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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Secret Chimp]
#1386238
02/14/13 02:17 PM
02/14/13 02:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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I made my TBs selections back in the mid-late 1980s while I was increasingly prepping my car for national competition with the SCCA Solo II E/Street Prepared class/category. My 1.24 bars are the biggest physical dimension that will fit through the factory 1.25 hex opening. The company I bought them from back then was called California Moparts/Suspension (ahead of their time back then, sadly went out-of-business). You could probably ask Firm Feel to make you some big TBs if you really wanted (they do offer 1.18, but could probably make larger... I've seen 1.22 somewhere recently).
Anyway, for your purposes, don't be afraid of 1.00 (they are still relatively weak); even up to ~1.12 will not be harsh at all, but very rewarding in the progressive difference.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#1386240
02/14/13 07:16 PM
02/14/13 07:16 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
Secret Chimp
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
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Quote:
I made my TBs selections back in the mid-late 1980s while I was increasingly prepping my car for national competition with the SCCA Solo II E/Street Prepared class/category. My 1.24 bars are the biggest physical dimension that will fit through the factory 1.25 hex opening. The company I bought them from back then was called California Moparts/Suspension (ahead of their time back then, sadly went out-of-business). You could probably ask Firm Feel to make you some big TBs if you really wanted (they do offer 1.18, but could probably make larger... I've seen 1.22 somewhere recently).
Anyway, for your purposes, don't be afraid of 1.00 (they are still relatively weak); even up to ~1.12 will not be harsh at all, but very rewarding in the progressive difference.
Ha, I wish I had the money to get one-off parts for this car. But I suppose I can see how going from a stock wheel rate of close to or under 100 lb/in to a 250-270 lb/in 1.12 bar still wouldn't be that stiff.
What about the approach of relatively softer bars + slightly bigger front anti-roll bar? Might that put me more at risk of a skittery ride due to a higher shared spring action between the wheels?
1967 Dodge Coronet Deluxe station wagon
1.03" T-bars, QA1 arms/rods, Cordoba/GM Metric/Volare brake & knuckle, XHDs, Hellwig rear sway, 318 Magnum w/ air gap, 727, 3.23s
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Secret Chimp]
#1386241
02/14/13 07:54 PM
02/14/13 07:54 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
racealittle
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
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I am in the process of buying some 1.03 PST torsion bars from another member here. I called PST and asked them what their recommendation and what the spring rate was. They told me they would make the car handle like it was on rails (with a sb), but would be very harsh with less travel and feel like a modern car. This is with a 1974 Challenger. They would not dislose the spring rate.
I bought them anyway. I think you guys know what you are talking about. I also bought the bilstein rcd shocks for a lowered suspension.
There will be Hothckis upper control arms and strut bars. Also a Helwig 1.25 hollow front bar, xhd springs with the dr. diff 1.5" spring relocation kit that has two front location mounting positions for the springs. I only have a factory rear bar at this time that will be played with to try and determine my real need.
It is all kind of hodge podge, but that is what the budget has allowed up to this point.
Last edited by racealittle; 02/15/13 12:41 AM.
Too many cars, too many parts, too little coin, too little space to work in, too little time left to make it all happen!
Update: down to one ride, still too many parts, a little more jingle in the pocket, gaining space, and it's going to happen this year!
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: racealittle]
#1386242
02/15/13 12:49 AM
02/15/13 12:49 AM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
Secret Chimp
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
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Quote:
I am in the process of buying some 1.03 PST torsion bars from another member here. I called PST and asked them what their recommendation and what the spring rate was. They told me they would make the car handle like it was on rails (with a sb), but would be very harsh with less travel and feel like a modern car. This is with a 1974 Challenger. They would not dislose the spring rate.
I bought them anyway. I think you guys know what you are talking about. I also bought the bilstein rcd shocks for a lowered suspension.
There will be Hothckis upper control arms and strut bars. Also a Helwig 1.25 hollow front bar, xhd springs with the dr. diff 1.5" spring relocation kit that has two front location mounting positions for the springs. I only have a factory rear bar at this time that will be played with to try and determine my real need.
It is all kind of hodge podge, but that is what the budget has allowed up to this point.
I'm interested to see what you think, especially with others saying 1.24 inch bars aren't that bad on the street!
