Quote:

---

Funny... this is one of those questions I LOVE answering... it's good to give answers from something so similar.

I have had my 360" turbo small block together for about a year now. It's a '91 Roller block. Machined first, then filled with Embecoo 885 after. No signs of ring seal issues at all.

I have an oil temp gauge on it, and it has never even come close to having an oil temp problem. 7qt Milidon Pan, Early 68 water pump, small radiator with single electric fan. The longest I've driven it at a time is probably about an hour. A few times on the freeway, and a few times on surface streets.

Not sure what you're planning for compression (read: heat), but mine is 9.2:1 with an iron head and a VERY small cam (read: lots of cylinder pressure).

I wouldn't worry about it for one second. The next one I do, I won't even bother putting an oil temp gauge on it.

Good luck with your build!

---

Quote:

---

IMO, you can get away without an external oil cooler. You still might want to monitor it ( oil temp gauge ). A quality full synthetic oil would be a must. I run a 408 that is about 3/4 filled. No H20 temp problems and oil hasn't gotten over 215 after about 3/4 hour driving around town. The rest of you set up could make a difference though. My oil supplier said that oil temps in the 250 range is not a problem.

---

Quote:

---

brad penn is good til 280*. my 360 block is short filled and I see 250* often. no oil cooler.

---

Quote:

---

Mine wasn't filled, so I can't comment on that.

I'll just share that my 2010 ram has a digital oil temp display and I've seen 250+ degrees on it when pulling my trailer up long steep hills at 4K+ rpm. This is with standard, nothing special oil from the dealer when they change my oil every 3K miles

I don't think you need to worry about the oil breaking down til beyond that temp. Oil and water temp are closesly related, oil takes longer to build heat, and longer to cool off.

---

Quote:

---

NO ONE mentions about piston-ring-travel and FILLING IT to the second ring travel down-the-bore ?

---

Quote:

---

Dustin, did you ever think about filling that block before you had built it? Anything deter you from it?

That tidbit about your ram is good info...do the trucks come with oil coolers from the factory?

Ideally I would really like to be able to do this WITHOUT a cooler

---

Quote:

---

i ran a pretty tallfilled 340 block on the street,never had any trouble but then again i never had a gauge measuring the oiltemp either.used plain mineral oil also. who knows excesive heat in the oil might have killed my valvesprings alitle earlier and i lost a rollercam (not anything catastrophic, just the lifters starting to make groves in the closing ramps probably from bouncing lifter and valvefloat,wouldnt have been a problem if i had just keept a better eye on valvespring preasure and those valvesprings where far from new)due to loss of valvespringpreasure.
however it might be worse with a stroker since you have much longer piston travel making more heat further down in the bores i would suspect
im one of those that hate extra gauges they just make me nervous.

---

Quote:

---

I haven't seen over 200 under any situation yet. I just run rotella t diesel oil.

I do run e85 though, maybe that has something to do with it...

---

Damn that is low for oil temps...I wonder if the fuel does have something do to with it...Does E85 burn cooler?

Quote:

---

i ran a tall fill in a 360(414)for a long time @13.1comp brad penn or royal puple oil.tons of street driving and track passes no oil temp gauge ran super cool water temps never got over 180degrees.youll have no probs dont even sweat it.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

NO ONE mentions about piston-ring-travel and FILLING IT to the second ring travel down-the-bore ?

---

What do you mean?

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

IMO, you can get away without an external oil cooler. You still might want to monitor it ( oil temp gauge ). A quality full synthetic oil would be a must. I run a 408 that is about 3/4 filled. No H20 temp problems and oil hasn't gotten over 215 after about 3/4 hour driving around town. The rest of you set up could make a difference though. My oil supplier said that oil temps in the 250 range is not a problem.

---

I was hoping you would chime in as I did some searching here before posting and saw your posts about your machinist adding some filler to you stroker block but you had not ran it yet to see if it would overheat.

You mentioned in your other posts quality synthetic oil...What brand oil are you using if you don't mind me asking? As for maximum or dangerous oil temps, is 250 kinda the standard there?

I would definitely invest in a temp gauge at the very least (assuming sending unit in the bottom of the pan, or is there a more accurate location to read from?), but if this will require an external oil cooler im not sure its something I would want to do.

Hopefully some others who may have street driven with filled blocks can offer some input as well

---

Quote:

---

I have run several "half filled" (whatever it means) BB's in the street, and I think there is not much difference in how the small block works. With about a 1/4 fill no problems, with about half fill problems with long highway driving. The oil got hot and lost it's viscosity and the oil pressure came down, something like 30 in the highway and about zero at idle. Synthetic brought that up some 10-15 psi and haven't played with those things ever since. E 85 will definitely make a difference keeping things cooler overall. With ethnol or methanol engines, one problem is getting the oil warm enough. I would use an engine oil cooler in the street with a filled block, although despite of the drop in oil pressure, there never was any sign of damage.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

NO ONE mentions about piston-ring-travel and FILLING IT to the second ring travel down-the-bore ?

---

What do you mean?

