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Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car?
#1155320
01/12/12 03:33 PM
01/12/12 03:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,310
Walnut Creek, CA
blown340
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,310
Walnut Creek, CA
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Just curious, the combination of R compound rubber and the longer T/A pitman arm in my challenger has really tweaked my power steering gearbox mount to the point where the bolts loosen after a hundred miles or so. Its going to be a long time until I have a chance to pull the motor and K-member to do it on the bench. Anyone done it in the car with the motor in?
Thanks,
-Jon
(And thanks Tom for the forum!)
70 challenger convertible. 340/5 speed. blown, intercooled, efi, blah blah blah
71 valiant scamp 318/A833OD/AC/PS
00 dakota RC 4.7L 5 spd autoX'r. SRT10/T56 swap in process
73 W200 Power wagon, PTO winch, 4 spd
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Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car?
[Re: blown340]
#1155321
01/12/12 03:40 PM
01/12/12 03:40 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,548
Norwich CT USA
moparts
I Live Here
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I Live Here
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 15,548
Norwich CT USA
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Look closely at how the steering box plate is welded in, or I should say not really welded in. On my Challenger with the k member out and clean, took a few minutes with the mig to just completely weld everywhere that the steering plate could be welded. lot stronger and solid after welding 
Tom ,
2011 Ram 3500 C&C Diesel
2009 Challenger R/T
1971 Challenger Conv. 511/4 speed
1970 Challenger R/T 503/727
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Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car?
[Re: moparts]
#1155322
01/12/12 05:47 PM
01/12/12 05:47 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 181
Washington State
70chall440
member
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member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 181
Washington State
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I recently did the K frame in my Cuda, granted the car is still in peieces, however I did a consdierable amount of research on my front suspension. First stop is Firm Feel, look at thier welded K frame. I think they still do them by request, but anyone with a welder can do it. I welded up all of the seams but more to your point, I welded/re-welded up all of the steering box mounts. Most of them were merely tacked in place. The is enough bracing already in there (unless someone before was trying to lighten the car in the wrong place), however they need to be reinforced by welding all of them. The one spot the FF (and subsequently I) added bracing is behind the steering box mount which is hallow. it doesnt take a lot of metal to fill it in to create a very solid mount.
01 Viper GTS ACR
10 Challenger RT PCP 6spd
70 Challenger 440 6 pac
73 Cuda 416 Road Racer
70 Hemi Roadrunner
01 Ram 4x4 / 98 Ram 3500
91 Stealth RT
05 Durango Hemi
09 Caliber / 99 Dakota 4x4 / 52 Dodge B3B
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Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car?
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#1155324
01/12/12 06:55 PM
01/12/12 06:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
racealittle
pro stock
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pro stock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,263
Southwestern Ontario Canada
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Quote:
Yes, a welded k frame will transform your car. It's just that it's a pita to do if the car is assembled. You can suspend everything and remove it...
The steering box mount is most important area as there is a tremendous amount of flex that occurs when you turn the steering wheel.
Do you have more pictures that show where more plate and welding is required? Do you think some lightening holes would weaken the attempt to reinforce the structure.
I never gave any thought to welding up the K frame before. I had always thought that it should be good enough. I guess that I will learn something new here everyday.
Too many cars, too many parts, too little coin, too little space to work in, too little time left to make it all happen!
Update: down to one ride, still too many parts, a little more jingle in the pocket, gaining space, and it's going to happen this year!
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Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car?
[Re: Kern Dog]
#1155326
01/12/12 07:42 PM
01/12/12 07:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
67Charger
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,031
Erda, UT
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Another "welded up the stock stuff" guy here. Last time I had the motor out I pulled the K member and welded that thing up proper. Gusseted the motor mounts and steering box a little, but mostly put in better/more welds than the crappy factory job. I put in a firm feel box and decided to double the amount of weld holding the box mount to the K. I also put in the big Hotchkiss sway bar and didn't like how the mounts were 1/2 suspended in mid-air so I ran a brace from the front of the mount to the top of the K.
11.33 @ 118.46 on motor
10.75 @ 125.35 w/ a little spray
Now, high Speed Open Road Racing - Silver State Classic Challenge, Nevada Open Road Challenge, Big Bend Open Road Race
Rocky Mountain Race Week 2020, 2022 2.0, Sick Week 2023
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Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car?
