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Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
#1386218
02/12/13 04:45 PM
02/12/13 04:45 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
Secret Chimp
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
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I'm considering getting some Just Suspension 1.00 inch bars for my 318 Coronet wagon. If the wheel rate on them is roughly 175-185 like most bars seem to be, it fits the whole 1/10th the front end weight, I would assume (fully laden this thing is 3800 pounds and I'm sure at least half that's over the front wheels).
My concern is losing too much ride comfort - I do want to improve handling but if I want to buck and chop down the highway along with my handling, I have my Miata for that. Should 1.00 bars be a good balance for a big car like mine, or would it be a better idea to use .960s?
1967 Dodge Coronet Deluxe station wagon
1.03" T-bars, QA1 arms/rods, Cordoba/GM Metric/Volare brake & knuckle, XHDs, Hellwig rear sway, 318 Magnum w/ air gap, 727, 3.23s
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Secret Chimp]
#1386219
02/12/13 05:06 PM
02/12/13 05:06 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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I would say those would be a good choice for that car.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Viol8r]
#1386221
02/12/13 07:47 PM
02/12/13 07:47 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
Secret Chimp
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
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Quote:
Nothing wrong with a 1.00" bar but with that combo and a 318, I would stay with a .960". If you are looking for a little roll resistance, step up to a 1 1/8" sway bar. That way you do not hurt the ride quailty too much.
I am assuming you are not hitting the track with the car!
No not hitting the track, but I run the car about 1 1/2 inch below stock ride height up front so I figure the extra rate might be handy for staying away from the stops? I don't mind being a tad on the flinty side, I just have a hard time understanding what the different rates really mean. I'm used to thinking of hundreds of inch-pounds for coil springs (for a car that literally weighs half of what this does).
BTW looks like you live not too far from me, I'll keep an eye out for your Charger later this spring 
1967 Dodge Coronet Deluxe station wagon
1.03" T-bars, QA1 arms/rods, Cordoba/GM Metric/Volare brake & knuckle, XHDs, Hellwig rear sway, 318 Magnum w/ air gap, 727, 3.23s
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Secret Chimp]
#1386223
02/12/13 07:55 PM
02/12/13 07:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,394
Pikes Peak Country
TC@HP2
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,394
Pikes Peak Country
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The problem with ride quality, or even handling for that matter, is that there is no yardstick by which to measure it easily. For power and speed there are m.p.h. and e.t. Those are both readily recognized standards that most everyone understands. However, how do you quantify ride harshness? How do you define hanlding? Sure it is easy to say a car pulls .8G, but what does that really translate to in feel, even if you have a means to measure G force, which most people don't.
I spent a lot of years in competition cars with bronze suspension bushings and 1000# spring rates that only weighed 3000# total. Harshness has a whole different perspective to me than someone who has spent most of their adult driving life in a Lincoln and has decided to get a muscle car they missed out on in their youth and suddenly the thing seems harsh with all the OEM style components. I've seen guys complain that the stock .92 t-bars in a 440 car are too harsh and other that say the 1.12 bars are perfect for their small block cars. Its a wide range of opinion.
The best I can suggest is to pick components with an end goal in mind, and buy the best shocks you are willing to pay for. Shocks control the suspension sytem much like a cam controls an engine. Cheap out on either and a good combination parts parts can perform poorly. Match them together and an average combo can perform outstandingly.
If you want a comparison to coil springs that you may be used to with your Miata, what do those 100s of inch pound springs translate to in actual wheel rate? Torsion bars in a classic mopar are 1:1 ratio, so their published spring rates are the same as their wheel rates. Any coil spring car will have a motion ratio associated with it that reduces the coil rate to a wheel rate. For example, in a classic chevy this rate is almost half, so an 800# Camaro springs has roughly the same rate as a 1.22 torsion bar at 400# of wheel rate. Does that help break it down some?
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: TC@HP2]
#1386224
02/12/13 08:12 PM
02/12/13 08:12 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
Secret Chimp
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
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Quote:
The problem with ride quality, or even handling for that matter, is that there is no yardstick by which to measure it easily. For power and speed there are m.p.h. and e.t. Those are both readily recognized standards that most everyone understands. However, how do you quantify ride harshness? How do you define hanlding? Sure it is easy to say a car pulls .8G, but what does that really translate to in feel, even if you have a means to measure G force, which most people don't.
