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Re: Timing chain slip [Re: RapidRobert] #1477389 08/03/13 09:27 AM 08/03/13 09:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA D dnd0001 OP member
dnd0001 OP member D Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA	I do appreciate all the help. I'm learning as I go. I know enough to be dangerous. Little hard to do everything by my self. But at TDC the dizzy cap is pointing at #6 spark plug hole. When I turn the dampener, I can turn it about 5-8 degrees before the rotor moves. Next this morning I will pull the fuel pump and stick the camera in and see what I can see. In order to see the marks at 6 and 12 should I be at TDC on #1 or #6?

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477390 08/03/13 09:37 AM 08/03/13 09:37 AM
Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 343 S.E.Mich D drew72 enthusiast
drew72 enthusiast D Joined: Aug 2010 Posts: 343 S.E.Mich	Quote: I do appreciate all the help. I'm learning as I go. I know enough to be dangerous. Little hard to do everything by my self. But at TDC the dizzy cap is pointing at #6 spark plug hole. When I turn the dampener, I can turn it about 5-8 degrees before the rotor moves. Next this morning I will pull the fuel pump and stick the camera in and see what I can see. In order to see the marks at 6 and 12 should I be at TDC on #1 or #6? You're at #6 when the dots are at 6&12

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: drew72] #1477391 08/03/13 10:37 AM 08/03/13 10:37 AM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA D dnd0001 OP member
dnd0001 OP member D Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA	Fuel pump is off. I can't see if the marks line up with the camera. The cam chain mark is down, I just can't tell if its straight down. It's a duel chain/sprocket. I can lift the chain off the sprocket slightly and the chain to me seems loose. Looser than when it was first put on that's for sure. So if it did slip a tooth what would have caused that? I know the chain will stretch some but with only1600 miles it should be that stretched?

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477392 08/03/13 10:40 AM 08/03/13 10:40 AM
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours Supercuda About to go away
Supercuda About to go away Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours	Quote: Fuel pump is off. I can't see if the marks line up with the camera. The cam chain mark is down, I just can't tell if its straight down. It's a duel chain/sprocket. I can lift the chain off the sprocket slightly and the chain to me seems loose. Looser than when it was first put on that's for sure. So if it did slip a tooth what would have caused that? I know the chain will stretch some but with only1600 miles it should be that stretched? Some years ago, I needed to replace the timing chain in my 318. I was doing other stuff too and this was mostly preventative since I was there anyway. I got a Summit house brand because I thought the name brand stuff was overpriced. That timing chain was looser than my original 100k+ one after about 2-3000 miles. Since then I only run name brand units. I like Edelbrock sets so I run them. They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: Supercuda] #1477393 08/03/13 10:54 AM 08/03/13 10:54 AM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA D dnd0001 OP member
dnd0001 OP member D Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA	Thanks for the info. I don't know what one the engine builder used. He may have even used the original which was new when I bought the car. He tried to reuse the original cam shaft until the actual mechanic told me that they did. i had them replace it, which i hope they did? Don' t know the brand. I have emailed him telling him my findings. This is the engine builder that forgot to put the plug in the oil port. So when the car was being broke in the oil was bypassing the oil filter for the first 10 minutes until the Dino guy noticed the oil filter wasn't at temperature. He checked the main bearings and didn't like what he saw so he replaced the main bearings supposedly.

