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Timing chain slip #1477369 07/31/13 10:58 PM 07/31/13 10:58 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA D dnd0001 OP member
dnd0001 OP member D Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA	I have a freshly built 1970 340. It has 1600 miles on it. It was broke in on an engine Dino. While cruising down the road it died. Did all the MSD checks and I have good spark. Put in New Msd box I have laying around. Checked the coil, I have good spark. Replace rotor, cap and pickup. All good. Using a compression tester set it to TDC. The rotor is off about 30-40 degrees. When the engine is running I'm at 45 degrees at idle on the crank shaft and timing light. It should be 16 degrees. What else could it be besides the timing chain. I thought I heard it slapping at idle. Anything else? I'm thinking of pulling the fuel pump and use a remote camera to look at the timing chain. Is it worth fixing or does it mean there a bigger problem. I know a lot of questions, I just frustrated with a new engine build.

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477370 07/31/13 11:29 PM 07/31/13 11:29 PM
Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,291 Kent, Wa 340SHORTY Truck Nut
340SHORTY Truck Nut Joined: Aug 2003 Posts: 12,291 Kent, Wa	Did it get a real TC or a nylon 1 ??? I am truckless..

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: 340SHORTY] #1477371 08/01/13 12:00 AM 08/01/13 12:00 AM
Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours Supercuda About to go away
Supercuda About to go away Joined: Sep 2007 Posts: 14,889 up yours	My finger is long enough that if I pull the fuel pump on an LA I can push on the timing chain and feel the slack. However, I would assume you replaced the timing chain when you went thru the engine so it shouldn't have slack. I forget the spec for slack in the chain, but the FSM should have it. I forget how many degrees off one tooth is, 37 comes to mind but I could be wrong. One thing to remember is that if it gets far enough off you can bend valves. I would not try to run it until you verify the cam timing is correct. This mean you will have to pull the timing cover. They say there are no such thing as a stupid question. They say there is always the exception that proves the rule. Don't be the exception.

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477372 08/01/13 12:19 AM 08/01/13 12:19 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	That is not alot of questions . Get the ten dollar tool that fits in the spark plug hole & find/get the piston at exact TDC & at that point see if the dampener timing slit is within a degree or two of zero on the timing tab. this'll tell you if the dampener has or has not slipped. Pull the plugs to make turning easier & with a 1&1/4" socket/ breaker bar turn the crank till either the #1 or the #6 cyls' rocker arms are both moving & open the same distance (rock back/forth & get em equal) & at that point see if the dampener slit is within a degree or two of being at zero on the timing tab which will tell you if the timing chain has or has not jumped a tooth. Holler back with any news. EDIT Faster yet (Assuming the dampener ain't slipped which that is rare) & it did die when running & even if the dampener slipped when going down the road that would not cause it to die, put the timing mark slit on zero (TDC) on the timing tab & the rotor should be right at or very close to either the #1 or #6 plug wire dist cap terminal. That'll give you an answer in no time Last edited by RapidRobert; 08/01/13 12:30 AM.

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: RapidRobert] #1477373 08/01/13 06:35 AM 08/01/13 06:35 AM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA D dnd0001 OP member
dnd0001 OP member D Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA	I will have to check with the engine builder and see what kind of TC was installed. I did get the compress tester to verify that I was at TDC. The rotor is off at that point about 30-40 degrees. I put it on TDC mark. Why would the timing chain/belt slip with only 1600 miles?I assume it was a timing chain and not a nylon? I will pull the fuel pump and see what the belt is and what kind of slack.

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477374 08/01/13 10:47 AM 08/01/13 10:47 AM
Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,177 ill D dennismopar73 top fuel
dennismopar73 top fuel D Joined: Nov 2009 Posts: 2,177 ill	slack is easy to tell,just take the balancer turn one direction then the other, look how much it moves, you will feel the slack in the chain if it has any! it should be almost nil! All chains will have some, but close to 1 - 2* is normal I would think,?? If it has movement,take chain out replace it! There are companies out there that make a slack adj tensor for loose chains too Last edited by dennismopar73; 08/01/13 10:49 AM.

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477375 08/01/13 11:10 AM 08/01/13 11:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,165 CT GTX MATT master
GTX MATT master Joined: Jun 2006 Posts: 5,165 CT	Quote: I will have to check with the engine builder and see what kind of TC was installed. I did get the compress tester to verify that I was at TDC. The rotor is off at that point about 30-40 degrees. I put it on TDC mark. Why would the timing chain/belt slip with only 1600 miles?I assume it was a timing chain and not a nylon? I will pull the fuel pump and see what the belt is and what kind of slack. How did you verify TDC with a compression tester? Is the harmonic balancer also "zeroed" at this point? Grab your rotor and try to turn it counterclockwise and clockwise. On a small block it should turn clockwise but not counterclockwise. I've seen the MSDs get rusty/crappy/break springs/get stuck with the advance on. Shouldn't make the car stall but it would explain your apparent over-advance. Are you sure its 40 degrees? Now I need to pin those needles, got to feel that heat Hear my motor screamin while I'm tearin up the street

