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Engine masters playing with the numbers????? DELETED #1517621 10/14/13 09:16 PM 10/14/13 09:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,776 Ontario Canada M MattW OP master
MattW OP master M Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,776 Ontario Canada	Post deleted by MattW Last edited by MattW; 10/14/13 09:54 PM.

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: MattW] #1517622 10/14/13 09:27 PM 10/14/13 09:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,931 United Socialist States of Ame... T tboomer Too Many Posts
tboomer Too Many Posts T Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 25,931 United Socialist States of Ame...	Details Matt? If it is true,I don't know why this thread would be pulled... Need your rear end checked out? Contact Grizzly!!

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: tboomer] #1517623 10/14/13 10:05 PM 10/14/13 10:05 PM
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,776 Ontario Canada M MattW OP master
MattW OP master M Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,776 Ontario Canada	Just wanted to acknowledge that the numbers are posted are not realistic at all. Especially Mondays #'s

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: MattW] #1517624 10/14/13 10:44 PM 10/14/13 10:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio S Sport440 master
Sport440 master S Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,591 Canton, Ohio	Who won it? and what was the combo.

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: Sport440] #1517625 10/15/13 09:38 AM 10/15/13 09:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,776 Ontario Canada M MattW OP master
MattW OP master M Joined: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,776 Ontario Canada	Jon Kaase with a Ford modular engine.

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: MattW] #1517626 10/15/13 11:17 AM 10/15/13 11:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually B BradH Taking time off to work on my car
BradH Taking time off to work on my car B Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually	Quote: Just wanted to acknowledge that the numbers are posted are not realistic at all. Especially Mondays #'s I'll be the first to admit that the EMC scoring system confuses me, but what's the basis for claiming the #s aren't realistic? Are you insinuating "happy" dynos, or that the scores don't align with the reported results, or... ?

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: BradH] #1517627 10/15/13 11:34 AM 10/15/13 11:34 AM
Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,051 The Great White North RAMM super stock
RAMM super stock Joined: Feb 2006 Posts: 1,051 The Great White North	I would have to look at how many ft/lbs per cube was produced to detect any unrealistic results. J.Rob 2009 PHR\EMC Competitor 2010 PHR\EMC Competitor 2011 PHR\EMC Competitor 2012 PHR\EMC Competitor 2013 PHR\EMC Competitor 2014 HotRod/EMC Competitor 2015 HotRod/EMC NoShow 2016 HotRod/EMC 3rd place SPEC Bigblock 2018 HotRod/EMC 7th place G3

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: RAMM] #1517628 10/15/13 11:40 AM 10/15/13 11:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually B BradH Taking time off to work on my car
BradH Taking time off to work on my car B Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually	Jesse - Did you have any questions re: either the dyno results or scores from your entry this year? I was thinking your score would be higher after seeing the peak HP & torque #s reported, but -- like I said above -- I don't know how the scoring system works.

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: BradH] #1517629 10/15/13 01:12 PM 10/15/13 01:12 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 20,179 Park Forest, IL slantzilla Too Many Posts
slantzilla Too Many Posts Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 20,179 Park Forest, IL	Quote: I'll be the first to admit that the EMC scoring system confuses me, I saw the scoring system on Yellowbullet. The way it works it seems you can actually make the most power and still not get the highest score. I think the syatem was designed by the same guy who came up with the CIC system for Comp Eliminator. "Everybody funny, now you funny too."

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: slantzilla] #1517630 10/15/13 02:35 PM 10/15/13 02:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,037 Oregon A AndyF I Win
AndyF I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,037 Oregon	It is a "power under the curve" type of measurement not "peak power". Getting the engine to make power down low is the trick. I saw a picture of the headers that Kaase was using this year. 8 tubes on each side for a 8-4-2-1 header system. Guess that was what he needed to do to fill in the hole in the torque curve down low.

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: AndyF] #1517631 10/15/13 04:25 PM 10/15/13 04:25 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually B BradH Taking time off to work on my car
BradH Taking time off to work on my car B Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 15,439 Val-haul-ass... eventually	Quote: It is a "power under the curve" type of measurement not "peak power". Makes me think they ought to take it to the next level of "Theoretical Racing" and have all the competitors input their actual EMC dyno results into a drag simlulation package w/ spec gears, weight, tire size, etc. and see who the 'puter says is the quickest & fastest down the simulation track.

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: AndyF] #1517632 10/15/13 04:50 PM 10/15/13 04:50 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 17,918 Akron, Ohio ProSport I Live Here
ProSport I Live Here Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 17,918 Akron, Ohio	Quote: 8 tubes on each side for a 8-4-2-1 header system So is he gonna install it in a car like that? I only look at combo's that consistantly go down the track and lay down impressive times. I see so many strange things these days with flow numbers, dyno shootouts, and engine building contests. 1970 Challenger, all aluminum 528 Hemi, HDK suspension, Tremec 5 speed manual