---

From what I have been told ... you don't want to fill the block any HIGHER than the lowest part of the second ring travel. BECAUSE you want good piston-heat-transfer into the bore and coolant.

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

IMO, you can get away without an external oil cooler. You still might want to monitor it ( oil temp gauge ). A quality full synthetic oil would be a must. I run a 408 that is about 3/4 filled. No H20 temp problems and oil hasn't gotten over 215 after about 3/4 hour driving around town. The rest of you set up could make a difference though. My oil supplier said that oil temps in the 250 range is not a problem.

---

I was hoping you would chime in as I did some searching here before posting and saw your posts about your machinist adding some filler to you stroker block but you had not ran it yet to see if it would overheat.

You mentioned in your other posts quality synthetic oil...What brand oil are you using if you don't mind me asking? As for maximum or dangerous oil temps, is 250 kinda the standard there?

I would definitely invest in a temp gauge at the very least (assuming sending unit in the bottom of the pan, or is there a more accurate location to read from?), but if this will require an external oil cooler im not sure its something I would want to do.

Hopefully some others who may have street driven with filled blocks can offer some input as well

---

Drilled and taped my drain plug for the oil temp sender. My block is filled well above the freeze plugs. I run Royal Purple 10W40 race oil. Most people don't run oil temps high enough. You want something over 212 just to boil the H20 out of it. I run 4.56 gears, but it's not a street car. Yes, the temp goes up after a pass, but I have a hard time getting the temp up to 170 in staging, so I leave, actually, too cold.

---

Thanks for the info, and picture as well

Quote:

---

E-85 runs 30% more fuel through the engine keeping
the temp lower... hell I have a hard time keeping temp
in my race car with E-85... I always put the temp sensor
in the pan drain plug(just drill and tap for 1/8" pipe)
we did it this way in the lab all the time ...
I'm going to be running trans temp in my Rampage along
with water temp... what I'm doing is using elec gauges
so I will flip switch to check either temp on a single gauge..
like was just said if your temp gets up the pressure
drops.... to me I would monitor the temp for a bit
but if it got over 230 I'd put a cooler on it in a
blink of an eye.... WHY melt down your engine for
the price of a cooler

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

i ran a tall fill in a 360(414)for a long time @13.1comp brad penn or royal puple oil.tons of street driving and track passes no oil temp gauge ran super cool water temps never got over 180degrees.youll have no probs dont even sweat it.

---

Ever had the engine apart to see how the bottom end looked? Was your oil always clean and unburnt when you drained it?

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

i ran a tall fill in a 360(414)for a long time @13.1comp brad penn or royal puple oil.tons of street driving and track passes no oil temp gauge ran super cool water temps never got over 180degrees.youll have no probs dont even sweat it.

---

Ever had the engine apart to see how the bottom end looked? Was your oil always clean and unburnt when you drained it?

---

oil was always fine mind you i changed it often 2-3times a season,never lost any oil pressure not even after crusing a while.i ended up selling it to a memeber still running strong in his demon.i think your probably even ok without it but if you do it half fill i wouldnt worry whatsoever.

---

I change my oil atleast twice a season as well....damn, this is getting tough to make the decision....I would rather not fill it if I don't have to, but I will be pushing well over 600 crank horsepower with spray and would like this thing to last as long as possible...I know an oil cooler really isn't a big deal if it needed one, but its just something else to install and another gauge to watch and worry about

gotta sleep on this one I think lol

Quote:

---

I really debated the idea of a partial fill on mine. I know that I drive lots and lots of street miles in stop and go traffic, and that cooling this thing is at a premium during the summer months - especially since I'm very fond of my AC.

So I chickened out, didn't do the fill and hoped for the best.

I hope I don't regret my decision somewhere along the line.

---

Quote:

---

If you are going to make over 600HP with a stock block, You should ( at least )half fill it - and go aftermarket main caps or a girdle. No question IMO on that one. You should also make sure the block sonic tests real good.

---

Quote:

---

Yes my sender is in the bottom of the pan.

---

Quote:

---

Duner, I know you have a turbo on that dakota...What kinda power at the crank do you estimate you are pushing? Or have you dynoed it? And how long have you had the combo together for?

Did you do anything other special prep to the bottom end? i.e. studded mains, girdle, etc.

---

I put this together in 2006. I hurt a couple of pistons in 2008 and checked everything when replacing them. Everything looked great, no signs of cap walk even - so I put it back together and it's been driving on the street and going to the track pretty much every since.

The bottom end is just a forged Scat (stock 360 stroke) crank and Eagle H-Beams rods with the upgraded ARP rod bolts. Probe pistons. All internal balanced. Block is unfilled and stock 2-bolt mains. No girdle or anything like that. I'm still running the stock bolts for the mains as well. I generally try to keep it under 7,000 rpm - but occasionally mess up and get it to 7300-7500 rpm. I've since switched to a standalone and am using the rev-limiter at 7000 to keep me in line. LOL

I'm not sure what the actual HP is at the crank. Since it's turbo'd - the HP it makes is pretty variable. I've pretty much kept it at the 750rwtq, 550-600 rwhp level most of the time (126-127 mph trap speed), which is where it lives on the street on 91 octane - with excursions into the 700+rwhp range on occasion at the track with race gas. (just turn up the boost) I'm super-conservative with the timing on it, since if I want more power - I just turn up the boost instead of risking detonation looking for every ounce of power by upping the timing. Again, I do also run race gas at the track if I'm going to turn it up.