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477376 08/01/13 11:20 AM 08/01/13 11:20 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: The rotor is off at that point about 30-40 degrees. I put it on TDC mark. unless the dist housing got loose & turned (not likely) I'd cut to the chase & pull the dampener/tcover & see what you see. I would first put the #6 piston on TDC compression so you should be 6/12 dot to dot if no slip (which'll help your diagnosis when you get there. My gut tells me we're still missing something here . Holler how it goes live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: GTX MATT] #1477377 08/01/13 11:26 AM 08/01/13 11:26 AM
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 529 SW CO HemiSportFury mopar
HemiSportFury mopar Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 529 SW CO	Did you verify that the distributor is locked down tight and did not slip position while you were driving? Did you check the rotor position before this happened? '64 Sport Fury, 528 Hemi, FiTech EFI, 4-speed, 4.10 Dana 60 '57 Belvedere 2dr sedan, current project in process '19 Cherokee Trail Hawk Elite '03 Ram 2500 CTD HO, 6-speed 214,000 miles and still going strong

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: HemiSportFury] #1477378 08/01/13 02:03 PM 08/01/13 02:03 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA D dnd0001 OP member
dnd0001 OP member D Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA	I will try and answer all the questions. No nylon timing gears. I too thought the distributor slipped while driving as well. I used a compression tester to get on the compression stroke and adjusted it to TDC on the damper. I then pulled the distributor and the gear slot is pointing straight forward. It should be pointing at #1. Before pulling the distributor the rotor was pointing off towards #4. Do not know if the distributor was lose before hand. The distributor gear is pointing off straight when I'm at TDC on the damper that is what is making me thinks its the chain. Thought I heard something raddling, not sure where from. I have check the MSD system very closely. Even replace the pickup, new cap, box and rotor. its only 1 year old and has very little rust. all is loose. The damper gos to 50 and with the car at idle and the ignition light its about 45-46 on the damper. Don't want to take it apart until I've pulled the fuel pump and checked the chain tension and look inside with a borscope camera. Im also going to use the camera to check each cylinder for any damage of a slipped chain. Will pull valve covers to make sure I'm at TDC and not rely on the damper so much. Or go and get the TDC tool.

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477379 08/01/13 02:28 PM 08/01/13 02:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,080 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,080 U.S.S.A.	Quote: I will try and answer all the questions. No nylon timing gears. I too thought the distributor slipped while driving as well. I used a compression tester to get on the compression stroke and adjusted it to TDC on the damper. I then pulled the distributor and the gear slot is pointing straight forward. It should be pointing at #1. Before pulling the distributor the rotor was pointing off towards #4. Do not know if the distributor was lose before hand. The distributor gear is pointing off straight when I'm at TDC on the damper that is what is making me thinks its the chain. Thought I heard something raddling, not sure where from. I have check the MSD system very closely. Even replace the pickup, new cap, box and rotor. its only 1 year old and has very little rust. all is loose. The damper gos to 50 and with the car at idle and the ignition light its about 45-46 on the damper. Don't want to take it apart until I've pulled the fuel pump and checked the chain tension and look inside with a borscope camera. Im also going to use the camera to check each cylinder for any damage of a slipped chain. Will pull valve covers to make sure I'm at TDC and not rely on the damper so much. Or go and get the TDC tool. You need to mechaincally confirm TDC with a stop because it's possible your balancer may have slipped ... not that a slipped balancer would have caused the engine to die like it did .

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: JohnRR] #1477380 08/01/13 02:36 PM 08/01/13 02:36 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,826 las vegas 70AARcuda master
70AARcuda master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 9,826 las vegas	slipped balancer... Tony 70 AARCuda Vitamin C 71 Dart Swinger 360 10.318 @ 128.22(10-04-14 Bakersfield) 71 Demon 360 10.666 @122.41 (01-29-17 @ Las Vegas) 71 Duster 408 (10.29 @ 127.86 3/16/19 Las Vegas)

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: JohnRR] #1477381 08/01/13 04:38 PM 08/01/13 04:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: I then pulled the distributor and the gear slot is pointing straight forward. It should be pointing at #1. The distributor gear is pointing off straight when I'm at TDC on the damper that is what is making me thinks its the chain. Will pull valve covers to make sure I'm at TDC and not rely on the damper so much. Or go and get the TDC tool. actually the gear slot can be straight ahead (parallel) as the bottom tang to rotor clocking (phasing) is different on some dists & it's where the rotor is in relation to the crank/cam that counts. pulling a valve cover & getting rockover to find piston TDC via the timing marks is only valid to confirm that the chain ain't jumped IF the dampener ain't slipped. some of the symptoms ain't adding up & I'm gonna go out on a limb & predict that the dampener/chain are fine & the prob is dist related. Keep up posted! Might just stick a coat hangar down on the piston & get as close to piston TDC as you can & with you're timing being off that much if the dampener slit is then pretty close to TDC on the tab that will pretty much confirm that it ain't the dampener. If you can easily locate or make the tool that'd be good as you will use it in the future. live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: RapidRobert] #1477382 08/01/13 07:56 PM 08/01/13 07:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA D dnd0001 OP member
dnd0001 OP member D Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA	OK I have done the compression test again to get it close. Then I put a pencil down #1 and adjusted the damper until it looks like the pencil is at the top. It's close to TDC marks in the damper. So the damper looks to be OK. I was next going to remove the fuel pump to feel the chain and stick a camera in there to see what I can see just to make sure. Is that a waste of time?

