbness. For Autocrossing it's not ideal. I'm putting the Borgeson in my 67 Valiant because if it's anything like the newer Cherokee it came out of, it will be better...
Cars that are not reinforced in critical areas will exhibit the "off center numbness" regardless of whose steering box is in the car. The bigger the front tires - the more numbness you will experience under load.
I got the FF Stage 2 box and their sector support kit and I definitely have a gap of about 15 degrees on the steering from center left or right before the wheels start to move. I wonder if it is worse because of my steamroller tires? I must say it still feels a lot better than my steering from before!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: moparpollack]
#1519587
02/16/14 08:35 PM
02/16/14 08:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
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Quote:
Isn't an Imperial different than a C body?
A lot of things are different on those cars but I don't think or see why they would have designed a different steeringbox for such a low production car line. But I'll probably be proven wrong... 
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: RylisPro]
#1519588
02/16/14 10:21 PM
02/16/14 10:21 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Quote:
Cars that are not reinforced in critical areas will exhibit the "off center numbness" regardless of whose steering box is in the car. The bigger the front tires - the more numbness you will experience under load.
I got the FF Stage 2 box and their sector support kit and I definitely have a gap of about 15 degrees on the steering from center left or right before the wheels start to move. I wonder if it is worse because of my steamroller tires? I must say it still feels a lot better than my steering from before!
I have a reinforced K member in the Charger, a FF #3 box, 275-40-18 front tires and there is a degree of looseness from 11:00 to 1:00 no matter the adjustment on the top of the steering chuck. This is what I have heard elsewhere. I don't blame the Firm Feel guys. I think that it is due to the actual design of the steering unit itself. It is because of this that I am curious about the Borgeson unit.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1519589
02/17/14 12:54 AM
02/17/14 12:54 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
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By making small mesh adjustments, I haven't had a Firm Feel rebuilt box that is any different from the Borgeson units. Any slop in the steering is induced by deflection in tires, components or alignments that cause steering center to be off.
FWIW, we have cars with both boxes, we sell neither, so we are about as unbiased as you can get. I just want you guys to have fast cars. If the Firm Feel guys say your box is toast, or you are converting to power form manual, then I would say that Bergman or Borgeson is the way to go. If you car is already a power car, save some coin and rebuilt and adjust what you have. And remember, the mesh is a fine tuning to a larger adjustment.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1519592
02/18/14 06:42 PM
02/18/14 06:42 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577
Long Island, NY USA
BergmanAutoCraft
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577
Long Island, NY USA
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Quote:
By making small mesh adjustments, I haven't had a Firm Feel rebuilt box that is any different from the Borgeson units. Any slop in the steering is induced by deflection in tires, components or alignments that cause steering center to be off.
FWIW, we have cars with both boxes, we sell neither, so we are about as unbiased as you can get. I just want you guys to have fast cars. If the Firm Feel guys say your box is toast, or you are converting to power form manual, then I would say that Bergman or Borgeson is the way to go. If you car is already a power car, save some coin and rebuilt and adjust what you have. And remember, the mesh is a fine tuning to a larger adjustment.
Sorry Dan, I have to disagree here...Cannot fight technology on this one....
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: komninon]
#1519593
02/20/14 02:44 AM
02/20/14 02:44 AM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
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Quote:
we have ordered the borgeson box from bergman auto carft ,their coupler and hose kit. i took out my firmfeel III box with fast ratio pitman arm. hopefully we have it instaled soon , i will let you know if it is worth the money.
The way this winter is going your going to be test driving your car in May for that report....unless you want to drive it in this salty soupy mess out there.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: komninon]
#1519595
02/20/14 01:24 PM
02/20/14 01:24 PM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 7
Washington State
cudaragtop
member
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member
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 7
Washington State
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Quote:
we have ordered the borgeson box from bergman auto carft ,their coupler and hose kit. i took out my firmfeel III box with fast ratio pitman arm. hopefully we have it instaled soon , i will let you know if it is worth the money.
Will you be trying the fast ratio arms with the Borg box? I'm interested in what the drivability is like with that combination.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: cudaragtop]
#1519596
02/20/14 05:09 PM
02/20/14 05:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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I'm also interested to hear about the Borg'sn box WITH the fast-ratio longer arms (pitman and idler).... for steering response.
I initially also suspect the inside front tires will hit the frame rail more easily.
Aside from the newer technology of the Borg'sn box, in my opinion, the biggest advantage is the lighter weight of it as compared to a factory older ps box.... continuos reduced weight = faster lap times in every respect (accel, decel, cornering).
