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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1244318
06/14/12 03:26 PM
06/14/12 03:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
68Plymouths
member
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member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
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Quote:
Quote:
I've bump steered my Barracuda, and I don't have massive bump steer.  Pretty close to what a new Challenger is. Have you bump steered your car yourself?
Caster gain typically comes from anti dive in the upper control arm. Stock coil spring cars have similar anti dive angles. There are templetes that alter caster gain by removing anti dive (guldstrand templetes)
Can you show us the measurements of the Caster gain on a stock:
1970 Chevelle?
1970 Mustang?
1970 Camaro?
And compare those measured on popular Mopar models?
Porsche 911's had torsion bars up to about 10 years ago. Sprint cars all run torsion bars.
Let's see...
Yes.
I agree, but in so saying you agree that the upper a-arm is moved from it's stock location.
Nope, don't own any of those. And don't care, not comparing to a Chevelle/Camaro/Mustang.
Some sprint cars do use a torsion bar, but I've never seen one. Also, many sprint cars use a Jacob's ladder rear susension. Those boys aren't right...
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: 68Plymouths]
#1244320
06/14/12 04:28 PM
06/14/12 04:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
I've bump steered my Barracuda, and I don't have massive bump steer. Pretty close to what a new Challenger is. Have you bump steered your car yourself?
Caster gain typically comes from anti dive in the upper control arm. Stock coil spring cars have similar anti dive angles. There are templetes that alter caster gain by removing anti dive (guldstrand templetes)
Can you show us the measurements of the Caster gain on a stock:
1970 Chevelle?
1970 Mustang?
1970 Camaro?
And compare those measured on popular Mopar models?
Porsche 911's had torsion bars up to about 10 years ago. Sprint cars all run torsion bars.
Quote:
Let's see...
Yes.
What body type? What were your bump steer numbers?
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I agree, but in so saying you agree that the upper a-arm is moved from it's stock location.
My A-body UCA has not been moved from stock pickup points.
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Nope, don't own any of those. And don't care, not comparing to a Chevelle/Camaro/Mustang.
Then what are you comparing it too? You say it's crap, that's implying you're comparing it to something.
Quote:
In fact, I can't recall seeing a torsion bar suspension on ANY race car that takes corners in the last 25 years. If it is so f-ing good, you would think someone would use it...
Full purpose built class road race or circle track cars need lots of adjustabilty. And do so within a budget of a race team. Guys driving street cars don't have 10 sets of front springs, 8 other shocks, mulitple upper control arms, adjustable suspension pick up points with slugs, on and on and on...
I didn't think this discussion was on full road race or circle track cars racing within class rules. I don't think an Alterkion or any other pre made bolt on front end for Mopar would be an optimal setup for those types of racing nor thier class rules.
Torsion might not be the best for all situations. Mostly packaging and part availability reasons. But I don't think they are inherently crap. It's just another way to stick a spring on any suspension linkage.
Last edited by autoxcuda; 06/14/12 04:44 PM.
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1244321
06/14/12 04:33 PM
06/14/12 04:33 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
68Plymouths
member
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member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
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Did I mention I love stirring the pot?  Looks like it worked...  And it's still crap, as I pointed out before that's ->  Don't like it, too bad.
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: 68Plymouths]
#1244322
06/14/12 04:46 PM
06/14/12 04:46 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
Did I mention I love stirring the pot?
Looks like it worked...
And it's still crap, as I pointed out before that's ->
Don't like it, too bad.
So your points are pointless.
You are just stirring the pot as you admit to. You are just here to antagonize.
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: PHJ426]
#1244325
06/14/12 08:26 PM
06/14/12 08:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
67autocross
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,074
Manitoba Canada
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Is the lady with the rod from "Milford" ?
A new iron curtain drawn across the 49th parallel
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: 67autocross]
#1244326
06/14/12 08:32 PM
06/14/12 08:32 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
PHJ426
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,456
Fly Over States
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Quote:
Is the lady with the rod from "Milford" ?