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477394 08/03/13 11:13 AM 08/03/13 11:13 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: But at TDC the dizzy cap is pointing at #6 spark plug hole. When I turn the dampener, I can turn it about 5-8 degrees before the rotor moves. With it at TDC the rotor is at (or near) #6 cap terminal correct? At or near the #1 terminal is perfectly OK also. If so the chain ain't slipped & the 5-8 deg is a significant amount of slop but not a dealbreaker & the problem is elsewhere. You're original "initial" timing was 16 so I'd bring the dampener back up to that (16) on the tab starting at 20 or so always going clockwise to take the slack out of the chain then turn the housing till the magnet is dead even with the tooth that places the rotor under or near under the #6 or the #1 cap terminal. At that point it should fire/run but holler if something is wonky & wont let you set it this way such as when lined up with the tooth the rotor is way off from being under/close to #1 or #6 live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: Supercuda] #1477395 08/03/13 11:39 AM 08/03/13 11:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,436 Blair County,PA 62maxwgn master
62maxwgn master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,436 Blair County,PA	There are good chain's and there are bad chain's,the bad out number the good by about 75%

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: RapidRobert] #1477396 08/03/13 11:59 AM 08/03/13 11:59 AM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA D dnd0001 OP member
dnd0001 OP member D Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA	With #6 at TDC on the compression stroke the distributor is in the middle of #6 and #5 plug wires.

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477397 08/03/13 12:12 PM 08/03/13 12:12 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: With #6 at TDC on the compression stroke the distributor is in the middle of #6 and #5 plug wires. OK: Can you now turn the housing till the magnet is lined up with the tooth & will that put the rotor under or nearly under The #6 cap terminal? I gotta head out the door but I will check back later live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: RapidRobert] #1477398 08/03/13 02:23 PM 08/03/13 02:23 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA D dnd0001 OP member
dnd0001 OP member D Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA	The #6 and #1 is confusing me. I won't back to TDC on #1 compression stroke. After feeling the timing chain about 5 more times, I would say I can push it in about 1/8 or a little more. I can't pull the chain off the top of the cam sprocket, only on the side which I assume is normal. Turning it clockwise from 40 I now is at 16 degrees before TDC on the dampener. I loosened the distributor hold down. Turned the distributor head until #1 wire was lined up with the rotor cap. The reluctor paddle is in the magnet on the opposite side. Is that all correct? It started and kept running. The timing at idle is showing 20 degrees. I did change back the springs on the msd distributor to make sure the advance wasn't kicking in. I had it set to kick in at 800 RPMs. Maybe that was the problem when I was getting the 40-50 range along with to must advance? If I set it for 16 shouldn't re reading 16 on the dampener instead of 20? Last edited by dnd0001; 08/03/13 03:15 PM.

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477399 08/03/13 07:30 PM 08/03/13 07:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	I should have put in my post to: from TDC #1 compression back the crank up (CCW) slightly to 20 then come forward (CW) to 16 (takes the slack out of the chain) then line the magnet up with the tooth that places the rotor under or near under the #1 cap rotor which you ended up doing . regarding it showing 20 with the light, it fires when the tooth JUST moves away from the magnet which if anything would retard it a bit from 16 (maybe to 15) going from the static setting to what the timing light shows rather than advancing it (& you have 20). I'm assuming the vac adv line to the carb is on ported (no vac adv at idle) & that the weights ain't advancing at idle. Just set the timing at 16 as that was what it was at before & it ran OK. The problem now is that unless something was loose in the dist that is has been rectified with what you have done then the cause of why it died still ain't been addressed yet (I'm hoping it has) as we know now that the dampener and the tchain were OK & we have only tinkered with the dizzy. live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: RapidRobert] #1477400 08/03/13 08:32 PM 08/03/13 08:32 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA D dnd0001 OP member
dnd0001 OP member D Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA	It's starting hard. Way harder than it use too. Once I get her going it hardly running. To the point when I get it it dies. Once it warmed up a little I could keep it going. When I tried to adjust it down it die and won't start. It runs better when I'm up at around 30 with the timing light. Its like it wants to be at 34 like it is during all in. I can't run it at 16. I don,t use vacuum advance. I have the MSD distributor with the springs and the weights. Something just isn't right with the timing.

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477401 08/03/13 10:31 PM 08/03/13 10:31 PM
Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,177 ill D dennismopar73 top fuel
dennismopar73 top fuel D Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,177 ill	First thing is take the springs throw em as far as possible either weld it zip tie put screw in the advance plate so it can't move , put back in set timing at 2500 total of 32-34 deg see how runs!

