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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1355348
12/21/12 04:14 AM
12/21/12 04:14 AM
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Posts: 42
British Columbia Canada
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Chargervic Offline OP
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Quote:

Cool... now do me a favor and post up your dyno sheet...
I'm trying to compare your numbers
thanks





It's all up there already. The post with the flashing red and green Pentastar.


68 Charger 451 / 518 65 Cuda 273 / 833 04 Cummins 2500 2WD 02 Grand Caravan
Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Chargervic] #1355349
12/21/12 08:52 AM
12/21/12 08:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Cool... now do me a favor and post up your dyno sheet...
I'm trying to compare your numbers
thanks





It's all up there already. The post with the flashing red and green Pentastar.




I'm more concerned with the other numbers, fuel,
oil temp,egt, and the other things that the dyno
would read....I have a engine very close to yours
in my 38 and want to compare
thanks

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1355350
12/21/12 09:23 AM
12/21/12 09:23 AM
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Posts: 8,165
Plymouth, MI
Blusmbl Offline
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Unrelated from the power discussion, I have to commend you, that is an absolutely beautiful '68. It could have a /6 in there and you should still be proud of that thing!


'18 Ford Raptor, random motorcycles, 1968 Plymouth Fury III - 11.37 @ 118
Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Chargervic] #1355351
12/21/12 10:11 AM
12/21/12 10:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,953
Houston, Texas
TheOtherDodge Offline
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That would be VERY Impressive vs my E55 AMG which is a supercharged 5.5 liter making 500 hp and pushes my 4200 lb car to only 12.3's and only gets 24 mpg at 70 mph ave speed.

Maybe technology went the wrong way?

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Chargervic] #1355352
12/21/12 10:25 AM
12/21/12 10:25 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
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Now for the numbers from my engine which seem to have stirred up a lot of conversation.
I am including the numbers from 2000 RPM to 5500, although I shift at 5000 due to the heavy hydraulic roller lifters and light valve springs and try to avoid any valve float.
............... HP TQ
RPM 2000 229 602
RPM 2500 288 606
RPM 3000 348 609
RPM 3500 403 605
RPM 4000 453 594
RPM 4500 499 569
RPM 5000 502 527
RPM 5500 496 474

Vic good looking car... are you worried at all that the thing doesn't make hardly any extra power over 4500? Seems like you are leaving a TON of power on the table there. The cam specs should pull pretty good to about 5800. You might want to address the weak valve springs, if you think that is causing the issue. My cam isn't much bigger and mine junk pulls to 6200 pretty hard. I doubt the torque numbers would change but you'd get more HP and more top end....


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Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1355353
12/21/12 10:49 AM
12/21/12 10:49 AM
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,300
Northern Indiana
Dunnuck Racing Offline
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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Cool... now do me a favor and post up your dyno sheet...
I'm trying to compare your numbers
thanks





It's all up there already. The post with the flashing red and green Pentastar.




I'm more concerned with the other numbers, fuel,
oil temp,egt, and the other things that the dyno
would read....I have a engine very close to yours
in my 38 and want to compare
thanks

He stated in his post that the numbers for his engine were from Desktop Dyno. He wont have the other info Mr. P

Keith




Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Dunnuck Racing] #1355354
12/21/12 12:31 PM
12/21/12 12:31 PM
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Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Romeo MI
He stated in his post that the numbers for his engine were from Desktop Dyno. He wont have the other info Mr. P

Keith





I thought he did his preliminary work with the desk top
then had it dynoed

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1355355
12/21/12 01:16 PM
12/21/12 01:16 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 6,562
Downtown Roebuck Ont
Twostick Offline
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Downtown Roebuck Ont
Sounds like he is quoting a chassis dyno. He says the torque # could be skewed because of his converter which certainly makes sense.

Was the 496 done on the same dyno? Same heads cam and intake with 40 odd more cubes should make the same numbers, just at a lower RPM. A different dyno might explain the discrepancy.

