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Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
#1237604
05/22/12 12:25 PM
05/22/12 12:25 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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OK.. so I could have SWORN that I installed a Pertronix ignitor module inside the distributor on my Dart about 8 yrs ago .. today I went out to continue with my troubleshooting, to try to figure out why the car doesn't want to idle properly.. opened up the distributor cap, I was going to test for low voltage at idle... and I noticed the inside of the distributor appears to be the stock Electronic Ignition magnetic pickup... NOT the Ignitor module... can anyone either confirm or deny this for me?
Last edited by Cal_Gecko; 05/23/12 03:14 AM.
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: OzHemi]
#1237608
05/22/12 12:45 PM
05/22/12 12:45 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
Correct, that is a stock style electronic setup (looks new?)
Be sure and check the air gap on it with a non-magnetic feeler guage. 
Mark are you still having the idle problem ?
I was digging thru my box of distributor parts and came across a bag with the electronics guts from a smallblock distributor that I parted out and was going to send them to you , no need now .
Check to see if that has the adjustable mechanical advance, I don't think it does from what I can see, if it doesn't keep your initial timing to about 8 degrees max. the one I have that is non adjustable had a 13 on it so that is 26 degrees of mechanical advance.
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237609
05/22/12 12:48 PM
05/22/12 12:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,154
Its a TRAP!
DARTH V8Я
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Oh No!! I just had a moron attack!
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Its a TRAP!
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.006"-.008" for the airgap (matchbook cover thickness aprox, but buy/borrow some brass feeler gauges). Adequate spark would be 20000v+ at the gap, which should be aprox .035-.045".
When it takes more than a sweet mullet to prove you rule at the trailer park..
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237610
05/22/12 12:48 PM
05/22/12 12:48 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
I may have replaced it way back when... in an effort to troubleshoot the idle issue.. I"m not sure. So.. I've got this wired to the MSD 6AL box, to the coil. Not using the Chrysler ignition module box (per MSD instructions)... and I'm using an MSD Blaster 2 coil.
So - to check the air gap .. what should the measurement be? can I just use a credit card to set the gap? Or is that not the proper measurement?
Also - what are the best ways to troubleshoot the ignition system to ensure it is providing adequate spark at idle?
the gap is .006 , credit card is to thick , you can get a brass feeler gauge set for cheap money at the local parts store , they have just a brass set with 3 or 4 sizes for about $10 or so ...
What are you using for a ballast resistor ? Blastor 2 coil could be run without a ballast I think ...
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237612
05/22/12 12:52 PM
05/22/12 12:52 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
JohnRR - yeah, still having idle problems..
Like I said, this would have been purchased (by me) about 8 years ago or so .. probably as a 'rebuilt' unit at an auto parts store, I don't remember.
That tells me it's not the adjustable unit . don't pull it out unless you need to .
Now you need to borrow another carb .
what do you have the timing set at now ?
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237615
05/22/12 01:09 PM
05/22/12 01:09 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 104,346
Garden Grove, CA
OzHemi
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The MSD box and coil together should give you a plenty hot spark..  Double check the gap in the distributor, and wonder if the MSD was hooked up backwards if it would give similar issues? (the trigger wires to the distributor that is) Once you get the ignition side of things checked for sure and can see you have a nice hot spark, then move on to checking carb maybe, etc... (When I ran the 6AL and MSD coil on my Oz Charger, I could lay a plug wire on the valve cover with no plug in it, and you could see the spark jump from inside the wire to the valve cover.)
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237619
05/22/12 01:26 PM
05/22/12 01:26 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
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Quote:
I can tell, just by looking at what the .006 steel feeler gauge looks like, that the gap in my distributor is far more than that.
Good because it should be .007"
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237621
05/22/12 01:42 PM
05/22/12 01:42 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
I can tell, just by looking at what the .006 steel feeler gauge looks like, that the gap in my distributor is far more than that.
This would affect how it runs , plus get that timing dialed back once you get the gap set.
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237622
05/22/12 01:44 PM
05/22/12 01:44 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
for reference, here's a better shot of the top of the distributor.
I'll swing over to the auto parts store on my way in to work in a bit, and pick up some brass feeler gauges. I'm guessing my steel ones won't work accurately with the magnet 
That is the non adjustable unit .
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: JohnRR]
#1237623
05/22/12 01:56 PM
05/22/12 01:56 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406
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Quote:
plus get that timing dialed back once you get the gap set.
WRONG!!!
Fix/weld the mechanical advance plate so the engine can have the proper initial.
Carry on
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: OzHemi]
#1237630
05/23/12 02:07 AM
05/23/12 02:07 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Well, I adjusted the air gap between the reluctor and pickup.. tightened up the gap to where it should be ... started it up.. no noticeable difference  .. I tried adjusting the idle mixture screws, didn't see any improvement. I turned off all the lights in the garage, and looked for any arcing, didn't see any .. was hoping something might be obvious. I swapped out all the plugs with brand new plugs (same kind, the Autolite AL65's, gapped to .040).. this seemed to help.. I was able to reduce the idle speed down to where it was ROUGHLY idle around 600 rpm and stay there... but it was bucking around in the engine bay like a PO'd bull, and the vacuum dropped to about 5 ... also noticed some smoke coming out the breather on the valve cover.. is that because I had the PCV disconnected and plugged? The exhaust was really pungent too... 10pm came around quickly (I didn't get home from work until 8pm, and then had dinner), so that's about where I wrapped up. The VERY interesting thing, is that according to my dial-back timing light, the best idle I was able to get was with about 25 degrees of initial timing.
