Moparts
Borgeson Stering Box
Posted By: 1fastabody
Borgeson Stering Box - 10/18/13 07:35 PM
I found this post on another forum and thought this pic really shows the size difference well.
Here is the original post:
http://www.forbbodiesonly.com/moparforum...-this-afternoonStock vs. Borgeson
Posted By: 72440CUDA
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/18/13 08:09 PM
Cool, thanks. I was set to get a Firm Feel stage 2 box, but it think my decision has swayed to the Borgeson. I have a big block with Hooker Super Comp headers. With this set up, I would never be able to get a fast ratio pitman/idler arm, along with a header tube is kissing my power steering box
. From what it sounds like, this would take care of the interference with the header, take care of my sloppy steering and give it a bit faster ratio.
Posted By: 1fastabody
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/18/13 08:44 PM
Yea I was planning on getting the Borgeson Box, but never knew that there was that much size difference. That pic shows it well. Glad I was able to help.
I've sold a lot of my kits now, and the feedback is always the same - people didn't realize how good the steering can be.
Posted By: 70moparmike
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/21/13 02:20 PM
can you use the fast ratio idler and pitman arm with tti headers? 69 b/b b body? thanks
You could if you have the header clearance. However, I have not tried it.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/22/13 05:05 PM
Quote:
can you use the fast ratio idler and pitman arm with tti headers? 69 b/b b body? thanks
The pitman and idler should be in the same place as with a factory box. So if it worked with a factory box, it should in theory work with the Borgeson.
Caution: That would give you somewhere very roughly in the range of 10:1 to 11:1 steering ratio with the 14:1 Borgeson box. Be prepared for that.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/22/13 05:44 PM
I've been driving daily with a Borgeson box for a couple of months now in my Dart and I don't think I would mind some more direct steering than the 14:1 I now have.
Posted By: Mopar Mitch
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/23/13 03:09 AM
10 OR 11 TO 1 RATIO WOULD BE AWESOME!!! GO FOR IT!!! THAT'S WHAT WE WANT.. FASTEST STEERING POSSIBLE!!!
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/23/13 05:24 AM
What size is your steering wheel? If fast ratio arms will fit my car with a Gen III and headers I would try them at least. Right now with a 14" wheel and the Borgeson I am totally happy as I can steer and shift smoothly without loss of control. I havent found myself TOO busy at all. Autox brings a whole different set of "needs" to the table I expect.
Posted By: jcc
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/23/13 03:02 PM
Quote:
Caution: That would give you somewhere very roughly in the range of 10:1 to 11:1 steering ratio with the 14:1 Borgeson box. Be prepared for that.
You mean needing to install a Semi steering wheel, or going all out and adding an 8" ski boat steering wheel? 
I'm working on a tuff wheel look alike with a THICK leather grip and 13..75" diameter. It should help the "feel" somewhat.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/24/13 02:48 AM
Quote:
10 OR 11 TO 1 RATIO WOULD BE AWESOME!!! GO FOR IT!!! THAT'S WHAT WE WANT.. FASTEST STEERING POSSIBLE!!!
I wondered about this - is this too much for daily driving? I have the borgeson box and both stock and fast ratio pitman and idler arms at my disposal
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/24/13 05:56 AM
Quote:
Quote:
10 OR 11 TO 1 RATIO WOULD BE AWESOME!!! GO FOR IT!!! THAT'S WHAT WE WANT.. FASTEST STEERING POSSIBLE!!!
I wondered about this - is this too much for daily driving? I have the borgeson box and both stock and fast ratio pitman and idler arms at my disposal
Perfect if you have a way to set toe adjustment at home. Now you can check both ratios to what YOU LIKE. Ratio is mostly driver preference within a range. In an autocross though, very quick is almost always what drivers want.
I'd accurately measure each tie rod now to the 16th/32nd of inch and count threads exposed and check toe with plate or tread edge. Then put the fast ratio stuff on. Then reset toe only with tape measures and plates/edge.
If you want to go back, go back to your tie rod measurements, thread counts, and total toe measurements.
Get a ride height measurement at current and each total toe measurement. Measure and adjust each time on same location on the floor. Marking it with some tape on the floor is handy.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/24/13 06:55 AM
How much lighter is the Borgeson over the factory unit ?
Posted By: dickdale
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/24/13 08:02 AM
Quote:
How much lighter is the Borgeson over the factory unit ?
Borgeson weighs 22 pounds... Stock, anyone?
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/24/13 08:44 AM
The stock one has to weigh in around 40 lbs !
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/24/13 12:08 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
10 OR 11 TO 1 RATIO WOULD BE AWESOME!!! GO FOR IT!!! THAT'S WHAT WE WANT.. FASTEST STEERING POSSIBLE!!!
I wondered about this - is this too much for daily driving? I have the borgeson box and both stock and fast ratio pitman and idler arms at my disposal
Perfect if you have a way to set toe adjustment at home. Now you can check both ratios to what YOU LIKE. Ratio is mostly driver preference within a range. In an autocross though, very quick is almost always what drivers want.
I'd accurately measure each tie rod now to the 16th/32nd of inch and count threads exposed and check toe with plate or tread edge. Then put the fast ratio stuff on. Then reset toe only with tape measures and plates/edge.
If you want to go back, go back to your tie rod measurements, thread counts, and total toe measurements.
Get a ride height measurement at current and each total toe measurement. Measure and adjust each time on same location on the floor. Marking it with some tape on the floor is handy.
whats a good starting point when you put all of your front suspension together? I have a castor/camber guage as well as a bump steer guage. I think I understand your description on toe, Do you check toe with the weight on the ground or when the spindle is at the top (like simulating the same as you do for bump steer?
Also on you tie rods, what lengths do you start your tie rods at?
Posted By: 1fastabody
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/24/13 01:07 PM
Quote:
Quote:
How much lighter is the Borgeson over the factory unit ?
Borgeson weighs 22 pounds... Stock, anyone?
I read somewhere that they weighed 37 lbs.(stock) I don't have one to weigh but I think that is close.
Posted By: 1fastabody
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/24/13 01:12 PM
Bergman,
Maybe you can chime in on this, Is there any advantage to going to the larger pitman shaft box?
Posted By: Mopar Mitch
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/24/13 04:02 PM
As good as the swap to a Borgeson box may sound, one thing to consider, for those who care, is that most sanctioned club rules (say, for autocross competition having guidelines of rules), will not allow this swap within certain classes/categories, or else, the swap will end up bumping your car into another class/category.. then.. you have an entire new set of rules to comply with and try to remain competitive with the balance of the class.
This swap would not be legal in the SCCA Solo class/category of E/Street Prepared... and it would be questionably legal in the Street-Mod class/category... but certainly OK in the C/Prepared all-out race class/category. Another club that I'm becoming active in, for hi-speed road-course autocross events/championship series (www.mcscc.org) doesn't allow this type of swap in the class that I plan to run.
In other words, as I've always advised, be ready to accept the consequences. I believe this is a great weight reducer as its prime advantage, and installing the box with the fast-ratio arms would make a huge difference compared to a ps box without the fast-ratio arms, especially for running through tight pylon autocross events.
My current T/A ps box, having the correct pitman and longer idler arms, AND with the Saginaw pump, plus with a reduced diameter steering wheel (mine is 11.5" diameter.. not really too small).. all combines to react very quickly through pylon manuevers, as well as on street/hwy/and road courses. Granted, the heavier weight of the original T/A ps box is there, but that's something that, according to the club "rules"... has to be accepted.
