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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Chargervic] #1355308
12/19/12 08:46 PM
12/19/12 08:46 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 413
Norway (old world)
Oyvind Mopar Offline
mopar
Oyvind Mopar  Offline
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Norway (old world)
That is not correct. The 7* is at .050 lift. Can easily check the other degrees, just add the numbers and add 180 and you get the 224 and 230 numbers correspondingly. And, how can you explain a rumpy idle at 7 degree overlap at .006" lift?
Still curious about the massive torque. As friction takes appx 5% of the efficiency I guess it must be something else than minimizing friction that relieves all this torque. Do you use a vacuum pump?

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: BSB67] #1355309
12/19/12 09:02 PM
12/19/12 09:02 PM
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Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
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Chargervic Offline OP
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Those are the @0.050" figures, overlap at advertised duration is 58*.




If you read the Comp Cams spec page correctly the valve events are @ .006" lift
EVC @ 1º ATDC and IVO @ 6º BTDC




The 7 degrees overlap is at 0.050", not 0.006". The advertised numbers are at 0.006" and the overlap is 58 degrees.




Okay, you win, BUT the specs and dyno notwithstanding, the car has the torque as proven by the wild ride. The difference between this engine set-up and the previous one is night and day. The old set-up was around 500 lb/ ft and this is way beyond that.


68 Charger 451 / 518 65 Cuda 273 / 833 04 Cummins 2500 2WD 02 Grand Caravan
Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Chargervic] #1355310
12/19/12 09:14 PM
12/19/12 09:14 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Romeo MI
Okay, you win, BUT the specs and dyno notwithstanding, the car has the torque as proven by the wild ride. The difference between this engine set-up and the previous one is night and day. The old set-up was around 500 lb/ ft and this is way beyond that.




Can you post your dyno sheet.... would be interesting
to see the numbers

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Oyvind Mopar] #1355311
12/19/12 09:24 PM
12/19/12 09:24 PM
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Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
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Chargervic Offline OP
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Quote:

Impressive numbers. One thing I do not understand: The streetHemi with all the good parts inside made 490 in torque, the 440 magnum had 480, some GM 455 engines had around 500, this was SAE in the 70's (Which were known to be optimistic). Then this example is 20% more in dynoed torque, at almost the same swept volume and a tad more CR. Can it be correct? What have I missed? Are the Stealths like supercharging an engine? Do the 451 light weight pistons matter at 2000 rpms? Please explain, I am really interested in how this can be done, as a 523 stroker I built some years ago with 11,7:1, 590 cam, M1 intake + 1050, and ported St6 heads barely made 600 lbsft. I am building a 400 stroker for my driver with 6 speed manual transmission, and will try to aim for some mileage as our gas is on the world's cost peak.....
Thanks,
Oyvind Mopar




I bought a brand new Hemi Coronet 500 in 1966, it ran low 14's @ 100 MPH. My Charger runs in the high 11's @ 115. The difference lies in many things, like lightweight pistons, narrow rings, and a much greater attention to detail regarding friction reduction than Ma Mopar ever thought of back in the 60's. Don't forget that the lift of the roller cam is better and the rate of rise is much better. I don't think the Stealth heads are a huge improvement over my old iron 452's, but I wanted to get quench and the aluminum heads allow a higher CR. If you use Comp's cam selection site and input fuel economy as a priority, this is the cam it selects. That's not how I arrived at this cam choice, but it confirmed my thinking. Remember, most of my driving is only on the center carb.
Fuel economy is in the right shoe.


68 Charger 451 / 518 65 Cuda 273 / 833 04 Cummins 2500 2WD 02 Grand Caravan
Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP *DELETED* [Re: Chargervic] #1355312
12/19/12 10:01 PM
12/19/12 10:01 PM
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Utah
topbrent Offline
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Utah
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: topbrent] #1355313
12/19/12 11:21 PM
12/19/12 11:21 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,562
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
Still wishing...
Twostick  Offline
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
Maybe it has 15 lbs of boost he forgot to tell us about....?

