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WideBand 02 Results #1225590
05/01/12 08:07 PM
05/01/12 08:07 PM
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Posts: 3,831
N.E. Ohio
6bblFLASH Offline OP
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N.E. Ohio
Finally got the Innovate Wideband 02 in AND working properly.
Took it out for its 1st drive.
Idle 13.5--14.5
Cruise 11.7--12.2 rich
Power 13.5 steady too lean.

So now the chase begins.
Max power is pretty easy to fix,cruise may be more of a challenge.

7188253-DSC00009.JPG (145 downloads)

70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas
9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ!
2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: 6bblFLASH] #1225591
05/01/12 08:39 PM
05/01/12 08:39 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 4,489
northern,Ohio,USA
C
Clanton Offline
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northern,Ohio,USA
it is still progress knowing the results!what is the carb list# and any mods to it?


GOTBOOST!New improved with Victor heads.
http://www.enginelabs.com/mopar-big-bloc...t-of-necessity/
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: 6bblFLASH] #1225592
05/01/12 09:01 PM
05/01/12 09:01 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
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Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
I dont even waste my time using it for idle... get
it so it idles nice then take a reading... like you
said cruise is always the harder part

Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: MR_P_BODY] #1225593
05/01/12 10:12 PM
05/01/12 10:12 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 452
new york usa
P
pattyboy 572 Offline
mopar
pattyboy 572  Offline
mopar
P

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Posts: 452
new york usa
Is there anything else out there worth purchasing , other than the innovate lm-2 ????? thanks ,pat

Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: pattyboy 572] #1225594
05/01/12 10:34 PM
05/01/12 10:34 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 12,587
Great Neck,LI,new york
hemi-itis Offline
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Posts: 12,587
Great Neck,LI,new york
Quote:

Is there anything else out there worth purchasing , other than the innovate lm-2 ????? thanks ,pat




Pat,do you have a RoadRunner?


HEMI-ITIS has no cure.
My condition is fully BLOWN!!
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: 6bblFLASH] #1225595
05/01/12 10:41 PM
05/01/12 10:41 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
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Thumperdart Offline
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I don`t focus too much on idle either as long as it`s crisp and clean and doesn`t load up I`m cool w/that...........cruise however is a bear w/my 1050 which varies a bit bet. 11.8-12.5 accordingly and wot is around 12.5-12.8.................


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: Thumperdart] #1225596
05/01/12 11:11 PM
05/01/12 11:11 PM
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY Offline
Master
MR_P_BODY  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
Even at WOT I still run for best MPH then take a
reading so its easier to get back to that if I change
something... cruise is always the hard point... is
it on the level... up a minor grade... it all plays in

Last edited by MR_P_BODY; 05/01/12 11:13 PM.
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: 6bblFLASH] #1225597
05/01/12 11:23 PM
05/01/12 11:23 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,021
Andrews,In. U.S.of A.
6
67_Satellite Offline
super stock
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super stock
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,021
Andrews,In. U.S.of A.
Bear in mind that if you have a "perfect" 14.7:1 a.f.r. at cruise, you'll probably have a few lean and rich cylinders somewhere. I got to the high 13's at cruise and called it good enough. I have my o2 sensor mounted 12" from the turbine outlet, so I know all the exhaust is thoroughly mixed by then.

Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: hemi-itis] #1225598
05/01/12 11:41 PM
05/01/12 11:41 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 452
new york usa
P
pattyboy 572 Offline
mopar
pattyboy 572  Offline
mopar
P

Joined: May 2008
Posts: 452
new york usa
yes al its me........

Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: 6bblFLASH] #1225599
05/02/12 08:21 AM
05/02/12 08:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
Mr.Yuck Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet
Mr.Yuck  Offline
Not enough dumb comments...yet

Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 24,562
Brookeville, Md
drop the primary jetting one and add one to the 2ndary. I ran 74/86's in my S/C'd 440. Pretty much the same engine you have. Very mild 440 w/ 6psi of boost. No idea of my readings all I had was the cheapo A/F gague w/ the red yellow yellow green yellow yellow red lights. stayed in the green to 1st yellow al the time.


