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68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
#1355288
12/19/12 02:23 AM
12/19/12 02:23 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
Chargervic
OP
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OP
member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
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I was asked on another page on the site to post this essay in the performance section. I hope it is useful and informative.
Specifications for the build of my 451” B block engine which delivers 25 MPG and pushes the 3975 lb Charger into the 11’s.
First of all, keep in mind that my mileage claim is for Imperial gallons, which we use in Canada. For US gallons (smaller by 20%), the number would be 20 MPG.
Another note is that I have had many years experience building Mopar hot rod engines and although I don’t have any magic, I do use a great attention to detail in machining and assembly.
I first built this engine in 1999, using a 400 block, 440 modified steel crank with reduced main journals, stock forged 440 rods highly prepped, 452 motorhome heads ported and polished with oversize valves and a Mopar 284º hydraulic cam. The intake was an old 383 Torker and the carb was a stock 1968 440 AVS Carter. After a couple of upgrades to an MP 284º solid lifter cam and a Six Pack set-up, I swapped the 727 transmission to a full manual shift 518 with lockup converter. This package got me into the mid 12’s and around 22 MPG.
After a few years and 30,000 miles of listening to the tappet clatter from the MP solid cam, I decided to go to a hydraulic roller cam and aluminum heads. After 40,000 miles of 7200 RPM shifts, I replaced the bearings, but left the rings and cylinder walls alone. Another reason for this upgrade is that I am running a 518 overdrive trans and most of the time the engine is below 2000 RPM, so I wanted much more bottom end torque and, believe me, this engine has it. Over 600 lb/ft from 2000 up to 4000 RPM.
Pretty much matches my Cummins diesel.
Here is the current engine I have now:
Compression ratio: 10.55:1
440 Source Stealth heads with mild port work, 84 cc chambers
Comp hydraulic roller cam, grind # XR274HR-10, Part # 23-710-9
Hughes Hydraulic roller lifters
Speed-Pro aluminum roller rockers (from 1999 build)
Smith Bros pushrods
Arias flat top forged pistons (custom from 1999 build)
440 Source fluid damper
Melling HV oil pump with ½” pickup and 7 qt pan (homebuilt) from 1999 build
Factory 440 Holley Six Pack carbs ( center carb jetted down to 62’s)
Edelbrock 383 style Six Pack intake
440 Source aluminum water pump and housing (modified)
The engine is all done at a little over 5000 RPM, so I use that as a shift point. It idles at 750 RPM in gear and gives 12+ inches of vacuum with a slightly rumpy idle. I have Hedman headers ceramic coated (from 1999) and a full 3” exhaust system front to back that I built myself. I use Dynomax mufflers and 3” glass packs as resonators in the tailpipes. The rear end gears are 3.91:1 Sure-Grip in an 8 ¾ housing. The car weighs 3975 with me in it at the track.
My little carb secret for mileage is simple. I put an electrically operated vacuum solenoid (minivan purge valve) in the vacuum signal line from the center carb to the outboards. I shut it off (no outboard carb action) for 99% of my driving and only use the outboards for the odd chebbie or phord that needs a lesson. I just recently dynoed another almost identical engine and we made 405 HP on the center carb only. This is lots for street use.
I use a Jacobs Ignition system from 2001, they don’t make them this good any more. Plugs are gapped at .055”. Champions, of course. I can run on 91 octane on the street, but use 94 at the track just to make sure there is no detonation, as I couldn’t hear it if there was. I run through the mufflers, but the noisy chebbies are pretty loud. If anyone has more questions about this set-up, please contact me through the site and I would be pleased to answer.
68 Charger 451 / 518
65 Cuda 273 / 833
04 Cummins 2500 2WD
02 Grand Caravan
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Chargervic]
#1355289
12/19/12 07:13 AM
12/19/12 07:13 AM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 793
Utah
topbrent
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 793
Utah
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Quote:
...Over 600 lb/ft from 2000 up to 4000 RPM.
Pretty much matches my Cummins diesel...
No offense, but that sounds just a bit overly optimistic for the sum of the parts in a pump gas, sub 4" stroke engine.