Kevin

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: topbrent] #1355314
12/19/12 11:52 PM
12/19/12 11:52 PM
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Idaho
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LaRoy Engines Offline
mopar
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Quote:

Your ridiculously high torque figures sound like you got your dyno results from the magical fantasy land of Desktop Dyno.

There isn't a pump gas naturally aspirated stock 3.75 stroke big block mopar on the planet that will pound out 600 ft.lbs over a 2000 rpm spread like you claim.






Well I for one believe it is possible. I have gone 584 lb-ft at 5000 rpm to 583 lb-ft at 6900 rpm with a peak of 604 lb-ft at 6100 rpm using a pump gas 451 stroker. It'll give 500 lb-ft for a 4000 rpm range, from 3500 rpm to 7500 rpm. You're right it isn't 600, but it's close enough for me to believe someone better'n me could do it.

Last edited by heyoldguy; 12/20/12 12:05 AM.
Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: LaRoy Engines] #1355315
12/20/12 01:28 AM
12/20/12 01:28 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
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Chargervic Offline OP
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Well I for one believe it is possible. I have gone 584 lb-ft at 5000 rpm to 583 lb-ft at 6900 rpm with a peak of 604 lb-ft at 6100 rpm using a pump gas 451 stroker. It'll give 500 lb-ft for a 4000 rpm range, from 3500 rpm to 7500 rpm. You're right it isn't 600, but it's close enough for me to believe someone better'n me could do it.




Thanks for the support.
I didn't post this information to boost my ego. I was asked to post my engine formula in order to help others with their projects. The other "experts" are the reason I don't post very often. I've been helping others in the hobby for over 50 years and have never had a customer experience an engine failure, ever. Must be doing something right.


68 Charger 451 / 518 65 Cuda 273 / 833 04 Cummins 2500 2WD 02 Grand Caravan
Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Chargervic] #1355316
12/20/12 01:35 AM
12/20/12 01:35 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Romeo MI
Thanks for the support.
I didn't post this information to boost my ego. I was asked to post my engine formula in order to help others with their projects. The other "experts" are the reason I don't post very often. I've been helping others in the hobby for over 50 years and have never had a customer experience an engine failure, ever. Must be doing something right.




Post up your dyno sheet... I'd like to see it

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1355317
12/20/12 09:20 AM
12/20/12 09:20 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051
The Great White North
RAMM Offline
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You guys aren't reading it right. The OP states that his 451 generates 600 ft/lbs from 2000 rpm to 4000 rpm! It's not the actual torque number--a VERY well scienced out 451 can do that-just NOT at 2000 rpm. But whatever I'd take a ride in it. J.Rob


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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: RAMM] #1355318
12/20/12 11:48 AM
12/20/12 11:48 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,846
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
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Quote:

You guys aren't reading it right. The OP states that his 451 generates 600 ft/lbs from 2000 rpm to 4000 rpm! It's not the actual torque number--a VERY well scienced out 451 can do that-just NOT at 2000 rpm. But whatever I'd take a ride in it. J.Rob




Exactly

600 ft lbs from a 6 pack 451 on pump gas has already been done, local shops here have done it about a decade or so ago....it's well known and not really a big deal.

But certainly not at 2000 rpm, and certainly not with a 2 barrel....


Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Chargervic] #1355319
12/20/12 12:05 PM
12/20/12 12:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
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LaRoy Engines Offline
mopar
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Idaho
Quote:


Well I for one believe it is possible. I have gone 584 lb-ft at 5000 rpm to 583 lb-ft at 6900 rpm with a peak of 604 lb-ft at 6100 rpm using a pump gas 451 stroker. It'll give 500 lb-ft for a 4000 rpm range, from 3500 rpm to 7500 rpm. You're right it isn't 600, but it's close enough for me to believe someone better'n me could do it.