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#1155328
01/12/12 10:05 PM
01/12/12 10:05 PM
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Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 181
Washington State
70chall440
member
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member
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 181
Washington State
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one piece of advice I would offer is, if possible have your K frame "cooked" to clean it, or at a minimum use a lot of degreaser and high pressure to get the inside clean. If not, you will constantly be blowing out the grease fires that flare up from all of the crud inside of the K frame. One other point that was brought to my attention is, dont try and weld it all at once. Jump aound and weld a couple of inches at a time, especially around the seam. This will ensure you don't tweak the frame due to heat. I didnt do this on purpose but more by accident. While I was at a local Mopar restoration shop, the owner was telling another guy a story about a K Frame he had that someone had started on one side an started pouring heat/weld into the frame. When he tried to bolt it up, the frame was twisted some. He attributed this to the welding technique. I dont think this is a huge issue or something that is easy to screw up, I just think it is better to be safe than pissed off. I would also recommend welding the seams around the frame and then weld/brace up the steering box area; that way nothing should move. Could be wrong here but that seems to be logical to me.
01 Viper GTS ACR
10 Challenger RT PCP 6spd
70 Challenger 440 6 pac
73 Cuda 416 Road Racer
70 Hemi Roadrunner
01 Ram 4x4 / 98 Ram 3500
91 Stealth RT
05 Durango Hemi
09 Caliber / 99 Dakota 4x4 / 52 Dodge B3B
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Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car?
[Re: 70chall440]
#1155329
01/13/12 01:01 AM
01/13/12 01:01 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,466
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,466
So Cal
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Did this in 1997. I've since bent a steel 15x8 rim going off course at Willow. To the core, not just the outer rim. But I've taking the motor out and inspected with a fine toothed comb and no problems. Now my Mopar remanufacture steering box with 80K miles is toast though.  I did get 80K miles from it, but it's unscrewing itself from the input side spanner and regular adjustment nut. Lower bearing moves around after as much adjustment as possible while still in car. I think it's just taken too many "shots to the head."
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Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car?
[Re: astjp2]
#1155331
01/14/12 07:03 AM
01/14/12 07:03 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,466
So Cal
autoxcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 27,466
So Cal
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Quote:
My computer is not opening Tom's attachments, can someone post some good pics of the reinforcements they welded around the steering box mount? Maybe some pics of the control arm attaching points? Thanks Tim
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Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car?
[Re: blown340]
#1155334
01/22/12 12:57 PM
01/22/12 12:57 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
Rick_Ehrenberg
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
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Another approach: Adding Firm Feel's lower sector shaft support bearing kit stops the pitman from being cantilevered out there and reduces K-member flex a whole bunch -- and it is a 10-minute bolt-on! OK, guess who designed it... ;-> Rick E. 
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Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car?
[Re: Rick_Ehrenberg]
#1155335
01/22/12 02:55 PM
01/22/12 02:55 PM
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
jcc
If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
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If you can't dazzle em with diamonds..
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 22,696
Bitopia
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Any installed pics? And the purpose, if I understand it correctly, is to prevent "flexing" of the 1.25"? sector shaft, to lighten the load on the OEM sector bearings, AND to basically supply another mounting point for the PS box? I can't imagine shaft has much relative flex in the scheme of things. 
Last edited by jcc; 01/22/12 02:56 PM.
Reality check, that half the population is smarter then 50% of the people and it's a constantly contested fact.
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Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car?
[Re: ThermoQuad]
#1155338
01/23/12 11:13 PM
01/23/12 11:13 PM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
Rick_Ehrenberg
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,688
Marlboro, NY, USA
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Quote:
The bearing is a nice idea but is the new bearing kit a fix for those who won't or can't or don't want to weld their k frame? It seems a properly welded/reinforced k frame would not require this additional piece as the steering box is now held very rigidly.
Has an evaluation been done to see if there is any discernible flex in the steering box mount after a full gusset and weld?
I usually use the unscientific approach, by looking at how much the pressure hose's chuck end (on PS cars) moves around when moving the steering wheel back 'n' forth a few inches, car at rest. In fact, this is how I discovered K flex 40 years ago!
From what I've seen, this simple bolt-on helps more than all the gusseting I've done over the years, and that's a lot! In fact, unless I was building another real road racer or auto-X'er, this is all I would bother with.