- 400 block, 440 steel crank w/ reduced main journals,
- ported 440 Source Stealth heads, 10.55:1
- Comp hydraulic roller cam, XR274HR-10, 224/230 110°LSA
- 383 style Six Pack intake
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: topbrent]
#1355291
12/19/12 02:26 PM
12/19/12 02:26 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,566
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,566
Downtown Roebuck Ont
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Quote:
Quote:
...Over 600 lb/ft from 2000 up to 4000 RPM.
Pretty much matches my Cummins diesel...
No offense, but that sounds just a bit overly optimistic for the sum of the parts in a pump gas, sub 4" stroke engine.
- 400 block, 440 steel crank w/ reduced main journals,
- ported 440 Source Stealth heads, 10.55:1
- Comp hydraulic roller cam, XR274HR-10, 224/230 110°LSA
- 383 style Six Pack intake
I think that dyno is on nitrous 
That is a 100 ft/lbs better average than my 493
Kevin
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Twostick]
#1355292
12/19/12 03:09 PM
12/19/12 03:09 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
Chargervic
OP
member
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OP
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
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I don't spend a lot of time on these forums because everyone has a different opinion or a different experience. This cam only has 7º of overlap and is a torque monster (read: truck puller). I have been at this game for over 50 years and one ride in this car will change your mind. I built it for the torque, not bragging rights.
68 Charger 451 / 518
65 Cuda 273 / 833
04 Cummins 2500 2WD
02 Grand Caravan
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Chargervic]
#1355293
12/19/12 03:17 PM
12/19/12 03:17 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
sixpackgut
Drag Week Mod Champion
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Drag Week Mod Champion
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 9,225
Charleston
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did you run an ultra bell on the 518?
I could have used a few more MPG at drag week
Gen 3 power 6.22@110, 9.85@135
Follow @g3hemiswap on instagram
performance only racing, CRT, ultimate converter, superior design concepts, ThumperCarbs
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Chargervic]
#1355294
12/19/12 03:34 PM
12/19/12 03:34 PM
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 208
Norrland, Sweden
Swedcharger67
enthusiast
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Norrland, Sweden
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Quote:
...
440 Source Stealth heads with mild port work, 84 cc chambers
Comp hydraulic roller cam, grind # XR274HR-10, Part # 23-710-9
Hughes Hydraulic roller lifters
Interesting info, thanks. How do you think that cam would perform in my 512, E85 fuel, 12.4:1 static comp, unported Stealths (will be ported later...)?
Martin
Martin, 67 Charger, 512 cui, E85, MegaSquirt MS3X sequential ignition & injection
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Chargervic]
#1355295
12/19/12 03:38 PM
12/19/12 03:38 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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The mileage numbers of 20 MPG isnt bad being that your running a 2 bbl carb and a 518 with lock up and overdrive... and I am sure this is highway mileage to base the average on 
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Swedcharger67]
#1355296
12/19/12 03:49 PM
12/19/12 03:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
brads70
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
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I just finished up a 451" with a lunati hyd roller Mopar stage 6 heads mated to a 4L60 and am getting 17 MPG ( US gallons) Using a quickfuel 850 carb, Dana 3:55 rear end cam card.... http://www.lunatipower.com/CamSpec.aspx?p=60312Power output? Don't know never dyno'ed it? 540 or so I'd guess? Engine builder figures closer to 600? Don't know , don't care. It's more motor than the tires can handle anyhow!  Just a street car, not a drag racer. More info on the engine build... http://www.cuda-challenger.com/cc/index.php?topic=78386.0I like my cake... and eating it too!
Last edited by brads70; 12/19/12 03:51 PM.
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Swedcharger67]
#1355298
12/19/12 05:11 PM
12/19/12 05:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
Chargervic
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OP
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British Columbia Canada
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I wouldn't use it on an engine that big. I just finished a 500 with the same specs exactly as my 451 and it made a little less HP & TQ. I think the next cam up in that series would work a little better. I think the 383 Six pack intake is too small, as well. When I put it on, I lost 1200 RPM on the top end from my old 383 Torker and an AVS.
However, if you're running a bigger intake, so it's not the choke point, I think the Stealth heads might be the next problem.
