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Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!!
[Re: fig426]
#137143
10/16/08 11:00 AM
10/16/08 11:00 AM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
OP
David Walden
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OP
David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
I think Dave is trying to accomplish more with this one other than a perfect car. Correct me if I'm wrong Dave.
Hi Mr. C,
You have correctly assessed some of the rationale of doing this car. The A Body guys have been asking me (a long time) for the same attention that the B & E Body guys have received. It amazes me that people who have never seen the car, or even know what it is, have such definite OPINIONS about it. Even more comical is how one guy emailed me telling me what MY true intentions are concerning this project and not to argue with him otherwise! Maybe he can fill me in on what I think about other factors in my life.  First of all the car will have to be worked on with the same mindset of the previous projects we did. The only difference will be that hundreds of hours on eBay and tens of thousands of dollars will not have to be allocated in finding parts. Some here say that is like shooting fish in a barrel?!? Since when did spending time looking for parts on eBay, Hemmings, etc…. constitute “factory documentation and research.” The CAR is the research!! I feel fortunate in not having to go through those arduous, (usually) necessary evils. As a matter of fact Chris, look at all the grief I took from these same individuals who did nothing but argue and nit pick about all the different parts that I DID have to locate after the fact. My Challenger was a complete car but the parts were in a condition that did not allow me to reuse the majority of them during the restoration. I was criticized for THAT particular scenario and now that I have found a way to keep ALL the original parts with the car, I am STILL getting chastised for! (I know the underlying basis of their criticism though.)
This car will still require a tremendous amount of time and artistic effort to end up with the desired results. ALL the bare metal will have to be reconditioned to look like new. The engine will have to be pulled and repainted to look like new again. The transmission will have to be detailed to look like new. The engine bay, K Frame, Rear End Housing, Power Steering Unit, Trunk, etc…. will have to be repainted to look like new again. The reoccurring theme here is “like new again.” I personally do not like the looks of a 40 year old survivor vehicle. While they are very nice, they do not look NEW. I enjoy making them look like factory fresh without the final result looking deliberate or “home made.”
For those who can’t understand how this helps the reproduction market, it is quite simple. As I go about disassembling AND DOCUMENTING EVERY SINGLE SCREW AND THE DIRECTION THEY WERE FACING WHEN REMOVED, I will have perfect examples of parts to format the new reproductions from. That is the beauty of this ordeal. Having pristine samples to make new products from. Isn’t that always a big complaint in the reproduction market? The parts just don’t look or fit just right! Nowhere did I ever say that these reproduction products will end up on this car. The original parts are nice enough for me to rework and restore them to look like new. I personally think it is beneficial NOT to have to spend endless hours replacing and having to find NOS parts. (Not to mention the economics of the project.) I think I have already put enough time and effort in that particular area with the last two cars. The first car was an incorrectly restored vehicle that we re-did and the critics said, “big deal…you took the characteristics from other original cars and put them back on yours”. The next car was a completely original car that needed many parts to be replaced with NOS parts. The critics came back with, “yeah but you didn’t put the correct NOS parts on the car that you should have”. Now I have a survivor and they have done a 180 from the FIRST scenario and are griping about this! Do you get the feeling it is not about what is being done with the cars but something that goes a little deeper with these people? For those that don’t appreciate or approve of the direction of this project….tough! Take care of yourselves and enjoy your life (and cars) the way you see fit.
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Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!!
[Re: ECS]
#137144
10/16/08 11:22 AM
10/16/08 11:22 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,467
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,467
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
I think Dave is trying to accomplish more with this one other than a perfect car. Correct me if I'm wrong Dave.
Hi Mr. C,
You have correctly assessed some of the rationale of doing this car. The A Body guys have been asking me (a long time) for the same attention that the B & E Body guys have received. It amazes me that people who have never seen the car, or even know what it is, have such definite OPINIONS about it. Even more comical is how one guy emailed me telling me what MY true intentions are concerning this project and not to argue with him otherwise! Maybe he can fill me in on what I think about other factors in my life. First of all the car will have to be worked on with the same mindset of the previous projects we did. The only difference will be that hundreds of hours on eBay and tens of thousands of dollars will not have to be allocated in finding parts. Some here say that is like shooting fish in a barrel?!? Since when did spending time looking for parts on eBay, Hemmings, etc…. constitute “factory documentation and research.” The CAR is the research!! I feel fortunate in not having to go through those arduous, (usually) necessary evils. As a matter of fact Chris, look at all the grief I took from these same individuals who did nothing but argue and nit pick about all the different parts that I DID have to locate after the fact. My Challenger was a complete car but the parts were in a condition that did not allow me to reuse the majority of them during the restoration. I was criticized for THAT particular scenario and now that I have found a way to keep ALL the original parts with the car, I am STILL getting chastised for! (I know the underlying basis of their criticism though.)