Again, I haven't measured, this is an eyeball estimation. Measurements, to be worth anything, would need to be done on the same car, same weight, same tire footprint and air pressure, etc.
Remember, no matter how much stiffness you add, the pitman (w/o the added bearing) will still be cantilevered out there.
'Course, it can never be too stiff... ;->
Rick
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Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car?
[Re: jcc]
#1155341
07/23/12 02:24 AM
07/23/12 02:24 AM
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,168
Vancouver, WA
MoparMarq
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 1,168
Vancouver, WA
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Quote:
Any installed pics?
I'll have one of the sector support kit by the end of the week. (It's kind of handy having Firm Feel less than a mile away.)
Quote:
And the purpose, if I understand it correctly, is to prevent "flexing" of the 1.25"? sector shaft, to lighten the load on the OEM sector bearings, AND to basically supply another mounting point for the PS box? I can't imagine shaft has much relative flex in the scheme of things.
If you take a look at the FSM, it is plainly obvious that the design of the steering gears does not plan for very high steering loads. The "cross shaft", or what we have have been referring to as the sector shaft, has ONE bearing supporting the load. Mainly, it appears that the bearing is to precisely locate the cross shaft w.r.t. the worm (input) shaft. The bottom end is held mainly by the housing, seal, and dust boot.
The "flex" in the steering system is a combination of (a) sector shaft flex, which admittedly is likely small, (b) housing flex, also probably fairly small, and K-frame steering gear mount point flex, which probably is the majority.
I see the sector support kit as having a two-fold purpose:
(1) reducing the flex of the above mentioned elements, and
(2) reducing the stress and wear on the steering gear housing at the lower end from the loads on the sector shaft.
We've all driven late-model cars - even my '86 Supra is still better than the RR in the handling department - why not help our vintage iron as much as possible with the tech improvements? 
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Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car?
[Re: Rick_Ehrenberg]
#1155342
07/23/12 02:36 AM
07/23/12 02:36 AM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730
Nampa, ID
MadMatt
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 730
Nampa, ID
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Quote:
Quote:
The bearing is a nice idea but is the new bearing kit a fix for those who won't or can't or don't want to weld their k frame? It seems a properly welded/reinforced k frame would not require this additional piece as the steering box is now held very rigidly.
Has an evaluation been done to see if there is any discernible flex in the steering box mount after a full gusset and weld?
I usually use the unscientific approach, by looking at how much the pressure hose's chuck end (on PS cars) moves around when moving the steering wheel back 'n' forth a few inches, car at rest. In fact, this is how I discovered K flex 40 years ago!
From what I've seen, this simple bolt-on helps more than all the gusseting I've done over the years, and that's a lot! In fact, unless I was building another real road racer or auto-X'er, this is all I would bother with.
Again, I haven't measured, this is an eyeball estimation. Measurements, to be worth anything, would need to be done on the same car, same weight, same tire footprint and air pressure, etc.
Remember, no matter how much stiffness you add, the pitman (w/o the added bearing) will still be cantilevered out there.
'Course, it can never be too stiff... ;->
Rick
I installed one on my '70 Dart with Firm Feel level II box. It did take more like an hour than 10 minutes, but I work slow. However, it was definitely worth the money and the effort, and I could immediately feel the difference.
Some see the glass as half empty, some see the glass as half full. I just drink straight out of the bottle.
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Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car?
[Re: Dan P]
#3222834
03/26/24 07:06 AM
03/26/24 07:06 AM
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,710
Florida
BDW
master
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master
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 4,710
Florida
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Re: Has anyone braced a K-frame in the car?
[Re: blown340]
#3223223
03/27/24 08:20 PM
03/27/24 08:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,998
Oregon
AndyF
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 30,998
Oregon
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Just do what the old NASCAR boys used to do. They would weld the K frame right to the car just to make everything nice and stiff. Here is a picture of a NASCAR chassis I took a few years ago. I think this chassis was from the 70's or maybe early 80's. It was still a torsion bar, leaf spring car so it was before the switch to trailing arms and coil springs.
Some of the parts are interesting to look at. The fabricated knuckle is very crude. Looks like a disc brake knuckle welded to a truck knuckle? The anti sway bar setup is fabricated, the strut bar is gigantic, the hubs are from an Imperial or a light truck or something along those lines.
Last edited by AndyF; 03/27/24 08:22 PM.
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Hahahahaha
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