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: komninon]
#1519598
02/20/14 05:59 PM
02/20/14 05:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
brads70
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
i will be using the stock pitman arm with the new box. c
Bummer....
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#1519599
02/20/14 08:33 PM
02/20/14 08:33 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 380
Escondido CA USA
Tomswheels
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 380
Escondido CA USA
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Quote:
I'm also interested to hear about the Borg'sn box WITH the fast-ratio longer arms (pitman and idler).... for steering response.
I initially also suspect the inside front tires will hit the frame rail more easily.
Aside from the newer technology of the Borg'sn box, in my opinion, the biggest advantage is the lighter weight of it as compared to a factory older ps box.... continuos reduced weight = faster lap times in every respect (accel, decel, cornering).
I'm putting Fast-Ratio on my 67 Valiant with a welded K-frame and a Borgeson. Parts just arrived, should be up and driving in 3 weeks...
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Tomswheels]
#1519600
02/20/14 10:09 PM
02/20/14 10:09 PM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 7
Washington State
cudaragtop
member
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member
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 7
Washington State
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm also interested to hear about the Borg'sn box WITH the fast-ratio longer arms (pitman and idler).... for steering response.
I initially also suspect the inside front tires will hit the frame rail more easily.
Aside from the newer technology of the Borg'sn box, in my opinion, the biggest advantage is the lighter weight of it as compared to a factory older ps box.... continuos reduced weight = faster lap times in every respect (accel, decel, cornering).
I'm putting Fast-Ratio on my 67 Valiant with a welded K-frame and a Borgeson. Parts just arrived, should be up and driving in 3 weeks...
Sweet!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#1519601
02/20/14 11:30 PM
02/20/14 11:30 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,704
MICHIGAN
DynoDave
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,704
MICHIGAN
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Quote:
I initially also suspect the inside front tires will hit the frame rail more easily.
As a learning moment for me....why would this be?
Fast ratio arm(s) on a FF box or Borg. box....wouldn't the physical travel of the arm(s) through space be the same (assuming the Borg. box pitman shaft exits the box at the same point in space as the factory / FF box)? You might get there (the frame rails/end of travel) quicker/sooner with the Borg. box due to a faster internal ratio, but wouldn't ultimate travel be the same? 
We're getting dangerously close to the limits of my thinking here... 
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: DynoDave]
#1519602
02/21/14 01:53 AM
02/21/14 01:53 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Longer arms=more movement per steering wheel rotation=more movement at the tire per steering wheel rotation.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Tomswheels]
#1519605
02/21/14 04:56 AM
02/21/14 04:56 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm also interested to hear about the Borg'sn box WITH the fast-ratio longer arms (pitman and idler).... for steering response.
I initially also suspect the inside front tires will hit the frame rail more easily.
Aside from the newer technology of the Borg'sn box, in my opinion, the biggest advantage is the lighter weight of it as compared to a factory older ps box.... continuos reduced weight = faster lap times in every respect (accel, decel, cornering).
I'm putting Fast-Ratio on my 67 Valiant with a welded K-frame and a Borgeson. Parts just arrived, should be up and driving in 3 weeks...
interested in this I've heard that it would be too twitchy on the hiway with this setup, but no actual real proof. I bought the stock pitman and idler but did the firm feel roller bearing idler kit instead but I haven't installed them yet, I may just bite the bullet and get the fast ratio arms instead. I figure that it should give a ratio around 2 turns lock to lock? which shouldn't be that bad - I've read that the camaro and firebird guys are getting 1.7 turns lock to lock and they don't seem to have any problems, actually they comment about getting that ratio lower...
Last edited by dangina; 02/21/14 04:57 AM.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: dangina]
#1519607
02/21/14 06:21 PM
02/21/14 06:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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Dangina -- the "twichyness" will be caused by the alignmemt... if not enough positive caster, then more twitchyness.... Toe out will also welcome it, but IMO... just adapt and re-learn the car's new steering. My steering is quickened, additionally, by a smaller diameter steering wheel (11.5" dia)... driving on the hwy or road courses are no problem.... very enjoyable!... I have no "twitchyness" whatsoever.... steering is very responsive (original never rebuilt T/A ps box, fast rati pitman arm, corrected longer length idler arm). Another point to consider, is lower/wider profile tires ~50-45-40-35 having their wider/narrower contact patch, vs taller narrower profile tires ~55-60-65-70 having their narrower/longer contact patch. Latitude (cornering) improvemenmts benefit from wide/narrow patches (ie: auto-x/road racer tires), while longitudinal (accel/decel) improvements benefit from narrower/longer patches (ie: dragster rear tires). Steering with a narrower/longer contact patch (55-60-65-70 profiles) carry the car further straight; opposite with lower proflie tires. 