Oh and that Charger is gorgeous.

Kevin

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Twostick] #1355356
12/21/12 01:58 PM
12/21/12 01:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 413
Norway (old world)
Oyvind Mopar Offline
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Norway (old world)
Hi torque at low rpms is what the auto industry tries to make. And the recipe is long tubes manifold with FI,and free flowing exhaust tuned if possible to low rpms. Good flowing heads make up for the modest cam in the upper rpms.
It is much easier for a hobbyist to achieve the high torque in somewhat higher rpms, as ram tuning then does not demand insanely long tubes, and commercial headers are on the spot. This is what makes me wonder how the 600 lbs can be achieved with the described combination at those low rpms. (And do not forget: 500++ lbs down below will also kick butt!!) Is the 2-barrel intake path in the 6-p setup so efficient? This is not criticism, but I am not sure if it is correct. Please allow me to make such a comment, as I struggle for the best results myself (knowing how hard it is to hit correctly), and I am always interested in new-thinking. Maybe the desktop dyno has a black spot down low rpms (like calculating high VE due to "ram tuning")?
And, I would really like to get some tips, as I live in a dark side of the world with pumped up gas taxes, and heavily taxed modern cars (but not the old ones!) so making engines this way is somewhat of a target. If, for nothing else, to feel the torque and hear the sweet V8 rumbling.... And, I have been working with Mopars since 1973, but I am not an "expert" (LOL)

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Chargervic] #1355357
12/21/12 04:58 PM
12/21/12 04:58 PM
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Posts: 3,300
Northern Indiana
Dunnuck Racing Offline
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Yes, the numbers I used for my own engine do come from Desk Top Dyno, BUT, I have been using this tool for over 12 years in engine design work and know that if you feed it the truth, it tells you the truth within a couple of percentage

Hence my statement that the OP doesn't have other dyno info for his engine,Mr.P
Keith

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Chargervic] #1355358
12/22/12 12:09 AM
12/22/12 12:09 AM
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Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar Offline
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Nice car. The Desktop Dyno numbers seem high? What inputs are you using? Is the cam installed more advanced than 106 degrees?
When I put the cam, compression, head flow, etc.. info into Dynomation5 simulator (wave action), I get these numbers:
RPM HP TQ
1000 80 418
1200 95 414
1400 112 419
1600 128 421
1800 146 427
2000 169 444
2200 194 464
2400 220 482
2600 246 498
2800 272 511
3000 292 511
3200 308 506
3400 331 511
3600 364 531
3800 402 555
4000 437 574
4200 469 586
4400 494 590 PK TQ
4600 513 586
4800 528 578
5000 540 568
5200 547 553
5400 550 535
5600 550 516
5800 551 499
6000 552 489 PK HP
6200 552 483
6400 546 448
6600 529 421
6800 509 393
7000 482 362

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: 451Mopar] #1355359
12/22/12 04:57 PM
12/22/12 04:57 PM
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Posts: 5,762
Hot Rod Ridge
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That is a great looking car!

Desk top dyno

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Chargervic] #1355360
01/01/13 08:09 PM
01/01/13 08:09 PM
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fredericksburg,va
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cudaman1969 Offline
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Sounds like a great build. My question, what cam could I get that will produce close numbers with same combo but low 9-1 comp. Don't want a roller just hyd.

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: cudaman1969] #1355361
01/02/13 04:05 AM
01/02/13 04:05 AM
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British Columbia Canada
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Chargervic Offline OP
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Quote:

Sounds like a great build. My question, what cam could I get that will produce close numbers with same combo but low 9-1 comp. Don't want a roller just hyd.