1967 Dodge Coronet Deluxe station wagon
1.03" T-bars, QA1 arms/rods, Cordoba/GM Metric/Volare brake & knuckle, XHDs, Hellwig rear sway, 318 Magnum w/ air gap, 727, 3.23s
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Secret Chimp]
#1386243
02/15/13 04:48 PM
02/15/13 04:48 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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A 1.03 TB will make it "...handle like its on rails"?.. Keep trying.. its a complete package, not just TBs alone. Maybe someone can adjust to excessive lean and dive and lift and then think they're handling on rails? 1.03 TBs are still relatively weak, and you won't know what you're missing until you try progressively larger TBs, and with other matching components.
Using the 1.24 TBs on the "street, for everyday driving", is not advisable unless you bare to adjust and balance the suspension, and the tire/air pressure, etc. Is it barable?... absolutely per my standards! And when I do drive my car on the "street/hwy" its with 60-series BFG T/As... a decent tire, though not a hi-perf tire, but decent for the "street/hwy" (and even occasional hi-speed road course touring events).
You won't go wrong with something like a 1.03, for the "street", but you can do better... for the street/everyday driving, such as 1.06, 1.10, 1.12... you will NOT regret it! Take my advice as I've tried many different TBs in my Challenger, but I've also concentrated to truly make my car (T/A) "handle like its on rails"... just ask someone who has driven my car before? The 1.03 TBs are not for competition, and I know you're not intending to do that.
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: NANKET]
#1386245
02/15/13 06:47 PM
02/15/13 06:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,393
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,393
Pikes Peak Country
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Quote:
What about the approach of relatively softer bars + slightly bigger front anti-roll bar? Might that put me more at risk of a skittery ride due to a higher shared spring action between the wheels?
That is one approach you could look at. Problem is you can't get a big enough sway bar to produce comparable results unless you get into fabrication. Old mopars sorely lack for rate, but even with this approach, it wouldn't be too skittish.
When I did the analysis on my car some time ago, I got very similar roll rates for .96 t-bars with a 1.25 solid s-bar as I did with 1.22 t-bars and 1.125 s-bar. At the time, I could get 1.22 t-bars for $180 a pair. The 1.25 s-bar was $350. I went the cheap route. Now days, you can't find the 1.22 t-bars anymore, much less 1.24 t-bars, as they are no longer being produced. In the meantime, 1.25 to 1.375 s-bars are available and cost comparable.
Quote:
I am in the process of buying some 1.03 PST torsion bars from another member here. I called PST and asked them what their recommendation and what the spring rate was. They told me they would make the car handle like it was on rails (with a sb), but would be very harsh with less travel and feel like a modern car. This is with a 1974 Challenger. They would not dislose the spring rate.
See my response about the 4th reply down in this string about my take on the whole "on rails" harshness perception.
For rate, figure a 1.0 is 175#, and 1.06 is 225#, split the difference and your 1.03 would be approximately 200#. I'm surprised they wouldn't tell you that. Maybe they don't know.
Quote:
I'm interested to see what you think, especially with others saying 1.24 inch bars aren't that bad on the street!
Also see my response way above about perception and keep in mind that Mitch has been prepping and driving his car in competition for years, so his perception of rough may be entirely different than yours. Also keep in mind he gave you some caveats about going big as well.
Quote:
When is someone going to bring up the rear suspension and the relationship to the front?
OK, I will bring it up.
So, what does the possibly 46 year old weak rear leaf springs bring to the equation of large diameter torsion bars?
Well, Mitch has mentioned system in a couple of posts so far. Yes, his leafs are old, but as a wagon, he was blessed with springs that had 20% greater load capacity (not jsut rate, remember this thread from way back: https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...=1#Post7193764) right out of the factory, so they may have settled into a decent rate by now and may match up better than you would anticipate, especially given that old mopars wwere hugely undersprung in the front end from the factory and they seem even more so by current standards. But, you are right, they need to match. In my experience, .96 t-bars with a 1.125 s-bar is still compatible with XHD leafs springs, so seceret chimp is probably still in the realm of okay.