Pushing 4200# to 133.65 mph is the best so far for documented HP output. (that's when I hurt the pistons) That's thru a 46RE trans and Precision Industries 4,000 convertor. The Wallace calculator says that's 824 hp? I don't push it that hard all the time, but it's fun to shake things up once in a while.

I really believe the turbo setup is way easier on parts than NA or on the bottle.

Someday it will break. I've accepted that fact, but I'm still amazed at how much abuse it continues to take without complaints.... other than transmissions of course LOL

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

If you are going to make over 600HP with a stock block, You should ( at least )half fill it - and go aftermarket main caps or a girdle. No question IMO on that one. You should also make sure the block sonic tests real good.

---

When you say aftermarket main caps, are you referring to the 4 bolt ones? or are there 2 bolts that are available to add strength? I always thought adding 4 bolt caps to a stock block weakened it more than anything

Never been a big fan of girdles...Have always felt that most of the small block designs don't seem like they would do much...but thats just my opinion

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

If you are going to make over 600HP with a stock block, You should ( at least )half fill it - and go aftermarket main caps or a girdle. No question IMO on that one. You should also make sure the block sonic tests real good.

---

When you say aftermarket main caps, are you referring to the 4 bolt ones? or are there 2 bolts that are available to add strength? I always thought adding 4 bolt caps to a stock block weakened it more than anything

Never been a big fan of girdles...Have always felt that most of the small block designs don't seem like they would do much...but thats just my opinion

---

Not a girdle fan ether. Went with Milodon 4 blt main set up on mine.

---

IMO best caps for the small block that going to see street duty.
Ductile iron stong and same expansion rate as the block. Matt

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Duner, I know you have a turbo on that dakota...What kinda power at the crank do you estimate you are pushing? Or have you dynoed it? And how long have you had the combo together for?

Did you do anything other special prep to the bottom end? i.e. studded mains, girdle, etc.

---

I put this together in 2006. I hurt a couple of pistons in 2008 and checked everything when replacing them. Everything looked great, no signs of cap walk even - so I put it back together and it's been driving on the street and going to the track pretty much every since.

The bottom end is just a forged Scat (stock 360 stroke) crank and Eagle H-Beams rods with the upgraded ARP rod bolts. Probe pistons. All internal balanced. Block is unfilled and stock 2-bolt mains. No girdle or anything like that. I'm still running the stock bolts for the mains as well. I generally try to keep it under 7,000 rpm - but occasionally mess up and get it to 7300-7500 rpm. I've since switched to a standalone and am using the rev-limiter at 7000 to keep me in line. LOL

I'm not sure what the actual HP is at the crank. Since it's turbo'd - the HP it makes is pretty variable. I've pretty much kept it at the 750rwtq, 550-600 rwhp level most of the time (126-127 mph trap speed), which is where it lives on the street on 91 octane - with excursions into the 700+rwhp range on occasion at the track with race gas. (just turn up the boost) I'm super-conservative with the timing on it, since if I want more power - I just turn up the boost instead of risking detonation looking for every ounce of power by upping the timing. Again, I do also run race gas at the track if I'm going to turn it up.

Pushing 4200# to 133.65 mph is the best so far for documented HP output. (that's when I hurt the pistons) That's thru a 46RE trans and Precision Industries 4,000 convertor. The Wallace calculator says that's 824 hp? I don't push it that hard all the time, but it's fun to shake things up once in a while.

I really believe the turbo setup is way easier on parts than NA or on the bottle.

Someday it will break. I've accepted that fact, but I'm still amazed at how much abuse it continues to take without complaints.... other than transmissions of course LOL

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

If you are going to make over 600HP with a stock block, You should ( at least )half fill it - and go aftermarket main caps or a girdle. No question IMO on that one. You should also make sure the block sonic tests real good.

---

When you say aftermarket main caps, are you referring to the 4 bolt ones? or are there 2 bolts that are available to add strength? I always thought adding 4 bolt caps to a stock block weakened it more than anything

Never been a big fan of girdles...Have always felt that most of the small block designs don't seem like they would do much...but thats just my opinion

---

Not a girdle fan ether. Went with Milodon 4 blt main set up on mine.

---

I have to ask why the 4 bolt caps when most say it actually weakens the block? I have thought about it myself, and think its probably the single best thing one could do in the bottom end IF it wasn't said that the material there is too thin...I am just wondering what your reasoning was when you made that decision

Not saying 4 bolt caps are bad, because really, I've never installed them to know if they were to actually weaken a factory block...I am just going by what I read in so many places

I appreciate all the advice so far

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

If you are going to make over 600HP with a stock block, You should ( at least )half fill it - and go aftermarket main caps or a girdle. No question IMO on that one. You should also make sure the block sonic tests real good.