Quote:
Bergman,
Maybe you can chime in on this, Is there any advantage to going to the larger pitman shaft box?
I don't think there is any appreciable different among the 2. It comes down to what you have to start with. If its an A body they have different pitman/idler/centerlink fir each respective box.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/25/13 03:27 AM
Quote:
Bergman,
Maybe you can chime in on this, Is there any advantage to going to the larger pitman shaft box?
the boxes are the same price, but I did notice that if your buying the stock ratio pitman and idler arms, the price for the smaller arms are about double than the ones for the bigger shaft.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/25/13 04:35 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Bergman,
Maybe you can chime in on this, Is there any advantage to going to the larger pitman shaft box?
the boxes are the same price, but I did notice that if your buying the stock ratio pitman and idler arms, the price for the smaller arms are about double than the ones for the bigger shaft.
Yes. The bigger spines are cheaper.
The bigger shaft starts in 1973 and the aftermarket is more likely to carry and have better prices on parts for the newer cars.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 10/25/13 08:24 AM
If you have a small shaft Borgeson powersteering box you can use the pitman arm for a manual box on a '73 A-body.
Posted By: 71rm23
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 11/01/13 06:08 PM
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 11/02/13 02:01 AM
Quote:
Here ya go
the diagram should show where you have to do some clearancing with a die grinder on the box lol
did they ever fix that issue yet?
Posted By: cjskotni
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/22/14 07:22 PM
Does this box require cutting the steering column? I'd be interested in going this route but I am hesitant to butcher my column...
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/22/14 08:40 PM
No it does not, Bergmann above sells everything needed for a bolt in swap.
Posted By: goldduster318
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/23/14 01:19 AM
Here's a photo of the Bergman adapters installed in my A-body. This is with the stock PS pressure line
Posted By: rftroy
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/23/14 01:53 AM
Quote:
Quote:
How much lighter is the Borgeson over the factory unit ?
Borgeson weighs 22 pounds... Stock, anyone?
Just weighed the power steering box from my 70 Roadrunner - accurate shipping scale.
With no pitman arm, hoses, or input shaft coupler:
34lb-10.5oz.
Robert
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/23/14 03:34 AM
Quote:
Does this box require cutting the steering column? I'd be interested in going this route but I am hesitant to butcher my column...
You do if u have a manual column
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/23/14 03:37 AM
Quote:
Here's a photo of the Bergman adapters installed in my A-body. This is with the stock PS pressure line
So stock lines now hook up to the box? I thought u needed adapters
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/23/14 12:15 PM
I ordered a new hose-kit from Borgeson to replace the older and hardened hoses on the car. The kit comes with hoses AND adapters.
The Borg hose-kit (which I bought) only worked with a saginaw pump. I changed over from a Federal pump to the Saginaw, which I had laying around anyway.
Posted By: challenger70
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/23/14 05:27 PM
UGHHH! I just got my stage 3 box back from firm feel, and just read the article in Mopar Action about this (I am a lot behind on magazine reading).
Is there a appreciable difference between the FF stage 3 and this box? Lets say you had a freshly rebuilt FF box, would you still do this swap? What does a complete swap run?
Posted By: Mopar Mitch
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/23/14 05:45 PM
The lighter weight of the Borgeson box is a great plus... 10 pounds here, there.. especially off the front end, all adds up towards a better handling modified vehicle. IF this were "legal" in the club racing rules for the specific classes that I choose to run, which, unfortunately it's not for my present classes (SCCA E/SP, and others), I'd be most interested I doing this swap.
The only down-side I see with the Borgeson box is that the steering turns lock-to-lock (3.5?) is greater than the T/A fast-ratio box (2.7)... and fastest steering is what's needed E/Specially in pylon autocrossing.
Posted By: Viol8r
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/23/14 07:45 PM
Quote:
UGHHH! I just got my stage 3 box back from firm feel, and just read the article in Mopar Action about this (I am a lot behind on magazine reading). Is there a appreciable difference between the FF stage 3 and this box? Lets say you had a freshly rebuilt FF box, would you still do this swap? What does a complete swap run?
We run FF 3 with quick ratio on big tracks and really have no issues at all. I can't imagine the difference is substantial enough to lose sleep over.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/23/14 08:23 PM
Quote:
The only down-side I see with the Borgeson box is that the steering turns lock-to-lock (3.5?) is greater than the T/A fast-ratio box (2.7)... and fastest steering is what's needed E/Specially in pylon autocrossing.
Std power steering is 16:1
T/A quick ratio arm makes it 12.7:1
The Borgeson is 14:1 Which is little quicker than splitting the difference.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/24/14 05:28 AM
Quote:
I ordered a new hose-kit from Borgeson to replace the older and hardened hoses on the car. The kit comes with hoses AND adapters.
The Borg hose-kit (which I bought) only worked with a saginaw pump. I changed over from a Federal pump to the Saginaw, which I had laying around anyway.
thanks for the pic, I gotta check the ones I got, I asked boregson for some lines without using adapters that, ones that bolt to the saginaw pump and their box and they sent me a set, put on the front it says for a late mustang? I haven't gotten around to installing it yet..
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/24/14 10:10 AM
The description of the hose-kit on Summit ( brg-925102 ) says indeed;
"Connects GM power steering pumps to 1979-97 Mustang rack and pinion."
You need to have a Saginaw steeringpump with this kit with it's fitting on the back of the pump.
The Federal (type) pumps are different and the hosekit ends are angled wrong for these pumps aswell.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/24/14 03:44 PM
Doesnt Peter sell the right lines for the Federal pump?
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/24/14 04:01 PM
Probably yes.
At first I just wanted to buy 2 adapters to be able to use my old steeringhoses, but just those adapters were around $70 at Peter's so I just went for a complete new hose-kit from Summit.
For me being overseas it also made financially more sense to buy the Borgeson-parts through a local partsshop which places large orders at Summit to save on shipping.
Posted By: Mopar Mitch
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/24/14 05:22 PM
PLUS... the FEDERAL PUMPS will likely NOT be able to keep up with quick l-r-l-r etc steering response, as we all should know by now. ONLY use the SAGINAW pumps for quick steering response.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/24/14 06:39 PM
Quote:
PLUS... the FEDERAL PUMPS will likely NOT be able to keep up with quick l-r-l-r etc steering response, as we all should know by now. ONLY use the SAGINAW pumps for quick steering response.
see I couldn't remember which one sucked and which one didn't. I have a Saginaw tc pump.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/25/14 05:52 AM
Quote:
The description of the hose-kit on Summit ( brg-925102 ) says indeed;
"Connects GM power steering pumps to 1979-97 Mustang rack and pinion."
You need to have a Saginaw steeringpump with this kit with it's fitting on the back of the pump.
The Federal (type) pumps are different and the hosekit ends are angled wrong for these pumps aswell.
thanks for answering this! I probably have the right kit then, do I still have to buy adapters with this hose kit?
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 01/25/14 11:35 PM
No the hose-kit (925102) already comes with 2 adapters.
I believe the hoses themselves have regular AN-fittings on the steeringbox-side. The adapters have mm-thread on one side and AN on the other.
http://www.borgeson.com/xcart/catalog/P_S_Hose_Kit_GM_Pump_to_7997_Mustang_RP-p-1427.html
Quote:
PLUS... the FEDERAL PUMPS will likely NOT be able to keep up with quick l-r-l-r etc steering response, as we all should know by now. ONLY use the SAGINAW pumps for quick steering response.
Federal has survived many track events, more than most will ever do. Track events and autocross are two different things any way. Personally, I'm not a fan of autocross.
