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Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? #1377609 01/28/13 05:25 PM 01/28/13 05:25 PM
Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,745 Maryland 340_Dart OP top fuel
340_Dart OP top fuel Joined: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,745 Maryland	I thought I saw a car some time ago that had braided flex line from the master cylinder to the proportioning valve on the frame in place of steel lines. Is this safe and Nhra acceptable to do? It seems to me it would be, but you never know. If anyone has done this, pics would be awesome! Thanks - Andy

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: 340_Dart] #1377610 01/28/13 05:43 PM 01/28/13 05:43 PM
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio Challenger 1 Too Many Posts
Challenger 1 Too Many Posts Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio	Less is better when it comes to braided brake lines. My car would have steel and will give you a better pedal.

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: 340_Dart] #1377611 01/28/13 05:56 PM 01/28/13 05:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	Its acceptable but the more braided you use the spongier the pedal feels (I ran braided line for the whole brake system but I dont like it, I will change it over to steel line)... for as easy as it is to bend up the steel I would go with the steel

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1377612 01/28/13 07:17 PM 01/28/13 07:17 PM
Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 21,345 Marysville, O-H-I-O 70Cuda383 Too Many Posts
70Cuda383 Too Many Posts Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 21,345 Marysville, O-H-I-O	I don't know if there is different grades of the braided brake line or not...but my 05 Durango had braided lines from the master cylinder into the ABS module, and the pedal felt fine. I agree that the more braided you have the spongier the pedal can feel, but I also don't think a few inches will make a huge difference. look at how long the lines are from the frame to the rear axle, and from the frame to the front calipers, what's a few more inches going to do? Photobucket sucks

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: 70Cuda383] #1377613 01/28/13 08:29 PM 01/28/13 08:29 PM
Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 3,502 SOUTH JERSEY HEMIFRED master
HEMIFRED master Joined: Jul 2010 Posts: 3,502 SOUTH JERSEY	Use the line made for brakes and are lined with teflon home of the Sox and Martin Hemi Duster

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: HEMIFRED] #1377614 01/28/13 09:32 PM 01/28/13 09:32 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 37 illinois,u.s. B beezer member
beezer member B Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 37 illinois,u.s.	I had steel line going side to side on my dragster but thought the braided line line looked better, so I changed it. Used the braided line meant for brakes with the teflon lining. My hand brake never got hard and you could watch the braided actually expand when the brakes were applied. The steel line went back on the following week.

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: HEMIFRED] #1377615 01/28/13 09:34 PM 01/28/13 09:34 PM
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio Challenger 1 Too Many Posts
Challenger 1 Too Many Posts Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio	Quote: Use the line made for brakes and are lined with teflon They still flex and can cause soft petal, even short pieces can.

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: beezer] #1377616 01/28/13 09:41 PM 01/28/13 09:41 PM
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio Challenger 1 Too Many Posts
Challenger 1 Too Many Posts Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 28,312 Cincinnati, Ohio	Quote: I had steel line going side to side on my dragster but thought the braided line line looked better, so I changed it. Used the braided line meant for brakes with the teflon lining. My hand brake never got hard and you could watch the braided actually expand when the brakes were applied. The steel line went back on the following week. Me too, I experienced the same thing years ago.

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: Challenger 1] #1377617 01/28/13 11:35 PM 01/28/13 11:35 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,027 Tulsa OK Bad340fish master
Bad340fish master Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,027 Tulsa OK	I made some -3 lines from my MC to prop valve along time ago. I noticed no difference in pedal really. Its been that way for 8-10 years now. 68 Barracuda Formula S 340

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: 340_Dart] #1377618 01/28/13 11:42 PM 01/28/13 11:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,506 Az Crizila master
Crizila master Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,506 Az	Quote: I thought I saw a car some time ago that had braided flex line from the master cylinder to the proportioning valve on the frame in place of steel lines. Is this safe and Nhra acceptable to do? It seems to me it would be, but you never know. If anyone has done this, pics would be awesome! Thanks - Andy Hard line ONLY except to unsprung areas ( axle / caliper, etc). The braided part of a braided line does little ( if any ) control of the line expansion under pressure. It's just a protective cover from external abraision. Fastest 300