---

When you say aftermarket main caps, are you referring to the 4 bolt ones? or are there 2 bolts that are available to add strength? I always thought adding 4 bolt caps to a stock block weakened it more than anything

Never been a big fan of girdles...Have always felt that most of the small block designs don't seem like they would do much...but thats just my opinion

---

Not a girdle fan ether. Went with Milodon 4 blt main set up on mine.

---

IMO best caps for the small block that going to see street duty.
Ductile iron stong and same expansion rate as the block. Matt

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

If you are going to make over 600HP with a stock block, You should ( at least )half fill it - and go aftermarket main caps or a girdle. No question IMO on that one. You should also make sure the block sonic tests real good.

---

When you say aftermarket main caps, are you referring to the 4 bolt ones? or are there 2 bolts that are available to add strength? I always thought adding 4 bolt caps to a stock block weakened it more than anything

Never been a big fan of girdles...Have always felt that most of the small block designs don't seem like they would do much...but thats just my opinion

---

Not a girdle fan ether. Went with Milodon 4 blt main set up on mine.

---

I have to ask why the 4 bolt caps when most say it actually weakens the block? I have thought about it myself, and think its probably the single best thing one could do in the bottom end IF it wasn't said that the material there is too thin...I am just wondering what your reasoning was when you made that decision

Not saying 4 bolt caps are bad, because really, I've never installed them to know if they were to actually weaken a factory block...I am just going by what I read in so many places

I appreciate all the advice so far

---

1. I hard blocked it. 2. The shimming with washers thing with the girdle set up just seemed kinda hokey to me - and lots of parts involved. 3. My machinist ( highly qualified and very experienced guy ) recommended Milodon 4 bolt caps due to strength and as said, similar heat expansion rate as the block. I mentioned block thinness in the web area and he said that wasn't a problem if the job was done correctly. Time will tell if I made the right decision. BTW, I believe it cost less to go with the 4 blt cap set up verses the girdle, so the guy wasn't trying to sell me something.

Quote:

---

Thanks!

it's still the original block that came in the truck in '99... in case the years matter that much, or if comparing the Magnum to the LA is like apples and oranges?

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

If you are going to make over 600HP with a stock block, You should ( at least )half fill it - and go aftermarket main caps or a girdle. No question IMO on that one. You should also make sure the block sonic tests real good.

---

When you say aftermarket main caps, are you referring to the 4 bolt ones? or are there 2 bolts that are available to add strength? I always thought adding 4 bolt caps to a stock block weakened it more than anything

Never been a big fan of girdles...Have always felt that most of the small block designs don't seem like they would do much...but thats just my opinion

---

Not a girdle fan ether. Went with Milodon 4 blt main set up on mine.

---

IMO best caps for the small block that going to see street duty.
Ductile iron stong and same expansion rate as the block. Matt

---

Matt, are you running those caps in your Indy motor? Or is that motor an R3????

---

Yes I am. The two outer bolts IMO stabilize the cap. My engine, IF WE ratify our contract, will be starting in a month or so. R3 Non saimese two bolt main.
Indy 230 cnc, 4.25 stroke, flat mechanical and 12 to 1 comp. Indy intake and 1020 race demon. Hopefully it doesn't go

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

If you are going to make over 600HP with a stock block, You should ( at least )half fill it - and go aftermarket main caps or a girdle. No question IMO on that one. You should also make sure the block sonic tests real good.

---

When you say aftermarket main caps, are you referring to the 4 bolt ones? or are there 2 bolts that are available to add strength? I always thought adding 4 bolt caps to a stock block weakened it more than anything

Never been a big fan of girdles...Have always felt that most of the small block designs don't seem like they would do much...but thats just my opinion

---

Not a girdle fan ether. Went with Milodon 4 blt main set up on mine.

---

I have to ask why the 4 bolt caps when most say it actually weakens the block? I have thought about it myself, and think its probably the single best thing one could do in the bottom end IF it wasn't said that the material there is too thin...I am just wondering what your reasoning was when you made that decision

Not saying 4 bolt caps are bad, because really, I've never installed them to know if they were to actually weaken a factory block...I am just going by what I read in so many places

I appreciate all the advice so far

---

1. I hard blocked it. 2. The shimming with washers thing with the girdle set up just seemed kinda hokey to me - and lots of parts involved. 3. My machinist ( highly qualified and very experienced guy ) recommended Milodon 4 bolt caps due to strength and as said, similar heat expansion rate as the block. I mentioned block thinness in the web area and he said that wasn't a problem if the job was done correctly. Time will tell if I made the right decision. BTW, I believe it cost less to go with the 4 blt cap set up verses the girdle, so the guy wasn't trying to sell me something.

---

You notice that the ARP studs are not quite long enough. I thought I needed the MILODON studs. NOPE same problem. Last build I omitted the washer. But I think I will do what you did and have the stud recessed in the nut.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Thanks!

it's still the original block that came in the truck in '99... in case the years matter that much, or if comparing the Magnum to the LA is like apples and oranges?