The clear up the hose issue, here are some facts.
1. Adapters are required due to the metric thread in the new box.
2. I make adapters for 69 and down with the smaller male pressure fitting, 70-72 with the larger male pressure fitting. For 73 and up, I included an earlier hose with the proper female end to adapt to the larger 70-72 pressure fitting.
3.Borgeson has hoses, but they are general fit and very stiff. My kit is designed to use your pressure and return hoses for a true bolt in fit.
Any other questions feel free to PM me or contact me directly through my site Bergmanautocraft.com.
Posted By: floridian
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/07/14 04:44 PM
What about using the Borgeson box for street use only?? I hadn't driven my car in a while and was really surprised at how bad the stock steering is...
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/07/14 08:51 PM
It is a good deal in any application if you ask me. Lighter,more compact,excellent feel and better ratio. Only thing it isnt is cheap.
Posted By: Twostick
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/07/14 11:10 PM
True, but if you could buy a brand new mopar box, it wouldn't be cheap either.
Kevin
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/07/14 11:33 PM
Quote:
What about using the Borgeson box for street use only?? I hadn't driven my car in a while and was really surprised at how bad the stock steering is...
I use my Borgeson steering box every day. 100% street use only.
Occassionally I take a drive in one of my other cars and the looseness of the steering is the first thing that occurs to me.
What the Borg-box makes real clear compared to an old steeringbox is that I can now drive around without having to make numerous steering wheel corrections on normally straight roads.
Posted By: Mopar Mitch
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/08/14 10:32 PM
Can anyone here suggest how the tightness of the Borgeson psbox compares to a FirmFeel stage 1-2 or 3 firmness after its been re-conditioned? What level (1-2-3) would it compare to? (I believe Steer'n'Gear offers similar firmness in their re-conditioning, so, we should include them, too.)
Posted By: Tomswheels
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/08/14 10:48 PM
I have the Firm Feel stage 3 on my 69 Barracuda, and it's good, except for the fact there is still some just off center numbness. For Autocrossing it's not ideal. I'm putting the Borgeson in my 67 Valiant because if it's anything like the newer Cherokee it came out of, it will be better...
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/08/14 11:20 PM
Quote:
Can anyone here suggest how the tightness of the Borgeson psbox compares to a FirmFeel stage 1-2 or 3 firmness after its been re-conditioned? What level (1-2-3) would it compare to? (I believe Steer'n'Gear offers similar firmness in their re-conditioning, so, we should include them, too.)
"I have the Firm Feel stage 3 on my 69 Barracuda, and it's good, except for the fact there is still some just off center numbness."
I have the Stage 3 in my Charger. As long as I am turning (The steering under a load) it feels fine. It is the feeling just a few degrees either side of center that I don't like. My 186,000 mile 2007 Ram feels tight as can be at all steering angles. I wish that the FF box felt as good. I'd be more inclined to keep it and forget any other option.
I like what Hotchkis has done to promote their stuff: Having a test vehicle at car events to showcase the capabilities of Mopars with their parts installed. I would LOVE to drive a Borgeson equipped car to know what to expect. Reviews are great but nothing beats feeling it for yourself. If these kits were dirt cheap I'd take the risk without question. I'm not doubting the value of the Borgeson unit, I'm just not willing to spend the cash unless I'm sure I'll like it.
Posted By: ThermoQuad
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/09/14 02:10 PM
Quote:
I have the Firm Feel stage 3 on my 69 Barracuda, and it's good, except for the fact there is still some just off center numbness. For Autocrossing it's not ideal. I'm putting the Borgeson in my 67 Valiant because if it's anything like the newer Cherokee it came out of, it will be better...
Cars that are not reinforced in critical areas will exhibit the "off center numbness" regardless of whose steering box is in the car. The bigger the front tires - the more numbness you will experience under load.
I don't care who redoes the OE box to what firmness. This was a sore spot for me as my suspension was great, but the bottom line is the OE boxes simply suck. I was so happy Borgeson took this on and bought one over a year thinking I was the only one who'd appreciate real steering. A hundred boxes later, I wasn't the only one. It' not cheap, it' not for everyone or every car, but it' on my top 5 best parts to modernize our mopars.
Posted By: goldduster318
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/10/14 03:38 AM
Quote:
I don't care who redoes the OE box to what firmness. This was a sore spot for me as my suspension was great, but the bottom line is the OE boxes simply suck. I was so happy Borgeson took this on and bought one over a year thinking I was the only one who'd appreciate real steering. A hundred boxes later, I wasn't the only one. It' not cheap, it' not for everyone or every car, but it' on my top 5 best parts to modernize our mopars.
I totally agree. One of my favorite mods ever.
Posted By: 74_360_Cuda
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/12/14 05:09 AM
Quote:
I totally agree. One of my favorite mods ever.
X2 
Posted By: Tomswheels
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/12/14 08:34 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I have the Firm Feel stage 3 on my 69 Barracuda, and it's good, except for the fact there is still some just off center numbness. For Autocrossing it's not ideal. I'm putting the Borgeson in my 67 Valiant because if it's anything like the newer Cherokee it came out of, it will be better...
Cars that are not reinforced in critical areas will exhibit the "off center numbness" regardless of whose steering box is in the car. The bigger the front tires - the more numbness you will experience under load.
Perhaps I'm not describing it correctly, but with my Firm Feel stage 3 box occasionally, not every time, you will turn the steering wheel one inch and get nothing, then two inches, nothing, then as you turn the third inch you get 3 inches of input all at once. It ain't tires or a lack of stiffness in the car, it's the steering box. Since it doesn't do it every time, it can make the car a handful in quick transitions. I'm going Borgeson....
Posted By: Trojmn
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/12/14 10:41 PM
lack of assist in quick transitions is usually the pump belt momentarily slipping.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/12/14 10:58 PM
Quote:
Perhaps I'm not describing it correctly, but with my Firm Feel stage 3 box occasionally, not every time, you will turn the steering wheel one inch and get nothing, then two inches, nothing, then as you turn the third inch you get 3 inches of input all at once. It ain't tires or a lack of stiffness in the car, it's the steering box. Since it doesn't do it every time, it can make the car a handful in quick transitions. I'm going Borgeson....
I somewhat recognize this behaviour, but are you really sure that comes from the steeringbox only?
I would think this has more to do with a wheel alignment or maybe a more likely worn idler arm bushing.
One car of mine sometimes shows this behaviour aswell, but I know the wheels aren't aligned properly, along with an old stock powersteering box.
Is the numbness only felt when turning the steeringwheel either to the left, or the right at that time?
If it's only happening at one direction, the linkage could just be busy taking up all the slack in the system first before the actual wheelmovement is happening.
You might be able to test this stationary by checking toe-settings while slightly turning the steeringwheel alternatly left and right, and compare both possible toe-setting differences.
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/13/14 02:57 AM
Stiffening the k frame appears to be the foundation for steering control and repeatability and accurate outputs from a given input from the steering wheel.
The Borgeson box appears to be an improved box with a quicker ratio.
How many with a Borgeson box have a welded up k frame that is up to the same standards as Firm Feel does?
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/13/14 11:00 AM
I still have a stock, unmodified K-member in my '73 Dart.
Since the K-member in my car has been powdercoated at one time, adding reinforcements while mounted in the car is a bit hard to do at the moment.
I do want to gusset the steeringbox mount but that will probably be when I'm ready to an engine swap in the car.