Sorry, but there's no free lunch. There isn't any build I could suggest that would give you numbers close to mine without using a roller cam and higher compression. I had a flat tappet solid cam and 9.6:1 with iron heads before this upgrade which made decent power and torque (500 HP and 528 TQ) but at much higher RPM and nowhere near as flat a curve. Don't forget, it's not all in the components, there's lots in the friction reduction and assembly that helps make the power at the back end of the crank. I built this combo to make good bottom end torque to work with my overdrive trans which gives me a nice highway cruise at 1900 RPM. I don't need or want big top end RPM.


68 Charger 451 / 518 65 Cuda 273 / 833 04 Cummins 2500 2WD 02 Grand Caravan
Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: Chargervic] #1355362
01/02/13 04:12 AM
01/02/13 04:12 AM
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fredericksburg,va
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cudaman1969 Offline
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Not what I wanted to hear so i'll go with higher compression and roller cam, thanks

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: cudaman1969] #1355363
01/02/13 10:26 AM
01/02/13 10:26 AM
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Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
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Brookeville, Md
Quote:

Not what I wanted to hear so i'll go with higher compression and roller cam, thanks




probaby be easier and cheaper with a supercharger. Buy a used or re-manned Chevy/Furd unit off of e-bay modify the main bracket and roll. You can use whatever you have now. You can also use a lower gear 3.55-3.73. Not sure it will match the mpg of a 6-pack but it should get you close to 17hwy.

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: cudaman1969] #1355364
01/02/13 03:17 PM
01/02/13 03:17 PM
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Idaho
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LaRoy Engines Offline
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Quote:

Sounds like a great build. My question, what cam could I get that will produce close numbers with same combo but low 9-1 comp. Don't want a roller just hyd.




Unfortunately this requires a roller cam, but these are the dyno results for a 451, 9.5:1 compression, ported 452 iron heads, single 950 cfm 4-bbl, Comp Cams XR292R solid roller. The horsepower and torque figures are somewhat comparable to the figures previously discussed. It will give you an idea what may be accomplished with the lower compression. Sorry that I don't have any dyno figures for this combination lower than 3900 rpm, but at that time, I just didn't think to ask the operator to pull it any lower.

rpm....TRQ....HP

3900...547....406
4000...547....416
4100...554....432
4200...573....459
4300...574....470
4400...578....484
4500...586....502
4600...588....515
4700...584....522
4800...567....518
4900...569....530
5000...555....529
5100...556....540
5200...563....557
5300...562....567
5400...550....565
5500...547....573
5600...554....591
5700...549....591
5800...546....602
5900...544....611
6000...537....614
6100...534....621
6200...523....618
6300...507....608
6400...500....609
6500...490....607
6600...481....604
6700...471....601
6800...458....593

Last edited by heyoldguy; 01/02/13 03:19 PM.
Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: LaRoy Engines] #1355365
01/02/13 07:55 PM
01/02/13 07:55 PM
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fredericksburg,va
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cudaman1969 Offline
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Interesting numbers, My 9-1 engine wouldn't pull past 5000,mildly ported 452s 900 carb 36 degrees 509 hyd. Gotta be the cam I guess. Ran 7.50 in eight, big 64 savoy, 14/32s TA 3800 vert ,ladder bars. Always figured it was a comp. problem. I Run 93 pump gas.

Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: cudaman1969] #1355366
01/02/13 08:52 PM
01/02/13 08:52 PM
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Idaho
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LaRoy Engines Offline
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Camshaft and cylinder heads were the reason it did as well as it did. The 452 heads were flowing in excess of 290 cfm. Later, with 906 heads and the same compression, it was making 694 HP. Both configurations were running on 91 octane. Would it make more with higher compression? Sure!

Last edited by heyoldguy; 01/02/13 08:53 PM.
Re: 68 Charger 451 engine build 25 MPG and 515 HP [Re: LaRoy Engines] #1355367
01/02/13 10:30 PM
01/02/13 10:30 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
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Oldguy aren't you worried that it doesn't pull above 5k? That cam should work well over 5k. Seems you are leaving a ton of hourses on th etable. why don't you fix the vavle springs. Your MPGs will not go down but your et's sure will.


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