This car will still require a tremendous amount of time and artistic effort to end up with the desired results. ALL the bare metal will have to be reconditioned to look like new. The engine will have to be pulled and repainted to look like new again. The transmission will have to be detailed to look like new. The engine bay, K Frame, Rear End Housing, Power Steering Unit, Trunk, etc…. will have to be repainted to look like new again. The reoccurring theme here is “like new again.” I personally do not like the looks of a 40 year old survivor vehicle. While they are very nice, they do not look NEW. I enjoy making them look like factory fresh without the final result looking deliberate or “home made.”
For those who can’t understand how this helps the reproduction market, it is quite simple. As I go about disassembling AND DOCUMENTING EVERY SINGLE SCREW AND THE DIRECTION THEY WERE FACING WHEN REMOVED, I will have perfect examples of parts to format the new reproductions from. That is the beauty of this ordeal. Having pristine samples to make new products from. Isn’t that always a big complaint in the reproduction market? The parts just don’t look or fit just right! Nowhere did I ever say that these reproduction products will end up on this car. The original parts are nice enough for me to rework and restore them to look like new. I personally think it is beneficial NOT to have to spend endless hours replacing and having to find NOS parts. (Not to mention the economics of the project.) I think I have already put enough time and effort in that particular area with the last two cars. The first car was an incorrectly restored vehicle that we re-did and the critics said, “big deal…you took the characteristics from other original cars and put them back on yours”. The next car was a completely original car that needed many parts to be replace with NOS parts. The critics came back with, “yeah but you didn’t put the correct NOS parts on the car that you should have”. Now I have a survivor and they have done a 180 from the FIRST scenario and are griping about this! Do you get the feeling it is not about what is being done with the cars but something that goes a little deeper with these people? For those that don’t appreciate or approve of the direction of this project….tough! Take care of yourselves and enjoy your life (and cars) the way you see fit.
I agree. I don't understand some of the replys. It's not a big deal for controversy. Just starting with a great condition car. I'm sure it's not the last car on the earth that in its current condition. He might not be the first person to start with a car in this condition. It's what he ends up with and how he gets there that is interesting and of note. 
He's obviously going to take tons of reference pictures and notes. And when you unpeal the onion, you will see things you couldn't when it was together.
Dave please feel feel to use paragraphs. They are helpful.
Last edited by autoxcuda; 10/16/08 11:27 AM.
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Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!!
[Re: ECS]
#137145
10/16/08 11:41 AM
10/16/08 11:41 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
dannysbee
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
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Wow are we having fun yet? I thought hobbies were supposed to be fun. You guy's have fun I'm headed back to the race forum. But before I go I am going to give the point of view of someone on the outside looking in. I am nobody and I know nothing but I am going to say what I think here as I believe there are consequences to the bickering and arrogance I see in some of these posts. I think some of the people posting need to take a step back and consider what a new board member is going to think about all this. You want to turn new blood off to the hobby, I can't think of a better way to do it than the majority of commits made in this thread. 
Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.
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Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!!
[Re: anlauto]
#137148
10/16/08 12:05 PM
10/16/08 12:05 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
OP
David Walden
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OP
David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
Do you think it can be done? Even with small items such as wire harness labels, paper tags etc???
How about a battery? Does it retain it's original 38 year old battery?
You have obviously seen the car Alan, what do you think?
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Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!!
[Re: TWS]
#137150
10/16/08 12:10 PM
10/16/08 12:10 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,957
West Coast, CA
Troy
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,957
West Coast, CA
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This could be a fun project and to be honest with you probably one of the best ones to watch for a couple of reasons. Reason #1) Me personally I do not believe that if a part is NOS, that does not ALWAYS make it correct. Reason #2) There are very few repop parts that are perfect....very few. With repop parts out of the question and NOS parts out the window that only leaves original parts to be used......parts that need to have the correct date codes and sometimes from the same assembly plant as the car your working on. We all know that could be fun!! Reason #3) I'm not even going to get into the "assembly line parts" verses NOS parts debate,,,,,no thank you!! I was very lucky when I did my T/A. 85% of the parts on that car was reusable. I have my stash of NOS parts and when you put them next to some of the original parts, there were no comparison. Me personality, the parts that are on the car....if original....trump and parts book or any NOS part out there. This is just my opinion and my opinion only!!