---

I have no idea to be honest if the earlier stuff is stronger or weaker....I hear both opinions...Mine is a 91 block, so newer just like yours, although mine is LA (again, not sure there is much of a difference there)

---

IMO with the quality control that Chrysler had in those days I would say it is a Crap Shoot.
I have a stock bore 1969 or 70 340 that is alot lighter that my 1988 360 block.
That thing is comparable to my R3

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

If you are going to make over 600HP with a stock block, You should ( at least )half fill it - and go aftermarket main caps or a girdle. No question IMO on that one. You should also make sure the block sonic tests real good.

---

When you say aftermarket main caps, are you referring to the 4 bolt ones? or are there 2 bolts that are available to add strength? I always thought adding 4 bolt caps to a stock block weakened it more than anything

Never been a big fan of girdles...Have always felt that most of the small block designs don't seem like they would do much...but thats just my opinion

---

Not a girdle fan ether. Went with Milodon 4 blt main set up on mine.

---

IMO best caps for the small block that going to see street duty.
Ductile iron stong and same expansion rate as the block. Matt

---

Matt, are you running those caps in your Indy motor? Or is that motor an R3????

---

Yes I am. The two outer bolts IMO stabilize the cap. My engine, IF WE ratify our contract, will be starting in a month or so. R3 Non saimese two bolt main.
Indy 230 cnc, 4.25 stroke, flat mechanical and 12 to 1 comp. Indy intake and 1020 race demon. Hopefully it doesn't go

---

Quote:

---

Yes I am. The two outer bolts IMO stabilize the cap. My engine, IF WE ratify our contract, will be starting in a month or so. R3 Non saimese two bolt main.
Indy 230 cnc, 4.25 stroke, flat mechanical and 12 to 1 comp. Indy intake and 1020 race demon. Hopefully it doesn't go

---

Quote:

---

My 500" BB in the Dart was half filled, I wouldn't do it again without a good oil cooler. After 20 minutes of cruising the oil pressure would drop down to 20 at idle and make me nervous.

---

Quote:

---

"The two outer bolts stablize the cap" was my machinists contention also. I think the torque was only 60psi on them if I remember correctly.

---

I have a stock 340 block that has billet steel caps
on it ... its a nice block and set up... on mine
the outer bolts are 3/8" and only need like 40# torque
if I remember right

---

Mike, do you know whose caps they are? I thought I remember reading on here before that you had said its not worth the gamble to install the 4 bolt caps on a factory block as there isn't enough material...is the 340 block you have a T/A block or something?

Would you install 4 bolt caps if you were building a stock block motor? or do you still feel they weaken it?

Quote:

---

I won't use block filler again under any conditions, never again, not good I redid and them made another complete motor for a NHRA stocker racer, the original block was filled to about 1/2 way up the cylinder walls by the formwer engine shop. We, me and the dyno operator, where dyno testing the first motor when the dyno owner came out with a infra red temp gun and read the side of the block, he ask us why we where running the motor so hot We had set the water temps running between 110 and 120 F set off of the dyno cooling tower. He had read the side of the block and below the cement was 180 F and above the cement fill line was 110 to 120F I didn't fill the new motor and it made the exact same HP and torque with the same heads, intake, carb and camshaft, rocker arms and so on as the original short block Lots of discussion on this topic, every builder and keyboard expert has there own idea on this, you heard mine If the block you have needs help buy a better block Don't patch it with fill BTW, one of the 426 hemi blocks I did fill at the owner insistance pushed a freeze plug out part way, I ended up replacing that freeze plug it after dyno testing it, I found out that the water was seeping down between the block and the cement, same thing on the cylinder walls, the cement shrunk after curing Why reduce the amount of coolant and contact surface by filling it with filler

---

Lots of different opinions on block fill, 4 bolt mains on stock blocks, etc - and thats a good thing. The OP has to eventually make up his mind on which way to go and of course $ is always a concern - for the guy spending it. I went through all the above, before I went the way I did. I only have about 11 passes on my motor to date, so I sure don't have enough history to say I went the right way for my set up yet. Aint broke yet, but if and when it does, I aint tellin anyone! - ok, just kiddin.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

"The two outer bolts stablize the cap" was my machinists contention also. I think the torque was only 60psi on them if I remember correctly.

---

I have a stock 340 block that has billet steel caps
on it ... its a nice block and set up... on mine
the outer bolts are 3/8" and only need like 40# torque
if I remember right

---

Mike, do you know whose caps they are? I thought I remember reading on here before that you had said its not worth the gamble to install the 4 bolt caps on a factory block as there isn't enough material...is the 340 block you have a T/A block or something?

Would you install 4 bolt caps if you were building a stock block motor? or do you still feel they weaken it?

---

I've never said I dont like 4 bolt caps... would I
recommend it on all builds ...nope... but the 3/8
outer bolts dont have a problem on the stock blocks...
I do have a T/A block but that one needs a set of
caps on it and when I decide to use it I will put
4 bolt caps back on it(I should pull that block out
of the pole barn and start prepping it for a build)...
I have a set of new in the box W-2s that need a home
but that will be a slow build up because I think I'm
finally running out of parts
EDIT
No I dont know whos caps they are... never seen these
caps before.. they are pinned also and thats nice..
there isnt any cap walk at all ... I bought this
block years ago and it had the caps on it already
(got it from a old roundy round racer

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

"The two outer bolts stablize the cap" was my machinists contention also. I think the torque was only 60psi on them if I remember correctly.