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237632
05/23/12 04:22 AM
05/23/12 04:22 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
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Quote:
Well, I adjusted the air gap between the reluctor and pickup.. tightened up the gap to where it should be ... Set to .008, right?
I swapped out all the plugs with brand new plugs (same kind, the Autolite AL65's, gapped to .040) Using a factory distributor, the plug gap should be at .035. ... also noticed some smoke coming out the breather on the valve cover.. is that because I had the PCV disconnected and plugged?
All street engines need some sort of PCV system. Even zero mile engines produce blow-by. The PCV evacuates pressure from the crankcase AND creates a suction that PULLS the rings outward, helping ring seal. The smoke coming from the breather will occur unless you run a PCV system. It shouldn't be dismissed as "Smog crap" since it actually helps performance while making the engine run cleaner.
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237634
05/23/12 10:41 AM
05/23/12 10:41 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 5,048
Atlanta Indiana
Dave Watt
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Quote:
for reference, here's a better shot of the top of the distributor.
I'll swing over to the auto parts store on my way in to work in a bit, and pick up some brass feeler gauges. I'm guessing my steel ones won't work accurately with the magnet
I don't think that is a stock pickup. The factory ones are a black molded plastic, yours apprears to be shrink wrapped or electrical tape. Maybe it is an early Pertronix? Also the white wires are not what you would see on an original or aftermarket. I'd be tempted to install a stock one in there and see how it acts. My buddy went through 2 Pertronix before getting a good one the third time. 
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: Dave Watt]
#1237635
05/23/12 11:22 AM
05/23/12 11:22 AM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
for reference, here's a better shot of the top of the distributor.
I'll swing over to the auto parts store on my way in to work in a bit, and pick up some brass feeler gauges. I'm guessing my steel ones won't work accurately with the magnet
I don't think that is a stock pickup. The factory ones are a black molded plastic, yours apprears to be shrink wrapped or electrical tape. Maybe it is an early Pertronix? Also the white wires are not what you would see on an original or aftermarket. I'd be tempted to install a stock one in there and see how it acts. My buddy went through 2 Pertronix before getting a good one the third time.
It's not a factory pickup that is for sure and it's definitely not a pertronics as they don't use a reluctor wheel like that.
Mark as far as your idle 600 is TOO low , car is an automatic it's going to stall as soon as you put it in gear. set your idle speed to 900 .
As you noticed the timing dropped but the one thing you have to remember is the MSD fires multiple times on each fire of a cylinder below 3000 rpms and as mention some timing lights don't like that .
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: JohnRR]
#1237636
05/23/12 12:19 PM
05/23/12 12:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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OK.. so one issue resolved - as it turns out, I had the timing light pick-up backwards on the plug wire... I turned it around, and the timing mark isn't bouncing any more... hallelujah for one issue being resolved. I adjusted the idle some more this morning... here's a video of it idling right at 1000 rpm, along with vacuum gauge readings. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PJFZTCcdfoIt's still not idling as smooth as I would expect, especially based on some other videos I've seen posted of 360's with this same cam. Also, I'm not understanding how/why it will idle the BEST with 30 degrees advance
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237637
05/23/12 01:00 PM
05/23/12 01:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Frankenduster - thanks.. I thought the plug gap was supposed to be .035, but I had read on another thread somewhere on Moparts (in all my Google searches for ignition problems I've been doing) to set it at .040 ... I still need to re-do my compression test.. so when I pull the plugs out for that, I can re-gap the new plugs. I do remember reading that this cam (Comp Cam XE268H) will have a more noticeably rough idle in an engine with stock compression.. since this is a reman. engine, it does have stock compression - around 8.4:1 I think is what was stock. Gonna swing in to NAPA today and get a cap/rotor for the distributor.. .just part of the process of throwing money at it, hoping to make a difference
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237638
05/23/12 01:21 PM
05/23/12 01:21 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
It's still not idling as smooth as I would expect, especially based on some other videos I've seen posted of 360's with this same cam. Also, I'm not understanding how/why it will idle the BEST with 30 degrees advance
You need to bring the RPM up and see what the timing is doing! If it keeps advancing you are going to have a huge problem when it tries to run with almost 60 degrees advance , nevermind when the vacuum can starts adding more ...
heres something dumb I didn't ask , can you see the springs on the advance weights when you look down inside the distributor ?
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: RobX4406]
#1237639
05/23/12 01:23 PM
05/23/12 01:23 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
plus get that timing dialed back once you get the gap set.
WRONG!!!
Fix/weld the mechanical advance plate so the engine can have the proper initial.
Carry on
No , not really.
That is something he could/should eventually do but for right now to figure out what is going on he needs to keep it no higher than 5-8 .
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237640
05/23/12 01:26 PM
05/23/12 01:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets
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Senior Management
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Irving, TX
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Do you have a vacuum gauge?
If so, stick it on the engine. Get your idle up to 900 rpm as suggested. Diddle with your timing until you have the highest vacuum signal. It needs to be as steady as possible despite the rough idling cam.