Posted By: 72d100
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/16/14 07:27 PM
i wonder if this can be made work for a truck
Posted By: brads70
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/16/14 08:10 PM
The Delphi steering box is common in circle track racing in various ratio's . Wonder why it is only available in the Mopar application in 14:1?
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/16/14 09:45 PM
I wonder when the first C-body will pop up with a Borgbox under the hood...
Maybe Feets will be looking to improve the steering in his Imperial in time?
Posted By: moparpollack
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/16/14 10:14 PM
Quote:
I wonder when the first C-body will pop up with a Borgbox under the hood...
Maybe Feets will be looking to improve the steering in his Imperial in time?
Isn't an Imperial different than a C body?
Posted By: RylisPro
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/16/14 10:47 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I have the Firm Feel stage 3 on my 69 Barracuda, and it's good, except for the fact there is still some just off center numbness. For Autocrossing it's not ideal. I'm putting the Borgeson in my 67 Valiant because if it's anything like the newer Cherokee it came out of, it will be better...
Cars that are not reinforced in critical areas will exhibit the "off center numbness" regardless of whose steering box is in the car. The bigger the front tires - the more numbness you will experience under load.
I got the FF Stage 2 box and their sector support kit and I definitely have a gap of about 15 degrees on the steering from center left or right before the wheels start to move. I wonder if it is worse because of my steamroller tires? I must say it still feels a lot better than my steering from before!
Posted By: brads70
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/17/14 12:32 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I have the Firm Feel stage 3 on my 69 Barracuda, and it's good, except for the fact there is still some just off center numbness. For Autocrossing it's not ideal. I'm putting the Borgeson in my 67 Valiant because if it's anything like the newer Cherokee it came out of, it will be better...
Cars that are not reinforced in critical areas will exhibit the "off center numbness" regardless of whose steering box is in the car. The bigger the front tires - the more numbness you will experience under load.
I got the FF Stage 2 box and their sector support kit and I definitely have a gap of about 15 degrees on the steering from center left or right before the wheels start to move. I wonder if it is worse because of my steamroller tires? I must say it still feels a lot better than my steering from before!
I have had the stage 3 FF box on for 3 years now. Never an issue yet? I'm about to install much wider rims/tires so maybe I'll notice an issue then?
My K-frame is all re-welded and gussets added for the steering box mount.
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/17/14 12:35 AM
Quote:
Isn't an Imperial different than a C body?
A lot of things are different on those cars but I don't think or see why they would have designed a different steeringbox for such a low production car line. But I'll probably be proven wrong... 
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/17/14 02:21 AM
Quote:
Cars that are not reinforced in critical areas will exhibit the "off center numbness" regardless of whose steering box is in the car. The bigger the front tires - the more numbness you will experience under load.
I got the FF Stage 2 box and their sector support kit and I definitely have a gap of about 15 degrees on the steering from center left or right before the wheels start to move. I wonder if it is worse because of my steamroller tires? I must say it still feels a lot better than my steering from before!
I have a reinforced K member in the Charger, a FF #3 box, 275-40-18 front tires and there is a degree of looseness from 11:00 to 1:00 no matter the adjustment on the top of the steering chuck. This is what I have heard elsewhere. I don't blame the Firm Feel guys. I think that it is due to the actual design of the steering unit itself. It is because of this that I am curious about the Borgeson unit.
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/17/14 04:54 AM
By making small mesh adjustments, I haven't had a Firm Feel rebuilt box that is any different from the Borgeson units. Any slop in the steering is induced by deflection in tires, components or alignments that cause steering center to be off.
FWIW, we have cars with both boxes, we sell neither, so we are about as unbiased as you can get. I just want you guys to have fast cars. If the Firm Feel guys say your box is toast, or you are converting to power form manual, then I would say that Bergman or Borgeson is the way to go. If you car is already a power car, save some coin and rebuilt and adjust what you have. And remember, the mesh is a fine tuning to a larger adjustment.
Posted By: feets
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/18/14 04:38 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I wonder when the first C-body will pop up with a Borgbox under the hood...
Maybe Feets will be looking to improve the steering in his Imperial in time?
Isn't an Imperial different than a C body?
It is different but the steering box is the same.
Posted By: komninon
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/18/14 10:40 PM
we have ordered the borgeson box from bergman auto carft ,their coupler and hose kit. i took out my firmfeel III box with fast ratio pitman arm. hopefully we have it instaled soon , i will let you know if it is worth the money.
Quote:
By making small mesh adjustments, I haven't had a Firm Feel rebuilt box that is any different from the Borgeson units. Any slop in the steering is induced by deflection in tires, components or alignments that cause steering center to be off.
FWIW, we have cars with both boxes, we sell neither, so we are about as unbiased as you can get. I just want you guys to have fast cars. If the Firm Feel guys say your box is toast, or you are converting to power form manual, then I would say that Bergman or Borgeson is the way to go. If you car is already a power car, save some coin and rebuilt and adjust what you have. And remember, the mesh is a fine tuning to a larger adjustment.
Sorry Dan, I have to disagree here...Cannot fight technology on this one....
Posted By: PHJ426
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/20/14 06:44 AM
Quote:
we have ordered the borgeson box from bergman auto carft ,their coupler and hose kit. i took out my firmfeel III box with fast ratio pitman arm. hopefully we have it instaled soon , i will let you know if it is worth the money.
The way this winter is going your going to be test driving your car in May for that report....unless you want to drive it in this salty soupy mess out there.
Posted By: brads70
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/20/14 01:55 PM
Quote:
we have ordered the borgeson box from bergman auto carft ,their coupler and hose kit. i took out my firmfeel III box with fast ratio pitman arm. hopefully we have it instaled soon , i will let you know if it is worth the money.
It will be good/helpful to hear what you find. I have to admit , I'm getting curious now....Just trying to wade through what is hype and what is fact? I have a fairly new FF stage 3 box so I'm in no hurry yet?
Posted By: cudaragtop
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/20/14 05:24 PM
Quote:
we have ordered the borgeson box from bergman auto carft ,their coupler and hose kit. i took out my firmfeel III box with fast ratio pitman arm. hopefully we have it instaled soon , i will let you know if it is worth the money.
Will you be trying the fast ratio arms with the Borg box? I'm interested in what the drivability is like with that combination.
Posted By: Mopar Mitch
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/20/14 09:09 PM
I'm also interested to hear about the Borg'sn box WITH the fast-ratio longer arms (pitman and idler).... for steering response.
I initially also suspect the inside front tires will hit the frame rail more easily.
Aside from the newer technology of the Borg'sn box, in my opinion, the biggest advantage is the lighter weight of it as compared to a factory older ps box.... continuos reduced weight = faster lap times in every respect (accel, decel, cornering).
Posted By: komninon
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/20/14 09:12 PM
i will be using the stock pitman arm with the new box. c
Posted By: brads70
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/20/14 09:59 PM
Quote:
i will be using the stock pitman arm with the new box. c
Bummer....
Posted By: Tomswheels
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/21/14 12:33 AM
Quote:
I'm also interested to hear about the Borg'sn box WITH the fast-ratio longer arms (pitman and idler).... for steering response.
I initially also suspect the inside front tires will hit the frame rail more easily.
Aside from the newer technology of the Borg'sn box, in my opinion, the biggest advantage is the lighter weight of it as compared to a factory older ps box.... continuos reduced weight = faster lap times in every respect (accel, decel, cornering).
I'm putting Fast-Ratio on my 67 Valiant with a welded K-frame and a Borgeson. Parts just arrived, should be up and driving in 3 weeks...
Posted By: cudaragtop
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/21/14 02:09 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I'm also interested to hear about the Borg'sn box WITH the fast-ratio longer arms (pitman and idler).... for steering response.
