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SECOND - Where are the warnings in FSM's(etc) ..against using Fram products?

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...right on Chrysler's list of TSB's actually!

Dave

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Fram oil filters are only good enough for Doc and his junk...eveybody else deserves higher quality

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PACperson .... my-junk is sooo PURRfect .. it does NOT NEED a filter.....

YERR junk needs THREE of the best filters made ..

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...right on Chrysler's list of TSB's actually!
Dave

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I have a new built 440 engine that has just been through overhaul. I have not given a lot of thought into the oil filter that I was going to use. I have a new Fram PH43

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I have a new Fram PH43

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Doesn't the big block take a ph8 or ph 8a or the equalivent?

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The big retailers, Advance, Autozone, etc., tend to buy their products based on price. If it's cheap, they buy it. NAPA on the other hand, tends to buy product that meets and often exceeds OE specs. NAPA also checks what they buy to make sure it meets their specifications. The retailers usually do not.

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I find it amusing thinking that 1/2 the oil filter "experts" who make adamant unconditional opinions here probably couldn't even rebuild a Briggs & Stratton...

"Nothing is more dangerous than a man who read a book once"



Reminds me of the Corvette forums where 9/10ths of the members wouldn't know which end of a screwdriver to use will run epic threads on "best waxing procedures".

Not one person has asked timcuda about his 440 or how it will be used.
Once a week to the Dairy Queen car show?
Sub 11 all out runs every weekend?

I'll take a shot at the fact that he could buy the cheapest oil filter at Walmart on sale and his engine would not be affected one iota.

YES! I know there have been threads opinionating what a POS the cheapest Fram is. If I had one on the shelf while doing an oil change on my DD, I wouldn't hesitate a second to put it on.


The guy asks a question and another uses the forum for a "soapbox" oration on how He feels about reading vs doing.( and without sound documentation attempts to insult 1/2 the site members) What has that got to do about recommending a good oil filter? I've read that putting a 357 magnum to one's temple and pulling the trigger will most likely blow one's brains out..seems logical but I'm not going to try it. And it doesnt't make Me an "expert" on the subject because (per His logic) I never did it.

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Nobody...NOBODY loves to save $$ than the factory... So why does a factory Mopar filter have nearly twice the filter media than the recommended Fram?

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You can do search here, or look for bob is the oil guy.com

The HP filters may be okay, but the standard Frams are proven to be the bottom of the barrel in quality and performance.

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You can do search here, or look for bob is the oil guy.com

The HP filters may be okay, but the standard Frams are proven to be the bottom of the barrel in quality and performance.

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Are the HP1 filters made better than a standard orange Fram?

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WIX, Fram, NAPA, etc... All of them utilize paper filter media. The manufacturing of paper filter media is not exact. As much as 40% of the filtering area of paper oil filters filter nothing at all, as in the filter is 40% blocked right out of the box.

Plus, how does paper respond to moisture? Right, it absorbs it. What does paper filter media do when it absorbs moisture from engine condensation and then it gets really cold outside. Yep! It freezes. Now your paper filter that was 40% blocked when new is now frozen and is really blocked. Now you have a completely worthless oil filter that's in bypass mode at cold engine start-up until it thaws out.

Do yourself a favor, do your engine a favor and throw out the paper oil filter. Then look for a micro-glass or better yet, a nano-glass oil filter. Previously only available in commercial and industrial applications, glass filter media technology has made it's way to the car and light truck market.

Seriously, research it.

Start here if you like: http://www.youtube.com/user/ckermit8

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Well here we go again ,it's either oil filters or oil,,
This question regenerates itself over and over!
Ok , lets roll with it ,
How much oil does a oil filter actually filter?
Answer not much at all! considering the amount of flow passing thru it.
In HP motors, will a HP filter filter more or less oil?
Answer, yes and no, why is that? because a HP filter allows for more oil to go thru it with out actually filtering the oil at all.
The more filtering medium used the actual less filter gets done!
So depending on the application , don't run a cheap standard filter on blown alcohol motor, or in 'disel' application don't run you cars filter on it.
Change you're oil at regular intervals use the proper weight of oil for the application
Now everyone can argue over it say what ever they wish , those are the facts!
By the way, I don't care what filter you run , just so long as it is used in the application that reguired for it!