Once that is set, turn your idle mixture screws in until the rpm begine to drop. Then turn them out until you have the highest steady vacuum signal.
If you still have issues other than a lumpy cam idle let us know.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: feets]
#1237641
05/23/12 01:29 PM
05/23/12 01:29 PM
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Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
Do you have a vacuum gauge?
If so, stick it on the engine. Get your idle up to 900 rpm as suggested. Diddle with your timing until you have the highest vacuum signal. It needs to be as steady as possible despite the rough idling cam.
Once that is set, turn your idle mixture screws in until the rpm begine to drop. Then turn them out until you have the highest steady vacuum signal.
If you still have issues other than a lumpy cam idle let us know.
I adjusted the idle some more this morning... here's a video of it idling right at 1000 rpm, along with vacuum gauge readings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PJFZTCcdfo
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: JohnRR]
#1237642
05/23/12 01:35 PM
05/23/12 01:35 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
plus get that timing dialed back once you get the gap set.
WRONG!!!
Fix/weld the mechanical advance plate so the engine can have the proper initial.
Carry on
No , not really.
That is something he could/should eventually do but for right now to figure out what is going on he needs to keep it no higher than 5-8 .
How much total it has right now don't mean jack shyat...
He needs to get his idle issue sorted out and TOTAL plays absolutely no part in that area of the equation. Time that car at 5-8* initial and it will run worse than he could ever imagine.
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: JohnRR]
#1237643
05/23/12 01:35 PM
05/23/12 01:35 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
Quote:
It's still not idling as smooth as I would expect, especially based on some other videos I've seen posted of 360's with this same cam. Also, I'm not understanding how/why it will idle the BEST with 30 degrees advance
You need to bring the RPM up and see what the timing is doing! If it keeps advancing you are going to have a huge problem when it tries to run with almost 60 degrees advance , nevermind when the vacuum can starts adding more ...
heres something dumb I didn't ask , can you see the springs on the advance weights when you look down inside the distributor ?
When I bring the RPM's up, it does increase the total timing, I believe it went up to around 42 or so...
I didn't see the springs.. this was the view...
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: JohnRR]
#1237644
05/23/12 02:00 PM
05/23/12 02:00 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,890
Oregon
hooziewhatsit
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Quote:
Quote:
It's still not idling as smooth as I would expect, especially based on some other videos I've seen posted of 360's with this same cam. Also, I'm not understanding how/why it will idle the BEST with 30 degrees advance
You need to bring the RPM up and see what the timing is doing! If it keeps advancing you are going to have a huge problem when it tries to run with almost 60 degrees advance , nevermind when the vacuum can starts adding more ...
heres something dumb I didn't ask , can you see the springs on the advance weights when you look down inside the distributor ?
No kidding! Wouldn't that be something if the springs were both missing/broken 
And Cal, I was in your same spot ~5 years ago. Used carb on a used intake, and it ran like poo  Couldn't touch the throttle for 10 minutes while it warmed up, and it still drove like crap. Eventually I figured out each little issue, and it drives almost perfectly now. Keep at it 
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237646
05/23/12 02:04 PM
05/23/12 02:04 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
OK... I did some more tweaking .. got it to 15 degrees advance at idle.. it struggles, but it'll stay idling, but fluctuates between 800-1000
I listened to the video , something is not right it should not be idling like that .
Can you borrow a carb from someone ?
And I can't see the springs in that shot above , they are under the plate.
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: RobX4406]
#1237648
05/23/12 02:06 PM
05/23/12 02:06 PM
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JohnRR
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
plus get that timing dialed back once you get the gap set.
WRONG!!!
Fix/weld the mechanical advance plate so the engine can have the proper initial.
Carry on
No , not really.
That is something he could/should eventually do but for right now to figure out what is going on he needs to keep it no higher than 5-8 .
How much total it has right now don't mean jack shyat...
He needs to get his idle issue sorted out and TOTAL plays absolutely no part in that area of the equation. Time that car at 5-8* initial and it will run worse than he could ever imagine.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, there is no way that cam he has needs 30 degrees of initial timing to run right .
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: JohnRR]
#1237649
05/23/12 02:21 PM
05/23/12 02:21 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
plus get that timing dialed back once you get the gap set.
WRONG!!!
Fix/weld the mechanical advance plate so the engine can have the proper initial.
Carry on
No , not really.
That is something he could/should eventually do but for right now to figure out what is going on he needs to keep it no higher than 5-8 .
How much total it has right now don't mean jack shyat...
He needs to get his idle issue sorted out and TOTAL plays absolutely no part in that area of the equation. Time that car at 5-8* initial and it will run worse than he could ever imagine.
I guess we will have to agree to disagree, there is no way that cam he has needs 30 degrees of initial timing to run right .
Now that I agree with. It should run in the 14-18* range pretty easily IF everything is right. Total doesn't matter here, second piece of the ignition timing puzzle. He's not driving it, nor putting any load on it.
If that car starts easily with 30* initial on it, it's got no cylinder pressure. He had it apart and from what I understand didn't bother to degree the cam with the old timing set nor the new one...
I wonder if he fixed any of the other issues he had from the other threads. I'll bet one particular big one is still left unresolved.
