Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Need advice on supercharged 340 build #1488333
08/21/13 01:17 PM
08/21/13 01:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 52
Pennsylvania
73bluebird Offline OP
member
73bluebird  Offline OP
member

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 52
Pennsylvania
Approximately 10 years ago I had a stock 1973 340 engine completely rebuilt by my local speed shop. I bought the complete original motor for in my ’73 Road Runner, but after finding that it had sand in the oil pan from the previous owner not properly sealing the ports when he sand blasted it to clean it up, we realized that a complete rebuild would be necessary before attempting to fire up the motor. At the time we wanted a budget build and the speed shop happened to have a used B&M supercharger laying around that we ultimately decided to incorporate into the build. The total cost back then was around $4500 and through dyno testing they proved the motor had 371 hp and 402 lb./ft torque (see details of this build listed below). I was really hoping to hit the 425 hp mark so that I could have the satisfaction of knowing that I had a small block motor cranking out around the same amount of hp that was advertised with the stock 426 hemi engines (I know the 426’s were probably advertised lower than what they actually put out), but that didn’t happen.

Now several years later I’m almost ready to put the motor back in the car, which will primarily be used for street use (kind of a pro touring vibe to the restoration I guess). I located an original B&M blower intake manifold because I wanted a nice clean manifold (my custom manifold worked, but wasn’t really show quality) for appearance purposes. I could only buy the manifold in a package deal, and what the seller told me was a 144 supercharger ended up being a 162 supercharger much to my delight. So starts the turmoil in my engine plans. I want to upgrade to the larger blower and I still have the 425 hp goal in my mind. Other upgrades that I have to go along with the engine include TTI ceramic coated headers, Rev-N-Nator electronic ignition, Firecore distributor, coil and wire set, and a Powerjection throttle body fuel injection setup. The engine will be matted to a Tremec TKO-600 5-speed transmission and an 8 ¾ Sure-grip rear end (gear to be determined, leaning towards 3.73 or 3.91). The car also has subframe connectors, an adjustable rear pinion snubber and HD big block leaf springs to handle the increased torque.

Through researching the topic I came across a Mopar Muscle magazine from 1992 featuring the Dick Landy Inc. supercharger engine build. In the article, dLi is claiming 450 hp from a 144 supercharger on a 340 engine with mild porting to stock heads and an upgraded cam, while they claim 500 hp from their high-engery supercharger and moderate porting of the heads. With this in mind I’m starting to wonder why my engine is built nearly the same, minus the porting work, but is producing way less hp on the dyno. I realize that dynos can be calibrated differently, but at 80 hp difference between their engine and mine I’m a bit concerned.

I’m looking for some suggestions on what to do to give my engine a little more power (425-500 hp range) without completely rebuilding it once again. Simply porting the factory heads, upgrading to aluminum heads, and even scrapping everything to buy a long block stroker motor have all crossed my mind. The only consistent thing I know is that I want a 340 block and the B&M forced induction setup that can be run on pump gas (or 92 Super if necessary), everything else could be subject to change. What I need is some input from Mopar engine gurus who know more about this sort of thing than I do. I’d like to get the car on the road next year, so what I’m looking for advice on the best way to liven up the engine without going completely crazy and dumping a ton of money into it. I could really use some guidance so I could quit stressing and pick a direction to take this engine build. Sorry for the long post, and thanks for taking the time to read.

Current Engine Specs.
Engine Displacement: 345 ci
Peak Horsepower: 371 at 5400 rpm
Peak Torque: 402 lb./ft at 3900 rpm
Bore: 4.070
Stroke: 3.310
Compression Ratio: 8.27:1
Crankshaft: Stock, cast-iron
Main Bearings: Sealed Power, 4923MA10, Bi-metal
Connecting Rods: Stock forged
Rod Side Clearance: 0.010-0.140
Rod Bearings: Sealed Power, 2130CP10, Tri-metal
Pistons: Speed Pro, L2316F30, forged
Rings: Sealed Power, E286K30, Iron Moly
Ring End Gap Clearance: 0.026/0.026
Cylinder Heads: Stock 587, machined for larger intake valve
Combustion Chamber Size: 68cc
Intake Valve Size: 2.02
Exhaust Valve Size: 1.60
Valve Springs: COMP Cams 995-16, 1.700 installed height
Rocker Arms: Mopar Performance stock type
Pushrods: Stock
Camshaft: COMP Cams 20-223-3 Hydraulic
Int./Exh. Duration at 0.050 Lift: 224/230
Int./Exh. Max Valve Lift: .477/.480
Intake Centerline: 106
Lobe Separation: 110
Timing Set: Stock
Intake Manifold: Customized low profile single plane aluminum Edelbrock blower manifold
Induction: B&M 144 Roots-type supercharger (2.08:1 drive ratio, approx. 7-8 lbs boost)
Fuel Delivery: Demon 750 cfm blower carb
Ignition: Mopar Performance
Timing Specs: 33 degrees total
Exhaust/Headers: Hooker Super Comp.

Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: 73bluebird] #1488334
08/21/13 01:37 PM
08/21/13 01:37 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303
Bend,OR USA
Was the original blower the smaller one when it was dyno tested? Peak HP is determined at certain RPM, change he amount of boost and the HP and RPM can and will change The key to making power on any motor is airflow, the more air and fuel the more power you get If I was you and the smaller blower was on the motor I wouldn't change anything on the motor until I ran the bigger blower BTW, I have dyno tested several roots blown pump gas motors, I have seen 100 HP gain by going from 12 % under driven at 7 lbs of boost going to 13 % over driven with 12 lbs of boost with race gas The bigger blower can be ran slower and make the same boost while forcing more volume through the motor at WOT which will make more power Slowing the blower down also results in cooler inlet temps, which is really important to help prevent detontaion. If your not going to use the bigger blower I would change the heads to a good set of new aluminum heads like the Edlebrock or Indybrocks with bigger ports and valves with the sme size combustion chambers as you have now, that will allow more air into the motor as well as help keep the combustion temps in control in the cylinders IHTHs


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: 73bluebird] #1488335
08/21/13 01:39 PM
08/21/13 01:39 PM
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 167
maryland
7
74yellowduster Offline
member
74yellowduster  Offline
member
7

Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 167
maryland
Compression Ratio: 8.27:1 is low, killing your HP

http://www.uempistons.com/kb_car/performance.php?action=details&P_id=135

not sure what will happen if you go 9.5:1 with a blower and use pump gas...

maybe someone with a blower can give you pointers

personnaly, i'd just stick with what you have, drive and enjoy it

Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: 74yellowduster] #1488336
08/21/13 01:49 PM
08/21/13 01:49 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck  Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Is the 371 w/ boost? I would have thunk you'd be well over the 400 mark w/ 8psi of boost. If you are running a 5 speed I'd drop down to 3.55's The boost will come in quicker and you will have more of a "powerband" You could also consider going to 1.6 roller rockers. That might help a tad.


[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: Cab_Burge] #1488337
08/21/13 01:52 PM
08/21/13 01:52 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 52
Pennsylvania
73bluebird Offline OP
member
73bluebird  Offline OP
member

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 52
Pennsylvania
Quote:

Was the original blower the smaller one when it was dyno tested?




Yes, the engine specs listed are the way the engine was built and tested, including the 144 supercharger. My thoughts on switching to the larger blower was that I could drive it slower and keep some of the temps down while producing the same boost as you explained. I have read and reread the B&M Supercharger Technical manual at least a dozen times, but unfortunately the engine builds and graphs they collected were non-Chrysler. That's what got me thinking more about head porting and cam selection, but I just don't have enough knowledge or experience with specific parts to be able to compare them to say another compatible part (ie. cams) or combination.

I considered porting my stock heads, but for roughly $1000 to get a stage III port job and gasket matching on the intake also I'm wondering if a better flowing (compared to the stock heads I have now) unported set of aluminum heads would be a better investment of my money. To complicate this even further, I've heard both positive and negative things about running aluminum heads with a supercharger.

Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: 74yellowduster] #1488338
08/21/13 01:58 PM
08/21/13 01:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
D
dogdays Offline
I Live Here
dogdays  Offline
I Live Here
D

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,376
1. Your heads are the #1 thing I see holding you back. The larger valves if no porting was done don't do much if anything. Even though there is a pump pushing air through them, having less restriction in the intake ports helps more air get in.
2. I'd agree that even a set of out-of-the-box Edelbrock heads will help in three ways:
a. Easier work for the supercharger.
b. Allow you to run more compression ratio that'll help across the board.
c. Better combustion chamber should help as well.
3. If these changes don't get you where you want, turn the supercharger faster. As posted above, that's the quick way to more power. Use of a larger charger is another way to do the same thing.
4. Keep in mind that pushing harder on the air puts more heat into the air (adiabatic heat of compression) so anything you can do to make the supercharger's job easier helps across the board.
5. The last step is getting the exhaust out. Bigger horsepower means bigger headers.

I don't see why you cannot get an easy 550 crankshaft hp with your setup and my proposed mods. That's just 1.6 hp/cubic inch.

R.

Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: 73bluebird] #1488339
08/21/13 02:08 PM
08/21/13 02:08 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303
Bend,OR USA
Quote:

Quote:

Was the original blower the smaller one when it was dyno tested?




Yes, the engine specs listed are the way the engine was built and tested, including the 144 supercharger. My thoughts on switching to the larger blower was that I could drive it slower and keep some of the temps down while producing the same boost as you explained. I have read and reread the B&M Supercharger Technical manual at least a dozen times, but unfortunately the engine builds and graphs they collected were non-Chrysler. That's what got me thinking more about head porting and cam selection, but I just don't have enough knowledge or experience with specific parts to be able to compare them to say another compatible part (ie. cams) or combination.

I considered porting my stock heads, but for roughly $1000 to get a stage III port job and gasket matching on the intake also I'm wondering if a better flowing (compared to the stock heads I have now) unported set of aluminum heads would be a better investment of my money. To complicate this even further, I've heard both positive and negative things about running aluminum heads with a supercharger.


You should keep in mind that the stock block has a limit on how much power it can handle before failing, especially driving a crank driven supercharger I would put the bigger blower on it now and lower the drive ratio by around 3 to 5 %, try that and then, after looking very closely at all of the spark plugs , look at increasing the blower boost I would also install a manifold inlet temperature gauge(under the blowerr ) and not go nuts on WOT with inlet temps over 200 F I don't remember the exact HP and torque differences on testing with 130 F inlet temps. and 190 F, but it was measurable and detonation started at a lot lower RPM The last blown motor I dyno tested made peak power at 7300 RPM with 7 lbs of boost with 33 degrees total timing, we switch the pulleys and that motor made peak power at 6500 RPM with 25 degrees timing at 12 lbs of boost and it was starting to detonate I shuld have put the timing at 20 degrees total instead of starting at 25 degrees Lesson learned on testing We ran out of dyno time and the customer wasn't going to hook the power we made at 7 lbs, 927 HP at 7300 RPM with 860 ft lbs at 5500 RPM Be very careful on your tuning


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: Cab_Burge] #1488340
08/21/13 02:26 PM
08/21/13 02:26 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 52
Pennsylvania
73bluebird Offline OP
member
73bluebird  Offline OP
member

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 52
Pennsylvania
Quote:

You should keep in mind that the stock block has a limit on how much power it can handle before failing, especially driving a crank driven supercharger I would put the bigger blower on it now and lower the drive ratio by around 3 to 5 %, try that and then, after looking very closely at all of the spark plugs , look at increasing the blower boost I would also install a manifold inlet temperature gauge(under the blowerr ) and not go nuts on WOT with inlet temps over 200 F I don't remember the exact HP and torque differences on testing with 130 F inlet temps. and 190 F, but it was measurable and detonation started at a lot lower RPM The last blown motor I dyno tested made peak power at 7300 RPM with 7 lbs of boost with 33 degrees total timing, we switch the pulleys and that motor made peak power at 6500 RPM with 25 degrees timing at 12 lbs of boost and it was starting to detonate I shuld have put the timing at 20 degrees total instead of starting at 25 degrees Lesson learned on testing We ran out of dyno time and the customer wasn't going to hook the power we made at 7 lbs, 927 HP at 7300 RPM with 860 ft lbs at 5500 RPM Be very careful on your tuning




Those dyno numbers are impressive! I am aware of and concerned about detonation, but don't really know how far I can push my engine until this would become a problem. Again, I've never built an engine myself and am trying to learn as I go here, so I appreciate your explanations. I definitely don't want to push my engine so far that there is a reliability issue or that it's teetering on the edge of self destructing. I'm thinking that I want to have my rev-limiter set to around 5500 rpm in order to prevent damage to the A/C compressor (rated for use up to 6000 rpm) and also to keep the blower speed within a safe range (they are not to exceed 12,000 rpm and at a 2.08:1 drive that is exceeded before 6000 rpm). I really plan to use the car for cruising and not racing, so I'm thinking that WOT runs would be limited and that the fifth gear .64 OD will help keep cruising RPMs down on the highway.