If you can get accurate flow data for your heads, Desktop Dyno will help with the cam and manifold choices. The actual dyno numbers were a little larger than the desktop numbers, by about 2 or 3 %. You have to ensure you're not trying to fool yourself with the computer program, it is accurate if you don't BS the input info.
68 Charger 451 / 518
65 Cuda 273 / 833
04 Cummins 2500 2WD
02 Grand Caravan
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1355299
12/19/12 05:13 PM
12/19/12 05:13 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
Chargervic
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
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Definitely highway cruising mileage. When I'm playing hard it's just the same as every other hot rod.
68 Charger 451 / 518
65 Cuda 273 / 833
04 Cummins 2500 2WD
02 Grand Caravan
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Chargervic]
#1355301
12/19/12 06:06 PM
12/19/12 06:06 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Definitely highway cruising mileage. When I'm playing hard it's just the same as every other hot rod.
By the way that cam is not 7* overlap... its 58*...
never heard of 7*
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Chargervic]
#1355304
12/19/12 07:05 PM
12/19/12 07:05 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 288
Birmingham, England
Mick70RR
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 288
Birmingham, England
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Those are the @0.050" figures, overlap at advertised duration is 58*.
1970 Road Runner
505 cid
MCH CNC ported Stealth heads
MP 528 camshaft
4 speed
GV overdrive
11.98 @ 117 on street treads
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Mick70RR]
#1355305
12/19/12 07:49 PM
12/19/12 07:49 PM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 413
Norway (old world)
Oyvind Mopar
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 413
Norway (old world)
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Impressive numbers. One thing I do not understand: The streetHemi with all the good parts inside made 490 in torque, the 440 magnum had 480, some GM 455 engines had around 500, this was SAE in the 70's (Which were known to be optimistic). Then this example is 20% more in dynoed torque, at almost the same swept volume and a tad more CR. Can it be correct? What have I missed? Are the Stealths like supercharging an engine? Do the 451 light weight pistons matter at 2000 rpms? Please explain, I am really interested in how this can be done, as a 523 stroker I built some years ago with 11,7:1, 590 cam, M1 intake + 1050, and ported St6 heads barely made 600 lbsft. I am building a 400 stroker for my driver with 6 speed manual transmission, and will try to aim for some mileage as our gas is on the world's cost peak..... Thanks, Oyvind Mopar 
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Oyvind Mopar]
#1355311
12/19/12 09:24 PM
12/19/12 09:24 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
Chargervic
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
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Quote:
Impressive numbers. One thing I do not understand: The streetHemi with all the good parts inside made 490 in torque, the 440 magnum had 480, some GM 455 engines had around 500, this was SAE in the 70's (Which were known to be optimistic). Then this example is 20% more in dynoed torque, at almost the same swept volume and a tad more CR. Can it be correct? What have I missed? Are the Stealths like supercharging an engine? Do the 451 light weight pistons matter at 2000 rpms? Please explain, I am really interested in how this can be done, as a 523 stroker I built some years ago with 11,7:1, 590 cam, M1 intake + 1050, and ported St6 heads barely made 600 lbsft. I am building a 400 stroker for my driver with 6 speed manual transmission, and will try to aim for some mileage as our gas is on the world's cost peak.....
Thanks,
Oyvind Mopar
I bought a brand new Hemi Coronet 500 in 1966, it ran low 14's @ 100 MPH. My Charger runs in the high 11's @ 115. The difference lies in many things, like lightweight pistons, narrow rings, and a much greater attention to detail regarding friction reduction than Ma Mopar ever thought of back in the 60's. Don't forget that the lift of the roller cam is better and the rate of rise is much better. I don't think the Stealth heads are a huge improvement over my old iron 452's, but I wanted to get quench and the aluminum heads allow a higher CR. If you use Comp's cam selection site and input fuel economy as a priority, this is the cam it selects. That's not how I arrived at this cam choice, but it confirmed my thinking. Remember, most of my driving is only on the center carb.
Fuel economy is in the right shoe.
