Hi everyone. I went out yesterday to fire up my 451 for the first time in 6 years and I've got a noise coming from what sounds like the roller rockers or the lifters. The Engine background. I built the engine in 2001, after 2 kids, a near divorce, poor machine work on the block, and a few job changes, I'm FINALLY going to get it running again. it's a 400 block 440 crank 451. Crane cams hyd roller lifter 224/230 .509/.530 lift. crane gold roller rockers, 9.5 comp. Ported 906 heads, 2.14 valves. 2" TTI headers. Nothing crazy, I wanted a nice street motor. Ran it about 10 minutes yesterday, just setting the timing, adjusting the carb, checking for leaks. After about 5 min I heard a " tick" in the motor. Shut it down and let it sit a few minutes. It wasn't noticeable at idle, but once you revved it up, it got louder. Fired it back up, no tick. Ran the engine some more, adjusting the carb and revving the motor up to 3000 and back down slowly. Then took the engine up to 5000rpm slowly and back down. RAN GREAT! Sounded AWESOME. did some snap tests, made some carb adjustments. Ran it up to 5500rpm faster this time. Sounded great, no miss, no back fire, just angry big block. Let it idle, checked the timing again, 32 degrees at 2000 rpm. when I did this I heard the " tick" again. Shut down the engine, let it cool off a bit. Fired it up again, and at idle, no "tick". At 1500rpm, "tick" doesn't sound like the bottom end, sounds like valve train. Also noticed at this time oil pressure dropped from over 60 at idle, to 30 psi at idle. At 1500rpm oil pressure is 80psi. Let the engine cool, remove the drivers side valve cover. Tried to readjust the #1 intake bolt, the nut was stuck to it. Removed the rocker adjusting bolt and nut from the rocker. put the nut in a vice and turned the bolt out, which pulled the threads. NOW, I ran this engine about 10 years ago, and had the same problem with these CRANE GOLD rockers. I had 2 break while driving down the road, luckily the lifters stayed in place. Crane said this was a race engine and they wouldn't warranty the parts. So I bought all new nuts and adjusting bolts from them. Clowns. Now, it seems I'm having the same problem. Checked all the rockers on this side, and found #7 intake the same way. Could this be the cause of my "ticking" sound? This drives me nuts.
Does anyone like these Crane GOLD rockers?
Did Crane EVER fix this problem?
Should I just junk these rockers and get some comp magnum steel rockers?

I am this close to just selling the damn car and saying the hell with it. I bought a jeep a few years ago and I'm so burnt out on this car I barely care anymore. The only reason I'm working on it is to get it the hell out of my garage and get my jeep in to work on it. Everyone tells me not to sell it, but I'm tired of this crap. Maybe once I drive it, I'll change my mind, but this engine is cursed i guess.

So what rockers do you guys run on the street? This isn't a drag motor.
If anyone has any advice, at all, let me hear it. I need a reason to keep this car. Thanks.

I'm running the crane ductile iron adjustable rockers and those seem to have the best reputation for street and strip.

I'd definitely take a break for a week. I'm assuming the preload was adequate before so it would be now. It'd be time consuming but I'd take apart/clean/reassemble each lifter as you know not mixing up the common pieces & see what you DO have for preload. EDIT Maybe with a stethoscope you can ID exactly WHICH one or ones are acting up

well pull the valve covers and have a look around in there before doing anything else!

pulled the valve covers. Found one more adjusting bolt with bad threads, had to put it in the vise to get the nut off. I don't think I put enough preload on the lifters to begin with. I could spin all of the push rods easily by hand. I checked everyone one of them, and they were all this way. I took the lifters apart once already. In 2007 the last time I ran this motor. The machinist apparently forgot to clean the block after the work he did to it. Wiped out the bearings in about 20 miles. I pulled every lifter apart. Had to drill out the rivets that hold the 2 together, then take them apart and clean them with a Q-tip and alcohol. This was as per CRANE. Then send them back to CRANE to have new rivets put on them. None of them looked damaged, but they said the build the lifters to millionths of an inch. So, I guess they could be damaged. But it ran soooo good. Hopefully I can get some new hardware for the rockers and run it again, and see if it still ticks. I still don't trust the rockers though. What junk.

keep at it!

getting ready to order all new rocker arm adjusting screws. Only $50 from Summit. I will never buy Crane products again, after this.
talked to a machinist today. He said if the preload on the lifters isn't enough they will make some noise. After checking my adjustments, not all of them were loaded. Get new parts, run it again, hope for best.

Holler how it turns out. We're pullin for ya . Hopefully Mr Murphy will leave you alone for awhile

Replace the rockers. If they are already a problem why keep them?

Your not going to race the car Correct/ Why so much cam ? Personally I would go with a different setup/ stock style on a car I was not going to race. Too many people get upset and frustrated by using race style parts on a car that is a weekend toy. I realize that people often like the lump cams but the added expense and constant up keep can really get old. Frankly I would put a hyd flat tappet in it with good stock rockers and forget it

I didn't think the cam was radical. .528 lift with 230 duration isn't really a race cam. I agree though, a flat tappet would have probably saved me time and money.