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"As example, a 3 micron beta 200 microglass element has less restriction than a 30 micron paper element. Filter paper manufacture is not an exact science. In many paper elements, as much as 40% of the filter may not pass oil at all, thus reducing contaminant holding capacity and increasing flow resistance. Conversely, a "manufactured" microglass element can flow through 100% of its area which results in considerably increased contaminant capacity along with lower DP/resistance compared with a paper filter medium."George Morrison, STLE CLS

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In other words, WAY better filtering, and little or no pressure drop accross the filtering surface. It's not too good to be true, it's where modern technology takes us.

BTW, Those letters at the end of Mr. Morrison's name; he's more than just an internet expert on the subject of filtration.

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WIX, Fram, NAPA, etc... All of them utilize paper filter media. The manufacturing of paper filter media is not exact. As much as 40% of the filtering area of paper oil filters filter nothing at all, as in the filter is 40% blocked right out of the box.

Plus, how does paper respond to moisture? Right, it absorbs it. What does paper filter media do when it absorbs moisture from engine condensation and then it gets really cold outside. Yep! It freezes. Now your paper filter that was 40% blocked when new is now frozen and is really blocked. Now you have a completely worthless oil filter that's in bypass mode at cold engine start-up until it thaws out.

Do yourself a favor, do your engine a favor and throw out the paper oil filter. Then look for a micro-glass or better yet, a nano-glass oil filter. Previously only available in commercial and industrial applications, glass filter media technology has made it's way to the car and light truck market.

Seriously, research it.

Start here if you like: http://www.youtube.com/user/ckermit8

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Lived in Buffalo Ny most My life (over 60 years) and NEVER heard of an engine failing because of a FROZEN oil filter. How far is this to be taken ?

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Lived in Buffalo Ny most My life (over 60 years) and NEVER heard of an engine failing because of a FROZEN oil filter. How far is this to be taken ?

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"It is not simply a "full oil filter or stasis" situation. With paper pulp having so much of its chemistry composing water, when the filter medium becomes cold soaked at below even 32F, the water molecules can begin freezing and expanding, as only water does when frozen. The expansion fills voids, and thus potential significant filter medium restriction even beyond what paper normally does.
With a synthetic medium, the medium is completely unaffected by cold temperatures and flows as if 85 degrees..." George Morrison, STLE CLS

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In other words, WAY better filtering, and little or no pressure drop accross the filtering surface. It's not too good to be true, it's where modern technology takes us.

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I agree...sounds bogus to me. unless all you do is short trip the car anyway, then it's a possibility.

said paper will also absorb oil. I've seen "paper towels" that would soak up oil, but not water. we used them in centerless grinders for cutting OD on parts, and sometimes the machines leak oil into the coolant tanks when changing the diamond wheels. but I've not seen paper that soaks up water and not oil.

if you drive a car to temp, there's no water in the oil to freeze anywhere after you shut it down and it freezes outside.

that's like saying never, ever let your tank run below 3/4 before filling up, because all that air space allows humid air into your gas tank, where it will cool down overnight, condense, and then you get all kinds of water in your tank causing nothing but problems.

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and filter ability vs flow is one of those trade-offs that you'll never get rid of. the better the filter is at trapping smaller and smaller particles, the less it's going to flow.

my HVAC system at home will collapse a brand new, high dollar, "micro-allergen air filter" because it's a huge airflow restriction. Toss in a cheaper "dust filter" and the airflow is where it needs to be.