68 Charger 451 / 518
65 Cuda 273 / 833
04 Cummins 2500 2WD
02 Grand Caravan
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP *DELETED*
[Re: Chargervic]
#1355312
12/19/12 10:01 PM
12/19/12 10:01 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 793
Utah
topbrent
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 793
Utah
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: LaRoy Engines]
#1355315
12/20/12 01:28 AM
12/20/12 01:28 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
Chargervic
OP
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OP
member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
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Well I for one believe it is possible. I have gone 584 lb-ft at 5000 rpm to 583 lb-ft at 6900 rpm with a peak of 604 lb-ft at 6100 rpm using a pump gas 451 stroker. It'll give 500 lb-ft for a 4000 rpm range, from 3500 rpm to 7500 rpm. You're right it isn't 600, but it's close enough for me to believe someone better'n me could do it.
Thanks for the support.
I didn't post this information to boost my ego. I was asked to post my engine formula in order to help others with their projects. The other "experts" are the reason I don't post very often. I've been helping others in the hobby for over 50 years and have never had a customer experience an engine failure, ever. Must be doing something right.
68 Charger 451 / 518
65 Cuda 273 / 833
04 Cummins 2500 2WD
02 Grand Caravan
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1355317
12/20/12 09:20 AM
12/20/12 09:20 AM
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051
The Great White North
RAMM
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,051
The Great White North
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You guys aren't reading it right. The OP states that his 451 generates 600 ft/lbs from 2000 rpm to 4000 rpm! It's not the actual torque number--a VERY well scienced out 451 can do that-just NOT at 2000 rpm. But whatever I'd take a ride in it. J.Rob
2009 PHR\EMC Competitor
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Chargervic]
#1355319
12/20/12 12:05 PM
12/20/12 12:05 PM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
LaRoy Engines
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
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Quote:
Well I for one believe it is possible. I have gone 584 lb-ft at 5000 rpm to 583 lb-ft at 6900 rpm with a peak of 604 lb-ft at 6100 rpm using a pump gas 451 stroker. It'll give 500 lb-ft for a 4000 rpm range, from 3500 rpm to 7500 rpm. You're right it isn't 600, but it's close enough for me to believe someone better'n me could do it.
Thanks for the support.
I didn't post this information to boost my ego. I was asked to post my engine formula in order to help others with their projects. The other "experts" are the reason I don't post very often. I've been helping others in the hobby for over 50 years and have never had a customer experience an engine failure, ever. Must be doing something right.
I've not done it at 2000 rpm, haven't tried and don't think I ever will, as my focus is a whole other direction. But a dyno sheet, if available, would spark another debate I'm sure.
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: LaRoy Engines]
#1355320
12/20/12 12:12 PM
12/20/12 12:12 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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I'd like to see the dyno sheet..... but I have a suspicion he is using a desk top dyno.... if he does have a dyno run post the sheet.... we are curious
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: FastmOp]
#1355325
12/20/12 01:53 PM
12/20/12 01:53 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
You experts need to get a life. He's trying to share his build and you folks are acting like he has done something wrong. He had a nice combo that makes good power and good milage and all you experts keep harking on is the 600tq at 2000 rpm. It makes you all look like tools.
Everyone on here knows that's optimistic as the peak tq. for that combo but you feel you must give your expert opinions ha ha.
How bout you try to work on your cars instead of your post counts! ha ha ha
OP. nice combo, I would like to see some pics of the car. Them old chargers are some of the best looking MoPars made.
If you notice I never said anything bad about his combo
and I have something close to it in my 38 Ply but I
havent driven it yet... so I'm curious about the torque
curve.... I could care less if its off but I would
like to see how flat it is
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: FastmOp]
#1355326
12/20/12 03:59 PM
12/20/12 03:59 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,066
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,066
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
You experts need to get a life. He's trying to share his build and you folks are acting like he has done something wrong. He had a nice combo that makes good power and good milage and all you experts keep harking on is the 600tq at 2000 rpm. It makes you all look like tools.
Everyone on here knows that's optimistic as the peak tq. for that combo but you feel you must give your expert opinions ha ha.
How bout you try to work on your cars instead of your post counts! ha ha ha
OP. nice combo, I would like to see some pics of the car. Them old chargers are some of the best looking MoPars made.