....there is nothing like driving my 1968 Hemi Dart around town and having people looking at you like you're nuts!!
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Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!!
[Re: quick77rt ]
#137154
10/16/08 02:27 PM
10/16/08 02:27 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,501
N.E. OHIO, USA
A12
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 21,501
N.E. OHIO, USA
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Quote:
Ive read this a and am a bit unclear....if no new parts, no nos parts....isnt that just cleaning up a rare find.
If the org car is just like new to start with, other then cleaning what would it need.
I know of a 320 mile 77 F-body...and it might still have the org battery in it...plastic on the seats, ect..so why rip it apart when its all org???
Clearly its a very different concept, and I think the varied comments might simply reflect the lack of understanding the why and such.
Obviously after the awsome challenger project, it might take some out of the box thinking to top it??
O.E. Gold, with this approach you could never be called out for having the incorrect replacement, reproduction or NOS part on the car being judged, pretty clever eh?
So if you know of a time capsule car that is in absolutely perfect condition with every original part untouched on the car and you clean the windows and put some wax on it you apparently have “restored” it, can enter it in the judging and should have a top point car. No questions about grease zerks, trunk mats, carpet foot pads, etc., because they are all original to the car. I have to give Dave credit for coming up with this approach, very, very clever.  
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Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!!
[Re: A12]
#137155
10/16/08 02:46 PM
10/16/08 02:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,660
Cleveland, OH
TWS
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,660
Cleveland, OH
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Quote:
Quote:
Ive read this a and am a bit unclear....if no new parts, no nos parts....isnt that just cleaning up a rare find.
If the org car is just like new to start with, other then cleaning what would it need.
I know of a 320 mile 77 F-body...and it might still have the org battery in it...plastic on the seats, ect..so why rip it apart when its all org???
Clearly its a very different concept, and I think the varied comments might simply reflect the lack of understanding the why and such.
Obviously after the awsome challenger project, it might take some out of the box thinking to top it??
O.E. Gold, with this approach you could never be called out for having the incorrect replacement, reproduction or NOS part on the car being judged, pretty clever eh?
So if you know of a time capsule car that is in absolutely perfect condition with every original part untouched on the car and you clean the windows and put some wax on it you apparently have “restored” it, can enter it in the judging and should have a top point car. No questions about grease zerks, trunk mats, carpet foot pads, etc., because they are all original to the car. I have to give Dave credit for coming up with this approach, very, very clever.
This is only part of the OE Gold scoring. OE cars are judged on condition as well. The lion's share of his effort (and I believe the whole point in doing this) will be in bringing the entire original car back to "new." I doubt he would be doing this if he didn't think it was enough of a challenge. Otherwise, there would be no point.
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Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!!
[Re: A12]
#137157
10/16/08 03:39 PM
10/16/08 03:39 PM
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
ECS
OP
David Walden
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OP
David Walden
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 1,711
USA
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Quote:
Ive read this a and am a bit unclear....if no new parts, no nos parts....isnt that just cleaning up a rare find.
If the org car is just like new to start with, other then cleaning what would it need.
With all due respect, you have not been reading the specifics and magnitude of the project. It will not consist of just a wipe here and a wipe there. The entire car will be disassembled. Every component will be repainted to look NEW again! While this car looks very very nice, it does not have the same appearance of a NEW car. The interior is pristine. Would some of you guys feel better is we ripped it apart so we could find NOS material to fix it and make it look new again? What we will be doing (with a team of guys) will be taking each ORIGINAL part and making it look exactly like it did when it was new from the factory. Tons of documentation! Tons of research! This might mean an extra coat of paint over the original paint but the "mistakes" and ugly seam sealer will still be evident and visible. It will be finished with the same characteristics that we document and uncover. THE CAR LOOKS LIKE A SURVIVOR. WE WANT IT TO LOOK BRAND NEW AGAIN.