I doubt that...........if she was originally she fled as soon as she could, 68Plymouths is from there and he was so I couldn't help and had to ask him how slow things are in Milford........as to make a pointless diversion here on the topic.
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: 68Plymouths]
#1244327
06/14/12 08:45 PM
06/14/12 08:45 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Quote:
In fact, I can't recall seeing a torsion bar suspension on ANY race car that takes corners in the last 25 years. If it is so f-ing good, you would think someone would use it... 
Go away and start fires somewhere else.
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: PHJ426]
#1244328
06/14/12 08:59 PM
06/14/12 08:59 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
68Plymouths
member
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member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
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Quote:
Must be slow days in Milford, watching the grass grow and paint dry. 
Always!!!! 
Just because I'm , doesn't mean that my points are pointless. I just know that no matter what points are made there are some purists that believe the MOPAR torsion bar suspension is the greatest thing ever. If you want it on your car, that's fine with me. But why knock what someone else is doing??? The Alterkation seems to to be a pretty darn good system. I've hatcheted up my Satellite by building a tubular/coil-over front suspension that corrects the geometry issues in the original design, but someone on here looked at the pics and said it was "junk." (Frankenduster, I believe  ) I invite him to come here and see it in person. Things are kinda slow in corn country, since the corn hasn't even tasselled out yet, so I have plenty of time. 
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: 68Plymouths]
#1244331
06/15/12 01:46 AM
06/15/12 01:46 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
Quote:
Must be slow days in Milford, watching the grass grow and paint dry.
Always!!!!
Just because I'm , doesn't mean that my points are pointless. I just know that no matter what points are made there are some purists that believe the MOPAR torsion bar suspension is the greatest thing ever. If you want it on your car, that's fine with me. But why knock what someone else is doing??? The Alterkation seems to to be a pretty darn good system. I've hatcheted up my Satellite by building a tubular/coil-over front suspension that corrects the geometry issues in the original design, but someone on here looked at the pics and said it was "junk." (Frankenduster, I believe ) I invite him to come here and see it in person. Things are kinda slow in corn country, since the corn hasn't even tasselled out yet, so I have plenty of time.
I'm not saying the T-bars are the greatest ever. Just ONE of the ways to do put a spring on the system.
Alterkation is not "junk" either.
Nor is your system junk. It seems close to stock geometry with just the anti dive taken out it. And you chose to attach the spring at the end of the LCA. And chose to use a coil type spring. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post6622247
68Plymouths'
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1244332
06/15/12 02:51 AM
06/15/12 02:51 AM
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
72Swinger
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 4,302
Nebraska
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It was cool to read Mopar Actions Bob Tarzolli(sp)bio about the Trans Am E-body days and how Gurney insisted on taking all the anti-dive out of those cars against Bobs better judgement. SO he did and they drove like sh** and were quickly put back the way they were.
Mopar to the bone!!!
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: 72Swinger]
#1244333
06/15/12 03:05 AM
06/15/12 03:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,468
So Cal
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Quote:
It was cool to read Mopar Actions Bob Tarzolli(sp)bio about the Trans Am E-body days and how Gurney insisted on taking all the anti-dive out of those cars against Bobs better judgement. SO he did and they drove like sh** and were quickly put back the way they were.
We had Bob Tarozzi in person at Spring Fling Speed Festival a while back and I heard that story first hand.
Bob eluded that Dan Gurney wasn't real helpful testing. He had such a great talent to compensate for the a race car with issues that it was tough to judge what adjustments were good or bad. It was more helpful having Swede test it.
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1244334
06/15/12 09:55 AM
06/15/12 09:55 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
68Plymouths
member
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member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Must be slow days in Milford, watching the grass grow and paint dry.
Always!!!!