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: JohnRR]
#1355327
12/20/12 04:15 PM
12/20/12 04:15 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,886
S.E. Michigan
ZIPPY
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 17,886
S.E. Michigan
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It only takes one idiot to wreck the whole discussion....
Rich H.
Esse Quam Videri
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Chargervic]
#1355328
12/20/12 04:34 PM
12/20/12 04:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
dannysbee
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,160
Texas
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I for one don't have a Mopar that weighs 4000 lbs runs in the 11's and gets 20 mpg. I am going to be polite and set back and listen. He may not be making 600 ft lbs at 2000 but he certainly has something going on. Your definately not going to get all the details with the warm welcome he has received so far. Merry Christmas
Getting old just means you were smarter than some and luckier than others.
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1355330
12/20/12 05:54 PM
12/20/12 05:54 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,566
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,566
Downtown Roebuck Ont
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Quote:
pretty easy to figure out, he has an overdrive trans and the car runs on a 350cfm carb w/ tiny jets. Good for him. Now get back to the track, un-cap it, jet it up, and run it... I bet you pick up a few tenths... you will have to spin it a tad higher than 5k
The mileage is easy to figure, how he gets 600 ft/lbs @ 2000 without 500+ cubes or boost is the puzzle. What and where does it peak?
Kevin
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Mr.Yuck]
#1355331
12/20/12 05:55 PM
12/20/12 05:55 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 793
Utah
topbrent
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 793
Utah
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: dannysbee]
#1355332
12/20/12 06:08 PM
12/20/12 06:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,066
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,066
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
I for one don't have a Mopar that weighs 4000 lbs runs in the 11's and gets 20 mpg. I am going to be polite and set back and listen. He may not be making 600 ft lbs at 2000 but he certainly has something going on. Your definately not going to get all the details with the warm welcome he has received so far. Merry Christmas
Danny if you notice he has been a member since 2008 and he already said he doesn't usually post here for whatever reason.
I too would like to see the dyno sheet , 600 lb/ft at 2000 rpm is a monumental feat ...
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: JohnRR]
#1355333
12/20/12 06:34 PM
12/20/12 06:34 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 293
Kansas City Metro
mbogina
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Kansas City Metro
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600 Ft Lbs at 2000 RPM is 229 HP, 600 Ft Lbs at 3000 RPM is 343 HP, at 4000 it is 457 HP, at 5000 it is 571 HP,.....a 600 Ft Lb motor from 2000 to 4000 RPM certainly sounds feasible....
Be a Rebel- Break the Laws of Physics!
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: mbogina]
#1355334
12/20/12 06:37 PM
12/20/12 06:37 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,066
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
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Quote:
600 Ft Lbs at 2000 RPM is 229 HP, 600 Ft Lbs at 3000 RPM is 343 HP, at 4000 it is 457 HP, at 5000 it is 571 HP,.....a 600 Ft Lb motor from 2000 to 4000 RPM certainly sounds feasible....
thanks ,I was wondering what the HP numbers could be at the specific RPMs ...
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: JohnRR]
#1355335
12/20/12 07:01 PM
12/20/12 07:01 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
Chargervic
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
600 Ft Lbs at 2000 RPM is 229 HP, 600 Ft Lbs at 3000 RPM is 343 HP, at 4000 it is 457 HP, at 5000 it is 571 HP,.....a 600 Ft Lb motor from 2000 to 4000 RPM certainly sounds feasible....
thanks ,I was wondering what the HP numbers could be at the specific RPMs ...
Okay, guys, numbers coming later tonight when I get time to present the facts. I'm busy washing floors and cleaning house 'cause my grandkids start arriving tomorrow for Christmas. Thanks to the people who are politely waiting for this. When I get the next post done it probably be my last for another 4 years, too much criticism from "experts".