I initially also suspect the inside front tires will hit the frame rail more easily.
Aside from the newer technology of the Borg'sn box, in my opinion, the biggest advantage is the lighter weight of it as compared to a factory older ps box.... continuos reduced weight = faster lap times in every respect (accel, decel, cornering).
I'm putting Fast-Ratio on my 67 Valiant with a welded K-frame and a Borgeson. Parts just arrived, should be up and driving in 3 weeks...
Sweet!
Posted By: DynoDave
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/21/14 03:30 AM
Quote:
I initially also suspect the inside front tires will hit the frame rail more easily.
As a learning moment for me....why would this be?
Fast ratio arm(s) on a FF box or Borg. box....wouldn't the physical travel of the arm(s) through space be the same (assuming the Borg. box pitman shaft exits the box at the same point in space as the factory / FF box)? You might get there (the frame rails/end of travel) quicker/sooner with the Borg. box due to a faster internal ratio, but wouldn't ultimate travel be the same? 
We're getting dangerously close to the limits of my thinking here... 
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/21/14 05:53 AM
Longer arms=more movement per steering wheel rotation=more movement at the tire per steering wheel rotation.
Posted By: mopardamo
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/21/14 07:45 AM
Hello,
Longer arms mean quicker response and more total throw for the same amount of rotation.
Damon
Posted By: Kern Dog
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/21/14 08:04 AM
You guys are saying the same thing with different words.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/21/14 08:56 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I'm also interested to hear about the Borg'sn box WITH the fast-ratio longer arms (pitman and idler).... for steering response.
I initially also suspect the inside front tires will hit the frame rail more easily.
Aside from the newer technology of the Borg'sn box, in my opinion, the biggest advantage is the lighter weight of it as compared to a factory older ps box.... continuos reduced weight = faster lap times in every respect (accel, decel, cornering).
I'm putting Fast-Ratio on my 67 Valiant with a welded K-frame and a Borgeson. Parts just arrived, should be up and driving in 3 weeks...
interested in this I've heard that it would be too twitchy on the hiway with this setup, but no actual real proof. I bought the stock pitman and idler but did the firm feel roller bearing idler kit instead but I haven't installed them yet, I may just bite the bullet and get the fast ratio arms instead. I figure that it should give a ratio around 2 turns lock to lock? which shouldn't be that bad - I've read that the camaro and firebird guys are getting 1.7 turns lock to lock and they don't seem to have any problems, actually they comment about getting that ratio lower...
Posted By: RylisPro
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/21/14 11:23 AM
I got the fast ratio arms, sector support kit with the FF stage 2 box and it all feels really good!
Posted By: Mopar Mitch
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/21/14 10:21 PM
Dangina -- the "twichyness" will be caused by the alignmemt... if not enough positive caster, then more twitchyness.... Toe out will also welcome it, but IMO... just adapt and re-learn the car's new steering. My steering is quickened, additionally, by a smaller diameter steering wheel (11.5" dia)... driving on the hwy or road courses are no problem.... very enjoyable!... I have no "twitchyness" whatsoever.... steering is very responsive (original never rebuilt T/A ps box, fast rati pitman arm, corrected longer length idler arm).
Another point to consider, is lower/wider profile tires ~50-45-40-35 having their wider/narrower contact patch, vs taller narrower profile tires ~55-60-65-70 having their narrower/longer contact patch. Latitude (cornering) improvemenmts benefit from wide/narrow patches (ie: auto-x/road racer tires), while longitudinal (accel/decel) improvements benefit from narrower/longer patches (ie: dragster rear tires). Steering with a narrower/longer contact patch (55-60-65-70 profiles) carry the car further straight; opposite with lower proflie tires.
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/21/14 11:20 PM
Tom's Borgeson Box showed up today. Once his stuff comes back from powdercoat, It will be going in.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/21/14 11:46 PM
Quote:
Dangina -- the "twichyness" will be caused by the alignmemt... if not enough positive caster, then more twitchyness.... Toe out will also welcome it, but IMO... just adapt and re-learn the car's new steering. My steering is quickened, additionally, by a smaller diameter steering wheel (11.5" dia)... driving on the hwy or road courses are no problem.... very enjoyable!... I have no "twitchyness" whatsoever.... steering is very responsive (original never rebuilt T/A ps box, fast rati pitman arm, corrected longer length idler arm).
Another point to consider, is lower/wider profile tires ~50-45-40-35 having their wider/narrower contact patch, vs taller narrower profile tires ~55-60-65-70 having their narrower/longer contact patch. Latitude (cornering) improvemenmts benefit from wide/narrow patches (ie: auto-x/road racer tires), while longitudinal (accel/decel) improvements benefit from narrower/longer patches (ie: dragster rear tires). Steering with a narrower/longer contact patch (55-60-65-70 profiles) carry the car further straight; opposite with lower proflie tires.
Thanks mitch for the insight, you just made my decision easier ordered a set today. Worse case scenario if it seems like too much, I put the stock ones back in
*edit* talked to matt at firm feel, says I can use their idler bearing roller kit with this setup, best of both worlds
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/23/14 10:01 PM
Quote:
I still have a stock, unmodified K-member in my '73 Dart.
Since the K-member in my car has been powdercoated at one time, adding reinforcements while mounted in the car is a bit hard to do at the moment.
I do want to gusset the steeringbox mount but that will probably be when I'm ready to an engine swap in the car.
Just out of the blue I decided to add a simple plate to gusset and reinforce the steeringbox-mount a little better.
I made the plate large enough to reach the areas where I could still easily clean the powder coating off the member with an angle grinder.
I also welded a plate across the bottoms of the LCA's and welded the tierod sleeves in the centers.
When I took the car for a spin after this I tought I could feel the steering felt a bit tighter and more direct. But the improvement was much yet.
Posted By: Pool Fixer
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/28/14 01:17 AM
I just ordered a borgeson box and qa1 kmember along with qa1 LCA's... wondering if I will have to clearance the box for the qa1 kmember?
Posted By: Pool Fixer
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/28/14 04:16 AM
Summit
Posted By: sublimehemi
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/28/14 10:54 AM
Quote:
I just ordered a borgeson box and qa1 kmember along with qa1 LCA's... wondering if I will have to clearance the box for the qa1 kmember?
mine fit good no grindage
Posted By: Pool Fixer
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 02/28/14 02:34 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I just ordered a borgeson box and qa1 kmember along with qa1 LCA's... wondering if I will have to clearance the box for the qa1 kmember?
mine fit good no grindage
Thanks! another question: I installed the SD concepts serpentine conversion on my 440 so I'm running a 99 grand cherokee power steering pump. Not sure what hoses/fittings I'll need.
Posted By: cudaragtop
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/19/14 07:56 AM
Quote:
I'm putting Fast-Ratio on my 67 Valiant with a welded K-frame and a Borgeson. Parts just arrived, should be up and driving in 3 weeks...
Just checking to see if you got it installed yet... 
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/19/14 03:57 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I'm putting Fast-Ratio on my 67 Valiant with a welded K-frame and a Borgeson. Parts just arrived, should be up and driving in 3 weeks...
Just checking to see if you got it installed yet...
Nope. We are still waiting for some other parts to come in.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/20/14 06:49 PM
Curious, installed the box today. Rotated the box to find center (almost 4 turns) I was wondering about half way, you can feel some resistance (for about half a turn) then its easy peasy again. Is this normal? Mind you this is just the steering column hooked up to the box. I haven't installed the pitman arm or any ps hoses.