What is it about searching for NOS parts that has suddenly become the mandate for restoring a car? Who made up that new rule? The magnitude of work will STILL be exactly the same EXCEPT WITH THE ORIGINAL PARTS AND PIECES. Are you going to tell me that it is now frowned upon to use (and refinish) the original ball joints, compared to finding, buying and STILL having to refinish NOS ball joints? Please help me understand this new flip flop attitude. Are we going to discredit someone who uses the original parts rather than using NOS parts?!?
You get criticized when NOS parts are used. You get criticized if the original parts are used! You get criticized when reproduction parts are used! Could someone please explain what other options one could use that would be "blessed" by all of the "well wishers" and experts posting on this thread?
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Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!!
[Re: A12]
#137158
10/16/08 04:51 PM
10/16/08 04:51 PM
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Anonymous
Unregistered
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Quote:
you clean the windows and put some wax on it you apparently have “restored” it
man I hope not. i have restored my car at least 10 times in the past year under that definition.
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Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!!
#137159
10/16/08 05:10 PM
10/16/08 05:10 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,957
West Coast, CA
Troy
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 3,957
West Coast, CA
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"You get criticized when NOS parts are used. You get criticized if the original parts are used! You get criticized when reproduction parts are used! Could someone please explain what other options one could use that would be "blessed" by all of the "well wishers" and experts posting on this thread?" Dave, (by the way I hope all is well) Who are you restoring the car for??? For yourself?....The people in the hobby? Or for the people that just want to sture the pot?? This might be a question that you need to answer. I restore cars for the challenge, to push myself and my abilities. I also try to show other people "MY" interpretation of what "I" think these cars look like when they were new. Just my
....there is nothing like driving my 1968 Hemi Dart around town and having people looking at you like you're nuts!!
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Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!!
[Re: Troy]
#137160
10/16/08 05:29 PM
10/16/08 05:29 PM
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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,169
Richmond, VA
rayztoy
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,169
Richmond, VA
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NOS, NORS, Repro, or Original reconditioned, does it really matter?  DAVE, you do IMPECCABLE work, IMHO. Thanks for being an asset to the hobby, sharing your pictures, your knowledge, and reproducing what we need correctly. We are TRULY BLESSED to have you. THANKS!!! 
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Re: TAKING IT TO THE "NEW" NEXT LEVEL!!
[Re: ECS]
#137161
10/16/08 06:00 PM
10/16/08 06:00 PM
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,765
quick77rt
Parts Problem
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Parts Problem
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,765
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Thanks for explaing that, but like others said whatever you do will be nice. Didnt one just do a modified version of your idea to a t/a car a while back...took it all the way down just to clean and freshen. It was semi popular???? Maybe a trip black car. Quote:
Quote:
Ive read this a and am a bit unclear....if no new parts, no nos parts....isnt that just cleaning up a rare find.
If the org car is just like new to start with, other then cleaning what would it need.
With all due respect, you have not been reading the specifics and magnitude of the project. It will not consist of just a wipe here and a wipe there. The entire car will be disassembled. Every component will be repainted to look NEW again! While this car looks very very nice, it does not have the same appearance of a NEW car. The interior is pristine. Would some of you guys feel better is we ripped it apart so we could find NOS material to fix it and make it look new again? What we will be doing (with a team of guys) will be taking each ORIGINAL part and making it look exactly like it did when it was new from the factory. Tons of documentation! Tons of research! This might mean an extra coat of paint over the original paint but the "mistakes" and ugly seam sealer will still be evident and visible. It will be finished with the same characteristics that we document and uncover. THE CAR LOOKS LIKE A SURVIVOR. WE WANT IT TO LOOK BRAND NEW AGAIN.
What is it about searching for NOS parts that has suddenly become the mandate for restoring a car? Who made up that new rule? The magnitude of work will STILL be exactly the same EXCEPT WITH THE ORIGINAL PARTS AND PIECES. Are you going to tell me that it is now frowned upon to use (and refinish) the original ball joints, compared to finding, buying and STILL having to refinish NOS ball joints? Please help me understand this new flip flop attitude. Are we going to discredit someone who uses the original parts rather than using NOS parts?!?
You get criticized when NOS parts are used. You get criticized if the original parts are used! You get criticized when reproduction parts are used! Could someone please explain what other options one could use that would be "blessed" by all of the "well wishers" and experts posting on this thread?
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