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Dave Dudek just went [Email]11.38@123[/Email] with a legal pure stock hemi super bee. I know a pure stock wedge could not do that.

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I was going to tell you to put a posting in the hemi vs wedge thread...And I agree...A wedge aint getting there...

MB

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Myself I run to look when its a real factory Hemi car like a real 64 Hemi SS car or an original 68 Hemi Roadrunner. I guess we see so many more because they are alot of clones with Hemi's. And I also run when I see a real max Wedge car. Ron

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Dave Dudek just went [Email]11.38@123[/Email] with a legal pure stock hemi super bee. I know a pure stock wedge could not do that.

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Sometimes, cost isn't the factor.......reality is.

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Reality could be a MAJOR factor!! BUT... without cost, how can reality be brought to your garage or
trailered to the track? Cost sets the limit on dreams and ideas, which do turn to reality (if..the price is RIGHT!). Goes back to a ironclad statement: "Speed costs, how fast do you want to go?".

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If you take the whole of my entire post, you will see that the combinations I listed are basically not possible with an inline valve, wedge head.

The reason I mentioned reality is because it is unrealistic to think one can build an inline valve, iron headed MOPAR....within a restricted Superstock rules package and think it could produce 8.20 elasped times, or crest 160+mph in a 3200# 40 year old body style.

Just as a legal Promod, deep into the 5 second zone at 260+mph, or a Fuel car running near 340mph in 1320ft is a job best left to a HEMI style engine.

Not to mention what happens at the local car show, cruise night, or burger joint when the hood pops and common folk notice the plug wires routed into the valve covers.

Realities all and no amount of money can dream the inline head into these territories.

This is not to say that the excellent MOPAR wedge engine doesn't have a huge place in the world of performance. They are strong...reliable...cost effective...powerful alternatives to the more exotic engines in the MOPAR arsenal.

There is plenty of room for both HEMI and wedge engines. My only point is this....as good as both style engines can be, in no way shape or form is the ceiling of the wedge equal to the HEMI....be it in max N/A iron headed form, or all aluminum with a $10,000 supercharger jamming exotic fules into it......PERIOD.

In the mid level and even into some very serious builds, the B1 selections (especially the PSO) are capable of outstanding numbers, but that's when the costs of the engines begins to narrow. Moreover, the technology of builds at this level, seem to favor the wedge engine in a number of build-ups I've seen, including those in this very forum. I have yet to see a Millennium headed engine be assembled with all the trimmings....dry sumps, lobe relocation, raw castings carved with the latest port design, state of the art ring stacks w/max vac......etc.

Bottom line, for most applications, a straight headed MOPAR will get the job done very nicely, but there are certain arenas when a HEMI head and ONLY a HEMI head will do.

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Yes, I read your WHOLE lists of posts and I'll condense my post so you will understsand where I am coming from:

#1 In a comparision of reality and cost, cost dictates the level of speed you quest for 90% of the time. 10% is for ingenuity (free power gains).
#2 I agree that there are areas where ONLY a HEMI head will do, but... DON"T treat it as the "one engine that does it all"! It's raw power dictates it's longevity and unsurpassed power in the 8.90 and faster time brackets and upper racing classes, BUT remember.... the streets/slower bracket classes BELONG to the Wedges! Lower cost to operate. Period. Once again, speed COSTS - how FAST you want to go! Limited street/strip stormer/upper class competitive racer, go HEMI. Super hot "streeter/strip" machine, bracket/lower class racer, go Wedge.

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They are both Mopar so I like them both. But I know the 63 Max Wedge cars were street legal as anyone could buy one. I honestly feel in stock trim the Max Wedge was the fastest Mopar street muscle car sold in the muscle car era. Sure the Hemi was a race eng and would kick but when setup right but on the street in stock form it was held back and the wedge carried the banner for Mopar on the street most of the time. You have to ask yourself.........how many Hemi's did you see on the street in the 60's ? A stock Maxie 62 Dart 413 went 13.44 @ 109 for M/T. Good mph for a stock eng in 1962. 426 Maxie in 63 ran 12.60's @ almost 112 mph with just the cutouts open and Atlas tires. The Hemi to me was like Fords Boss 429 as it was choked out in stock form but was the king of all race engines where it dominated. The wedge had its place in Mopar history for sure and even ran good when prepped out. I dont know if my 63 would go any faster with a Hemi equipped the same as my wedge and thats because of the good heads out there for the wedge today. And everyone knows how well the 440 six pack cars ran on the street. And the Hemi dominated the first 2 years of Pro Stock so much they had to restrict it so GM and Ford could catch up. Ron

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Well put, Ron.. and I agree..