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#1519609
02/21/14 07:46 PM
02/21/14 07:46 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
Dangina -- the "twichyness" will be caused by the alignmemt... if not enough positive caster, then more twitchyness.... Toe out will also welcome it, but IMO... just adapt and re-learn the car's new steering. My steering is quickened, additionally, by a smaller diameter steering wheel (11.5" dia)... driving on the hwy or road courses are no problem.... very enjoyable!... I have no "twitchyness" whatsoever.... steering is very responsive (original never rebuilt T/A ps box, fast rati pitman arm, corrected longer length idler arm).
Another point to consider, is lower/wider profile tires ~50-45-40-35 having their wider/narrower contact patch, vs taller narrower profile tires ~55-60-65-70 having their narrower/longer contact patch. Latitude (cornering) improvemenmts benefit from wide/narrow patches (ie: auto-x/road racer tires), while longitudinal (accel/decel) improvements benefit from narrower/longer patches (ie: dragster rear tires). Steering with a narrower/longer contact patch (55-60-65-70 profiles) carry the car further straight; opposite with lower proflie tires.
Thanks mitch for the insight, you just made my decision easier ordered a set today. Worse case scenario if it seems like too much, I put the stock ones back in
*edit* talked to matt at firm feel, says I can use their idler bearing roller kit with this setup, best of both worlds
Last edited by dangina; 02/21/14 10:32 PM.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: BigBlockMopar]
#1519610
02/23/14 06:01 PM
02/23/14 06:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
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Quote:
I still have a stock, unmodified K-member in my '73 Dart.
Since the K-member in my car has been powdercoated at one time, adding reinforcements while mounted in the car is a bit hard to do at the moment.
I do want to gusset the steeringbox mount but that will probably be when I'm ready to an engine swap in the car.
Just out of the blue I decided to add a simple plate to gusset and reinforce the steeringbox-mount a little better.
I made the plate large enough to reach the areas where I could still easily clean the powder coating off the member with an angle grinder.
I also welded a plate across the bottoms of the LCA's and welded the tierod sleeves in the centers.
When I took the car for a spin after this I tought I could feel the steering felt a bit tighter and more direct. But the improvement was much yet.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: sublimehemi]
#1519615
02/28/14 10:34 AM
02/28/14 10:34 AM
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,001
Coram, NY
Pool Fixer
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 3,001
Coram, NY
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Quote:
Quote:
I just ordered a borgeson box and qa1 kmember along with qa1 LCA's... wondering if I will have to clearance the box for the qa1 kmember?
mine fit good no grindage
Thanks! another question: I installed the SD concepts serpentine conversion on my 440 so I'm running a 99 grand cherokee power steering pump. Not sure what hoses/fittings I'll need.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Tomswheels]
#1519616
03/19/14 03:56 AM
03/19/14 03:56 AM
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Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 7
Washington State
cudaragtop
member
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member
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 7
Washington State
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Quote:
I'm putting Fast-Ratio on my 67 Valiant with a welded K-frame and a Borgeson. Parts just arrived, should be up and driving in 3 weeks...
Just checking to see if you got it installed yet... 
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: cudaragtop]
#1519617
03/19/14 11:57 AM
03/19/14 11:57 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm putting Fast-Ratio on my 67 Valiant with a welded K-frame and a Borgeson. Parts just arrived, should be up and driving in 3 weeks...
Just checking to see if you got it installed yet...
Nope. We are still waiting for some other parts to come in.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: dangina]
#1519622
03/26/14 08:25 PM
03/26/14 08:25 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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I think I might have been a tad past flush. I used my original arm too. It will only go so far before the torque spec is met.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1519623
03/26/14 09:20 PM
03/26/14 09:20 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
I think I might have been a tad past flush. I used my original arm too. It will only go so far before the torque spec is met.
using the fast ratio arm I guess as long as I get my 175lbs of torque? Right now its not quite flush. I need a bigger torque wrench...
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: dangina]
#1519624
03/26/14 09:39 PM
03/26/14 09:39 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
brads70
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
I think I might have been a tad past flush. I used my original arm too. It will only go so far before the torque spec is met.
using the fast ratio arm I guess as long as I get my 175lbs of torque? Right now its not quite flush. I need a bigger torque wrench...