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1386246
02/15/13 08:06 PM
02/15/13 08:06 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
Secret Chimp
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
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I'm definitely not considering 1.24s or anything close to that for my car. At this point I'm just wondering if 1.00s will be enough for me. People seem to have very different butt-o-meters and I'm probably a bit further up the scale with my comfort zone than others, but I'm not sure by how much. And my rear leaves probably need some help eventually - this is how the rear sits with half a tank of gas. It used to have a bit of a rake to it after I removed the lowering blocks that came with the car without readjusting the tbars, but I've since twisted the life out of them a bit (car was a family car for most of its life before living in someone's driveway and then being bought by a guy who just drove it to work on the highway once a well - then I put a 4 barrel on it and started being mean to it)  That being said, it seems like a fairly neutral to tail-happy car right now. I may upsize my tires (width-wise, only 215s on there right now) before I try anything with the rear end depending on how much stiffening up the front shifts the balance to understeer. Though since the subject was brought up, would stock wagon spring replacements from ESPO or someone likely be sufficient for the middle-of-the-road-erring-on-stiffer front end setup I may end up picking?
1967 Dodge Coronet Deluxe station wagon
1.03" T-bars, QA1 arms/rods, Cordoba/GM Metric/Volare brake & knuckle, XHDs, Hellwig rear sway, 318 Magnum w/ air gap, 727, 3.23s
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Secret Chimp]
#1386247
02/18/13 05:03 PM
02/18/13 05:03 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 757
Toronto, Ont, Canada
boydsdodge
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 757
Toronto, Ont, Canada
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Sorry for the repeat from your other post, but I just have to say it again because it all worked so well from before and after on this car.
I just did my 67 Coronet Wagon, one of the best improvements I did was install the Firm Feel front and rear sway bars, Bilstein shocks and 1" torsion bars, Cop 12"disc brakes.
15x7/15x8 wheels with 245/60 frt and 275/60 rear.
I also rebuilt the complete front end with C-body tie rods and moog offset bushings.
Set up the alignment pretty close to what I wanted but will do for now.
I just noticed your in Washington, go for a road trip to Firm Feel they are out your way.
Ask them what Jackson in Toronto bought for his 67 Wagon.
Keep your rear springs just get them re arched to factory spec witch is 8" to center of spring when out of car.
The guy at spring shop will know how to measure, get him to install new front eye bushings as well.
I also installed new urethane shackle bushings.
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1386248
02/20/13 07:07 PM
02/20/13 07:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
racealittle
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
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So going from a torsion bar that measures .906 and going to 1.03 would be just about doubling the spring rate?
Too many cars, too many parts, too little coin, too little space to work in, too little time left to make it all happen!
Update: down to one ride, still too many parts, a little more jingle in the pocket, gaining space, and it's going to happen this year!
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: racealittle]
#1386249
02/21/13 04:35 PM
02/21/13 04:35 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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The 1.03 is still relatively weak, but you'll notice some difference/improvement and better satisfaction. However, try not to be mis-lead that "doubling" the spring rate will make a huge difference (perhaps thinking much stiffer)... again, because the factory TBs were very weak to begin with... the car companies were concerened about nice confortable smoot rides far greater than how well they handled (including dive/lift).
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#1386250
02/21/13 04:40 PM
02/21/13 04:40 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,661
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,661
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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Just go back to what I posted about my car when comparing the ride between the 115# stock, and 300# springs I installed. Also the 300# springs are 1" shorter than stock.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: amxautox]
#1386251
02/21/13 04:47 PM
02/21/13 04:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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AMX... you're referring to coil springs... (for all here to be understood).. as well as being shorter/stiffer.... I've always been a supporting fan of the AMX cars.. awesome with tons of potential in competition!
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: amxautox]
#1386253
02/21/13 05:00 PM
02/21/13 05:00 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,661
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,661
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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Oh ya, that is why I also posted that you can't really compare torsion bars to coils, and so for him to forget about the Miata and just compare e-body car with itself with the different bars.  I merely used my car as a comparison with itself and it's old ride and it's new ride, and any car will be the same, when compared with itself using different spring rates.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Pauls69]
#1386257
02/22/13 07:56 PM
02/22/13 07:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
racealittle
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
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I received my PST 1.03 bars and I decided to measure them with a 1-2" mic. The left bar is 1.10 and the right bar is 1.09. Some of the dimension is the black powder coat. The measurements are consistent for the length of the bars. I think that these will be a good baseline to start tuning the suspension.
Too many cars, too many parts, too little coin, too little space to work in, too little time left to make it all happen!
Update: down to one ride, still too many parts, a little more jingle in the pocket, gaining space, and it's going to happen this year!
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