Here is something else to think about.

My 71 Hemi Challenger was bought new by a guy with limited skills.

All he did was.

-Install headers.
-12.5:1 pitons.
-A Rat Roaster(unmodified)
-Carter Competition series carbs
-A Holley Red pump.
-A Racer Brown solid cam
-4.88 gears.

Car went 10.30's@134MPH. All stock suspension. Stock unmodded 4 speed, No spool. No headwork. Other than a big block Vette there probably isnt any musclecar that could go that fast with such relatively minor mods. Even ran the stock dual point distributor. No Chrysler wedge could do that, that I am aware of.

The Hemi really had it..

MB

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sorry but a a 12.5:1 440 w/ a good inatke and carb(s) would run just as well... That's more than just a few bolt ons and far from the hemi's "stock" build. I'd probably run less gear w/ a 440 thou

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I would like to see a 440 with stock heads run those numbers not a chance IMO. However with as cheap as aftermarket heads head go for a wedge you should be able to build one cheaper then a hemi. Dollar for HP i would pick a wedge hands done but Iam building myself a 3rd Gen hemi as we speak

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dollor per doller a wedge beats a hemi.how cheap do you think you could build both to make say 450 horsepower

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Yes, I read your WHOLE lists of posts and I'll condense my post so you will understsand where I am coming from:

#1 In a comparision of reality and cost, cost dictates the level of speed you quest for 90% of the time. 10% is for ingenuity (free power gains).
#2 I agree that there are areas where ONLY a HEMI head will do, but... DON"T treat it as the "one engine that does it all"! It's raw power dictates it's longevity and unsurpassed power in the 8.90 and faster time brackets and upper racing classes, BUT remember.... the streets/slower bracket classes BELONG to the Wedges! Lower cost to operate. Period. Once again, speed COSTS - how FAST you want to go! Limited street/strip stormer/upper class competitive racer, go HEMI. Super hot "streeter/strip" machine, bracket/lower class racer, go Wedge.

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But.....But......But.....the HEMI !!!IS!!! the one engine that does it all. In fact, it's the ONLY engine that does it all.

From 14sec stocker, to 3sec nitro hauler and anything in between. NOTHING else can do thaaaaaaaat.

Plus, if you bring a 440 sixpak car, or Max Wedge machine to the same venue I happen to be at with my HEMICUDA', don't get upset when people stand on those cars to take pictures of mine (once the crowd around it thins out enough to actually be able to see it).

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Funny thing though, the SCORES of WEDGE owners tend think differently. And if you think that anyone going to stand on an A12 car to take a picture of a HEMICUDA, they WILL go home on crutches!! Not cool!! 14 sec Hemi stocker? It's a JOKE!! A tuned Magnum can crack the low 14-high 13 sec barrier. Don't EMBARRASS the HEMI, like that. A HEMI stocker with todays tires and nothing else should run 12.9's-12.5's, weight/chassis depending. Heck a 6-pack can do that and cruise comfortably on the road. I "respect" your HEMICUDA, it is after all a rare car (Plymouth nameplate gone - double rare) and it has "legendary status"! Compare it to a "MAXIE", I'll go with the "MAXIE" time and time again.

Riddle Me This: If the HEMI was or is the "one all" motor,
WHY are there so many options for the WEDGE motors (both big and small) and NOT the HEMI?

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dollor per doller a wedge beats a hemi.how cheap do you think you could build both to make say 450 horsepower

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I'd say whatever a stock HEMI with a dirty air cleaner and a fouled plug costs.

That should be about right to hit 450hp with a typical street HEMI.

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Thats good, Jim!!

There is just no end to the Hemi envy on this site...I guess the next comeback is that, "yeah, but my wedge motor is lighter"...remember guys, we are all on the same team...

I get sick and tired of people thinking only Arab Shieks and hedge fund managers can own hemi's..Plenty of regular folks own hemi cars including myself...

MB

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I'd say whatever a stock HEMI with a dirty air cleaner and a fouled plug costs.

That should be about right to hit 450hp with a typical street HEMI.

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With the two "problems" listed above, even a 383
Magnum WILL walk by a HEMI off the line.