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477383 08/01/13 09:02 PM 08/01/13 09:02 PM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: So the damper looks to be OK. and stick a camera in there to see what I can see just to make sure. Progress! It appears that the dampener is Ok. The camera would help you see any damage & I'm sure you could stick something in there to feel for excessive slack but I would suggest with the dampener slit on TDC on the tab (which you're close to now) that if you're on #1 compression to remove the pass valve cover & turn the crank a bit back & forth till both of #6's rockers are moving/& equal height which is "rockover" & at that point if the chain ain't slipped the dampener will be within a degree or two of TDC on the tab. If with the dampener on TDC of the tab (which you're close to now) if the #1 cyl is on overlap rather than compression then pull the drivers valve cover & get the #1 cyls' rocker arms on "rockover" & at that point same deal see if the dampener slit is within a degree or two of TDC on the tab. If so it ain't slipped. If all is well (no jumped chain) you might not be exactly within a degree of two depending on if its an asymetrical lobe cam and or if it's been advanced but as far as it is off from normal "rockover" is going to tell us something significant here

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: RapidRobert] #1477384 08/01/13 11:10 PM 08/01/13 11:10 PM
Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,025 Las Vegas, NV dodgeboy11 super stock
dodgeboy11 super stock Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 1,025 Las Vegas, NV	Anybody ever have a gear slip on the oil pump drive? Maybe something locked up the oil pump, it broke the pin and slipped the gear on the shaft? About the only thing I can think of that would cause the issues described aside from a skipped timing set, and the timing set on the 318 that was in my challenger was so loose I could almost lift the chain up over the broken teeth on the nylon cam gear and get it to jump, but it didn't. Only other thing I can think of is maybe the key isn't in the keyway on the cam?

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dodgeboy11] #1477385 08/02/13 07:10 PM 08/02/13 07:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA D dnd0001 OP member
dnd0001 OP member D Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 88 Minnesota, USA	I took off both valve covers. Put it on TDC on the compression stroke on #1. Looked at #6 and turned it back and forth until even. one will be going up and the other down and try to stop when they are even? Is that correct? If so I'm showing about 16 degrees off TDC. Both valves on #1 are closed. The distibutor is not on #1. It's between #1 and #8. The car was running at that setting. I think next I will put it on #6 compression stroke and see if with the camera the two marks are lined up. If nothing else check the chain for tension. I too thought about the sproket slipping on the pit. I will pull the fuel pump and see what I see. Just need to make sure I did the rock over correctly? Car running the oil pressure is good unless it slipped and went back in and started to work. I will pull the timing gear and see what the end looks like. By the way I put the borscope down each spark plug hole and didn't see any marks from valves. But the pistons have recesses for the valves. Last edited by dnd0001; 08/02/13 07:15 PM.

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477386 08/03/13 12:47 AM 08/03/13 12:47 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: I took off both valve covers. Put it on TDC on the compression stroke on #1. Looked at #6 and turned it back and forth until even. one will be going up and the other down and try to stop when they are even? Is that correct? If so I'm showing about 16 degrees off TDC. Both valves on #1 are closed. The distibutor is not on #1. It's between #1 and #8. The car was running at that setting. Just need to make sure I did the rock over correctly? Yes you did rockover correct. It would appear? that the chain or something has slipped (I still dont think it's the chain) just because you were cruising down the road when it happened but... If the borescope will let you see if you're on dot to dot (6/12 o'clock) with the dampener slit on TDC then yes take advantage of the tool. I've wanted one of those & now I really want one

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: dnd0001] #1477387 08/03/13 01:06 AM 08/03/13 01:06 AM
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 11,543 chicagoland,usa B buildanother I Live Here
buildanother I Live Here B Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 11,543 chicagoland,usa	Is it running decent at this point? What you say about rotor being between 1 and 8 is correct when initial btdc advance is set. If it was right on #1 at top dead center, it would be doggy and need more advance. It would be a drag to remove cover to find it all lines up.

Re: Timing chain slip [Re: buildanother] #1477388 08/03/13 01:16 AM 08/03/13 01:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska R RapidRobert Circle Track
RapidRobert Circle Track R Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 36,041 Lincoln Nebraska	Quote: It would be a drag to remove cover to find it all lines up. My thoughts too. With the slit on zero on the tab where is the rotor at? & how much can you move the dampener back & forth before the rotor moves? live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth

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