 Got any pictures? The position of that arm affects bumpsteer.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: brads70]
#1519626
03/27/14 02:01 AM
03/27/14 02:01 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think I might have been a tad past flush. I used my original arm too. It will only go so far before the torque spec is met.
using the fast ratio arm I guess as long as I get my 175lbs of torque? Right now its not quite flush. I need a bigger torque wrench...
Got any pictures? The position of that arm affects bumpsteer.
I'll take a pic, I tried centering the wheels and the ps box before i put on the pitman arm. how does it affect bumpsteer?
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: dangina]
#1519629
03/28/14 04:13 AM
03/28/14 04:13 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
took a quick pic - I pulled it off, repositioned it and put it on 3 times and got the same results every time so screw it, I got my 175lbs of torque on it, its not going anywhere
Quote:
I'm not liking the difference between these two pictures both with Borgeson Boxes.
I know of another Borgeson that the installer said it put the pitman in a different place and the centrelink was not parallel. I thought it was an anomaly with that car or pitman, but what dangina has posted has me wondering what is going on. 
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1519630
03/28/14 05:04 AM
03/28/14 05:04 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
I'm not liking the difference between these two pictures both with Borgeson Boxes.
I know of another Borgeson that the installer said it put the pitman in a different place and the centrelink was not parallel. I thought it was an anomaly with that car or pitman, but what dangina has posted has me wondering what is going on.
The fast ratio arm has no center link like the old pitman had. I can't remember who the other poster on here said they were gonna run a fast ratio on their boregson, I wondered how his turned out?
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: dangina]
#1519631
03/28/14 05:53 AM
03/28/14 05:53 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm not liking the difference between these two pictures both with Borgeson Boxes.
I know of another Borgeson that the installer said it put the pitman in a different place and the centrelink was not parallel. I thought it was an anomaly with that car or pitman, but what dangina has posted has me wondering what is going on.
The fast ratio arm has no center link like the old pitman had. I can't remember who the other poster on here said they were gonna run a fast ratio on their boregson, I wondered how his turned out?
I meant this being the centerlink:
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: brads70]
#1519634
03/28/14 10:32 AM
03/28/14 10:32 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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I would question the aftermarket pitman arm before throwing the box under the bus.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1519636
03/28/14 10:45 AM
03/28/14 10:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
brads70
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
I would question the aftermarket pitman arm before throwing the box under the bus.
Good point  I assumed he just replaced the box with an existing set up.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: 1fastabody]
#1519638
03/28/14 02:28 PM
03/28/14 02:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
Do you have the old pitman arm or another pitman arm that you can try? This would take the pitman arm out of the question. I know a lot of these replacement parts are machined over seas and the quality control is not that great.
I can try the old pitman I guess. I've just wasted enough time and effort with this that I really don't want to pull it all apart and put it back together 2 more times lol
sorry about the confusion of the centerlink, I meant their are no master splines on the arm, I kinda wished they did though, I had a fast ratio arm for another car from PST and it didn't have any master splines on it as well, this one I have now is from firm feel
I had also tried it on without attaching to the centerlink, same results
I am using the bigger sector box for reference
Last edited by dangina; 03/28/14 02:46 PM.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: dangina]
#1519639
03/28/14 03:22 PM
03/28/14 03:22 PM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 153
Wildwood, FL
1fastabody
OP
member
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OP
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 153
Wildwood, FL
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Quote:
Quote:
Do you have the old pitman arm or another pitman arm that you can try? This would take the pitman arm out of the question. I know a lot of these replacement parts are machined over seas and the quality control is not that great.
I can try the old pitman I guess. I've just wasted enough time and effort with this that I really don't want to pull it all apart and put it back together 2 more times lol
sorry about the confusion of the centerlink, I meant their are no master splines on the arm, I kinda wished they did though, I had a fast ratio arm for another car from PST and it didn't have any master splines on it as well, this one I have now is from firm feel
I had also tried it on without attaching to the centerlink, same results
I am using the bigger sector box for reference
If you don't want to install the old one you can use some calipers and measure the major diameter of the I.D. splines and then compare old pitman to new pitman. You can also do this on the box but you will have to measure from the end of the threads to a given point and measure both sector shafts the same.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: jcc]
#1519649
03/29/14 01:13 AM
03/29/14 01:13 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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So we are assuming this spline engagement issue is causing an un correctable bump steer issue?