Just because I'm , doesn't mean that my points are pointless. I just know that no matter what points are made there are some purists that believe the MOPAR torsion bar suspension is the greatest thing ever. If you want it on your car, that's fine with me. But why knock what someone else is doing??? The Alterkation seems to to be a pretty darn good system. I've hatcheted up my Satellite by building a tubular/coil-over front suspension that corrects the geometry issues in the original design, but someone on here looked at the pics and said it was "junk." (Frankenduster, I believe ) I invite him to come here and see it in person. Things are kinda slow in corn country, since the corn hasn't even tasselled out yet, so I have plenty of time.
I'm not saying the T-bars are the greatest ever. Just ONE of the ways to do put a spring on the system.
Alterkation is not "junk" either.
Nor is your system junk. It seems close to stock geometry with just the anti dive taken out it. And you chose to attach the spring at the end of the LCA. And chose to use a coil type spring. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post6622247
68Plymouths'
I've also changed the pick-up points for the tie-rods to minimize bump steer. Just finished painting and am doing final assembly. I still need to finish the brake lines and align it to see what it's going to do. My whole idea was to correct the basic issues with the stock system without having to buy a $3,000+ k-member. I saw the Hotchkiss a-arms for $800 and thought I could do it a lot cheaper (not counting my time of course) Plus I like cutting s**t apart and doing my own thing. I probably have $200 in materials, not counting the coil-overs, which were semi-donated to the project by Slantzilla. 
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: 68Plymouths]
#1244336
06/15/12 11:17 AM
06/15/12 11:17 AM
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Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
Dan@Hotchkis
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 841
Santa Fe Springs, CA
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Must be slow days in Milford, watching the grass grow and paint dry.
Always!!!!
Just because I'm , doesn't mean that my points are pointless. I just know that no matter what points are made there are some purists that believe the MOPAR torsion bar suspension is the greatest thing ever. If you want it on your car, that's fine with me. But why knock what someone else is doing??? The Alterkation seems to to be a pretty darn good system. I've hatcheted up my Satellite by building a tubular/coil-over front suspension that corrects the geometry issues in the original design, but someone on here looked at the pics and said it was "junk." (Frankenduster, I believe ) I invite him to come here and see it in person. Things are kinda slow in corn country, since the corn hasn't even tasselled out yet, so I have plenty of time.
I'm not saying the T-bars are the greatest ever. Just ONE of the ways to do put a spring on the system.
Alterkation is not "junk" either.
Nor is your system junk. It seems close to stock geometry with just the anti dive taken out it. And you chose to attach the spring at the end of the LCA. And chose to use a coil type spring. https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/show...rue#Post6622247
68Plymouths'
I've also changed the pick-up points for the tie-rods to minimize bump steer. Just finished painting and am doing final assembly. I still need to finish the brake lines and align it to see what it's going to do. My whole idea was to correct the basic issues with the stock system without having to buy a $3,000+ k-member. I saw the Hotchkiss a-arms for $800 and thought I could do it a lot cheaper (not counting my time of course) Plus I like cutting s**t apart and doing my own thing. I probably have $200 in materials, not counting the coil-overs, which were semi-donated to the project by Slantzilla.
Any plans for bracing the upper shock mount? And for using the LCA "pin hole", did you make a tapered sleeve for the bolt so it wouldn't be able to walk in the rear mounting location? And lastly, will the strut rod be able to provide enough "anti-roll" to the LCA? Seems like the LCA could twist pretty easily. Other than that seems like a pretty cool design as long as you cage the rest of the car.
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Re: Return of ALTERKATION fued
[Re: Dan@Hotchkis]
#1244337
06/15/12 11:37 AM
06/15/12 11:37 AM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
68Plymouths
member
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member
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 39
Milford, IL
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I am planning on bracing the upper shock mount. The lower is held into the k-member with a 2" long threaded bung welded into the k-member and I've added a bracket to the frame (not seen in this picture) to make the LCA mounting a double shear point. The LCA arm is isn't on a heim, it is a rubber bushed mounting sold by Speedway. I've added a jam nut, so there will be some deflection in the bushing, but I don't anticipate it will roll much. http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Garage-Sale-QA1-Adventure-Series-Rock-Ends-w-Bushing,9387.html
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