Remember, I've been at this since 1960 and one of my teachers learned directly from the Ramchargers in their shop in 1967
Merry Christmas, Vic
68 Charger 451 / 518
65 Cuda 273 / 833
04 Cummins 2500 2WD
02 Grand Caravan
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Chargervic]
#1355336
12/20/12 07:07 PM
12/20/12 07:07 PM
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 293
Kansas City Metro
mbogina
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 293
Kansas City Metro
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The math is basic, TQ x RPM/5250 = HP. as you can see, at 5250 RPM TQ will always to equal to HP. The low RPM values are what makes Diesels have impressive TQ numbers, 600 Ft Lbs at 1500 RPM is only 171 HP, but will lug that trailer down the road efficiently.
Be a Rebel- Break the Laws of Physics!
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: dangina]
#1355339
12/20/12 09:24 PM
12/20/12 09:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
brads70
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 813
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
If you have more info on the build I'd be very interested in reading on it - I plan on doing a 451 within the next year or so - the more info I can read on the swap before hand the better!
 great combo you'll love it.... revs like a motorcycle 
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: mbogina]
#1355340
12/21/12 02:29 AM
12/21/12 02:29 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
Chargervic
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
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Quote:
600 Ft Lbs at 2000 RPM is 229 HP, 600 Ft Lbs at 3000 RPM is 343 HP, at 4000 it is 457 HP, at 5000 it is 571 HP,.....a 600 Ft Lb motor from 2000 to 4000 RPM certainly sounds feasible....
Hi Guys,
Here’s hoping this post helps those looking for help and doesn’t create a poop storm for the others.
Before I get too deep into this I would ask that the readers read ALL of the story and not pick out small things out of context.
Yes, the numbers I used for my own engine do come from Desk Top Dyno, BUT, I have been using this tool for over 12 years in engine design work and know that if you feed it the truth, it tells you the truth within a couple of percentage points. This has been confirmed by other engine builders I know, and also by an engine test I just completed a short while ago.
This other engine is a 496 low deck stroker built to almost the exact same specs as my engine with two exceptions. The CR is 10.2:1 instead of 10.55:1 which is what I have in mine. The other is of course, the extra cubic inches. They both use the same heads, cam and Six Pack carburetion. The 496 has lighter, shorter pistons due to the longer stoke but that won’t affect performance on the dyno. For a point of interest, we ran a test with only the center carb and made 405 HP, then added only one outboard carb at a time time found that the max HP was available with just one outboard. The second one did not add any power. Of course, most of us with Six Packs just like the eye candy. If you haven't got a Hemi under the hood, a Six Pack is the nest sexiest thing, right?
Here are the numbers for the 496.
Desk Top numbers are first, then the real dyno numbers.
................ HP TQ HP TQ
RPM 3000 324 566 321 561
RPM 3500 381 572 387 580
RPM 4000 431 566 448 588
RPM 4500 470 548 489 571
RPM 5000 491 515 491 518
These are the only places where the two charts have similar RPM values. The max HP on the real dyno occurred at 4800 @ 496.7 HP . Max torque occurred at 3900 @ 590 lb/ft.
As you can see, the overall numbers were very close to each other and, actually the Desk Top Dyno numbers were a bit conservative. For those of you who think that the DTD is from fairly tale land have only seen results from people who enter garbage in and get garbage out. I use the actual facts of the engine as built and enter real flow numbers for the heads, not the generic stuff in the program.
Now for the numbers from my engine which seem to have stirred up a lot of conversation.
I am including the numbers from 2000 RPM to 5500, although I shift at 5000 due to the heavy hydraulic roller lifters and light valve springs and try to avoid any valve float.
............... HP TQ
RPM 2000 229 602
RPM 2500 288 606
RPM 3000 348 609
RPM 3500 403 605
RPM 4000 453 594
RPM 4500 499 569
RPM 5000 502 527
RPM 5500 496 474
Now, the naysayers can dispute the numbers at 2000 RPM and I won’t defend those numbers, for the reason is that my converter is a 2700 RPM stall and therefore I don’t see that RPM under load. However, all those that have ridden in the car both before and after this upgrade will attest that there is a huge amount of torque at those low numbers that wasn’t there before. I’m not talking about a bunch of chebbie guys that wouldn’t know torque if hit them on the head, I’m talking about lifelong Mopar guys who have been in many Mopar hot rods. I have 9.5” wide street tires on it and they are nowhere near enough tire.