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: Moparnut426]
#1237651
05/23/12 02:39 PM
05/23/12 02:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 15,118
85086
moparpollack
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Lil Herman
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Are you running the car on the factory tank or a gas can? Did the car have old gas in it? or is it a new tank with new gas?
Are all the grounds good on the ignition box, motor, and battery?
Did the carb sit for a long period of time with old gas in the bowls? Are the carb butterflies closed all the way or hung up on a gasket?
Did you try spraying carb cleaner around the intake and carb bases to check for a air leak?
Are the sparkplug wires tight on the plugs, maybe a bad set of wires even though they are new?
56 Plaza 63 D100 step side 67 Coronet, 68 Roadrunner, 69 Super Bees, 69 Coronet 500 convertible, 70 Roadrunner Post, 79 D150 360, and a severe case of Mopar a,d,d
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: moparpollack]
#1237653
05/23/12 03:23 PM
05/23/12 03:23 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
Are you running the car on the factory tank or a gas can? Did the car have old gas in it? or is it a new tank with new gas?
factory tank.. we took it out and looked in it - it was in great shape inside.. there was barely any gas left in it, and about 8 gallons of new fuel was put into it.
Quote:
Are all the grounds good on the ignition box, motor, and battery?
As far as I know... I can add that to the list of things to check, just to tighten them down.
Quote:
Did the carb sit for a long period of time with old gas in the bowls? Are the carb butterflies closed all the way or hung up on a gasket?
It did sit for a while.. I went through it about 2 years ago, cleaned it all out and put in new gaskets.. but after that, it was just started a couple times. Good question about the carb butterflies.. I haven't looked at that.
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Did you try spraying carb cleaner around the intake and carb bases to check for a air leak?
I did.. it seems to be ok.. when I'm spraying around the carb, it does increase idle a bit, but I think that is from overspray making it into the top of the carb.
Quote:
Are the sparkplug wires tight on the plugs, maybe a bad set of wires even though they are new?
I have swapped to an entirely new set of Accel 8mm wires, and have made sure all wire ends are secure on the plugs...
Quote:
I wonder if he fixed any of the other issues he had from the other threads. I'll bet one particular big one is still left unresolved.
The compression test? I haven't had time to do that.. by the time I get home from work, it's 8pm at the earliest.. that's gonna have to wait until the weekend for me to do..
Quote:
This may sound dumb, but also do you have a different MSD box, I have had a few MSD boxes turn my hair grey from similar BS issues.
Doesn't sound dumb.. it's not the first time someone's mentioned it.. I don't have a spare MSD box, and since I don't have all the other Mopar electronic ignition stuff (ballast resistor, control box, wiring), I can't just disconnect the MSD box to see if it'll work without it
Quote:
Do you have another Carb and Distributor laying around?
I don't..
Quote:
I have 3 or 4 spare electronic distributors to try.....
I may take you up on your offer for assistance, now that I'm back to troubleshooting all the stuff on the 'outside' of the engine... you wouldn't happen to have a spare carb, too for testing purposes - would ya?
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237654
05/23/12 03:31 PM
05/23/12 03:31 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
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Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
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Quote:
Quote:
I have 3 or 4 spare electronic distributors to try.....
I may take you up on your offer for assistance, now that I'm back to troubleshooting all the stuff on the 'outside' of the engine... you wouldn't happen to have a spare carb, too for testing purposes - would ya?
Spare carburetors? Uhhh, no. I DO have a Holley 600 on my bro-in-laws 360, a Holley 750 on my own 67 Dart with a 360 and an 850 on the Charger. I'd be willing to pull them to test on your car if you need. ALL are square bore carbs like the standard Edelbrock pattern.
Just a thought... MY 360 in the 67 Dart is a reringed, stock piston '79 360 with '308 heads and a 280/474 cam. It idles pretty smoothe and makes great power. Very little lope. Stock points ignition. That may be an apples to oranges comparison though.
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237655
05/23/12 03:36 PM
05/23/12 03:36 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
Striving for excellence
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Striving for excellence
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Oh yeah... I also have a ThermoQuad on a 440 in my '74 truck if you need a spread bore carb. I had an AVS rebuilt at the Carburetor Factory on Antelope. They went through it TWICE and it still ran terrible. It wouldn't idle below 1200, it was choppy and it stalled often when put into gear. I pulled that T-quad from a '80 318 in a van at pick-n-pull and the truck runs great! Want to buy an AVS cheap? 
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Re: help me ID the inside of this distributor...
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1237656
05/23/12 03:44 PM
05/23/12 03:44 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I have 3 or 4 spare electronic distributors to try.....
I may take you up on your offer for assistance, now that I'm back to troubleshooting all the stuff on the 'outside' of the engine... you wouldn't happen to have a spare carb, too for testing purposes - would ya?
Spare carburetors? Uhhh, no. I DO have a Holley 600 on my bro-in-laws 360, a Holley 750 on my own 67 Dart with a 360 and an 850 on the Charger. I'd be willing to pull them to test on your car if you need. ALL are square bore carbs like the standard Edelbrock pattern.
Just a thought... MY 360 in the 67 Dart is a reringed, stock piston '79 360 with '308 heads and a 280/474 cam. It idles pretty smoothe and makes great power. Very little lope. Stock points ignition. That may be an apples to oranges comparison though.