There is just no end to the WEDGE envy on this site...I guess the next comeback is that, "yeah, but my HEMI motor is much faster"...remember guys, we are all on the same team...

I get sick and tired of people thinking only "select few" or "all-out racers" can own hemi's..Plenty of "lucky" regular folks own hemi cars including myself...

MB

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Again nothing wrong with that...it's just the "superiority thing" we DON"T agree with!!

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Mr. "Sonic", have you no sense of humor??? Were you not blessed withe the gift of mirth & merriment???

"Shirley" you understand I often speak with tongue firmly planted in cheek....do you not???

Superiority, much like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. It's ill-advised to believe one is superior simply because one pilots a HEMI, especially when my smallblock will bury an alarming number of 440s and HEMIs.

Like I've said......I like em' all.

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I'd say whatever a stock HEMI with a dirty air cleaner and a fouled plug costs.

That should be about right to hit 450hp with a typical street HEMI.

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With the two "problems" listed above, even a 383
Magnum WILL walk by a HEMI off the line.


There is just no end to the WEDGE envy on this site...I guess the next comeback is that, "yeah, but my HEMI motor is much faster"...remember guys, we are all on the same team...

I get sick and tired of people thinking only "select few" or "all-out racers" can own hemi's..Plenty of "lucky" regular folks own hemi cars including myself...

MB

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Again nothing wrong with that...it's just the "superiority thing" we DON"T agree with!!

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Mr. "Sonic", have you no sense of humor??? Were you not blessed withe the gift of mirth & merriment???

"Shirley" you understand I often speak with tongue firmly planted in cheek....do you not???

Superiority, much like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. It's ill-advised to believe one is superior simply because one pilots a HEMI, especially when my smallblock will bury an alarming number of 440s and HEMIs.

Like I've said......I like em' all.

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"Shirley"


dont call me SHIRLEY

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I'd say whatever a stock HEMI with a dirty air cleaner and a fouled plug costs.

That should be about right to hit 450hp with a typical street HEMI.

---

With the two "problems" listed above, even a 383
Magnum WILL walk by a HEMI off the line.


There is just no end to the WEDGE envy on this site...I guess the next comeback is that, "yeah, but my HEMI motor is much faster"...remember guys, we are all on the same team...

I get sick and tired of people thinking only "select few" or "all-out racers" can own hemi's..Plenty of "lucky" regular folks own hemi cars including myself...

MB

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Again nothing wrong with that...it's just the "superiority thing" we DON"T agree with!!

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Mr. "Sonic", have you no sense of humor??? Were you not blessed withe the gift of mirth & merriment???

"Shirley" you understand I often speak with tongue firmly planted in cheek....do you not???

Superiority, much like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. It's ill-advised to believe one is superior simply because one pilots a HEMI, especially when my smallblock will bury an alarming number of 440s and HEMIs.

Like I've said......I like em' all.

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"Shirley"


dont call me SHIRLEY

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Atta boy.

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I'd say whatever a stock HEMI with a dirty air cleaner and a fouled plug costs.

That should be about right to hit 450hp with a typical street HEMI.

---

With the two "problems" listed above, even a 383
Magnum WILL walk by a HEMI off the line.


There is just no end to the WEDGE envy on this site...I guess the next comeback is that, "yeah, but my HEMI motor is much faster"...remember guys, we are all on the same team...

I get sick and tired of people thinking only "select few" or "all-out racers" can own hemi's..Plenty of "lucky" regular folks own hemi cars including myself...

MB

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Again nothing wrong with that...it's just the "superiority thing" we DON"T agree with!!

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Mr. "Sonic", have you no sense of humor??? Were you not blessed withe the gift of mirth & merriment???

Sense of humor I have, bordering on the "brink" of SARCASM!!

"Shirley" you understand I often speak with tongue firmly planted in cheek....do you not???

"Shirley" was an ex-girlfriend of mine. Great woman, but not marrying material.

Superiority, much like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. It's ill-advised to believe one is superior simply because one pilots a HEMI, especially when my smallblock will bury an alarming number of 440s and HEMIs.

Like I've said......I like em' all.

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That's great for you , but it's only an opinion, just like I have an opinion. So what's your point, besides stirring!!


"Shirley"


dont call me SHIRLEY

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Atta boy.

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You guys WATCH too much "daytime" tv. Must be NICE when you "own" a HEMI!!