Thanks to all who have posted so far, I appreciate all of your comments and suggestions and will be exploring some of them in more depth.

Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: 73bluebird] #1488341
08/21/13 04:56 PM
08/21/13 04:56 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,635
Oakland, MI
D
dizuster Offline
master
dizuster  Offline
master
D

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,635
Oakland, MI
Well for what it's worth....

My dad has been running a supercharged stock block, stock crank, ported iron headed, 340" since '85. The motor is ~8:1 and had a cam very similar to yours in it for most of it's life (finally upgraded to a R3 block, and big solid cam in late 2000's).

At 3850lbs, the car had run a best of 11.60's@117mph with 12~13psi. Now this is with a V671 blower, not the B&M stuff, but you can see the potential and durability is there for what you're talking about.

I honestly would put it together with what you have. If you're unhappy with the results, you can always make changes later, but what you have isn't mismatched really at all. Might have to play around with the boost/timing to get the tune right, but it'll make over 400 with it's eyed closed once you get it right.

Bolt that big blower up and let it rip!

Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: dizuster] #1488342
08/21/13 08:22 PM
08/21/13 08:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 339
Gilroy,CA.
mopardude318 Offline
enthusiast
mopardude318  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 339
Gilroy,CA.
Id love to see pics of your setup. I have a NOS B&M 162 supercharger setup. But I need to build a shortblock for it one day...


408 Stroker 533 HP 520 FT LBS...........................1970 Dart RMS AlterKation
Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: 73bluebird] #1488343
08/21/13 08:29 PM
08/21/13 08:29 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,213
New York
polyspheric Offline
master
polyspheric  Offline
master

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,213
New York
Camshaft: COMP Cams 20-223-3 Hydraulic
Int./Exh. Duration at 0.050 Lift: 268/280

That's a typo, right?


Boffin Emeritus
Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: dizuster] #1488344
08/21/13 11:13 PM
08/21/13 11:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,882
MI, usa
dvw Offline
master
dvw  Offline
master

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 9,882
MI, usa
Quote:

Well for what it's worth....

My dad has been running a supercharged stock block, stock crank, ported iron headed, 340" since '85. The motor is ~8:1 and had a cam very similar to yours in it for most of it's life (finally upgraded to a R3 block, and big solid cam in late 2000's).

At 3850lbs, the car had run a best of 11.60's@117mph with 12~13psi. Now this is with a V671 blower, not the B&M stuff, but you can see the potential and durability is there for what you're talking about.

I honestly would put it together with what you have. If you're unhappy with the results, you can always make changes later, but what you have isn't mismatched really at all. Might have to play around with the boost/timing to get the tune right, but it'll make over 400 with it's eyed closed once you get it right.

Bolt that big blower up and let it rip!




With the bigger cam (245@,050",540/560,110 LCA) 9" PTC, home ported 308 heads,4.30 gear its gone 11.01@123 at 3890lbs thru mufflers.
Doug

7823164-IMG_7816.JPG (1596 downloads)
Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: 73bluebird] #1488345
08/21/13 11:34 PM
08/21/13 11:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303
Bend,OR USA
I should have clarified that motor was not a blown SB, it is a 496 C.I. 426 style Hemi with a Littlefield 10:71 and two Carb Shop 1050 Dominator blower carbs. Sorry for not being clear to start with BTW, I have built several N/A SB 340 NHRA stocker motors that made 430 HP over 12 yrs ago, more is possible now with the current technology and parts


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: polyspheric] #1488346
08/22/13 12:51 AM
08/22/13 12:51 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 52
Pennsylvania
73bluebird Offline OP
member
73bluebird  Offline OP
member

Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 52
Pennsylvania
Quote:

Camshaft: COMP Cams 20-223-3 Hydraulic
Int./Exh. Duration at 0.050 Lift: 268/280

That's a typo, right?