I will say the 1/8th or so will effect bump steer, not saying it's a huge amount. I'm just thinking of my setup . I found moving the inner tie rod 1/8th did affect bump steer by about .020"( moving the outer tie rod had more effect) I also found you can't move the inner tire rod much as it hits the torsion bars.(Dangina I'd double check this!) I'm using 1.120" All the hours I spent getting it to where I did I would want the arm to mount in the same spot as my original box. I found Stock e bodys have ( mine was anyway?) about 3/4-1" of bump steer in 3 inches of compression travel. So with 99% of E/B body's out there will .020" make much difference? Nope... I'm just concerned with mine as I'm considering buying one of these boxes. I hear A body's do not suffer from the same issue though. I don't know for sure as I've never worked on one? 
Maybe somewhat hidden in my question, do we know how correct the bumpsteer is before this new issue, or could the 1/8" actually improve matters, strictly by chance?
I actually bought the bumpsteer setup from longacre, finally get the chance today put it on and check what I'm at, and the kit they sent me is just a blank plate. I'll have to drill out the hub and 5x4.5" holes myself on my days off which unfortunatly is not until mid next week. If its not one thing its another...
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: brads70]
#1519657
04/01/14 07:12 PM
04/01/14 07:12 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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FWIW my small spline is just like the one pictured above.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: dangina]
#1519660
04/03/14 02:25 AM
04/03/14 02:25 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
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Quote:
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FWIW my small spline is just like the one pictured above.
which pic?
hey dan did you get around to installing the pitman on yet?
Been buried with stuff today, just got to it. Unfortunately, large sector box, small sector pitman.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: dangina]
#1519662
04/05/14 07:27 PM
04/05/14 07:27 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
can anyone with a large sector installed chime in? still no word from boregson.
Bumping this question again. No reply back from boregson
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: dangina]
#1519663
04/05/14 09:02 PM
04/05/14 09:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
brads70
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
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can anyone with a large sector installed chime in? still no word from boregson.
Bumping this question again. No reply back from boregson
Not cool! 
Wonder if Dan got to try his out yet? It was his birthday a couple days ago and he has been busy at the autocross track. So he has been busy! Dan how is the new engine?
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: brads70]
#1519664
04/07/14 11:26 AM
04/07/14 11:26 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
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Quote:
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can anyone with a large sector installed chime in? still no word from boregson.
Bumping this question again. No reply back from boregson
Not cool!
Wonder if Dan got to try his out yet? It was his birthday a couple days ago and he has been busy at the autocross track. So he has been busy! Dan how is the new engine?
I don't even want to talk about that. The machinist is coming to the shop to make a housecall today. I put the Road Runner in the back of the shop and put a car cover on it Friday. Co-Drove the R&D 65 Mustang at the SCCA National Tour over the weekend. Road Runner will most likely not be making it to Vegas this year.
As to the sector/arm issue, I'll see if I can get something figured out this week.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1519665
04/07/14 12:54 PM
04/07/14 12:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
brads70
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
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can anyone with a large sector installed chime in? still no word from boregson.
Bumping this question again. No reply back from boregson
Not cool!
Wonder if Dan got to try his out yet? It was his birthday a couple days ago and he has been busy at the autocross track. So he has been busy! Dan how is the new engine?
I don't even want to talk about that. The machinist is coming to the shop to make a housecall today. I put the Road Runner in the back of the shop and put a car cover on it Friday. Co-Drove the R&D 65 Mustang at the SCCA National Tour over the weekend. Road Runner will most likely not be making it to Vegas this year.
As to the sector/arm issue, I'll see if I can get something figured out this week.
yuck not fun! Been there...
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: dangina]
#1519667
04/07/14 03:31 PM
04/07/14 03:31 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
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Quote:
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can anyone with a large sector installed chime in? still no word from boregson.
Bumping this question again. No reply back from boregson
I've got the large sector. Don't remember which brand pitman I put on it, but it's a regular auto parts store part.
My engagement isn't much better than yours. I believe I had to thread the nut without the washer, cinch it up, pulled it off, then barely got the nut to thread with the lock washer. The shaft doesn't make it out of the nut on mine. Shouldn't be a safety issue, as it hasn't moved in 6 track days. Ya'll have me curious now if it could cause any bumpsteer issues.