Perfectly normal. The "high spot" is tight. When centered the flat faces the driver side frame rail.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/22/14 03:11 AM
Quote:
Perfectly normal. The "high spot" is tight. When centered the flat faces the driver side frame rail.
great thanks! your coupler is the cats meow
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/26/14 11:41 PM
Question about reinstallng the pitman arm on this box, I put on the arm, only half the threads on the arm are engaged, I tightened the nut on first to get more engagement but when I take it off and put the lock nut and nut back on im just barly flush with the bottom of the steering box shaft. Is this normal?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/27/14 12:25 AM
I think I might have been a tad past flush. I used my original arm too. It will only go so far before the torque spec is met.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/27/14 01:20 AM
Quote:
I think I might have been a tad past flush. I used my original arm too. It will only go so far before the torque spec is met.
using the fast ratio arm I guess as long as I get my 175lbs of torque? Right now its not quite flush. I need a bigger torque wrench...
Posted By: brads70
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/27/14 01:39 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I think I might have been a tad past flush. I used my original arm too. It will only go so far before the torque spec is met.
using the fast ratio arm I guess as long as I get my 175lbs of torque? Right now its not quite flush. I need a bigger torque wrench...
Got any pictures? The position of that arm affects bumpsteer.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/27/14 02:42 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think I might have been a tad past flush. I used my original arm too. It will only go so far before the torque spec is met.
using the fast ratio arm I guess as long as I get my 175lbs of torque? Right now its not quite flush. I need a bigger torque wrench...
Got any pictures? The position of that arm affects bumpsteer.
I agree that it could if it was way out of whack. There really isnt a remedy to press that arm on any further short of hydraulic press and possibly splitting it. He has an aftermarket arm and the tolerances may be Chinese. I will go out and take a pic of mine.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/27/14 06:01 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I think I might have been a tad past flush. I used my original arm too. It will only go so far before the torque spec is met.
using the fast ratio arm I guess as long as I get my 175lbs of torque? Right now its not quite flush. I need a bigger torque wrench...
Got any pictures? The position of that arm affects bumpsteer.
I'll take a pic, I tried centering the wheels and the ps box before i put on the pitman arm. how does it affect bumpsteer?
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/27/14 10:48 AM
If not seated properly it could cause the centerlink to be out of parallel with the car, causing uneven linkage motion.
I've got one or 2 threads showing.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/28/14 04:42 AM
took a quick pic - I pulled it off, repositioned it and put it on 3 times and got the same results every time so screw it, I got my 175lbs of torque on it, its not going anywhere
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/28/14 08:13 AM
Quote:
took a quick pic - I pulled it off, repositioned it and put it on 3 times and got the same results every time so screw it, I got my 175lbs of torque on it, its not going anywhere
Quote:
I'm not liking the difference between these two pictures both with Borgeson Boxes.
I know of another Borgeson that the installer said it put the pitman in a different place and the centrelink was not parallel. I thought it was an anomaly with that car or pitman, but what dangina has posted has me wondering what is going on. 
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/28/14 09:04 AM
Quote:
I'm not liking the difference between these two pictures both with Borgeson Boxes.
I know of another Borgeson that the installer said it put the pitman in a different place and the centrelink was not parallel. I thought it was an anomaly with that car or pitman, but what dangina has posted has me wondering what is going on.
The fast ratio arm has no center link like the old pitman had. I can't remember who the other poster on here said they were gonna run a fast ratio on their boregson, I wondered how his turned out?
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/28/14 09:53 AM
Quote:
Quote:
I'm not liking the difference between these two pictures both with Borgeson Boxes.
I know of another Borgeson that the installer said it put the pitman in a different place and the centrelink was not parallel. I thought it was an anomaly with that car or pitman, but what dangina has posted has me wondering what is going on.
The fast ratio arm has no center link like the old pitman had. I can't remember who the other poster on here said they were gonna run a fast ratio on their boregson, I wondered how his turned out?
I meant this being the centerlink:
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/28/14 10:17 AM
For everyone's info, I have a small sector Borg-Box and used (I recall) a '72 manual steering pitman.
This might explain the difference in the nut's thread-engagement.
Posted By: brads70
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/28/14 01:32 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I'm not liking the difference between these two pictures both with Borgeson Boxes.
I know of another Borgeson that the installer said it put the pitman in a different place and the centrelink was not parallel. I thought it was an anomaly with that car or pitman, but what dangina has posted has me wondering what is going on.
The fast ratio arm has no center link like the old pitman had. I can't remember who the other poster on here said they were gonna run a fast ratio on their boregson, I wondered how his turned out?
Are you referring to the master spline in the arm? I'm not liking the looks of that either? Does the center link sit parallel and flat in both axis? It appears the splines are not cut deep enough on the shaft in the steering box? Looks like they got it right on the small sector shaft box but the large one needs a little "tweaking" ? Fast ratio or standard, small or large sector shaft, they should both sit in the same position on the steering box.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/28/14 02:32 PM
I would question the aftermarket pitman arm before throwing the box under the bus.
Posted By: 1fastabody
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/28/14 02:42 PM
Do you have the old pitman arm or another pitman arm that you can try? This would take the pitman arm out of the question. I know a lot of these replacement parts are machined over seas and the quality control is not that great.
Posted By: brads70
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/28/14 02:45 PM
Quote:
I would question the aftermarket pitman arm before throwing the box under the bus.
Good point I assumed he just replaced the box with an existing set up.
Posted By: autoxcuda
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/28/14 06:03 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I would question the aftermarket pitman arm before throwing the box under the bus.
Good point I assumed he just replaced the box with an existing set up.
I agree. And Dangina is using a Quick Ratio pitman arm that is a low volume speciality item, not a bread and butter pitman that fits 1/4 million cars like the regular ratio one. But I would like to figure what is going on because this is the second time I've heard of this from someone using the box.
I believe what determines the up and down position of the pitman is the taper in the splines. There is not a definitive land/shelf than the pitman hits. It's just the interference between the straight splines in the pitman against he taper of the splines at the end of the steering sector shaft.
IMHO, it's a machining feature that is a little tough to check.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/28/14 06:28 PM
Quote:
Do you have the old pitman arm or another pitman arm that you can try? This would take the pitman arm out of the question. I know a lot of these replacement parts are machined over seas and the quality control is not that great.
I can try the old pitman I guess. I've just wasted enough time and effort with this that I really don't want to pull it all apart and put it back together 2 more times lol
sorry about the confusion of the centerlink, I meant their are no master splines on the arm, I kinda wished they did though, I had a fast ratio arm for another car from PST and it didn't have any master splines on it as well, this one I have now is from firm feel
I had also tried it on without attaching to the centerlink, same results
I am using the bigger sector box for reference
Posted By: 1fastabody
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/28/14 07:22 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Do you have the old pitman arm or another pitman arm that you can try? This would take the pitman arm out of the question. I know a lot of these replacement parts are machined over seas and the quality control is not that great.
