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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: MrAngry]
#1494406
10/02/13 12:15 PM
10/02/13 12:15 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,655
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,655
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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Learning 'that car' is as important as learning 'how to drive'. Capabilities of the driver AND the car have to mesh for best results, only learning what 'that car' can do/how it behaves/reacts, will result in that 'meshing'.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: dannysbee]
#1494407
10/02/13 12:32 PM
10/02/13 12:32 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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So.. the next step for the Hotchkis Challenger would be to start running on the Hoosier A6 tires (40 tread wear) vs the newer Mustang also on the Hoosier A6... then.. see who's faster? (The Falken tires are 200 tread wear.. ok for longer life and certain "club rules", such as GoodGuys events, as well as certain "autocross class tire restrictions".) Take a look at the recent Sept 2013 SCCA Solo National results... class E/Street Prepered (E/SP)... the only tires running all have 40 tread wear.. 95% were Hoosier A6 tires... a few new BFG 40 tread wear tires were also run. In my opinion, a relatively well-modified old mopar, such as our a-b-e body cars and some others, can nearly equalize in performance to the current newer-generation pony cars, such as the Mustang and Camaro, and in a few, perhaps "lucky" situations, exceed the newer cars. But, the newer cars still have an advantage of having started with an all-new platform and clean-sheet of paper design. The newer car's steering and brakes, as well as wide power-bands, are an advantage they have, meaning more upgrade needed to the older cars. For an older car, such as our older Mopars being fairly well-modified (and they don't have to be over-modified to any radical super-expensive designs, etc), just to be able to simply keep up with the newer generation of pony cars, is a success to be proud of to each owner. As always, the "nut-behind-the-wheel" (driver) will be the biggest factor in any contest.... the person with the better driving skill will generally have dominance/advantage in whatever they drive. 
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: amxautox]
#1494408
10/02/13 12:41 PM
10/02/13 12:41 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
dannysbee
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
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That is exactly why I am interested in Dan's opinion. I am sure he knows his product. I believe he has meshed with the challenger and his friend has meshed with the mustang. I would think there were some baseline testing of a stock mustang before the production of their kit and results with the kit installed.
Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: dannysbee]
#1494409
10/02/13 12:54 PM
10/02/13 12:54 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,655
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,655
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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It would be REALLY fun and informative to watch the baseline testing, AND then watch the testing of the cars with the new products installed, and as they upgrade/modify the new products to get the final resulting product. LOTS of work there.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar
[Re: amxautox]
#1494410
10/02/13 01:05 PM
10/02/13 01:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
dannysbee
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
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I agree it would be a lot of work but very satisfying to see/feel the results of your testing.
Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar *DELETED*
[Re: Uhcoog1]
#1494412
10/02/13 01:53 PM
10/02/13 01:53 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,645
Houston, Tx
AlexP
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 10,645
Houston, Tx
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I see one guy who doesn't track his older mopars, but is very well equipped to advise what new car to buy if that's what you're after. And another who tracks his mopar and outperforms a new mustang on similar tires to the tune of 2 seconds per auto-x course.
- Come on Wade... we both know this couldn't be farther from the truth.
I concede. You run your cars hard.
This guy.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar *DELETED*
[Re: AlexP]
#1494413
10/02/13 02:28 PM
10/02/13 02:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,194
the left coast
Hank
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,194
the left coast
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Wait, what was the question? Look, guys, watch this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ufEpb_WIR0Matt Farah knows what he is talking about. And he knows how to drive. I was out at Fontana with Matt and 50 other auto journalist types and he won the autocross competition, even beating Joe Gearin from Grassroots Motorsports, who is a top notch autocrosser. I've driven the new Camaro, Mustangs and 392 Challengers on the track. The Mustang is the best track car hands down--I don't know anyone who would disagree. And the Boss Mustang will hurt M3s. Mike Musto, who is participating in this thread, has driven all of those cars and more. He is a great driver and a track instructor. His choice for his personal car for the track? A Mustang GT. And he also owns a heavily built/modified Charger/Daytona clone. Easily a six figure car. I've driven his car and it's awesome--but it's still a freaking antique. And I know Mike agrees. Hotchkis has done some great stuff with the old Mopars. I'm sure they could do some great stuff with a Model T, too. But at the end of the day these are antiques. Enjoy them for what they are but don't try to compare them to the new stuff. Dollar for dollar give me a lightly used Mustang GT with a supercharger and some Griggs stuff. I've seen what those cars can do and it is sick. And guess what, the new C7 Vette will crush everything.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar *DELETED*
[Re: MrAngry]
#1494418
10/02/13 02:51 PM
10/02/13 02:51 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,655
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,655
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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Quote:
Quote:
Ok, next question: What is better, a modified Commodore 64, or an iPhone?