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"Regarding "seems too good to be true". Welcome to the world of microglass/synthetic filtration medium. I upgrade industrial applications every day from cellulose to microglass: go from a 30 micron paper element filter to a 6 micron microglass. Vastly improved filtration, in the 90% reduction level, as in the EaO, AND the filter generally lasts 2 to 4 times longer than the cellulose filter it was replacing. How? Generally up to 40% of a cellulose filter element passes nothing, absolutely blocked.. Whereas the microglass or nanofiber (whatever) is 100% flowable filter. So, yes, filtering much finer, flowing much easier and lasting considerably longer, even though it is capturing 90% more particulates... Indeed, it is true......" George Morrison, STLE CLS

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That's why I trust what he say's about lubricant filtration and why I no longer use paper oil filters. But then again, each to his own...

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What ? ...NOW it is only toilet-tissue ones ? ..

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Lived in Buffalo Ny most My life (over 60 years) and NEVER heard of an engine failing because of a FROZEN oil filter. How far is this to be taken ?

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Again, word for word:

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"It is not simply a "full oil filter or stasis" situation. With paper pulp having so much of its chemistry composing water, when the filter medium becomes cold soaked at below even 32F, the water molecules can begin freezing and expanding, as only water does when frozen. The expansion fills voids, and thus potential significant filter medium restriction even beyond what paper normally does.
With a synthetic medium, the medium is completely unaffected by cold temperatures and flows as if 85 degrees..." George Morrison, STLE CLS

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So, could the valve train clatter we periodically hear at could winter start-up be partly attributed to the frozen "paper pulp" media oil filter? Kinda of makes one think a little...

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I have heard plenty of valve clatter at "cold" start when the ambiant air tem is 100+ degrees outside

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Lived in Buffalo Ny most My life (over 60 years) and NEVER heard of an engine failing because of a FROZEN oil filter. How far is this to be taken ?

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Again, word for word:

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"It is not simply a "full oil filter or stasis" situation. With paper pulp having so much of its chemistry composing water, when the filter medium becomes cold soaked at below even 32F, the water molecules can begin freezing and expanding, as only water does when frozen. The expansion fills voids, and thus potential significant filter medium restriction even beyond what paper normally does.
With a synthetic medium, the medium is completely unaffected by cold temperatures and flows as if 85 degrees..." George Morrison, STLE CLS

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So, could the valve train clatter we periodically hear at could winter start-up be partly attributed to the frozen "paper pulp" media oil filter? Kinda of makes one think a little...

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I have heard plenty of valve clatter at "cold" start when the ambiant air tem is 100+ degrees outside

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that clatter at startup could be a lifter blleding off oil from sitting,oil not getting to the top end fast enough or other reseans beyond a "frozen" filter. A few years back...well maybe 20+ We had a cold snap in January where the high was forecasted to be -5. It lasted about a week (cold snap) and never heard of a frozen filter.Maybe the guys in minnesota or wisconsin have input but I know they use block heaters and heated areas alot

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Lived in Buffalo Ny most My life (over 60 years) and NEVER heard of an engine failing because of a FROZEN oil filter. How far is this to be taken ?

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Again, word for word:

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"It is not simply a "full oil filter or stasis" situation. With paper pulp having so much of its chemistry composing water, when the filter medium becomes cold soaked at below even 32F, the water molecules can begin freezing and expanding, as only water does when frozen. The expansion fills voids, and thus potential significant filter medium restriction even beyond what paper normally does.
With a synthetic medium, the medium is completely unaffected by cold temperatures and flows as if 85 degrees..." George Morrison, STLE CLS

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So, could the valve train clatter we periodically hear at could winter start-up be partly attributed to the frozen "paper pulp" media oil filter? Kinda of makes one think a little...

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I have heard plenty of valve clatter at "cold" start when the ambiant air tem is 100+ degrees outside

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that clatter at startup could be a lifter blleding off oil from sitting,oil not getting to the top end fast enough or other reseans beyond a "frozen" filter. A few years back...well maybe 20+ We had a cold snap in January where the high was forecasted to be -5. It lasted about a week (cold snap) and never heard of a frozen filter.Maybe the guys in minnesota or wisconsin have input but I know they use block heaters and heated areas alot

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FULL DISCLOSURE NEEDED

CompSyn, does everyone on this board know you are an Amsoil dealer?