I would think the 750 may be too much carburetor for my engine - but obviously, I'm no expert  The heads on yours might work better than the stock heads on mine for that much fuel.. I dunno ???
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1237657
05/23/12 03:51 PM
05/23/12 03:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
it still ran terrible. It wouldn't idle below 1200, it was choppy and it stalled often when put into gear.
Want to buy an AVS cheap?
You need to work on your sales pitches!! This sounds very similar to the problem I'm already having.. I don't need to add to it!
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: Moparnut426]
#1237659
05/23/12 04:59 PM
05/23/12 04:59 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
Ill tell ya what Cal, Ive been wanting to stick a stroked gen 3 HEMI in my demon for a while. Ill sell ya a nice HARD runnin 408 for your car, and Ill stick a HEMI in my Demon.... Carb to pan,
DEAL???? 
How much?
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237665
05/24/12 01:58 AM
05/24/12 01:58 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
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Irving, TX
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I'm wondering if you have something going on with the carb.
You're running an AFB style carb if I remember correctly. What kind of fuel pump do you have feeding it? I doubt that fuel pressure is the culprit here but those things want less than 6 psi. 5 psi of fuel pressure is usually the best place to be.
Did you have to turn the idle screw in very far to keep the car running? If so it will uncover too much of the transfer slot in the primaries.
Take a look in the front of the primary bores. With the throttle closed you should see a small vertical slot in each bore. They're way down at the bottom by the throttle plates. The boosters poking out into the bores will make it hard to look down that far.
The throttle blades should be completely below those slots. Some engine combinations want a little of the transfer slot open. Very little. Less than .060" of an inch.
I posted a pic of a carb upside down with the throttle open so you can see what I'm talking about.
The one round hole in each bore is where your idle mixture screw pokes through.
You can easily see the transfer slots running vertically in the bores.
There is a little horizontal slot in one bore but not the other. That's the full time vacuum port on the front of the carb.
The other bore has a horizontal slot even with the middle of the transfer slot. That's the "ported" vacuum slot on the front of the carb. If your throttle blades are open that far at idle you will definitely have a problem.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: feets]
#1237666
05/24/12 02:16 AM
05/24/12 02:16 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
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Irving, TX
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In this pic you can see the throttle is closed. Quite a bit of the transfer slot is under the throttle blade (remember the carb is upside down here). I don't remember what I last had that carb on but that's a lot of throttle opening at idle.
Once you expose that much transfer slot to the intake vacuum you're going to have tuning difficulties.
Engine vacuum will pull lots of fuel through the slot and the adjustment screws on the front of the carb won't be able to control the idle.
Should you be right on the edge of too much slot exposed the idle can surge a bit. A good slug of vacuum will pull a bunch of fuel through the slot. If it gets too big of a gulp of fuel the engine rpm will drop. That means vacuum drops. It stops drawing that extra fuel. As the idle stabilizes the vacuum increases and starts the process over again.
It can yo-yo from there.
If you can't seen down the carb very well then fire the engine up and open the vacuum ports on the front of the carb.
The full time port will change your idle noticeably when opened.
The ported vacuum port should not impact idle much at all. If it does your throttle is open too far.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: feets]
#1237667
05/24/12 03:23 AM
05/24/12 03:23 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Feets- that's some great info, thanks. I'm using an Edelbrock Performer 1405 (600cfm) I feel like I may have made some progress tonight.. First off - I stopped by the auto parts store to picked up a new cap/rotor.. while I was there, ran into a nice guy with a sweet 440-powered Fury.. this thing was cool.  Anyways.... he and I chatted too long, and the parts store closed.. so I went across the street to Autozone and got my cap/rotor... Came home, swapped it out, no noticeable improvement. Next step: put markings on the harmonic balancer so I could avoid using the dial-back light .. I'm hearing that they don't always work well with MSD boxes. Adjusted idle timing to about 16 degrees advance, checking with both my dial-back light as well as a regular (non-dial) timing light to ensure they both read the same. I kept backing out the a/f screws until my vacuum started to increase, and it seemed to make an impact to how it ran. I had to back them out to about 2.5 turns out, but it seemed to start making a difference. I was able to get the idle speed screw backed off a bit. I am running a Holley blue fuel pump along with a Holley pressure regulator and a fuel pressure gauge .. no return line. At idle, the pressure does build up a bit .. it 'creeps'.. so I know I have to give it a few blasts of throttle to bring the pressure back down. Anyways, during the process tonight, I gave it some good blasts of throttle, and held it at a higher RPM range for a little bit... Next thing I know, it's holding an idle better than I've seen so far... Am I finally making progress? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UULdvZc8v...mp;feature=plcpKeep in mind - exhaust is total overkill - headers to 3" exhaust and turndowns.. .so exhaust is pretty loud.. I'll be getting a proper exhaust system installed when it's done.