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: ProSport] #1517633 10/16/13 01:40 PM 10/16/13 01:40 PM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt. H HotRodDave I Live Here
HotRodDave I Live Here H Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt.	I don't understand all the negativity toward the engine builder contests it is supposed to be a friendly competition to determine the best engine builder/best engines with out the variable of chassis and drive-line and track prep... just gets you an idea where to go when you want a good engine or the best engine or a good engine on a budget... Maybe there should be a chassis competition where they take identical engines and pass them out to chassis builders and see who can make it run the fastest down the track On the 8 4 2 1 headers on one side of the engine, it is because they have two exhaust valves on each port. I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: HotRodDave] #1517634 10/16/13 01:58 PM 10/16/13 01:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2013 Posts: 345 Nebraska 4 451Cuda enthusiast
451Cuda enthusiast 4 Joined: Apr 2013 Posts: 345 Nebraska	Quote: I don't understand all the negativity toward the engine builder contests it is supposed to be a friendly competition to determine the best engine builder/best engines with out the variable of chassis and drive-line and track prep... just gets you an idea where to go when you want a good engine or the best engine or a good engine on a budget... Maybe there should be a chassis competition where they take identical engines and pass them out to chassis builders and see who can make it run the fastest down the track On the 8 4 2 1 headers on one side of the engine, it is because they have two exhaust valves on each port. These contests are major PR for engine builders - their livelihoods depend on a solid reputation of making big power. Might be a friendly competition for the little guy hobbyists, but it's serious business for big name builders.

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: HotRodDave] #1517635 10/16/13 02:08 PM 10/16/13 02:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 970 Backwater, PA B bwdst6 Bob George Racing #1 Fan
bwdst6 Bob George Racing #1 Fan B Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 970 Backwater, PA	Quote: I don't understand all the negativity toward the engine builder contests It�s the scoring! Taking the area under the HP curve is misleading. If you run an engine where you set the transbrake at 5000 off the line and shift at 7000-8000 then mostly what you care about is how much power you�re producing around your shift point. I would hope they are also making allowances for engine displacement. This post is available in double vision where drunk.

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: bwdst6] #1517636 10/16/13 03:10 PM 10/16/13 03:10 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,037 Oregon A AndyF I Win
AndyF I Win A Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 31,037 Oregon	It isn't an engine contest for drag race motors that leave off a transbrake. If you look at the rules you'll see that it is aimed at a totally different application than that.

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: bwdst6] #1517637 10/16/13 03:22 PM 10/16/13 03:22 PM
Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 11,684 W. Kentucky justinp61 I Live Here
justinp61 I Live Here Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 11,684 W. Kentucky	Quote: Quote: I don't understand all the negativity toward the engine builder contests It�s the scoring! Taking the area under the HP curve is misleading. If you run an engine where you set the transbrake at 5000 off the line and shift at 7000-8000 then mostly what you care about is how much power you�re producing around your shift point. I would hope they are also making allowances for engine displacement. What about all the guys that foot brake?

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: justinp61] #1517638 10/16/13 04:52 PM 10/16/13 04:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 970 Backwater, PA B bwdst6 Bob George Racing #1 Fan
bwdst6 Bob George Racing #1 Fan B Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 970 Backwater, PA	Quote: Quote: Quote: I don't understand all the negativity toward the engine builder contests It�s the scoring! Taking the area under the HP curve is misleading. If you run an engine where you set the transbrake at 5000 off the line and shift at 7000-8000 then mostly what you care about is how much power you�re producing around your shift point. I would hope they are also making allowances for engine displacement. What about all the guys that foot brake? Torque Converters do flash! And if you want a better ET you should be closer to your power band for the most possible time! All forms of competitive motor sports have the competitors working to keep their engines as close to the power band as possible. Last time I checked Formula 1 produced peak power at 19,000 (although they are currently limited to 18,000) so guess where they are operating most of the time? NASCAR, even with the tighter restrictions make peak power around 9,000 so during a typical race these engines continuously cycle between about 7,000 and 10,000. The most accurate way I know of to compare engine performance is �Brake Mean Effective Pressure�. I�m not going to explain it because I�m lazy (plus I don't really care too much) but this site explains it pretty well. http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/bmep_performance_yardstick.htm Last edited by bwdst6; 10/16/13 05:37 PM.

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: bwdst6] #1517639 10/16/13 06:01 PM 10/16/13 06:01 PM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt. H HotRodDave I Live Here
HotRodDave I Live Here H Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 12,419 Kalispell Mt.	they are supposed to be street strip motors, hence the rules with limited RPM Compression and pump gas as well as scoring them through the curve, a street motor needs TQ at lower RPM or it is no fun I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!

Re: Engine masters playing with the numbers!!!!!! [Re: HotRodDave] #1517640 10/16/13 09:16 PM 10/16/13 09:16 PM
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 506 Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc. D DakFink mopar
DakFink mopar D Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 506 Texas Afghanistan Iraq etc.	There you go!! I have been watching EMC since day 1. It has always been about Streetable Pump Gas engines. NOT RACE ENGINES. Originally the power curves measured on the dyno was from 2000 to 6000 rpms. 2 yrs ago they moved it up to 3000-7000 for the Unlimited class. This year it was for everyone. It pretty much falls in line of, how much power per cubic inch. you have 2 engines that make 700hp and 1 is a 350 and the other is a 440. The 350 takes the win. Granted they make it a little more complicated than that with their formulas BUT that is the bare basics. Because if you had 2 350's that made 700hp you would need a way to determine which was more street and pump gas friendly. In years past 2 things I do remember about some engines that Kasse built. 1. He stated at tear down that he had less money in parts and more in Time and Labor than any of the other engines he beat that year. That was the year that he had put 1/2 of his combustion chamber in the top of his pistons (like a diesel piston) 2. 1 of his engines showed detonation at around 3500-4000 rpms but smoothed out and pulled clean all the way to the end. He didn't win that year but came in 2nd or 3rd. Like it or don't. Many of the names you see returning year after year can and do demand BIG money for they engines and people wait in line to pay it. They know their craft and they know it well. By the way Kasse builds Mopars too; 815cui+ Mopars!!

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