I can try the old pitman I guess. I've just wasted enough time and effort with this that I really don't want to pull it all apart and put it back together 2 more times lol
sorry about the confusion of the centerlink, I meant their are no master splines on the arm, I kinda wished they did though, I had a fast ratio arm for another car from PST and it didn't have any master splines on it as well, this one I have now is from firm feel
I had also tried it on without attaching to the centerlink, same results
I am using the bigger sector box for reference
If you don't want to install the old one you can use some calipers and measure the major diameter of the I.D. splines and then compare old pitman to new pitman. You can also do this on the box but you will have to measure from the end of the threads to a given point and measure both sector shafts the same.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/28/14 09:28 PM
ok to avoid future confusion, I pulled off the arm and attached the brand new moog arm I was gonna use, did not hook up to the center link and it was...worse. in the pic you can see that without the lock nut on I can only get it on this far:
I put the fast ratio back on and without the locknut I can get this far:
Posted By: 1fastabody
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/28/14 10:04 PM
So you definitely have a issue with the splines on your box. I would call Borgeson and ask about this issue. That Moog pitman arm would not even work with the lock washer. Not sure if I missed it, was this a large sector box or small?
Posted By: brads70
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/28/14 10:32 PM
That sucks! Anyone else with the big sector shaft have this issue? I ask as I was/am considering one with the larger sector shaft to go with my fast ratio arms too. Hopefully this is an isolated issue?
Posted By: jcc
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/28/14 11:30 PM
So we are assuming this spline engagement issue is causing an un correctable bump steer issue?
Posted By: brads70
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/29/14 01:02 AM
Quote:
So we are assuming this spline engagement issue is causing an un correctable bump steer issue?
I will say the 1/8th or so will effect bump steer, not saying it's a huge amount. I'm just thinking of my setup . I found moving the inner tie rod 1/8th did affect bump steer by about .020"( moving the outer tie rod had more effect) I also found you can't move the inner tire rod much as it hits the torsion bars.(Dangina I'd double check this!) I'm using 1.120" All the hours I spent getting it to where I did I would want the arm to mount in the same spot as my original box. I found Stock e bodys have ( mine was anyway?) about 3/4-1" of bump steer in 3 inches of compression travel. So with 99% of E/B body's out there will .020" make much difference? Nope... I'm just concerned with mine as I'm considering buying one of these boxes. I hear A body's do not suffer from the same issue though. I don't know for sure as I've never worked on one?
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/29/14 01:13 AM
Probably worth mentioning is that on my '73 Dart, with the stock powersteering box, the inner pass.side tie-rod grease zerk was hitting the torsion bar.
I had to put some shim/washers behind the steeringbox on both upper boltholes to make it clear the torsionbar.
Now with the Borg-box and slightly thicker 1" torsion bars, the tie-rod zerks clear the bars just fine without any mods.
Posted By: brads70
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/29/14 01:25 AM
Just a thought... you could put a bigger chamfer on the top of the arm and that would allow it to move higher up on the shaft?
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/29/14 03:10 AM
Quote:
Just a thought... you could put a bigger chamfer on the top of the arm and that would allow it to move higher up on the shaft?
Would a machine shop be able to do this? Now the 90$ arm is worth $200! I emailed boregson. Hopefully then can give me a proper answer. When I bought the box they havent fixed the clearance issue. You still have to grind a little on the box. But I can report 2 full turns lock to lock!
Posted By: jcc
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/29/14 04:12 AM
Quote:
Quote:
So we are assuming this spline engagement issue is causing an un correctable bump steer issue?
I will say the 1/8th or so will effect bump steer, not saying it's a huge amount. I'm just thinking of my setup . I found moving the inner tie rod 1/8th did affect bump steer by about .020"( moving the outer tie rod had more effect) I also found you can't move the inner tire rod much as it hits the torsion bars.(Dangina I'd double check this!) I'm using 1.120" All the hours I spent getting it to where I did I would want the arm to mount in the same spot as my original box. I found Stock e bodys have ( mine was anyway?) about 3/4-1" of bump steer in 3 inches of compression travel. So with 99% of E/B body's out there will .020" make much difference? Nope... I'm just concerned with mine as I'm considering buying one of these boxes. I hear A body's do not suffer from the same issue though. I don't know for sure as I've never worked on one?
Maybe somewhat hidden in my question, do we know how correct the bumpsteer is before this new issue, or could the 1/8" actually improve matters, strictly by chance?
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 03/29/14 05:13 AM
Quote:
Quote:
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So we are assuming this spline engagement issue is causing an un correctable bump steer issue?
I will say the 1/8th or so will effect bump steer, not saying it's a huge amount. I'm just thinking of my setup . I found moving the inner tie rod 1/8th did affect bump steer by about .020"( moving the outer tie rod had more effect) I also found you can't move the inner tire rod much as it hits the torsion bars.(Dangina I'd double check this!) I'm using 1.120" All the hours I spent getting it to where I did I would want the arm to mount in the same spot as my original box. I found Stock e bodys have ( mine was anyway?) about 3/4-1" of bump steer in 3 inches of compression travel. So with 99% of E/B body's out there will .020" make much difference? Nope... I'm just concerned with mine as I'm considering buying one of these boxes. I hear A body's do not suffer from the same issue though. I don't know for sure as I've never worked on one?
Maybe somewhat hidden in my question, do we know how correct the bumpsteer is before this new issue, or could the 1/8" actually improve matters, strictly by chance?
I actually bought the bumpsteer setup from longacre, finally get the chance today put it on and check what I'm at, and the kit they sent me is just a blank plate. I'll have to drill out the hub and 5x4.5" holes myself on my days off which unfortunatly is not until mid next week. If its not one thing its another...
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/01/14 12:27 AM
can anyone with a large sector installed chime in? still no word from boregson.
Posted By: pro451bee
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/01/14 05:43 AM
Try some grease on the splines and nut/washer
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/01/14 07:31 AM
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Try some grease on the splines and nut/washer
there's quite a bit of anti-seize on there already
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/01/14 03:52 PM
got a reply back from boregson tech:
"You’ve got enough engagement between the nut and shaft to be safe. It may be just a thicker Pitman arm."
what do you think? I sent him a reply back saying the stock moog pitman had even less thread engagement, I also linked him this thread to read so he saw the problems I've been facing
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/01/14 03:58 PM
I'll mock up the one I have today with our Q/R arms and post some results.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/01/14 06:18 PM
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I'll mock up the one I have today with our Q/R arms and post some results.
thanks dan, appreciate it!
Posted By: brads70
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/01/14 06:36 PM
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I'll mock up the one I have today with our Q/R arms and post some results.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/01/14 11:12 PM
FWIW my small spline is just like the one pictured above.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/03/14 01:27 AM
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FWIW my small spline is just like the one pictured above.
which pic?
hey dan did you get around to installing the pitman on yet?
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/03/14 03:19 AM
BigBlockMopars pic.
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/03/14 06:25 AM
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FWIW my small spline is just like the one pictured above.
which pic?
hey dan did you get around to installing the pitman on yet?
Been buried with stuff today, just got to it. Unfortunately, large sector box, small sector pitman.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/03/14 07:03 PM
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Been buried with stuff today, just got to it. Unfortunately, large sector box, small sector pitman.
doh! was hoping to get the bottom of this
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/05/14 11:27 PM
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can anyone with a large sector installed chime in? still no word from boregson.
Bumping this question again. No reply back from boregson
Posted By: brads70
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/06/14 01:02 AM
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can anyone with a large sector installed chime in? still no word from boregson.
Bumping this question again. No reply back from boregson
Not cool!
Wonder if Dan got to try his out yet? It was his birthday a couple days ago and he has been busy at the autocross track. So he has been busy! Dan how is the new engine?
Posted By: Dan@Hotchkis
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/07/14 03:26 PM
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can anyone with a large sector installed chime in? still no word from boregson.
Bumping this question again. No reply back from boregson
Not cool!
Wonder if Dan got to try his out yet? It was his birthday a couple days ago and he has been busy at the autocross track. So he has been busy! Dan how is the new engine?