For those who said they’d like a ride…. if you’re anywhere near me in the summer, you’re on. Rides freely given. The reason I claimed 515 HP is due to the 115 MPH speed at the track. If you enter that data into the accepted formula in the racing world, it equates to 515 HP at the flywheel. I hope that doesn’t start another controversy. Even if it is not 100% accurate, I can tell you that it is still a blast to drive and I can go well over 250 miles on a stock tank of fuel. That, my friends, is a fun ride.
As for the inevitable question of why my small engine makes more HP & TQ than the bigger one, that is something I struggled with during the computer design phase quite a bit. I ran the numbers many times to make sure I wasn’t missing anything, but finally came to the conclusion that the cam and heads are too small for the bigger displacement and are a perfect fit for the 451. Another small reason for the 496 real dyno numbers being on the light side may be that it is a fresh engine and could easily make more real power after a few hundred miles on the road. We also didn’t spend a lot of time tuning it on the dyno. This is a street engine and we weren’t after the last couple of HP at full RPM. This stroker is replacing a stock HP 383 in a 69 Sport Satellite and my buddy says “I’ll probably notice the difference”. For sure!
I am willing to share any of the finer details of either build with those who are genuinely interested, but please PM me individually. I will answer them as soon as the holidays are over. My family arrives in the morning, so I won’t be on here till after Christmas.
I also have the full documentation of the 518 installation in the Charger for those who would like it. It is well detailed and has several pictures. Will share.
68 Charger 451 / 518
65 Cuda 273 / 833
04 Cummins 2500 2WD
02 Grand Caravan
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Chargervic]
#1355341
12/21/12 02:40 AM
12/21/12 02:40 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
Chargervic
OP
member
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OP
member
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
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Too bad this website can't see the difference between a comma and an apostrophe. My spelling and composing are taking a hit.
For those who asked, here's a picture of the car. I tried to upload it before but couldn't.
Have a Mopar Christmas and a Hemi New Year.
68 Charger 451 / 518
65 Cuda 273 / 833
04 Cummins 2500 2WD
02 Grand Caravan
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Chargervic]
#1355342
12/21/12 02:52 AM
12/21/12 02:52 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Too bad this website can't see the difference between a comma and an apostrophe. My spelling and composing are taking a hit.
For those who asked, here's a picture of the car. I tried to upload it before but couldn't.
Have a Mopar Christmas and a Hemi New Year.
None of your attachments work
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Chargervic]
#1355343
12/21/12 02:54 AM
12/21/12 02:54 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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Sounds like it has alot of dynamic compression, 10.55:1 with a small cam should build a bunch of low end torque if you can prevent detonation.
The build sounds much like my 505" stroked 440, 10.3:1 compression, mild ported stealth heads, Comp 23-712-9 (XR286HR-10) hydraulic roller cam, Hughes lifters, smith brothers pushrods, 1.7:1 cat stainless rockers (I know they are cheap, but I'm experimenting with them), RPM intake, Holley 770 HP carb, TTI 1-7/8" headers with the 2.5" TTI "X" exhaust. I have the Keisler SS700 (0.68 od) 5-speed on order (since early August), so hopefully in 2013 I will have some MPG numbers, and chassis dyno numbers. Right now the stock clutch slips at WOT.
Almost forgot the rear axle is 4.10:1 with 27" tall tires. With the 0.68 OD, that is 2.79:1 drive ratio in OD.
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Chargervic]
#1355345
12/21/12 03:08 AM
12/21/12 03:08 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Too bad this website can't see the difference between a comma and an apostrophe. My spelling and composing are taking a hit.
For those who asked, here's a picture of the car. I tried to upload it before but couldn't.
Have a Mopar Christmas and a Hemi New Year.
None of your attachments work
Sorry about the picture not coming up. Not sure why, I did what the site asked for, I thought. Any hints?
If the pics are on your computer, hit the browse
button then find your pic then double click the pic
then hit the submit on here
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Chargervic]
#1355347
12/21/12 03:49 AM
12/21/12 03:49 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Cool... now do me a favor and post up your dyno sheet... I'm trying to compare your numbers thanks
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Chargervic]
#1355349
12/21/12 08:52 AM
12/21/12 08:52 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Quote:
Cool... now do me a favor and post up your dyno sheet...