Well I got the new adjusting screws and nuts for the roller rockers. Went and adjusted the pre-load on all the lifters again. This is where I have a question. I've adjusted thousands of valves on diesel engines for years. I know how to get valve lash and how to use a feeler gauge. But, these hyd. roller lifters are new to me. On some of the lifters, the plunger in the lifter would move down as I tightened the screw on the rocker. I got the slack out of the pushrod and spun it with my finger until I felt resistance. Then I would give the screw another 1/2 turn. On SOME of the lifters the cup would move down, and on some of the lifters when I tried to go that 1/2 extra of a turn, it would compress the valve spring. This was after the car has been sitting for 2 days with out running. So I tried it like this. Put it back together, fired it up, and tick, tick, tick. I let it warm up, tick is still there. You can't hear it at idle, but at 1200rpm it's there. When you rev it up, you can't hear it over the exhaust, but it doesn't run rough. It runs smooth. With the engine warm at idle I have 30 psi oil pressure, BUT, now I've noticed that the oil pressure needle jumps rapidly. 30-35 psi, the needle bounces at an idle. I'm pretty sure this isn't normal. It moves about as fast as the lifter does at idle. So out of frustration, I tried to blow up the engine. I ran the snot out of it. The MSD is set for 6000 rpm MAX and I never hit the rev limiter, but I'd say it was over 5000rpm. I stood on the side, grabbed the carb and tried to kill it. It never missed a beat. 5000rpm to idle, no problem. Idle to 5000 rpm, no problem. 2000 to 5000+ rpm, no problem. 1200+ rpm, tick, tick, tick. What the hell? A new set of these lifters are $700 bucks and I'm tempted to try it, but they're $700. Should they collapse easily when I'm adjusting the rockers? Can I just get some solid roller lifters for this and be done with it? I don't mind adjusting valves with a feeler gauge, this hyd lifter adjusting is B.S...

I'm either giving you an awesome answer or explaining something obvious and insuting you- either way here goes-

The hydrolic lifters have a cup that floats inside that holds the pushrod. When the space underneath is full of oil they will be 'hard' and preload will open the valve slightly. The ones that have been under valve spring pressure while the car sat will be 'soft'- the cup is only sitting on a light spring because the spring pressure bled off the oil.

What you want is to adjust for 0 lash like a solid, then give a little preload so you are riding on that oil cushion but if you over-rev and pump up the lifter you won't float the valve too high or for too long.

There is some room for error and different manufacturers will have different preload reccommendations. I have just matched up all the adjusters (intake and ex seperately) by #of threads to keep it simple or for a quick shortcut on a mild build. Then if they're noisy turn them in a touch more. Probably a cheezy way to do it but like I said the hydros have a little room for error.

Btw I had some aggressive closing ramps on comp hi-lift hydro cams that made them clatter worse than my solids- I assume your roller cam has stout valve springs to keep that kind of thing under control?

I hope I helped

Rdr

ok, at this point, insult me all you want. Like I said, I work on diesel engines that don't have hydro lifters. So IF I get the rocker to zero lash, and turn it down 1/2 turn more, even though it opens the valve, it's OK? They're Crane Gold Rockers and they say to run them 1/2 to 1 full turn past ZERO lash. So opening the valve a little to get that 1/2 turn isn't going to hurt? Am I reading this right? The cam isn't crazy, it's 224/230 @ .050 and .509/.528. I can't believe I'm having this much trouble adjusting the rockers.

If zero lash is riding on a pumped up lifter then it is ok to preload them even if it temporarily opens the valve.

If it is zero lash and you already bottomed out the pushrod cup inside the lifter then you've not left room for the oil to fill up and act as a cushion- you've locked it up solid then permanantly unseated the valve.

Two ways to check- do a quick visual check of the rocker adjusters- they should be close to each other I to I and E to E if one is screwed way down start trying to figure out why. Second way is after you adjust one, go drink a beer or walk around the block. When you come back to it the valve spring pressure should have bled enough oil out of the lifter to close the valve.

It can be a little maddening if you haven't messed with them before. Like I said for mild setups I cheat and start with all intake rockers adjusted the same and all exh rockers adjusted the same. Then tighten by 1/8 turns till you like the sound or give up.

You could always pull the intake and see that each pushrod cup inside the lifter gets preloaded until it sits the correct amount below the snap ring that holds it in but thats a bit much.

Hydraulic lifters have to be machined to a crazy standard then sold for cheap- lots can go wrong, and you get a clicking annoying problem. I like solids but detroit made millions and millions of hydrolic setups that worked so....

with everything your describing and the oil pressure jumping around at idle im really thinking your lifters are the problem here.

setting the lash on hydraulic cams is extremly tricky many have tried and failed. A friend of mine tried and tried (would not let me help) and eventually gave up and bought stock rockers and pushrods??

The problem is as you turn the motor over some lifters will pump down others not and all to varying degrees.

And the feel for 0 lash is extremly delicate before you add pre load.
lots have ended up with .200 and more pre load others not enough and many a big mix of too much and not enough.

Some say back off adjustment till lightly hold pressure toward rocker spinning push rod very lightly as you adjust down till you fell very light drag on lifter, Take in mind this is a very light drag as all you have is the pressure of the light spring holding lifter plunger up as it will most likely be pumped down some by now.

Other way is again holding pressure toward rocker moving up and down till you can feel that light presser of the lifter spring. then in both cases 1 to 1.25 turns for the pree load maybe an extra .25 turn for aluminum heads.

BUT i like to pull the intake and gasket so I can see what each lifter is doing. Then you cam hold pushrod towards rocker as you back it off and you can see plunger come up to retainer clip. the back till plunger just moves then 1 to 1 1/4 turn of pre load and do next.

The visual way is the best way for 90% of us.

hope this helps a bit!



then if there is some light ticking you know you have them all set even and you can go around and give it 1/4 turn more pre load at a time till it quiets down. Course roads lifters will always tick a bit other fast bleed lifters out there may as well.

You can change to solid lifters will need a longer pushrod and you set the lash tighter than a solid cam. A friend did it on a crane .528 Hydraulic and they (crane) told him no problem but hot lash at about .004 intake and .006 exhaust because of the difference in ramps solid verses hydraulic cam worked teal well.

where as a solid cam is often .022 to .028 lash.