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237670
05/24/12 04:59 AM
05/24/12 04:59 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 18,493
Granite Bay CA
Kern Dog
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It looks like you are doing well. The engine has a decent lope and idles well. The exhaust tone from the rear sound like a cammy engine with mild compression. More squeeze would change the somewhat muted exhaust note to a crisper one. No offense meant on that though. I like it. Your idle vacuum numbers look better than I expected. I thought that I once saw 18" at one point? If so, thats great! I have between 7-9" in the Charger, and I have power brakes! I still need to add in that vacuum tank to supplement the booster. The color on that car is TANGY ! Wow... that car is going to be great! It reminds me of abodyjoe's car. Glad to see you're making progress, Greg
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1237671
05/24/12 06:35 AM
05/24/12 06:35 AM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
340SHORTY
Truck Nut
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Truck Nut
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
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I have the MSD 6 on my 340 with a factory elec dist and I cannot check the timing with a dialback light. It has to be a regular light.
I still say you have a carb or vacumn problem.. Try another carb that is being offered. Anything for a test is basicly fine..
I am truckless..
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1237672
05/24/12 12:19 PM
05/24/12 12:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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OK .. I am excited that things may be getting better... I know I've read that if the Edelbrock Performer is getting too much gas, that the gas will be visible coming out the 'boosters'.. I am not aware of where the 'boosters' are, but after reading Feets response above, I'm wondering if the boosters are these air horn s sticking out into the venturi... If they are, there was a fair amount of gas coming out of them at idle... I just thought that was normal. You can kind of see it in the video I did of it running last night.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-ucCl8KX...mp;feature=plcp
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1237673
05/24/12 12:26 PM
05/24/12 12:26 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
It looks like you are doing well. The engine has a decent lope and idles well. The exhaust tone from the rear sound like a cammy engine with mild compression. More squeeze would change the somewhat muted exhaust note to a crisper one. No offense meant on that though. I like it.
No offense taken, at all. I would LOVE to have higher compression, but I just don't have the ability (money) to do the things necessary to increase compression to where I'd like to have it (probably close to 10:1 would be great....) Quote:
Your idle vacuum numbers look better than I expected. I thought that I once saw 18" at one point?
I think it was settling around 10-12" when I was getting things closer to where I think it should be - hoping that will be good enough for my power brakes Quote:
If so, thats great! I have between 7-9" in the Charger, and I have power brakes! I still need to add in that vacuum tank to supplement the booster.
The color on that car is TANGY ! Wow... that car is going to be great! It reminds me of abodyjoe's car. Glad to see you're making progress, Greg
Thanks man - I appreciate the encouragement, and all the help, tips and suggestions from everyone so far.. there's no way I would have been able to do this without all the help.
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: feets]
#1237676
05/24/12 01:21 PM
05/24/12 01:21 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 406
California City, CA
dart440
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 406
California City, CA
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There shouldn't be a any fuel coming out of the boosters at idle. Air flowing through the venturi should be the only thing that draws fuel out from the boosters.
That is a sign of too high a float level, dirt in the needle/seat hanging them open, defective needle/seat or excessive fuel pressure forcing fuel past the needle/seat.
Looks like you may have found your problem...or at least one of them!!!
When you work on Spaceships for a living, how bad can a workday be?
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: feets]
#1237677
05/24/12 01:24 PM
05/24/12 01:24 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
Quote:
I'm wondering if the boosters are these air horn s sticking out into the venturi...
Those are the boosters.
Quote:
If they are, there was a fair amount of gas coming out of them at idle... I just thought that was normal. You can kind of see it in the video I did of it running last night..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-ucCl8KX...mp;feature=plcp
I don't recall how much fuel comes out of my boosters when it's at idle.
If it's tuned properly there shouldn't be much fuel coming through there.
If your fuel pressure is too high it will push fuel past the floats and flood the carb through the boosters.
You need to make sure the pressure is below 6 psi and stays there.
Just pulled the top of the carb off, and checked floats... float drop was right around 15/16" to 1" at the end of the float, and float height was nearly dead-on at 7/16".
I'm thinking that the pressure regulator I have is not working properly.. I have dialed it way down, so when it's running at 2000rpm or so, it's set to about 3.5psi, but when it idles for about 30 seconds or so, it's going up to 6 or 7. It's a Holley blue fuel pump with a Holley pressure regulator and Autometer pressure gauge. Is there a way to stop that pressure creep?
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: dart440]
#1237679
05/24/12 01:33 PM
05/24/12 01:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
There shouldn't be a any fuel coming out of the boosters at idle. Air flowing through the venturi should be the only thing that draws fuel out from the boosters.
That is a sign of too high a float level, dirt in the needle/seat hanging them open, defective needle/seat or excessive fuel pressure forcing fuel past the needle/seat.
Looks like you may have found your problem...or at least one of them!!!
If I want to check the needle/seat - do I need to take the carb off, or can I do that while it's on the car?
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237680
05/24/12 01:38 PM
05/24/12 01:38 PM
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 406
California City, CA
dart440
mopar
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mopar
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 406
California City, CA
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Check the needle for a groove (wear) and also blow through them with some carb cleaner to be sure there is nothing hanging them open (dirt, teflon tape, etc). I try blowing air through the fuel inlet (by mouth, not air compressor) while moving the float to see it the needles seat properly. If they shut off the flow of air in the seated position they are okay.
If the needle/seat is good and the float level checks also, replace the pressure regulator as it is not working properly.
One other thing, check to see if the floats have fuel in them (if brass) or if they weigh too much if the black plastic (the black plastic floats will sometimes absorb fuel like a sponge) and they will sink, causing the fuel level to be too high also.