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477402 08/03/13 10:39 PM 08/03/13 10:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	Oh I had erroneously assumed that it was running OK now. You know the chain may be slipped. You did the timing correct: Put the slit on TDC on the tab with the #1 cyl on compression then backing it CCW slightly to 20 then forward to 16 then turning the housing till the rotor is under or nearly under the cap terminal with the #1 plug wire AND at that same place the magnet is dead even with the tooth. From our hillbilly test on the dampener it sounds OK (not slipped) & that leaves jumped chain (which I still doubt for some reason) mainly I think cuz this happened at a steady cruise (if I read that right) or an ign malfunction in the Might Sputter & Die system live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477403 08/03/13 10:53 PM 08/03/13 10:53 PM
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 11,543 chicagoland,usa B buildanother I Live Here
buildanother I Live Here B Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 11,543 chicagoland,usa	I'd make sure there are no vacuum leaks as well, because that will mess you up when you're trying to get the thing in correct tune.

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: RapidRobert] #1477404 08/04/13 09:32 AM 08/04/13 09:32 AM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA D dnd0001 OP member
dnd0001 OP member D Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA	Boy the name for MSD is so right on. Today I ordered a new distibutor. I made a mistake when installing a new pickup. I used a metal feeler gauge.even thought the distributor is on one year old. I now will carry all backups for all my MSD system. I know that is drastic, but needed. Now it make double think the new MSD EFI I was going to put on and already own! No vacuum leaks. I was driving a 60 MPH when this all happened. If the new distributor doesn't solve the idle and hard starting then I'm going to have to bite the bullet and pull the timing cover. I think it was either the timing chain slipped or the MSD system flipped out. I'm also going to pull the oil pump gear and look at the brass bushing and the bottom of the gear. Still thinking its the time chain or the sprocket slipped the key. Wouldn't that explain why it dies when I try to get it down to 16 degrees on the dampener and runs better at 20 and above? If it did slip what degree of timing chain would one tooth cause and which way would it cause the problem, retarding or advancing?

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477405 08/04/13 10:43 AM 08/04/13 10:43 AM
Joined: May 2004 Posts: 137 MN 5 58pwrwgn member
58pwrwgn member 5 Joined: May 2004 Posts: 137 MN	The water pump on my 3.9 started leaking. I decided to change the chain since I was in there. I just put the parts store chain in there. It perked up the engine for a very sort time, then about 10000 miles I let off the gas at 60 mph to come to a stop and it died. I turned the key and it spun over like an engine with a broken timing belt. When I ripped it apart all the teeth on the upper cast iron gear were stripped. Plus I bent the valves.

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: 58pwrwgn] #1477406 08/13/13 08:15 PM 08/13/13 08:15 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA D dnd0001 OP member
dnd0001 OP member D Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA	Well I have been trying everything. The timing cover is coming off to look at the chain. Make sure I do this right. I put it on TDC of #6 on the compression stroke. The should line the two dots on the gears at 6 and 12 correct? Also if I drain the radiator all the way down, with that also remove most of the engine block coolant so it doesn't spill all over when I remove the water pump?

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477407 08/13/13 08:48 PM 08/13/13 08:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: I put it on TDC of #6 on the compression stroke. The should line the two dots on the gears at 6 and 12 correct? Also if I drain the radiator all the way down, with that also remove most of the engine block coolant so it doesn't spill all over when I remove the water pump? (1) correct (2) take out the block drain plugs to get the level further down. live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: RapidRobert] #1477408 08/13/13 09:22 PM 08/13/13 09:22 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA D dnd0001 OP member
dnd0001 OP member D Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA	Do I have too take out the block drains. The headers are in the way. I suppose I can drop both headers if you think just draining the radiator won't take care of it?

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