I spent a lot of years in competition cars with bronze suspension bushings and 1000# spring rates that only weighed 3000# total. Harshness has a whole different perspective to me than someone who has spent most of their adult driving life in a Lincoln and has decided to get a muscle car they missed out on in their youth and suddenly the thing seems harsh with all the OEM style components. I've seen guys complain that the stock .92 t-bars in a 440 car are too harsh and other that say the 1.12 bars are perfect for their small block cars. Its a wide range of opinion.
The best I can suggest is to pick components with an end goal in mind, and buy the best shocks you are willing to pay for. Shocks control the suspension sytem much like a cam controls an engine. Cheap out on either and a good combination parts parts can perform poorly. Match them together and an average combo can perform outstandingly.
If you want a comparison to coil springs that you may be used to with your Miata, what do those 100s of inch pound springs translate to in actual wheel rate? Torsion bars in a classic mopar are 1:1 ratio, so their published spring rates are the same as their wheel rates. Any coil spring car will have a motion ratio associated with it that reduces the coil rate to a wheel rate. For example, in a classic chevy this rate is almost half, so an 800# Camaro springs has roughly the same rate as a 1.22 torsion bar at 400# of wheel rate. Does that help break it down some?
It does - the shocks/springs on Miatas mount fairly far out on the arms. I found a wheel rate calculator and the 318lb/in springs I have up front are supposedly about a 140lb wheel rate. So... I'm not quite sure what that means when you have a ton over the front end with more suspension travel than half a ton and half the suspension travel. Probably acceptable? I know it's still not apples-to-apples. I'm going to buy RCD shocks for the car eventually, for some reason it sounds better to me to buy bars first and then shocks. I've made myself a suspension shopping list for the car, so to speak - I'm definitely not slapping parts at it to see what happens, I just can't buy everything at once (well I could but I'd get in trouble)
1967 Dodge Coronet Deluxe station wagon
1.03" T-bars, QA1 arms/rods, Cordoba/GM Metric/Volare brake & knuckle, XHDs, Hellwig rear sway, 318 Magnum w/ air gap, 727, 3.23s
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Secret Chimp]
#1386225
02/12/13 08:19 PM
02/12/13 08:19 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,664
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
amxautox
Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
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Still Retired. Still Posting on Moparts. A Lot.
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 96,664
On The Boat, On The Lake, Wa. ...
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Just think of it in comparison of one car to itself. If the stock springs are rated at 115 pounds per inch stock, then 300 pounds per inch would be great. If you try to compare 2 cars with different springs, like coil vs torsion bars, then you'll just confuse yourself, most of the time.
So ignore the Miata, and just concentrait on the Mopar.
Example - my AMX has front 115 lbs factory, and I installed 300# springs. They work great in the autocross and aren't rough riding on the street. For road course I'd want 400 to 450 # springs. And those would be getting a little rough riding on the street.
Tom
"Everyone should believe in something; I believe I'll go fishing."
-Henry David Thoreau
Men and fish are alike. They both get into trouble when they open their mouths
author unknown
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Skeptic]
#1386227
02/12/13 09:03 PM
02/12/13 09:03 PM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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I was of the thinking that the wagon uses pretty stiff rear springs and wouldnt respond the same as a regular B body. If Bilsteins are in your future I still give a nod to the 1.00s.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Secret Chimp]
#1386228
02/12/13 09:12 PM
02/12/13 09:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
Viol8r
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 780
Woodinville, WA
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Quote:
Quote:
Nothing wrong with a 1.00" bar but with that combo and a 318, I would stay with a .960". If you are looking for a little roll resistance, step up to a 1 1/8" sway bar. That way you do not hurt the ride quailty too much.
I am assuming you are not hitting the track with the car!
No not hitting the track, but I run the car about 1 1/2 inch below stock ride height up front so I figure the extra rate might be handy for staying away from the stops? I don't mind being a tad on the flinty side, I just have a hard time understanding what the different rates really mean. I'm used to thinking of hundreds of inch-pounds for coil springs (for a car that literally weighs half of what this does).
BTW looks like you live not too far from me, I'll keep an eye out for your Charger later this spring
Tell you what, if you can be patient, we are building a customer car right now that is a BB car using .960 bars and an 1 1/8" sway bar with Bilsteins. Viper brakes and some other goodies. Fairly mild build on a 1968 Charger platform. None the less, you can come to the shop and I will let you take feel it out. We have several cars here ranging from .960 to 1.12 in my car. This car should be together in a month or so.
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Viol8r]
#1386229
02/12/13 09:25 PM
02/12/13 09:25 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,395
The Pale Blue Dot
Skeptic
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,395
The Pale Blue Dot
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Nothing wrong with a 1.00" bar but with that combo and a 318, I would stay with a .960". If you are looking for a little roll resistance, step up to a 1 1/8" sway bar. That way you do not hurt the ride quailty too much.