Could this be why you are touting your own product?

Don't your posts belong in the FOR SALE section?



R.

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It should be obvious to anyone that he is a dealer. All you have to do is click on his name if it is not that obvious to you.

On the other hand, he never, to my knowledge, tries to get anyone to buy from him, or from Amsoil, but, he does bring tech data to the table to support his statements.

Seldom does anyone refute the data he presents. I don't see any problem and I do appreciate his efforts to present data rather than making claims followed by a plea to buy something from him.

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After meeting Herb McCandless,I only use Baldwin oil filters.

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That has been my choice for years

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Why not just buy that System1 filter for $190 bucks with the filter that can be washed...No need for the hoohah of buying a new one...Just put it in your dishwasher and call it a day.

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It is a good choice for a race car that will be torn down frequently. I did not go check the filtration specs on it just now, but, I seem to remember that it does not do much for very small particles that might create more long term wear on a street engine that is not being freshened regularly

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Why not just buy that System1 filter for $190 bucks with the filter that can be washed...No need for the hoohah of buying a new one...Just put it in your dishwasher and call it a day.

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Yo Moe ... but you have a shorter "day" with a toilet-tissue piece ... and it SURE IS NOT at a cost of almost 200 beans ....

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I had used Fram for some time then read several filter "teardown" posts and links with pics. There's not much filter area in the Fram and filter material and valving seems cheap. Those posts along with credible reports of bypass valves sticking open or closed steered me away. No I have never blow up an engine or lost oil pressure with one... I don't plan to find out by trying either. I use something else.

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Sounds like a smart and prudent conclusion to me!

As far as you guys trying to build a better mousetrap, google fuel polishing systems for boats (particularly passagemakers with diesel engines). There is no reason to "re-invent the wheel", this has all been well thought out before.

Dave

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FULL DISCLOSURE NEEDED

CompSyn, does everyone on this board know you are an Amsoil dealer?

Could this be why you are touting your own product?

Don't your posts belong in the FOR SALE section?

R.

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It should be obvious to anyone that he is a dealer. All you have to do is click on his name if it is not that obvious to you.

On the other hand, he never, to my knowledge, tries to get anyone to buy from him, or from Amsoil, but, he does bring tech data to the table to support his statements.

Seldom does anyone refute the data he presents. I don't see any problem and I do appreciate his efforts to present data rather than making claims followed by a plea to buy something from him.

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Thanks! Appreciate that Strawdawg.

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Now on to the important stuff:
I am a mechanical engineer at a power generating station and for the last six months have been formulating a plan to bring my facility's lubrication system up to speed into the 21st century. I have been reading everything I could get my hands on about lubrication and filtering. Here is what I have found so far:

Recent research shows that particulate much smaller than the clearance of the bearings does indeed increase wear. The target filter size seems to be heading towards 3 micron absolute.

Recent research shows that varnish is particulate and can actually be filtered out of the oil.

Oil coming from the manufacturer is relatively dirty. As said in one of the quotes cited by CompSyn it is possible to filter the oil in a system to be CLEANER than new. So to think you gain in cleanliness by changing the oil is wrong. The proper industrial procedure is to filter the oil INTO the application.

Water is very bad for oil. It reduces film strength greatly. It causes additives to drop out or to become catalysts for oxidation of the oil. It can do other bad things as well, and all at less percentage than it takes to make the oil cloudy. So by the time yor oil looks like a milkshake the oil has been severely compromised for a long time.

Much of motor oil particulate has traditionally come from ingested dust. That is helped by an air filter. But there are other mechanisms active in the crankcase that can also form particulate.

We are experimenting with dessicant breathers on our oil tanks. We are also using a 3 micron absolute filter on our hydraulic oil in a "kidney loop" arrangement. This has reduced the particulate loading between one and two ISO cleanliness grades, which is HUGE.