[IMG]http://i66.tinypic.com/pui5j.jpg[/IMG]
Coming soon!!!!
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: Mr.Yuck] #1225600
05/02/12 08:41 AM
05/02/12 08:41 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,924
A shed in England
Tig Offline
master
Tig  Offline
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Posts: 2,924
A shed in England
Sorry to Hijack but here's a lttle tip.
DO NOT leave the plastics protective covers on the end of your O2 sensors, while you turn the power on checking out your new ignition system. The sensor heaters will melt them and damage the sensors.
Dont ask me how I know


'74 Challenger..9.46 @ 145.9 1/4, 6.001 @ 118 1/8 so far. 4023lb !!! # N/A, Marsh performance 655ci, Indy Maxx, T/R, Indy 600-13 X's, Street legal, pump gas, full interior, Cal-Tracs, mufflers, 3:73's and real 10.5 radials.
9.51 @ 142.4 1/4, 6.003 @ 114 1/8 with our old mule KB, 572-13, 580 wedge.
RHD '68 Barracuda Fastback 323ci street/strip. Best ET 13.88 @ 99.03
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: Tig] #1225601
05/02/12 08:58 AM
05/02/12 08:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,573
...gently down the stream
LAR_414 Offline
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Posts: 4,573
...gently down the stream
You have to approach it in the following order:
-Idle
-Transition
-Cruise
-Moderate powering up
-WOT

Each circuit plays into WOT (even if it's small). You do that one LAST!

7188960-crossramsml.jpg (133 downloads)
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: 67_Satellite] #1225602
05/02/12 10:19 AM
05/02/12 10:19 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,434
Dandridge TN
D
Dabee Offline
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Dandridge TN
Quote:

Bear in mind that if you have a "perfect" 14.7:1 a.f.r. at cruise, you'll probably have a few lean and rich cylinders somewhere. I got to the high 13's at cruise and called it good enough. I have my o2 sensor mounted 12" from the turbine outlet, so I know all the exhaust is thoroughly mixed by then.




If you are running 10% ethanol pump gas your ideal AFR is 14.1 to 1.

Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: Dabee] #1225603
05/02/12 11:21 AM
05/02/12 11:21 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 8,027
Tulsa OK
Bad340fish Offline
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Tulsa OK
Quote:

Quote:

Bear in mind that if you have a "perfect" 14.7:1 a.f.r. at cruise, you'll probably have a few lean and rich cylinders somewhere. I got to the high 13's at cruise and called it good enough. I have my o2 sensor mounted 12" from the turbine outlet, so I know all the exhaust is thoroughly mixed by then.




If you are running 10% ethanol pump gas your ideal AFR is 14.1 to 1.




Thanks for posting that chart. I recently decided to just suck it up and start putting the 10% ethanol in my car. The 100% gas is hard to find and around here they are asking as much at .25-.40 more per gallon for it. I have some jetting to do.


68 Barracuda Formula S 340
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: Dabee] #1225604
05/02/12 02:37 PM
05/02/12 02:37 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
@
@#$%&*! Offline
New user name, Same old jerk!
@#$%&*!  Offline
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Posts: 1,131
Thigh-Gap Junction
Quote:



If you are running 10% ethanol pump gas your ideal AFR is 14.1 to 1.




While that may be technically true you can only use that info IF your wideband system is SET with a 14.1:1 stoich value. If your system is set to display gasoline stoich of 14.7:1 you can still use 14.7 as a stoich value when reading the numbers displayed regardless what fuel you're using.
Wideband systems measure oxygen presence and produce a variable numerical output value represented by the Greek letter Lambda. The value for Lambda at stoichiometry is 1.00. If the wideband system user sets the device to display s stoichiometry value of 14.7 (or any other number) the device simply multiplies Lambda by 14.7 (or whatever number is used). This does not change anything about how the device makes the measurement and the device does not care what fuel is being used.
Whoever created that chart was well-meaning and technically correct but has created a communication nightmare where now people can't disuss AFRs without stating what stoich value the reading was taken with (and requiring math to convert to ones familiar scale). It would be much better if everyone just used Lambda (1.00) or 14.7, regardless what fuel is being used. The wideband system doesn't know or care.

Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: 6bblFLASH] #1225605
05/02/12 04:00 PM
05/02/12 04:00 PM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,200
Bend,OR USA
C
Cab_Burge Offline
I Win
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C

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,200
Bend,OR USA
Quote:

Finally got the Innovate Wideband 02 in AND working properly.
Took it out for its 1st drive.
Idle 13.5--14.5
Cruise 11.7--12.2 rich
Power 13.5 steady too lean.

So now the chase begins.
Max power is pretty easy to fix,cruise may be more of a challenge.


I'm going to assume when you say power you mean at W.O.T., if not what do you mean? Your idle AFR are good, I do run my pump gas motor leaner than that, 14.8 to 16.0 depending on outside air temps as far as cruise I like an duse real close to 13.8 to 15.0, WOT I shoot for 12.8 to 13.3, not the best for a boosted motor so I would shoot for 12.2 to maybe as lean as 12.8, depending on what the spark plugs look like( all eight plugs) It is way safer to start out rich and then slowly lean it down to where you like it The transition circuits are real fun to tune


Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: Cab_Burge] #1225606
05/02/12 06:27 PM
05/02/12 06:27 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 319
jonestown,pa
D
dmking Offline
enthusiast
dmking  Offline
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jonestown,pa
pat this another option. small simple and has a display built in live.

Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: dmking] #1225607
05/02/12 06:30 PM
05/02/12 06:30 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 319
jonestown,pa
D
dmking Offline
enthusiast
dmking  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2011
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jonestown,pa
.

7189670-cecil1020run.JPG (130 downloads)
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: @#$%&*!] #1225608
05/02/12 10:28 PM
05/02/12 10:28 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 16,928
NC
440Jim Offline
I Live Here
440Jim  Offline
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Posts: 16,928
NC
Quote:

The wideband <oxygen> system doesn't know or care.




That is the beauty of the wide band oxygen sensor system.
I have used my wide band oxygen sensor with race gasoline, alky (methanol) and E-85 ethanol. It measures Lambda, I typically display A/F based on 14.7 (gasoline) since those numbers are in my head. I don't bother converting to actual A/F for the various fuels; as long as you know what numbers to look for, it don't matter. And the absolute number isn't all that important anyway, just a range.


1993 Daytona, 5.50 at 130mph (1/8) 1.19 sixty ft (PG). Link to 572 B1 - Part 1
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: @#$%&*!] #1225609
05/02/12 11:26 PM
05/02/12 11:26 PM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,434
Dandridge TN
D
Dabee Offline
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Dandridge TN
Quote:

Quote:



If you are running 10% ethanol pump gas your ideal AFR is 14.1 to 1.




While that may be technically true you can only use that info IF your wideband system is SET with a 14.1:1 stoich value. If your system is set to display gasoline stoich of 14.7:1 you can still use 14.7 as a stoich value when reading the numbers displayed regardless what fuel you're using.
Wideband systems measure oxygen presence and produce a variable numerical output value represented by the Greek letter Lambda. The value for Lambda at stoichiometry is 1.00. If the wideband system user sets the device to display s stoichiometry value of 14.7 (or any other number) the device simply multiplies Lambda by 14.7 (or whatever number is used). This does not change anything about how the device makes the measurement and the device does not care what fuel is being used.
Whoever created that chart was well-meaning and technically correct but has created a communication nightmare where now people can't disuss AFRs without stating what stoich value the reading was taken with (and requiring math to convert to ones familiar scale). It would be much better if everyone just used Lambda (1.00) or 14.7, regardless what fuel is being used. The wideband system doesn't know or care.





Agree, that is why I have my wideband set to display the Lambda number.

Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: Dabee] #1225610
05/03/12 02:52 PM
05/03/12 02:52 PM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 863
Pinelands , NJ
J
joelson6 Offline
super stock
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Posts: 863
Pinelands , NJ
i'm very interested in this topic. i want to put o2 sensors on my Challenger but funds are limiting what i can install. don't want to hijack here so i'm not gonna start asking all kinds of questions. but i am very interested in reading about what you did with you tuning. keep us posted.

Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: joelson6] #1225611
05/03/12 05:31 PM
05/03/12 05:31 PM
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 319
jonestown,pa
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dmking Offline
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jonestown,pa
the above chart was from my first time with the wideband in the car instead of my big ninja.
in one pass it showed me that the accelerator pump needed a bit more fuel and the hood scoop was making my car go rich above 100mph.

like everyone says jet for best preformance at the track and just shoot for that number.

Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: dmking] #1225612
07/26/12 07:52 PM
07/26/12 07:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,831
N.E. Ohio
6bblFLASH Offline OP
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N.E. Ohio
Well I`ve finally made enough headway to leave it alone for a while.
Ended up with IFR`s @ .033
AFR`s @ .076
13.5 idle
13.5 cruise


70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas
9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ!
2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: 6bblFLASH] #1225613
07/26/12 10:54 PM
07/26/12 10:54 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 5,443
Indiana
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YO7_A66 Offline
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Indiana
You started with your cruise A/F at 11.7--12.2 and now you are at 13.5. Nice job!!


1970 YO7 A66 [Canadian Export] F8 Challenger
340 (Currently in shop for stroker assy.)
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: YO7_A66] #1225614
07/27/12 05:34 PM
07/27/12 05:34 PM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,831
N.E. Ohio
6bblFLASH Offline OP
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Thanks,once I understood the pattern of the changes it started getting easier.

Going to check fuel mileage soon. Got 10.5mpg originally.


70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas
9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ!
2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: 6bblFLASH] #1225615
07/27/12 07:07 PM
07/27/12 07:07 PM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
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Thumperdart Offline
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State of confusion
Quote:

Thanks,once I understood the pattern of the changes it started getting easier.

Going to check fuel mileage soon. Got 10.5mpg originally.


So what exactly did you tweek in the carb to dial in the cruise?


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: Thumperdart] #1225616
07/28/12 01:05 AM
07/28/12 01:05 AM
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,831
N.E. Ohio
6bblFLASH Offline OP
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N.E. Ohio
Quote:

Quote:

Thanks,once I understood the pattern of the changes it started getting easier.

Going to check fuel mileage soon. Got 10.5mpg originally.


So what exactly did you tweek in the carb to dial in the cruise?





As delivered it had .070 AFR`s and .040? IFR`s
Tried lots of combos and basically realized that if the idle circuit is maxed-out at idle,it can`t get much richer at cruise. Tried small changes to both IFR`s and AFR`s till it almost isn`t enough fuel to idle cold.Also lowered the primary float to just below the hole. That go me the 13.5 cruise.
I expect mileage to be 13mpg or so. Got 10.5 @11.7/12.2 AFR,,,,,11.98 @ 12.5/7 AFR. Hope 13.5 yeilds a 13+.


70` Cuda`,440 6BBL Jerico,Dana 4.56 Still on 93 Pump Gas
9.87 @ 136/1.31-60ft.`09 Mopar Nationals PASSON PERFORMANCE "Stick-Shift" Champ!
2013 StickShift Challenge Winner@ Mopar Nationals!
Re: WideBand 02 Results [Re: 6bblFLASH] #1225617
07/28/12 02:09 AM
07/28/12 02:09 AM
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 19,317
State of confusion
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Thumperdart Offline
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State of confusion
When I went from 71 to 73 idle bleeds, it was definately too lean and was real slow to idle back down so I`ll try tweeking the mixture screws to see if that will stableize it. Good little tuning tool to get us close on our tune-up then fine tune at the track...........


72 Dart 470 n/a BB stroker street car `THUMPER`...Check me out on FB Dominic Thumper for videos and lots of carb pics......760-900-3895.....
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