I don't even want to talk about that. The machinist is coming to the shop to make a housecall today. I put the Road Runner in the back of the shop and put a car cover on it Friday. Co-Drove the R&D 65 Mustang at the SCCA National Tour over the weekend. Road Runner will most likely not be making it to Vegas this year.
As to the sector/arm issue, I'll see if I can get something figured out this week.
Posted By: brads70
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/07/14 04:54 PM
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can anyone with a large sector installed chime in? still no word from boregson.
Bumping this question again. No reply back from boregson
Not cool!
Wonder if Dan got to try his out yet? It was his birthday a couple days ago and he has been busy at the autocross track. So he has been busy! Dan how is the new engine?
I don't even want to talk about that. The machinist is coming to the shop to make a housecall today. I put the Road Runner in the back of the shop and put a car cover on it Friday. Co-Drove the R&D 65 Mustang at the SCCA National Tour over the weekend. Road Runner will most likely not be making it to Vegas this year.
As to the sector/arm issue, I'll see if I can get something figured out this week.
yuck not fun! Been there...
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/07/14 07:14 PM
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can anyone with a large sector installed chime in? still no word from boregson.
Bumping this question again. No reply back from boregson
Not cool!
Wonder if Dan got to try his out yet? It was his birthday a couple days ago and he has been busy at the autocross track. So he has been busy! Dan how is the new engine?
I don't even want to talk about that. The machinist is coming to the shop to make a housecall today. I put the Road Runner in the back of the shop and put a car cover on it Friday. Co-Drove the R&D 65 Mustang at the SCCA National Tour over the weekend. Road Runner will most likely not be making it to Vegas this year.
As to the sector/arm issue, I'll see if I can get something figured out this week.
What did you put together for an engine Dan?
Posted By: Uhcoog1
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/07/14 07:31 PM
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can anyone with a large sector installed chime in? still no word from boregson.
Bumping this question again. No reply back from boregson
I've got the large sector. Don't remember which brand pitman I put on it, but it's a regular auto parts store part.
My engagement isn't much better than yours. I believe I had to thread the nut without the washer, cinch it up, pulled it off, then barely got the nut to thread with the lock washer. The shaft doesn't make it out of the nut on mine. Shouldn't be a safety issue, as it hasn't moved in 6 track days. Ya'll have me curious now if it could cause any bumpsteer issues.
Posted By: 72Swinger
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/07/14 07:48 PM
Maybe the issue is simply not enough threads? FWIW my small spline box has 1" of threads and the stock pitman is between 11/16 and 3/4" thick.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/08/14 12:49 AM
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can anyone with a large sector installed chime in? still no word from boregson.
Bumping this question again. No reply back from boregson
I've got the large sector. Don't remember which brand pitman I put on it, but it's a regular auto parts store part.
My engagement isn't much better than yours. I believe I had to thread the nut without the washer, cinch it up, pulled it off, then barely got the nut to thread with the lock washer. The shaft doesn't make it out of the nut on mine. Shouldn't be a safety issue, as it hasn't moved in 6 track days. Ya'll have me curious now if it could cause any bumpsteer issues.
Thanks for the reply - I had to do the exact same thing put nut on first, cinch it up, then pull it off to put the lock washer and nut back on. You can see in mine that the nut also doesn't make it all the way through, just glad to here that I'm not the only one, should have went with small sector, looks like the better fit
Posted By: brads70
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/08/14 03:31 AM
I's sure like to see this sorted out? Looks like I'll keep my FF box for another season at least.
Posted By: moparAL
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/08/14 08:55 AM
I have read all the comments. I was curious and decided to call Borgesons customer service department and ask some questions about the issues described. The Borgeson employee was quote "unaware of the k member interference issue" and "unaware of the newest mentioned problem of the large shaft pitman arm washer, nut, fit". Very curious, not good. She said she would call me back, surprise, she did not! Its great that members are trying to fix this issue themselves but its the manufactures responsibility to own up to and fix problems like this quickly. Moparts members call Borgeson 860-482-8283 for your fellow Moparts members that have bought this product and lets fix the problem.
Posted By: 1fastabody
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/16/14 02:28 PM
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can anyone with a large sector installed chime in? still no word from boregson.
Bumping this question again. No reply back from boregson
Did you ever hear back?
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/17/14 02:03 AM
never heard back - seeing how the only other person with a big sector experinced the same problem it looks like it might be that way for all of them. Lesson here: buy the small sector
Posted By: 1fastabody
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/17/14 02:24 PM
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never heard back - seeing how the only other person with a big sector experinced the same problem it looks like it might be that way for all of them. Lesson here: buy the small sector
Well that sucks that they never responded, not good customer service. They could have at least sent a email saying they would look into it.
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/17/14 03:36 PM
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never heard back - seeing how the only other person with a big sector experinced the same problem it looks like it might be that way for all of them. Lesson here: buy the small sector
Well that sucks that they never responded, not good customer service. They could have at least sent a email saying they would look into it.
he only did that one time and said I had enough thread engagement, maybe they think its not an issue worth looking into?
Posted By: BigBlockMopar
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/17/14 03:42 PM
Any chance that the large sector pitman-arms are slightly thicker in height perhaps?
I recall having used a manual steering pitman arm from a Dodge which fit the smallsector Borgbox nicely.
This mockup pic is with the pitman arm just pushed on the splines by hand;
Posted By: floridian
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/17/14 04:19 PM
OK, dumb question here...
Small sector 67 and older
large sector 68 and newer. Is this correct??
The small sector steering arms are about double in price last time I had to buy one..
Again assuming my question is correct, I would buy a large sector box to upgrade newer in my car.. Just my opinion
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/17/14 10:53 PM
i believe the small sectors were available up to 72? My 71 runner came with a small sector. The large sector is what the aftermarket supports and its cheaper if your buying stock pitman/idler arms. If your buying fast ratio arms or upgrading to the boregson box the price is even for both sizes
Posted By: dangina
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/17/14 10:55 PM
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Any chance that the large sector pitman-arms are slightly thicker in height perhaps?
I recall having used a manual steering pitman arm from a Dodge which fit the smallsector Borgbox nicely.
This mockup pic is with the pitman arm just pushed on the splines by hand;
for some reason the small sectors have no problems, I could check the thickness of the arms later,
curious if they are thicker, is there any harm in machining them down?
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OK, dumb question here...
Small sector 67 and older
large sector 68 and newer. Is this correct??
The small sector steering arms are about double in price last time I had to buy one..
Again assuming my question is correct, I would buy a large sector box to upgrade newer in my car.. Just my opinion
73 and up is large sector.
For A bodies, a swap to large sector requires an idler and center link too.
Posted By: floridian
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/18/14 03:42 PM
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OK, dumb question here...
Small sector 67 and older
large sector 68 and newer. Is this correct??
The small sector steering arms are about double in price last time I had to buy one..
Again assuming my question is correct, I would buy a large sector box to upgrade newer in my car.. Just my opinion
73 and up is large sector.
For A bodies, a swap to large sector requires an idler and center link too.
So sector size equates to diameter of shaft? Correct??
Posted By: brads70
Re: Borgeson Stering Box - 04/20/14 05:05 AM
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OK, dumb question here...
Small sector 67 and older
large sector 68 and newer. Is this correct??
The small sector steering arms are about double in price last time I had to buy one..
Again assuming my question is correct, I would buy a large sector box to upgrade newer in my car.. Just my opinion
73 and up is large sector.
For A bodies, a swap to large sector requires an idler and center link too.
So sector size equates to diameter of shaft? Correct??
Yep.