... and there you have it!
Lets not be logical now, Mr Spock. 
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar *DELETED*
[Re: Hank]
#1494419
10/02/13 05:01 PM
10/02/13 05:01 PM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
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Quote:
Wait, what was the question?
Look, guys, watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ufEpb_WIR0
Matt Farah knows what he is talking about. And he knows how to drive. I was out at Fontana with Matt and 50 other auto journalist types and he won the autocross competition, even beating Joe Gearin from Grassroots Motorsports, who is a top notch autocrosser.
I've driven the new Camaro, Mustangs and 392 Challengers on the track. The Mustang is the best track car hands down--I don't know anyone who would disagree. And the Boss Mustang will hurt M3s.
Mike Musto, who is participating in this thread, has driven all of those cars and more. He is a great driver and a track instructor. His choice for his personal car for the track? A Mustang GT. And he also owns a heavily built/modified Charger/Daytona clone. Easily a six figure car. I've driven his car and it's awesome--but it's still a freaking antique. And I know Mike agrees.
Hotchkis has done some great stuff with the old Mopars. I'm sure they could do some great stuff with a Model T, too. But at the end of the day these are antiques. Enjoy them for what they are but don't try to compare them to the new stuff.
Dollar for dollar give me a lightly used Mustang GT with a supercharger and some Griggs stuff. I've seen what those cars can do and it is sick.
And guess what, the new C7 Vette will crush everything.
Matt hit a lot of key points in that video that I would highlight two-
-Given more time in the Challenger he would have been quicker
-The Mustang had too much power.
I feel like we are beating a dead horse with this one, and there are not too many different ways to tell the same story. The Challenger takes a few laps, and even more under instruction to get confident and fast in it. The car has pretty much the best brakes in any car you'll ever drive short of a Ferrari on Carbon Ceramic, the turn in characteristics are unreal and most importantly, the car likes to rotate and be driven in a four wheel drift, and is very controllable if you know what you are doing. If you are a podcast/youtube guy given a 70k car, that is NOT what you do in your first session out. We had one of those guys offered the keys after I took him for a ride to show him the line and the car (talking him through 5-6 laps) and once he got in, we were 2 wheels off twice before our second lap was done. I pulled the plug.
Newer Camaors and Mustangs are great cars out of the box, and with our track packs will out drive most street tires easily. They hook up well on corner exit and provide an outstanding squat characteristic allowing great corner exit speed, and the newer V8's don't hurt. Most of these cars are putting down 340-370rwhp stock, where the Challenger is a mere 307rwhp. All things being fair, all the cars Camaro, Challenger (new and old) and Mustangs, can be built to "spec" within about 10k of each other, and all be really fun to drive. The biggest thing that our kits do and Matt attested to, is take the slop and "boatiness" out of the car, allowing the driver to drive the car more confidently.
All that aside, I'll be putting in 20-30 laps at Buttonwillow in our 65 Mustang R&D car next Thursday, and I guarantee I'll be having a blast!
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar *DELETED*
[Re: Hank]
#1494420
10/02/13 05:59 PM
10/02/13 05:59 PM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
Uhcoog1
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 723
Houston Tx
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Quote:
Look, guys, watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ufEpb_WIR0
I hate that video. That is not a good representation. Period.
Quote:
Wait, what was the question?
Quote:
So if you could only have one (limited garage space) would you try and get an old Mopar B/E body to handle or just sell it and get a newer Mustang 2011 - 2014 either a Boss 302, Roush Stage 3, Shelby, Saleen etc etc........