---

I have a stock 340 block that has billet steel caps
on it ... its a nice block and set up... on mine
the outer bolts are 3/8" and only need like 40# torque
if I remember right

---

Mike, do you know whose caps they are? I thought I remember reading on here before that you had said its not worth the gamble to install the 4 bolt caps on a factory block as there isn't enough material...is the 340 block you have a T/A block or something?

Would you install 4 bolt caps if you were building a stock block motor? or do you still feel they weaken it?

---

I've never said I dont like 4 bolt caps... would I
recommend it on all builds ...nope... but the 3/8
outer bolts dont have a problem on the stock blocks...
I do have a T/A block but that one needs a set of
caps on it and when I decide to use it I will put
4 bolt caps back on it(I should pull that block out
of the pole barn and start prepping it for a build)...
I have a set of new in the box W-2s that need a home
but that will be a slow build up because I think I'm
finally running out of parts

---

I might have a home for those W-2's if you are ever interested.

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

"The two outer bolts stablize the cap" was my machinists contention also. I think the torque was only 60psi on them if I remember correctly.

---

I have a stock 340 block that has billet steel caps
on it ... its a nice block and set up... on mine
the outer bolts are 3/8" and only need like 40# torque
if I remember right

---

Mike, do you know whose caps they are? I thought I remember reading on here before that you had said its not worth the gamble to install the 4 bolt caps on a factory block as there isn't enough material...is the 340 block you have a T/A block or something?

Would you install 4 bolt caps if you were building a stock block motor? or do you still feel they weaken it?

---

I've never said I dont like 4 bolt caps... would I
recommend it on all builds ...nope... but the 3/8
outer bolts dont have a problem on the stock blocks...
I do have a T/A block but that one needs a set of
caps on it and when I decide to use it I will put
4 bolt caps back on it(I should pull that block out
of the pole barn and start prepping it for a build)...
I have a set of new in the box W-2s that need a home
but that will be a slow build up because I think I'm
finally running out of parts

---

I might have a home for those W-2's if you are ever interested.

---

I dont plan on dumping them but if I need more parts
than I figure I might sell them off(they are just
a set of econo heads)...when I get my Rampage done
I'll start on porting them and locating my parts to
see what I have and what I need

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Yes I am. The two outer bolts IMO stabilize the cap. My engine, IF WE ratify our contract, will be starting in a month or so. R3 Non saimese two bolt main.
Indy 230 cnc, 4.25 stroke, flat mechanical and 12 to 1 comp. Indy intake and 1020 race demon. Hopefully it doesn't go

---

I hear ya about that contract stuff, its a real B.S. time right now here

Question for ya- if that R3 is a two bolt block, was it cast with extra material in the main webbing to allow for drilling the 4 bolt mains, or is it the same material thickness there as a production LA block?

Would you add 4 bolt caps to a factory block?

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

"The two outer bolts stablize the cap" was my machinists contention also. I think the torque was only 60psi on them if I remember correctly.

---

I have a stock 340 block that has billet steel caps
on it ... its a nice block and set up... on mine
the outer bolts are 3/8" and only need like 40# torque
if I remember right

---

Mike, do you know whose caps they are? I thought I remember reading on here before that you had said its not worth the gamble to install the 4 bolt caps on a factory block as there isn't enough material...is the 340 block you have a T/A block or something?

Would you install 4 bolt caps if you were building a stock block motor? or do you still feel they weaken it?

---

I've never said I dont like 4 bolt caps... would I
recommend it on all builds ...nope... but the 3/8
outer bolts dont have a problem on the stock blocks...
I do have a T/A block but that one needs a set of
caps on it and when I decide to use it I will put
4 bolt caps back on it(I should pull that block out
of the pole barn and start prepping it for a build)...
I have a set of new in the box W-2s that need a home
but that will be a slow build up because I think I'm
finally running out of parts
EDIT
No I dont know whos caps they are... never seen these
caps before.. they are pinned also and thats nice..
there isnt any cap walk at all ... I bought this
block years ago and it had the caps on it already
(got it from a old roundy round racer

---

How much could you get for that TA block?
Im thinking it maybe worth some coin to somebody who is restoring a AAR or TA.

Quote:

---

well I have decided I am going to try what I already have, with a half fill to the freeze plugs since I already have a TON of embecco 885 sitting here...I'll roll the dice, take my chances, and see what happens

---

My 416 was half filled. Never got a chance to put it on th street. My 230 cnc Indy heads decided they were better suited for watering the lawn.
I did get 11 Dyno pulls with it.

Quote:

---

My only concern now is that my block is already machined, and I can't get it remachined...so I want to pour the stuff, but am worried about the best way to do so without moving the block i.e. torque the mains down I know, but do I need to put a head on afterwards and torque it so the cylinder doesn't shift, or???