Thanks for the support.
I didn't post this information to boost my ego. I was asked to post my engine formula in order to help others with their projects. The other "experts" are the reason I don't post very often. I've been helping others in the hobby for over 50 years and have never had a customer experience an engine failure, ever. Must be doing something right.




I've not done it at 2000 rpm, haven't tried and don't think I ever will, as my focus is a whole other direction. But a dyno sheet, if available, would spark another debate I'm sure.

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: LaRoy Engines] #1355320
12/20/12 12:12 PM
12/20/12 12:12 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Romeo MI
I'd like to see the dyno sheet..... but I have a
suspicion he is using a desk top dyno.... if he does
have a dyno run post the sheet.... we are curious

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Chargervic] #1355321
12/20/12 12:29 PM
12/20/12 12:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,969
Chandler, AZ
Duner Offline
top fuel
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Chandler, AZ
Sounds like a tire annihilating good time!

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1355322
12/20/12 12:32 PM
12/20/12 12:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck  Offline
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Brookeville, Md
Dnyo's are over rated. Get it on the track. Who really cares what the dyno reads. Drive it to the track, put a 10 on your time slip and drive it home and I'll be impressed. Even better if you can do it w/o stopping at the gas station. I never understood why somebody would build a high-perfomace 440+ cubic inch engine and worry about how many MPG's they can get out of it.

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Mr.Yuck] #1355323
12/20/12 12:35 PM
12/20/12 12:35 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,969
Chandler, AZ
Duner Offline
top fuel
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Chandler, AZ
I'm able to drive to the track, put a 10 on the timeslip and drive home at 4200#... but I'm not coming anywhere close to that 20 mpg.

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Duner] #1355324
12/20/12 01:13 PM
12/20/12 01:13 PM
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Hot Rod Ridge
FastmOp Offline
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You experts need to get a life. He's trying to share his build and you folks are acting like he has done something wrong. He had a nice combo that makes good power and good milage and all you experts keep harking on is the 600tq at 2000 rpm. It makes you all look like tools.
Everyone on here knows that's optimistic as the peak tq. for that combo but you feel you must give your expert opinions ha ha.
How bout you try to work on your cars instead of your post counts! ha ha ha

OP. nice combo, I would like to see some pics of the car. Them old chargers are some of the best looking MoPars made.

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: FastmOp] #1355325
12/20/12 01:53 PM
12/20/12 01:53 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Romeo MI
Quote:

You experts need to get a life. He's trying to share his build and you folks are acting like he has done something wrong. He had a nice combo that makes good power and good milage and all you experts keep harking on is the 600tq at 2000 rpm. It makes you all look like tools.
Everyone on here knows that's optimistic as the peak tq. for that combo but you feel you must give your expert opinions ha ha.
How bout you try to work on your cars instead of your post counts! ha ha ha

OP. nice combo, I would like to see some pics of the car. Them old chargers are some of the best looking MoPars made.




If you notice I never said anything bad about his combo
and I have something close to it in my 38 Ply but I
havent driven it yet... so I'm curious about the torque
curve.... I could care less if its off but I would
like to see how flat it is

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: FastmOp] #1355326
12/20/12 03:59 PM
12/20/12 03:59 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR Offline
I Win
JohnRR  Offline
I Win

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Posts: 75,020
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Quote:

You experts need to get a life. He's trying to share his build and you folks are acting like he has done something wrong. He had a nice combo that makes good power and good milage and all you experts keep harking on is the 600tq at 2000 rpm. It makes you all look like tools.
Everyone on here knows that's optimistic as the peak tq. for that combo but you feel you must give your expert opinions ha ha.
How bout you try to work on your cars instead of your post counts! ha ha ha

OP. nice combo, I would like to see some pics of the car. Them old chargers are some of the best looking MoPars made.







Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: JohnRR] #1355327
12/20/12 04:15 PM
12/20/12 04:15 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,846
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY Offline
I Live Here
ZIPPY  Offline
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Posts: 17,846
S.E. Michigan
It only takes one idiot to wreck the whole discussion....


Rich H.

Esse Quam Videri




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