I am in no way associated with AMSOIL but it seems to me from my reading that the synthetic medium filters (like Amsoil) are definitely better than ANY paper or cellulose filter. To me, this seems to be a fact.

If you need a better filter is for you to decide.

R.

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That's right on dogdays.

One willing to dig into the science behind modern tech lubricant filtration will discover the same thing, 1950s technology paper oil filters are not the best we have available today. I'd also add that there is more than one manufacture producing glass media oil filters for automotive applications which is why I speak in general terms. I will add that some are made with "micro-technology", and others with "nano-technology". Research the differences in construction if you like.

Also, with regard to dogdays comments, there seems to be a fine point in filtration for automotive applications. Mr. Morrison claimed he saw evidence through personal experience that lube filtration capable of filtering oil to 5 microns or below could also begin stripping the Viscosity Index Improver (VII) out of the oils additive package. Apparently, lubricants used in industrial applications don't rely on the VIIs that automotive engine oils utilize, so this is not an issue in most of those industrial applications.

But yes, dogdays is also correct that there are automotive oil filters on the market today that can filter motor oil to a point of cleanliness beyond that of the brand new oil coming out of the quart bottle without stripping the additive package out of the oil.

Mr. Morrison went on to say that his, "ISO cleanliness is reduced from 18/17/15 to 14/13/11", when comparing the OEM paper oil filter to the alternative glass media oil filter he used in his testing.

Most astonishing of all, Mr. Morrison went on to say that,"my used engine oil is cleaner than the oil which came out of the quart bottle", again referring to the motor oil being filtered with the glass media oil filter.

I don't know, call me crazy but when a lubrication engineer specializing in filtration speaks out about his real world test findings, I figure he may know something a little more than an automotive mechanic, or a famed race car driver, or the guy behind the parts counter or even the smartest of smart Internet experts.

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I don't know, call me crazy but when a lubrication engineer specializing in filtration speaks out about his real world test findings, I figure he may know something a little more than an automotive mechanic, or a famed race car driver, or the guy behind the parts counter or even the smartest of smart Internet experts.

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Now that's just crazy, you could use facts and evidence to prove whatever you want. Don't get technical with us, everyone knows them Frams is junk, it says it all over the internet.

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Fram filters are crap--cardboard end caps, poor construction, minimal filter media.
Buy a Wix or a Napa Gold.

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Nobody asked what I needed the filter for but here it is..,

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Nobody asked what I needed the filter for but here it is..,

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Check way back early on in thread. That's exactly what I was scolding everyone about...
Everyone wants to throw in their 2 cents without a nickle's worth of thought first.

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Nobody asked what I needed the filter for but here it is..,

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Check way back early on in thread. That's exactly what I was scolding everyone about...
Everyone wants to throw in their 2 cents without a nickle's worth of thought first.

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...yet TinCuda is heeding the collective advice and tossing the Fram in the trash!!!

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Save the cost of a Happy Meal one week and go buy a filter from your local Mopar dealer. Problem solved.
Why worry over the cost of an oil filter? How much money do you spend on things you don't need?

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Don't know how much Happy Meals cost in your neck of the woods, but here they would have to be mighty expensive to equal the cost of a Mopar oil filter. I was buying the long filter at the Mopar dealer, for my small-block.

With tax, 27.00...

I finally wised up after buying three of them, and I now use Wix.

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And I get to say it, as I frequently do...

Up next -- Green bearings!

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Or Ford 9" vs. Dana

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......all I can say is this: whether or not they are horrible filters, WHY risk a brand new motor to save $1.50??

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THIS.

Especially if you go to the Hot Deals section here and look at the top thread 'Discounts on WIX filters for moparts members'. You can get GOOD filters even cheaper than most anywhere else!

(I'm not affiliated with them, just hate to see motors possibly junked to save a few bucks).