I am assuming you are not hitting the track with the car!
No not hitting the track, but I run the car about 1 1/2 inch below stock ride height up front so I figure the extra rate might be handy for staying away from the stops? I don't mind being a tad on the flinty side, I just have a hard time understanding what the different rates really mean. I'm used to thinking of hundreds of inch-pounds for coil springs (for a car that literally weighs half of what this does).
BTW looks like you live not too far from me, I'll keep an eye out for your Charger later this spring
Tell you what, if you can be patient, we are building a customer car right now that is a BB car using .960 bars and an 1 1/8" sway bar with Bilsteins. Viper brakes and some other goodies. Fairly mild build on a 1968 Charger platform. None the less, you can come to the shop and I will let you take feel it out. We have several cars here ranging from .960 to 1.12 in my car. This car should be together in a month or so.
that's an offer that's hard to beat, I'd get an o.k. from the owner first BTW. 
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Viol8r]
#1386230
02/12/13 10:40 PM
02/12/13 10:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
Secret Chimp
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Nothing wrong with a 1.00" bar but with that combo and a 318, I would stay with a .960". If you are looking for a little roll resistance, step up to a 1 1/8" sway bar. That way you do not hurt the ride quailty too much.
I am assuming you are not hitting the track with the car!
No not hitting the track, but I run the car about 1 1/2 inch below stock ride height up front so I figure the extra rate might be handy for staying away from the stops? I don't mind being a tad on the flinty side, I just have a hard time understanding what the different rates really mean. I'm used to thinking of hundreds of inch-pounds for coil springs (for a car that literally weighs half of what this does).
BTW looks like you live not too far from me, I'll keep an eye out for your Charger later this spring
Tell you what, if you can be patient, we are building a customer car right now that is a BB car using .960 bars and an 1 1/8" sway bar with Bilsteins. Viper brakes and some other goodies. Fairly mild build on a 1968 Charger platform. None the less, you can come to the shop and I will let you take feel it out. We have several cars here ranging from .960 to 1.12 in my car. This car should be together in a month or so.
WOw thanks, that'd be incredibly helpful. Let me know when it's done and if the owner's OK with me doodling around in the parking lot or whatever.
1967 Dodge Coronet Deluxe station wagon
1.03" T-bars, QA1 arms/rods, Cordoba/GM Metric/Volare brake & knuckle, XHDs, Hellwig rear sway, 318 Magnum w/ air gap, 727, 3.23s
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Skeptic]
#1386231
02/12/13 10:44 PM
02/12/13 10:44 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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What size wheels do you have on the car? I find the wheel size makes more difference than the spring rate. With 20's and a 35 profile it will ride like a rock wagon, put some 15" with a 70 profile and it will ride a lot nicer.
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Secret Chimp]
#1386232
02/12/13 10:50 PM
02/12/13 10:50 PM
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Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 801
central CT
cudazappa
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 801
central CT
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According to my scientific "girlfriend" test: Car: 71 Challenger 318/Auto Before: stock t-bars and sway bar, no name shocks, 195/70 14 tires and stock buckets Girlfriend: no complaints about ride After: 1" t-bars 1 1/8" sway bar 17x8s with 245/45s rather hard "sport" seats Girlfriend: Not a harsh ride (and yes, I asked) My comment: Definitely firmer than stock. Swapped on some 235/60 15s and the ride was noticeably plusher (she has not ridden since the addition of a rear sway bar and 15" tires) I say go with the 1". In general they are the most affordable t-bar out there (I picked up mine new for ~$160 from Just Suspension) and if my girlfriend is fine with it, then most people will be. She's the "sensitive" kind.
1971 Challenger
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: 67autocross]
#1386233
02/12/13 10:52 PM
02/12/13 10:52 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
Secret Chimp
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
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Quote:
What size wheels do you have on the car? I find the wheel size makes more difference than the spring rate. With 20's and a 35 profile it will ride like a rock wagon, put some 15" with a 70 profile and it will ride a lot nicer.
Just 15" steelies with 70 tires.
1967 Dodge Coronet Deluxe station wagon
1.03" T-bars, QA1 arms/rods, Cordoba/GM Metric/Volare brake & knuckle, XHDs, Hellwig rear sway, 318 Magnum w/ air gap, 727, 3.23s
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Secret Chimp]
#1386234
02/12/13 11:28 PM
02/12/13 11:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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It will ride fine, you could always drop a few pounds of air out of the tires if you are driving on rough roads.