When you work on Spaceships for a living, how bad can a workday be?
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: dart440]
#1237682
05/24/12 01:52 PM
05/24/12 01:52 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
Check the needle for a groove (wear) and also blow through them with some carb cleaner to be sure there is nothing hanging them open (dirt, teflon tape, etc). I try blowing air through the fuel inlet (by mouth, not air compressor) while moving the float to see it the needles seat properly. If they shut off the flow of air in the seated position they are okay.
If the needle/seat is good and the float level checks also, replace the pressure regulator as it is not working properly.
One other thing, check to see if the floats have fuel in them (if brass) or if they weigh too much if the black plastic (the black plastic floats will sometimes absorb fuel like a sponge) and they will sink, causing the fuel level to be too high also.
I tried blowing in through the fuel inlet,.. while floats were in 'down' position, air went in easily.. when I moved floats to the 'up' position, I was unable to blow any air in.. floats are brass, do not seem to have any fuel in them
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237683
05/24/12 02:04 PM
05/24/12 02:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
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You've been blowing a lot of fuel through those primaries. Perhaps blowing it up too. You can tell by the color. Your fuel pressure is probably the cause of this whole mess. Aren't you glad you did all that other stuff?
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237684
05/24/12 02:16 PM
05/24/12 02:16 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406
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I wrote this back on May 8-9 Quote:
The regulator you have is a POS if the pressure is creeping. If you set it at one pressure and it goes above that pressure, it's really not doing anything worthwhile!
There were about 4+ other post reiterating this issue in the same thread and you moved on to other things. I know I told you to look into the carb early on to see if it was dripping, NOW you decide to do it. Could have saved yourself a lot of grief. Take the carb top off when you don't address the root issue, pull the front of the engine down, etc.
I know that I suggested you FIX the fuel pressure so this entire exercise may have been because you chose to ignore doing SIMPLE things to address known issues.
How many sites were you on asking for help? 3, 4, 5?
I appreciate the fact that this is not your strength, however, you MUST solve known issues first, one at a time to get anywhere with these things. If you work on this stuff like the keystone cops or Chinese fire drill, you will be exactly how you are, FRUSTRATED! People trying to help you also get frustrated because you ignore solid suggestions on what to fix. I hope you get it solved and put a fricken fuel pressure regulator on the car that does what it's supposed to do!
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: feets]
#1237685
05/24/12 02:19 PM
05/24/12 02:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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Quote:
You've been blowing a lot of fuel through those primaries. Perhaps blowing it up too. You can tell by the color.
Your fuel pressure is probably the cause of this whole mess.
Aren't you glad you did all that other stuff?
If this whole mess is a result of me saving a few bucks by buying a used Holley fuel pump, I will be SO freaking PO'd!!
Granted, I'm not crazy about the fuel pump - it's so damn loud, I can hear it over my headers and 3" exhaust
So - do I go buy a brand new Holley pump, or do I buy the fuel pump repair kit ?
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: superbeedave]
#1237689
05/24/12 02:35 PM
05/24/12 02:35 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
Challenger 1
Too Many Posts
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Posts: 28,312
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Quote:
So you have a 750 Edelbrock Huh? Mmm!!  Try another carb and then try a different fuel pump. But not at the same time.
He has a 1405 which is a 600 cfm manuel choke carburator.
My 1405 is feed by a mechanical fuel pump with no regulator.
There's no way I would use the blue pump on the street because it vapor locks and is way too noisey for me. I learned the hard way also 20+ years ago with one of those blue pumps on my street car, they suck imo.
I don't think you need a new fuel pump, just have to regulate the one you have now. I was never able to control my pressure with a holley regulator when I ran a blue pump because I think I was not using a retun line at the time. I have never got my holley regulator to work right without a return line.
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: autoxcuda]
#1237690
05/24/12 02:39 PM
05/24/12 02:39 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406
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Quote:
For such a stock rebuild, why does it have an electric fuel pump?
The keep it simple rule applies. Doesn't need an MSD either. For a first time rebuild, get it running with stock stuff then add the trick stuff one by one.
Nothing wrong with any of that stuff, provided you get it set up correctly. I've had stock fuel pumps blow ede carbs up with too much fuel pressure so that's not a guarantee it will work OOTB.
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: RobX4406]
#1237691
05/24/12 02:59 PM
05/24/12 02:59 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
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RobX4406 - I wasn't trying to ignore or discount anyone's recommendations for troubleshooting.. I was getting a ton of different things to look into from different people.. as far as the fuel pressure issue, I thought i had it taken care of by dialing the regulator back almost all the way.. and I didn't realize until last night that the 'boosters' that I was supposed to be looking out for fuel overflow from, were the ones in the front of the carb.. I was looking at the ones in the rear opening of the carb, and didn't realize that the ones in the front should NOT have gas coming out at idle..
When I called Holley today about the pressure creep, they told me that the regulators really don't have anything in them that could cause it to not work properly, but his thought was that my pump may be putting out way too much pressure - more than the reg can handle.
To the questions about why I went with an electric pump -
I did have a mechanical pump, but it was not moving any fuel... NONE... and it barely had any miles on it - I put it in about 6 yrs ago, and it barely had any use. So the guy who was working on some mechanical issues on the car (and the body work) was telling me that he never uses mech. pumps, and suggested going with the electric setup for reliability, since we couldn't get the mech. one to work.