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Probably a good idea...I saw one fail a month ago...but whether one believes they fail more often than some other brands, or not, they are still cheaply built and don't flow as well as better brands...all one has to do is cut one open and cut open a good brand and compare how small the oil passages are from the inlet holes to the filter media. Then cut open a Wix, Baldwin, etc. and see the difference.

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Price does dictate quality! Fram as well as any of the above mention companies ,all make a cheeper 'line ' of filters, all for the consumer to decide what filter fits their needs.
We in the racing world/ street cars that have hard earned money on motors tend not to run a 'cheeper 'filter.Then it get down to who ever your best friend says, or that's the oil filer my dad run, best yet , the ol display sitting on the counter trick,, take a cheeper filter , put it up against top of the line stuff, guess what? You just fell into the marketing world of sales! then you say, well they have all this info of their filter does this, and it's 10 x better than that one.
best piece of advice , change your oil in timely manner, 3-5000 range. Always change filter(of your choice),don't forget the air filter and breather filter, try to keep as clean of air going into the motor as possiable. put in a decent grade of oil, look at your oil, see whats in it, I always run a magnetic oil drain bolt, I also run a synthetic oil, most of these newer cars , I highly recommend it. but it's your choice.

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I have used Fram myself without any issues in numerous cars. That being said, I have heard bad things about them so I have since stopped using their standard line and have gone to other brands or their ToughGaurd.

Intersetingly enough, I have a friend who had his 2007 Honda Accord leave him stranded on the side of the road one day...turns out his FRAM oil filter had disintegrated and fallen apart and gummed up the works! So I guess I definitely won't be using their standard series anymore!

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Last time I cut one open, it was one of the better ones, it still had the cardboard ends glued on it. The one I mentioned from a month ago was the Xtreme Guard....the filter was okay, but, the anti drainback valve was not stopping the drain back.

One of my Buick friends called me about his new engine that would not hold a prime. He fired it up, was running well, so he drove it down to the gas station to fill the tank. When He fired it up, it started rattling and he looked at the gauge to see no oil pressure.

Called for a tow, got it home, poured some oil down the oil cooler line back into the pump (external pump up on the front cover that will hardly ever prime by turning the pump) and it had great pressure. Turned it off, let it sit for a few minutes and it had no pressure.

Called me to ask what he should check when he tore it apart and I told him to go get a Napa or Wix filter, or anything but Fram or AC, and he informed me that he always used Fram and that was what was on it. Anyway, the Napa filter fixed it.

I suspect we will see an increasing amount of problems will a lot of brands that are made overseas. It is just that Fram has been a prime candidate for failure for a long time due to the construction techniques employed.

Put a high volume pump and some heavy oil
in one and increase the load on the element and I think it is more likely to collapse.

The more expensive filters with the smaller particle filtration may be even more prone as the internal load is greater due to the resistance to flow. That is an opinion-not a fact, however.

That is what is intriguing in the nano filter technique by Amsoil. It claims high flow rates. We will probably never see an independent flow test between brands...that would be bad for advertising.

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After meeting Herb McCandless,I only use Baldwin oil filters.

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After meeting Herb McCandless,I only use Baldwin oil filters.

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I agree!!Still use em and sell to my friends when they need em and cant get em!

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Would you also wear a toupee after meeting Chuck Norris?

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After meeting Herb McCandless,I only use Baldwin oil filters.

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I agree!!Still use em and sell to my friends when they need em and cant get em!

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Would you also wear a toupee after meeting Chuck Norris?

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After meeting Herb McCandless,I only use Baldwin oil filters.

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I agree!!Still use em and sell to my friends when they need em and cant get em!

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Would you also wear a toupee after meeting Chuck Norris?

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I have been using Baldwin filters for over 20 years!I just use what i think is better quality than others that`s all!
And NO!!I am not a monkey see monkey do!!Beside`s i don`t need a toupee yet!!

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Donaldson links shut down, bummer...

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CS .... it PROBABLY is not that ... they more-than-likely could not sell anymore of those FORTY THREE DOLLAR oil filters ..