---

The only thing you can do now is torque the mains,
put 1 head on and torque... the level the other
side in both fore and aft and side to side... fill
it to the point you want and then install the head
and torque... give it 2 days min then do the other side

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

My only concern now is that my block is already machined, and I can't get it remachined...so I want to pour the stuff, but am worried about the best way to do so without moving the block i.e. torque the mains down I know, but do I need to put a head on afterwards and torque it so the cylinder doesn't shift, or???

---

The only thing you can do now is torque the mains,
put 1 head on and torque... the level the other
side in both fore and aft and side to side... fill
it to the point you want and then install the head
and torque... give it 2 days min then do the other side

---

Thats what I was planning on doing, that stuff exactly...I hope its enough for the cylinders to not shift

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

My only concern now is that my block is already machined, and I can't get it remachined...so I want to pour the stuff, but am worried about the best way to do so without moving the block i.e. torque the mains down I know, but do I need to put a head on afterwards and torque it so the cylinder doesn't shift, or???

---

The only thing you can do now is torque the mains,
put 1 head on and torque... the level the other
side in both fore and aft and side to side... fill
it to the point you want and then install the head
and torque... give it 2 days min then do the other side

---

Thats what I was planning on doing, that stuff exactly...I hope its enough for the cylinders to not shift

---

Experiment with the cement. From what I gather you have plenty of it. I could be wrong but the problem with cement shrinking is that it cures to fast.
IMO the longer it takes to cure, the stronger the cement
Pour some in a metal cup and see how it cures. Mix some metal shaving in it. :

Quote:

---

My only concern now is that my block is already machined, and I can't get it remachined...so I want to pour the stuff, but am worried about the best way to do so without moving the block i.e. torque the mains down I know, but do I need to put a head on afterwards and torque it so the cylinder doesn't shift, or???

---

Don't fill it, you will be sorry Do you have access to a dial bore gauge that you can check your cylinder walls before and after from the bottom with both heads torque down before and after filling? If you do you should check it and let us know your results I'll bet that you see a .003 or more change in the straightness of the cylinder walls, espcially the center cylinders I sincerely hope you don't see that happen to your motor

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

My only concern now is that my block is already machined, and I can't get it remachined...so I want to pour the stuff, but am worried about the best way to do so without moving the block i.e. torque the mains down I know, but do I need to put a head on afterwards and torque it so the cylinder doesn't shift, or???

---

The only thing you can do now is torque the mains,
put 1 head on and torque... the level the other
side in both fore and aft and side to side... fill
it to the point you want and then install the head
and torque... give it 2 days min then do the other side

---

Thats what I was planning on doing, that stuff exactly...I hope its enough for the cylinders to not shift

---

Experiment with the cement. From what I gather you have plenty of it. I could be wrong but the problem with cement shrinking is that it cures to fast.
IMO the longer it takes to cure, the stronger the cement
Pour some in a metal cup and see how it cures. Mix some metal shaving in it. :

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

My only concern now is that my block is already machined, and I can't get it remachined...so I want to pour the stuff, but am worried about the best way to do so without moving the block i.e. torque the mains down I know, but do I need to put a head on afterwards and torque it so the cylinder doesn't shift, or???

---

Don't fill it, you will be sorry Do you have access to a dial bore gauge that you can check your cylinder walls before and after from the bottom with both heads torque down before and after filling? If you do you should check it and let us know your results I'll bet that you see a .003 or more change in the straightness of the cylinder walls, espcially the center cylinders I sincerely hope you don't see that happen to your motor

---

Cab, im gonna roll the dice and take my chances...I know you never had good luck with it, but for me just like I will be doing, and hopefully I will be back here with a tale of success instead of carnage lol

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

My only concern now is that my block is already machined, and I can't get it remachined...so I want to pour the stuff, but am worried about the best way to do so without moving the block i.e. torque the mains down I know, but do I need to put a head on afterwards and torque it so the cylinder doesn't shift, or???

---

The only thing you can do now is torque the mains,
put 1 head on and torque... the level the other
side in both fore and aft and side to side... fill
it to the point you want and then install the head
and torque... give it 2 days min then do the other side

---

Thats what I was planning on doing, that stuff exactly...I hope its enough for the cylinders to not shift

---

Experiment with the cement. From what I gather you have plenty of it. I could be wrong but the problem with cement shrinking is that it cures to fast.
IMO the longer it takes to cure, the stronger the cement
Pour some in a metal cup and see how it cures. Mix some metal shaving in it. :

---

Thats a good idea! The stuff is apparently supposed to be non shrinking, they advertise it all over the product information sheets...its the expanding that I am worried about, because obviously if it expands then that is what will shift the block and cylinders

---

Pour it in a cup. Let it cure. Place in oven heat it and let it cool.

Quote:

---

Pour it in a cup. Let it cure. Place in oven heat it and let it cool.