I'm trying to compare your numbers
thanks
It's all up there already. The post with the flashing red and green Pentastar.
I'm more concerned with the other numbers, fuel,
oil temp,egt, and the other things that the dyno
would read....I have a engine very close to yours
in my 38 and want to compare
thanks
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1355350
12/21/12 09:23 AM
12/21/12 09:23 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,171
Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,171
Plymouth, MI
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Unrelated from the power discussion, I have to commend you, that is an absolutely beautiful '68. It could have a /6 in there and you should still be proud of that thing!
'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1355353
12/21/12 10:49 AM
12/21/12 10:49 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,300
Northern Indiana
Dunnuck Racing
master
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master
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,300
Northern Indiana
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Cool... now do me a favor and post up your dyno sheet...
I'm trying to compare your numbers
thanks
It's all up there already. The post with the flashing red and green Pentastar.
I'm more concerned with the other numbers, fuel,
oil temp,egt, and the other things that the dyno
would read....I have a engine very close to yours
in my 38 and want to compare
thanks
He stated in his post that the numbers for his engine were from Desktop Dyno. He wont have the other info Mr. P
Keith
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1355355
12/21/12 01:16 PM
12/21/12 01:16 PM
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,566
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick
Still wishing...
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Still wishing...
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,566
Downtown Roebuck Ont
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Sounds like he is quoting a chassis dyno. He says the torque # could be skewed because of his converter which certainly makes sense. Was the 496 done on the same dyno? Same heads cam and intake with 40 odd more cubes should make the same numbers, just at a lower RPM. A different dyno might explain the discrepancy. Oh and that Charger is gorgeous. Kevin
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: Twostick]
#1355356
12/21/12 01:58 PM
12/21/12 01:58 PM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 413
Norway (old world)
Oyvind Mopar
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 413
Norway (old world)
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Hi torque at low rpms is what the auto industry tries to make. And the recipe is long tubes manifold with FI,and free flowing exhaust tuned if possible to low rpms. Good flowing heads make up for the modest cam in the upper rpms. It is much easier for a hobbyist to achieve the high torque in somewhat higher rpms, as ram tuning then does not demand insanely long tubes, and commercial headers are on the spot. This is what makes me wonder how the 600 lbs can be achieved with the described combination at those low rpms. (And do not forget: 500++ lbs down below will also kick butt!!) Is the 2-barrel intake path in the 6-p setup so efficient? This is not criticism, but I am not sure if it is correct. Please allow me to make such a comment, as I struggle for the best results myself (knowing how hard it is to hit correctly), and I am always interested in new-thinking. Maybe the desktop dyno has a black spot down low rpms (like calculating high VE due to "ram tuning")?  And, I would really like to get some tips, as I live in a dark side of the world with pumped up gas taxes, and heavily taxed modern cars (but not the old ones!) so making engines this way is somewhat of a target. If, for nothing else, to feel the torque and hear the sweet V8 rumbling.... And, I have been working with Mopars since 1973, but I am not an "expert" (LOL)
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: cudaman1969]
#1355363
01/02/13 10:26 AM
01/02/13 10:26 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck
Not enough dumb comments...yet
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Not enough dumb comments...yet
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
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Quote:
Not what I wanted to hear so i'll go with higher compression and roller cam, thanks
probaby be easier and cheaper with a supercharger. Buy a used or re-manned Chevy/Furd unit off of e-bay modify the main bracket and roll. You can use whatever you have now. You can also use a lower gear 3.55-3.73. Not sure it will match the mpg of a 6-pack but it should get you close to 17hwy.
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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP
[Re: cudaman1969]
#1355366
01/02/13 08:52 PM
01/02/13 08:52 PM
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
LaRoy Engines
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 559
Idaho
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Camshaft and cylinder heads were the reason it did as well as it did. The 452 heads were flowing in excess of 290 cfm. Later, with 906 heads and the same compression, it was making 694 HP. Both configurations were running on 91 octane. Would it make more with higher compression? Sure!
Last edited by heyoldguy; 01/02/13 08:53 PM.
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