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: Crizila] #1377619 01/29/13 08:45 AM 01/29/13 08:45 AM
Joined: May 2004 Posts: 12,387 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY Dragula I Live Here
Dragula I Live Here Joined: May 2004 Posts: 12,387 Taxes & Virus's R-US, NY	I have this on two vehicles from the master down to the prop valve, never had an issue besides getting all the right fittings. I had to do this on my Cuda so I can move the master out the way when I pull the valve cover. '70 Cuda,...605 EFI Hemi Street Car (6.20 best pass, 1.33 60ft) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYw6RA-k5Bk (6.25 at 108.75mph from inside car) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zQEb9uxFng (6.25 at 108mph from outside car) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCvfzsC4NgM (9.9) '66 Barracuda AWB Stretched nose Blown 440 Car in build stage '71 Duster Drag Car 400 Low Deck 512 best 6.002 at 115.44mph https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znuo3jMUXTk

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: Crizila] #1377620 01/29/13 09:23 AM 01/29/13 09:23 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,988 Warren, MI J Jerry master
Jerry master J Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,988 Warren, MI	Quote: The braided part of a braided line does little ( if any ) control of the line expansion under pressure. It's just a protective cover from external abraision. this is absolutely false. the braid is an integral reinforcement to the teflon lining. brake lines work at a few thousand psi and teflon itself would not hold up. the braided brake lines are different than the braided fuel lines. the fuel line braid is there for aesthetics and abrasion resistance. the brake line is braid is there for strength. that being said there are various braided hoses manufacturers and having tested most there is a wide difference in quality between them. the braid needs to be flexible but tight on the core and some of the hoses we worked on had double braided layers. hoses are designed to move when the braid packages are considered they are designed to swell and shorten as well as some amount of twist is acceptable. this is fine when used in a hydraulic system. its not fine when your using it in a brake system with a limited amount of pedal travel and master cylinder piston/stroke volume. For those that had a the spongy pedal i would surmise that the extra volume added by the hoses was identifying the limit of the master cylinder if you went with a larger bore master the spongyness would go away, again this a guess, and would need to be tested. as with all engineered hydraulic systems it is important to consider the entire system when selecting parts, most racers don't and very few people actually understand hydraulics. Superior Design Concepts 2574 Elliott Dr Troy MI 48083 jerry@sdconcepts.com www.sdconcepts.com Facebook page: Superior Design Concepts www.bcrproducts.com

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: Jerry] #1377621 01/29/13 11:58 AM 01/29/13 11:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	For those that had a the spongy pedal i would surmise that the extra volume added by the hoses was identifying the limit of the master cylinder if you went with a larger bore master the spongyness would go away, again this a guess, and would need to be tested. as with all engineered hydraulic systems it is important to consider the entire system when selecting parts, most racers don't and very few people actually understand hydraulics. Well your sorta right and wrong... I first had a larger bore master.... it had a much higher pedal and firmer BUT it was still spongy... the pedal travel was way to short so I went with a smaller bore to get the pedal travel and it did increase the spongy feeling as well... it works fine but has the spongy feel that I dont like.... all due to the growth in the braided line.... it wasnt air in the system either cause I bled it MANY times trying to get the feeling right.. its still that way but in the spring I will dump the braided for the steel(my whole system is all braided) EDIT I have the exact same system on my Rampage BUT with steel line for the most of it other than the normal points that need the flex(2 front wheels and the axle) and that system is perfect Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 01/29/13 12:06 PM.