-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Uhcoog1]
#1519668
04/07/14 03:48 PM
04/07/14 03:48 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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Maybe the issue is simply not enough threads? FWIW my small spline box has 1" of threads and the stock pitman is between 11/16 and 3/4" thick.
Last edited by 72Swinger; 04/07/14 03:51 PM.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: Uhcoog1]
#1519669
04/07/14 08:49 PM
04/07/14 08:49 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
can anyone with a large sector installed chime in? still no word from boregson.
Bumping this question again. No reply back from boregson
I've got the large sector. Don't remember which brand pitman I put on it, but it's a regular auto parts store part.
My engagement isn't much better than yours. I believe I had to thread the nut without the washer, cinch it up, pulled it off, then barely got the nut to thread with the lock washer. The shaft doesn't make it out of the nut on mine. Shouldn't be a safety issue, as it hasn't moved in 6 track days. Ya'll have me curious now if it could cause any bumpsteer issues.
Thanks for the reply - I had to do the exact same thing put nut on first, cinch it up, then pull it off to put the lock washer and nut back on. You can see in mine that the nut also doesn't make it all the way through, just glad to here that I'm not the only one, should have went with small sector, looks like the better fit
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: dangina]
#1519672
04/16/14 10:28 AM
04/16/14 10:28 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 153
Wildwood, FL
1fastabody
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 153
Wildwood, FL
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Quote:
Quote:
can anyone with a large sector installed chime in? still no word from boregson.
Bumping this question again. No reply back from boregson
Did you ever hear back?
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: dangina]
#1519674
04/17/14 10:24 AM
04/17/14 10:24 AM
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 153
Wildwood, FL
1fastabody
OP
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Wildwood, FL
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Quote:
never heard back - seeing how the only other person with a big sector experinced the same problem it looks like it might be that way for all of them. Lesson here: buy the small sector
Well that sucks that they never responded, not good customer service. They could have at least sent a email saying they would look into it.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: 1fastabody]
#1519675
04/17/14 11:36 AM
04/17/14 11:36 AM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
dangina
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,491
Lethbridge, AB, Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
never heard back - seeing how the only other person with a big sector experinced the same problem it looks like it might be that way for all of them. Lesson here: buy the small sector
Well that sucks that they never responded, not good customer service. They could have at least sent a email saying they would look into it.
he only did that one time and said I had enough thread engagement, maybe they think its not an issue worth looking into?
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: 1fastabody]
#1519676
04/17/14 11:42 AM
04/17/14 11:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
BigBlockMopar
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,575
The Netherlands
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Any chance that the large sector pitman-arms are slightly thicker in height perhaps? I recall having used a manual steering pitman arm from a Dodge which fit the smallsector Borgbox nicely. This mockup pic is with the pitman arm just pushed on the splines by hand; 
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: floridian]
#1519680
04/18/14 09:12 AM
04/18/14 09:12 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577
Long Island, NY USA
BergmanAutoCraft
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,577
Long Island, NY USA
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Quote:
OK, dumb question here...
Small sector 67 and older
large sector 68 and newer. Is this correct??
The small sector steering arms are about double in price last time I had to buy one..
Again assuming my question is correct, I would buy a large sector box to upgrade newer in my car.. Just my opinion
73 and up is large sector.
For A bodies, a swap to large sector requires an idler and center link too.
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: BergmanAutoCraft]
#1519681
04/18/14 11:42 AM
04/18/14 11:42 AM
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Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,574
Lakeland FL
floridian
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,574
Lakeland FL
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Quote:
Quote:
OK, dumb question here...
Small sector 67 and older
large sector 68 and newer. Is this correct??
The small sector steering arms are about double in price last time I had to buy one..
Again assuming my question is correct, I would buy a large sector box to upgrade newer in my car.. Just my opinion
73 and up is large sector.
For A bodies, a swap to large sector requires an idler and center link too.
So sector size equates to diameter of shaft? Correct??
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Re: Borgeson Stering Box
[Re: floridian]
#1519682
04/20/14 01:05 AM
04/20/14 01:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
brads70
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
OK, dumb question here...
Small sector 67 and older
large sector 68 and newer. Is this correct??
The small sector steering arms are about double in price last time I had to buy one..
Again assuming my question is correct, I would buy a large sector box to upgrade newer in my car.. Just my opinion
73 and up is large sector.
For A bodies, a swap to large sector requires an idler and center link too.
So sector size equates to diameter of shaft? Correct??
Yep.
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. From what it sounds like, this would take care of the interference with the header, take care of my sloppy steering and give it a bit faster ratio. 