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Secret Chimp]
#1386235
02/13/13 01:50 AM
02/13/13 01:50 AM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,310
Walnut Creek, CA
blown340
master
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master
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,310
Walnut Creek, CA
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Personally I prefer a slightly softer bar with the best shocks you can afford for a street car. The bigger bars are always better for track use and hard street use on smooth roads. However for real world back road 8/10ths driving I think the slightly softer bar will give you better overall control and feel of the road as the extra wheel travel it affords over bumps will better allow the shock to do its job of keeping the tire in contact with the road. I used to live in Renton and have .960 bars, koni red shocks (old school!) and firm feel sway bars with 255/45/17 tires on my challenger. I was always very happy with the combo on the backroads up there where perfect pavement isn't always to be found mid corner. That said, if you go with the softer bar to allow a little more wheel travel over bumps, you have to get your alightment right and eliminate bumpsteer. The shock works better with more wheel travel, but its all completely negated if your steering angle is changing from bump steer as the wheel is moving up and down. Just my The pic is from a fun day taking my challenger up the twisties on Mt. Rainier in 2005. -Jon
70 challenger convertible. 340/5 speed. blown, intercooled, efi, blah blah blah
71 valiant scamp 318/A833OD/AC/PS
00 dakota RC 4.7L 5 spd autoX'r. SRT10/T56 swap in process
73 W200 Power wagon, PTO winch, 4 spd
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Secret Chimp]
#1386236
02/13/13 04:56 PM
02/13/13 04:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
Mopar Mitch
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,442
NW Chicago suburban area
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I've tried many different TBs with my Challenger... used primarily for competition autocross (med + hi-speed) and I've always encouraged stepping up the stiffness to those of us who want better handling cars... but it becomes an overall package of items. You will not be dissapointed if you choose the 1.00 TBs.. and... you will barely even notice any difference fro your stock bars.... then.. you'll begin wondering what a little stiffer bar would feel like. My suggestion.. if you're willing to step up on the TBs for your wagon, at least get those 1.00 TBs.. along with a decnt set of quality shocks, and learn to adjust your ride quality with reasonable tire pressure... 70 series will be softer than 60-series, etc.
I eventually stepped all the way up to 1.24 TBs.. and its occasionally driven on the street/hwy with BFG T/a 60-series tires.. a very nice ride on the street/hwy! (competition raced with 275-45-16s)
Mopar Mitch
"Road racers and autocrossers go in deeper and come out harder!"... and rain never stops us from having fun with our cars... in fact, it makes us better drivers!
Check out MOPAR ACTION MAGAZINE, August 2006 issue for feature article and specs on my autocross T/A!
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Re: Will 1.00 bars be too stiff for me?
[Re: Mopar Mitch]
#1386237
02/13/13 05:23 PM
02/13/13 05:23 PM
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Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
Secret Chimp
OP
super stock
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OP
super stock
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 817
Eugene, Oregon
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Quote:
I've tried many different TBs with my Challenger... used primarily for competition autocross (med + hi-speed) and I've always encouraged stepping up the stiffness to those of us who want better handling cars... but it becomes an overall package of items. You will not be dissapointed if you choose the 1.00 TBs.. and... you will barely even notice any difference fro your stock bars.... then.. you'll begin wondering what a little stiffer bar would feel like. My suggestion.. if you're willing to step up on the TBs for your wagon, at least get those 1.00 TBs.. along with a decnt set of quality shocks, and learn to adjust your ride quality with reasonable tire pressure... 70 series will be softer than 60-series, etc.
I eventually stepped all the way up to 1.24 TBs.. and its occasionally driven on the street/hwy with BFG T/a 60-series tires.. a very nice ride on the street/hwy! (competition raced with 275-45-16s)
I was really waffling here until you posted. I can't even find 1.24s for sale anywhere any more. If those ride good to you living near Chicago then I'm guessing 1.00s will be just fine for me out here!
edit: I was going to buy some used bars at a good price but the numbers he gave belong to smaller bars, not a 1.00 bar... so even if I go for 1.00 I'll wait to see if I can get some seat time or not.
Last edited by Secret Chimp; 02/13/13 07:08 PM.
1967 Dodge Coronet Deluxe station wagon
1.03" T-bars, QA1 arms/rods, Cordoba/GM Metric/Volare brake & knuckle, XHDs, Hellwig rear sway, 318 Magnum w/ air gap, 727, 3.23s
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I should be taking the Auzzie Charger this time around, it's it's turn. 