---

You are correct when saying the slower it cures the
stronger it is... the thing with concrete is the
moisture in it... the longer it can hold moisture the
more strength it will have... I went to concrete school
in the military and if this product he is using is like
cement(as in Portland Cement)then you want to hold
the moisture in it as long as possible.. the way to
do that is eliminate the air to it... air draws off
moisture... adding a metal product is a gamble due
to a unknown factor as what percentage to add ...
you can try it.... IF he can REALLY control the moisture
evaporation it will have far less shrinkage

---

http://www.buildingsystems.basf.com/p02/...ms/Embeco%20885

Quote:

---

Looking at the data it looks like a product I have
used before... its got good non shrinkage and good
pressure strength(11,500 psi) it also has some epoxy
characteristics to it based on its dry time and yield..
looks like a good product... I didnt see any growth
factor so hopefully you wont see any

---

Quote:

---

Also found this video interesting...I know he is using the Moroso stuff, which supposedly DOES shrink, but he does it with the entire engine together....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvmupoDIsZ0

---

Quote:

---

Quote:

---

Also found this video interesting...I know he is using the Moroso stuff, which supposedly DOES shrink, but he does it with the entire engine together....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvmupoDIsZ0

---

Moroso block filler is what my block was filled with. Of course it was done before any machine work ( line boring, Cyl. boring and decking/squaring).

---

On one of the blocks I filled I used the Moroso filler...
it was much creamier and flowed in better... I filled
another with Hard Block.. I didnt care for it...
both were filled prior to machine work.... plus I
used a honing plate torqued down

Quote:

---

Im going to pour it either way...I know the best option is to pour BEFORE, but I have talked to some people in the know and I should be ok.

I am more worried about the fill I plan on using...but if it seems like a low expansion type of fill, I think I should be ok

Just trying to find out now more about those who have used the same stuff as me, and whether they used it after machining and noted differences

---

Myself... being where your at right now I would
fill to what you want then have the bores honed again...
it isnt much cost then you wouldnt have to worry...
if it measures out before honing then fine but let
your machinist check it(all he has to do is check
it with his bore gauge in multiple spots)... JMO

Quote:

---

brad penn is good til 280*. my 360 block is short filled and I see 250* often. no oil cooler.

---

Quote:

---

If you have any concrete left over after you are finished I could use some. I have a low spot in my yard that I would like to fill in.

---

LOL...I have a whole bag, so I should have some I can send your way..I hear it works good to filling in break throughs in the victor manifold ports

Quote:

---

My Stock Block 70 360 Build was sonic checked,1/2 filled before machining with torque plates on and filled one side at a time allowing time to cure, turned the block to allow level filling. my builder/ machinist also installed pro-gram steel 2 bolt caps, he didn't like the lack of material in the area where the outer cap bolts would be drilled, and said girdles are a band aid.
Its a 59 deg W9 build, only bored .030" over with 4.125" stroke.

After all the work done to this block I should have bought an 48 Deg R3.

---

Quote:

---

It's interesting to note that the cooling system also acts as a hydraulic pressure vessel and also acts to a large degree as a fluid dampener around the cylinder walls. A lot of people tend to overlook how effective a properly functioning cooling system is/can be. Hard block diminishes this ability to some extent but conversely reinforces the mass around the crankshaft webbing.

on the street there tends to be a lot of wasted momentum in terms of what percentage of developed power actually is applied to load and gets to the ground. the more well-scienced your car hooks the more Percentage of power (load) you subject the block to.

If you hard block it I would run an oil cooler just as added protection against getting stuck in traffic in the middle of summer which is about the most taxing heat/thermal expansion a street motor is going to see. Not so much what heat it generates drag racing at WOT (because there is a long anticipated cool down period) but more a possible inability to dissipate heat under extreme and prolonged conditions.

---

Quote:

---

The half fill on my block was up to the top of the core plugs.
but it is not a street motor, so no cooling issues. unless you count backing it out of the trailer for a local cruse night.
honestly if its already machined and a street engine I wouldn't bother.

---

Quote:

---

friend of mine has a similar engine to mine same engine builder but in a 3200 pound Cuda, Indy Heads with an early factory 360 block, no fill, but good caps and ARP studs he has run hundreds of passes in the 9.50s and sprayed it to run low 9s if he took some weight out of it and or sprayed another 100 HP it would go 8.90s

---

Quote:

---

My 408 is studded, and has a Hughes girdle, I liked the fact that the girdle ties everything as 1 piece, I dont like the fact that the splade 4 bolt caps cut into a already thin webbing unless your running an R block.

Matt I personally think that the hard block isnt worth the time for you at this level. Your gonna be time/money ahead if you just spend the time to studd and gordle/4 bolt the bottom end, and the bores on that block should be plenty stout for that power level.

Mine is a 77 360 thats .030 over, forged guts, and studs where needed.

I know a few guys like hard block, I personally dont care for it from the standpoint of heat transfer into the cylinders, and what the water is accually there for.

Who knows though, Im by no means anything close to what Mr P, Brian, or other builders on here know so I may have just waisted a page here.....

---

Hey man, opinions are like a-holes, everyone has one, including on this topic... I always appreciate insight and experience from others when trying to make a decision

It seems everyone I talk to has a different opinion on this (what a surprise LOL), so im going to have decide what I feel most comfortable with and go from there.

I just don't want to have this motor apart again because I break something when spraying it...I need something to stay together for atleast a couple of seasons instead of this every year something new crap lol