This is really a 'to each their own' kind of question. Those that want something individualistic stay with an old mopar and put up with the shortcomings. Those who don't care about appearances, want something that is comfortable on the street, and want performance on the track without any worry sell the mopar and get the mustang. Then there are the fortunate few who can afford both.
Quote:
Dollar for dollar give me a lightly used Mustang GT with a supercharger and some Griggs stuff. I've seen what those cars can do and it is sick.
And guess what, the new C7 Vette will crush everything.
Without question, if the only 'rules' to the challenge are total dollars spent, I could build a track car out of an old mopar that will beat your theoretical supercharged Mustang GT. But, like stated before, the 'whole package' will fall short (streetability, maintenance, etc).
-'02 Dodge Viper Ex-World Challenge racecar
-'73 Duster, 6.1 based 392 hilborn hemi, tko600, full floater rear 9", Hellwig custom bars, viper brakes, built for road course
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar *DELETED*
[Re: Uhcoog1]
#1494421
10/02/13 06:23 PM
10/02/13 06:23 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,194
the left coast
Hank
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 7,194
the left coast
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Quote:
Quote:
Look, guys, watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ufEpb_WIR0
I hate that video. That is not a good representation. Period.
Quote:
Wait, what was the question?
Quote:
So if you could only have one (limited garage space) would you try and get an old Mopar B/E body to handle or just sell it and get a newer Mustang 2011 - 2014 either a Boss 302, Roush Stage 3, Shelby, Saleen etc etc........
This is really a 'to each their own' kind of question. Those that want something individualistic stay with an old mopar and put up with the shortcomings. Those who don't care about appearances, want something that is comfortable on the street, and want performance on the track without any worry sell the mopar and get the mustang. Then there are the fortunate few who can afford both.
Quote:
Dollar for dollar give me a lightly used Mustang GT with a supercharger and some Griggs stuff. I've seen what those cars can do and it is sick.
And guess what, the new C7 Vette will crush everything.
Without question, if the only 'rules' to the challenge are total dollars spent, I could build a track car out of an old mopar that will beat your theoretical supercharged Mustang GT. But, like stated before, the 'whole package' will fall short (streetability, maintenance, etc).
Well, I just sold my big block '66 Satellite for $10,000. Last year I bought a 2007 Mustang GT with 50,000 easy miles on it for $14,000. It already had the Roush Stage 2 suspension package plus a few other standard mods (exhaust, etc.). So let's take a total budget of $25,000. Give me my old Satellite plus $15,000 vs. my Mustang GT plus $11,000 and build them with the same goal in mind--straight line performance, road course, mix of both, whatever. There is no way in hell the Satellite could or would win under any condition. It might look cooler/be cooler or whatever. But lap or track times? Um...
Anyway, I'd much rather have two. I'm keeping my Mustang and looking for a driver quality 68/9 Road Runner, which will be as bone stock as possible, save for wheels/tires/brakes/mild suspension tweaks--but only upgraded for safety and drivability, not "performance."
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar *DELETED*
[Re: Hank]
#1494422
10/02/13 06:53 PM
10/02/13 06:53 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
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I actually learned a few things about the newer Mustangs since this thread started. No need to get the fancy Boss 302 or other variants .... They offer a package called "The Track Package" comes with Brembo 4 piston calipers, Boss 302 radiator, 3.73 torsen rear axle Boss differential cover and a couple other components. http://dirtyhipporacing.com/2013/02/21/ford-mustang-track-pack-dissected-by-part-number/This looks like the car I will try and buy. Probably will be looking for a low mileage used one that I can get into for around 25K maybe less? Add a good quality track brake pad, the Ford racing front brake cooling kit, stainless steel brake lines and a quality brake fluid. Then get this friend of a friend that is a driving instructor out to one of the local tracks and get driving. Special thanks to Mike Musto for his input on this subject. One thing that Mike told me and he has mentioned it on this thread as well as Mitch, AMX and others......drive drive drive and then drive it some more learn the car.
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Re: Boss 302 Mustang or old Mopar *DELETED*
[Re: MrAngry]
#1494424
10/02/13 07:02 PM
10/02/13 07:02 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
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I gotta get one of these old Mopars out of my garage first....
Last edited by PHJ426; 10/02/13 11:19 PM.
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Modified is ALWAYS best. 