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1377622 01/29/13 12:27 PM 01/29/13 12:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,988 Warren, MI J Jerry master
Jerry master J Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 6,988 Warren, MI	Mr P body, i believe your correct, the braided hose you used could have had a less tight braid that allowed alot of expansion of the teflon. its hard to say, thats why i said it was a guess. since you seem to have ruled out the too small master, it may be a matter of finding a better hose supplier. just and FYI i am a firm believer in steel lines and only to use hose where absolutely necessary for compliance. Superior Design Concepts 2574 Elliott Dr Troy MI 48083 jerry@sdconcepts.com www.sdconcepts.com Facebook page: Superior Design Concepts www.bcrproducts.com

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: Jerry] #1377623 01/29/13 12:40 PM 01/29/13 12:40 PM
Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI MR_P_BODY Master
MR_P_BODY Master Joined: Jun 2003 Posts: 52,972 Romeo MI	Quote: Mr P body, i believe your correct, the braided hose you used could have had a less tight braid that allowed alot of expansion of the teflon. its hard to say, thats why i said it was a guess. since you seem to have ruled out the too small master, it may be a matter of finding a better hose supplier. just and FYI i am a firm believer in steel lines and only to use hose where absolutely necessary for compliance. It was suppose to be the best braided brake line out there BUT with the whole system being braided, even a small amount of growth over the whole system will really add up... I did the braided for 2 reasons.. looks and the ease of the installation... I knew it would have some growth but I didnt think it would be as noticeable .... WRONG EDIT understand its not a lot and works fine but it has that spongy feel and that I dont like Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 01/29/13 12:41 PM.

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: 340_Dart] #1377624 01/29/13 03:51 PM 01/29/13 03:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,141 Phoenix,Az. H hemicop super stock
hemicop super stock H Joined: Apr 2008 Posts: 1,141 Phoenix,Az.	I run braided, high-pressure teflon line from my MC to the proportioning valve, no problem. I'd make sure it can handle the brake pressure as conventional, braidedsteel-over-rubber lines and their fittings may be at their limitfor safe, consistent use. They may cost a bit more, but wel worth it....

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: hemicop] #1377625 01/29/13 04:03 PM 01/29/13 04:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA B G Racing master
B G Racing master Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 9,910 Eighty Four, PA	My car has 100% braided SS line with teflon liner good for over 2000+ line pressure,the same used on heavey equipment on 3800 psi hydrulic systems.It has been on for over 15 years and the pedal feel is great.I have used it on may race cars to plumb the lineloc and prop.valves. Use only the line recommended for the application. [IMG]http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq21/ajcasini/max_zpsdppwd9km.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Braided line for master cyl. to prop valve. Acceptable? [Re: Jerry] #1377626 01/29/13 04:58 PM 01/29/13 04:58 PM
Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,506 Az Crizila master
Crizila master Joined: Oct 2003 Posts: 7,506 Az	Quote: Quote: The braided part of a braided line does little ( if any ) control of the line expansion under pressure. It's just a protective cover from external abraision. this is absolutely false. the braid is an integral reinforcement to the teflon lining. brake lines work at a few thousand psi and teflon itself would not hold up. the braided brake lines are different than the braided fuel lines. the fuel line braid is there for aesthetics and abrasion resistance. the brake line is braid is there for strength. that being said there are various braided hoses manufacturers and having tested most there is a wide difference in quality between them. the braid needs to be flexible but tight on the core and some of the hoses we worked on had double braided layers. hoses are designed to move when the braid packages are considered they are designed to swell and shorten as well as some amount of twist is acceptable. this is fine when used in a hydraulic system. its not fine when your using it in a brake system with a limited amount of pedal travel and master cylinder piston/stroke volume. For those that had a the spongy pedal i would surmise that the extra volume added by the hoses was identifying the limit of the master cylinder if you went with a larger bore master the spongyness would go away, again this a guess, and would need to be tested. as with all engineered hydraulic systems it is important to consider the entire system when selecting parts, most racers don't and very few people actually understand hydraulics. You are absolutely right. I ment to refer to the steel outer jacket ( abraision ) not the braided layer just outside the teflon liner. That being said, Braided line, not matter who the manufacturer, will expand under pressure. The more of it you use, the more pressure loss will occur when peddle pressure remains constant. Sure, you can overcome the loss by adding more peddle pressure, but you will lose some feel and end up with a spongier feeling peddle. Adding more fluid by going to a bigger master bore sure as hell isn't the answer. Other drawbacks include $$$ and about twice the diameter of steel line - gee, I wonder why? Fastest 300

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