Yes, Duration at 0.050 Lift should be 268/230

As far as head upgrades, I've been researching the Mopar LA Super Commando heads. They're a little pricey, but seem like they have about the best flow numbers for exhaust. If I were to buy the heads assembled (as advertised by Mopar), what other parts would I have to track down to make them work with my engine?

Here's a pic of the engine as it currently sits, still with the custom intake, 144 blower and Demon carb.

Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: 73bluebird] #1488347
08/22/13 01:09 AM
08/22/13 01:09 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,424
Kalispell Mt.
H
HotRodDave Offline
I Live Here
HotRodDave  Offline
I Live Here
H

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,424
Kalispell Mt.
just bumpt the compression to 10 or so and ditch the blower and make the same power.

Seems pretty lame that motor only making 370/400 a mild N/A build can do that without trying. I think something big is wrong with the motor, cam timing, leakdown...


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: HotRodDave] #1488348
08/22/13 01:12 AM
08/22/13 01:12 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,424
Kalispell Mt.
H
HotRodDave Offline
I Live Here
HotRodDave  Offline
I Live Here
H

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 12,424
Kalispell Mt.
What manifold did you start with?

Ditch the Fram filter.


I am not causing global warming, I am just trying to hold off a impending Ice Age!



Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: polyspheric] #1488349
08/22/13 02:25 AM
08/22/13 02:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 660
River Falls, WI
urdustd Offline
mopar
urdustd  Offline
mopar

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 660
River Falls, WI
Quote:

Camshaft: COMP Cams 20-223-3 Hydraulic
Int./Exh. Duration at 0.050 Lift: 268/280

That's a typo, right?




That cam has advertised duration of 268/280
Duration @0.050 is 224/230

A 10:1 N/A 340 with that cam and factory heads will make 375+HP. I know that blower isn't a real powerhouse but it should easily make over 400HP even at 8.25:1!
I remember reading articles about DLi using that blower on low compression 400's to make 450 or so HP. I do not remember the cam they used though....

Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: urdustd] #1488350
08/22/13 12:39 PM
08/22/13 12:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,578
sweden
1
1Fast340 Offline
master
1Fast340  Offline
master
1

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,578
sweden
Quote:

Quote:

Camshaft: COMP Cams 20-223-3 Hydraulic
Int./Exh. Duration at 0.050 Lift: 268/280

That's a typo, right?




That cam has advertised duration of 268/280
Duration @0.050 is 224/230

A 10:1 N/A 340 with that cam and factory heads will make 375+HP. I know that blower isn't a real powerhouse but it should easily make over 400HP even at 8.25:1!
I remember reading articles about DLi using that blower on low compression 400's to make 450 or so HP. I do not remember the cam they used though....




that cam will only make 375+ hp in a magazine fairytale written by the usual unicorns in a stockheaded 340 N/A

Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: Cab_Burge] #1488351
08/22/13 08:37 PM
08/22/13 08:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 80
Maryland, USA
R
Raymond Offline
member
Raymond  Offline
member
R

Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 80
Maryland, USA
one of the key to forced iduction is camshaft
you will need a cam with wide lobe center
112 to 116 degres.anything less will create too
much overlap,meaning you will blow all the boost
out the exhaust.from your post you got the wrong
cam.

Re: Need advice on supercharged 340 build [Re: Raymond] #1488352
08/22/13 10:10 PM
08/22/13 10:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
Cab_Burge  Offline
I Win
C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,303
Bend,OR USA
Quote:

one of the key to forced iduction is camshaft
you will need a cam with wide lobe center
112 to 116 degres.anything less will create too
much overlap,meaning you will blow all the boost
out the exhaust.from your post you got the wrong
cam.


Me thinks your repeating a well known myth on supercharged street motors,(NOS motors also) especially on Hemi motors The key to making power on any engine is to fill the cylinders full of fuel and air in the proper ratio to make the most cylinder pressures when firing them Wider lobe center will move the peak HP RPM up if you have enough cam, valve train parts, intake and exhaust system to support the motor making more power above a given RPM I would look at running less effective duration on a blown pump gas street motor than I would on a similar N/A motor looking to make the most power I could on either combination


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Page 1 of 2 1 2






Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1