I am also not a fan of the loud noise of the electric pump.. but at least it's getting gas from the tank to the carb, which my mechanical was unable to do.
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237692
05/24/12 03:30 PM
05/24/12 03:30 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,890
Oregon
hooziewhatsit
master
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master
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Oregon
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When I went to fire up my engine after rebuilding the top end I used the old pump and was getting no fuel to the carb either. I pulled it off and put a vacuum gauge on it, and moved the lever manually. It would pull a vacuum, then lose it immediately. The new pump pulled vacuum and held it in between pumps. Would also be pretty easy to check in the car also. May be worth trying a mechanical one again. Now I need to go see if my boosters are dripping  (wow, that sounds bad )
If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237694
05/24/12 03:34 PM
05/24/12 03:34 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
RobX4406
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 12,271
Overpriced Housing Central
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Quote:
RobX4406 - I wasn't trying to ignore or discount anyone's recommendations for troubleshooting.. I was getting a ton of different things to look into from different people.. as far as the fuel pressure issue, I thought i had it taken care of by dialing the regulator back almost all the way.. and I didn't realize until last night that the 'boosters' that I was supposed to be looking out for fuel overflow from, were the ones in the front of the carb.. I was looking at the ones in the rear opening of the carb, and didn't realize that the ones in the front should NOT have gas coming out at idle..
When I called Holley today about the pressure creep, they told me that the regulators really don't have anything in them that could cause it to not work properly, but his thought was that my pump may be putting out way too much pressure - more than the reg can handle.
Mark, you stated in one of the responses that it was set at 5 but was still moving up to 7ish. So it wasn't fixed and that was the issue I was talking about on wed that was unresolved. Put a regulator on it that actually works and see how it runs AND STOP DOING anything else to fix things.
BS on the creep reason from the holley tech, it's a known issue with those POS regulators. Some are good, others, brand new OOTB are junk.
One fix at a time and do the easy free stuff first! I don't care how many different suggestions you got. If you half a$$ed things you won't get anything resolved.
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: cogen80]
#1237696
05/24/12 05:56 PM
05/24/12 05:56 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
340SHORTY
Truck Nut
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Truck Nut
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,291
Kent, Wa
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Put a return line on the fuel system. That will help in the pump vapor locking and will also eliminate the pressure creep. but then again a stock pump will work fine if the eccentric is on the cam..
I am truckless..
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: cogen80]
#1237697
05/24/12 05:56 PM
05/24/12 05:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
feets
Senior Management
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Senior Management
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 28,067
Irving, TX
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Mark,
Stop everything.
Replace the regulator. Until you control the fuel pressure there is nothing else you can do.
Report back once the fuel pressure issue is resolved and let us know how the engine behaves.
We are brothers and sisters doing time on the planet for better or worse. I'll take the better, if you don't mind.
- Stu Harmon
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: feets]
#1237698
05/25/12 11:22 AM
05/25/12 11:22 AM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,008
Finally a HUSKER again
Moparnut426
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 12,008
Finally a HUSKER again
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I agree, Get that fuel PSI to normal readings, If that corrects the engine running issue, Id toss that blue POS pump over your right shoulder, and get yourself a nice mechanical fuel pump, and run that through the regulator. Just my ... 
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: 1_WILD_RT]
#1237701
05/26/12 01:43 PM
05/26/12 01:43 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
cal_gecko
OP
I Live Here
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OP
I Live Here
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 12,589
Sacramento, CA
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Sorry guys... yeah, I managed to find someone local who had a spare Edelbrock Performer 600cfm carb (identical to the one I have), and he was willing to let me borrow it for testing purposes. Night and DAY difference. Idles beautifully now.
Pressure is still higher than I'd like at idle.. it's getting up to 6psi according to the gauge .. .even when the pressure is dialed all the way down on the regulator. I'll go buy another new regulator today (irritating, because the one I'm using is brand new, and I don't have the receipt for it any more... so that's a waste of $30) and see if that makes a difference to the pressure creep. Also, seriously considering getting rid of the electric pump and going to a mechanical pump.. I hate the sound of the electric pump.. so loud it's stupid.
Anyways.. I'm buying the carb from the guy who let me borrow it... and I may tear into mine at some point to see if I can see what the problem was, but that's not a priority for me right now. I'm just really freakin happy that it's running well now.
Next up - figure out where it's leaking oil from... back of the oil pan/block is leaking.. but it's hard to tell if it's leaking from above that seal or at that seal...
So thankful to all the suggestions, advice and patience from folks who were trying to help me!!!
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Re: Continuing with the troubleshooting... distributor...
[Re: cal_gecko]
#1237702
05/26/12 06:27 PM
05/26/12 06:27 PM
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 508
Cincinnati, Ohio
superbeedave
mopar
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mopar
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 508
Cincinnati, Ohio
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Congradulations on your success! Remember that the Edelbrock carbs. do not like fuel pressure over I believe it is approx. 6.5. That is what their catalogs say! Oops sorry! I didn't realize you posted that in a different thread.
Last edited by superbeedave; 05/26/12 06:29 PM.
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