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Re: Any reasons why not to use a HV Oil Pump ???
[Re: BSB67]
#1098881
10/22/11 11:16 AM
10/22/11 11:16 AM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,782
USA
JoesMopar
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,782
USA
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Quote:
Quote:
I guess if you're using stock heads the oil would drain back easier with the huge openings in the heads. The aftermarket Stealth and Edelbrock heads don't have that, so it's easy to suck the pan dry when running it hard with an HV oil pump.
Once you are at the pressure of the relief spring, the high volume pump does not put any more oil to the motor. It just recirculates more oil from the pump relief valve back to the pan.
Well this is all news to me, after sucking the pan dry everytime I would accelerate enthusiastically with my stock 383/Stealth Head/HV oil pump. My gauge would read ~75psi (mechanical) and drop/flutter/etc when I got on it due to lack of available oil (oil was full). Also noticed that the oil would stay hung up in the heads because there was so much of it. Ended up pulling the valve covers, no blockage, swapped to a standard oil pump and haven't had a single problem since. Alot of the theories behind the HV oil pump sound good, but reality is a different story. And for a stock build, or any build where the passages aren't opened up, there is no point that I can see in using an HV oil pump. Look at what everyone says about the pressure relief spring "recirculating the oil"....that means it's not getting used efficiently....so why have it? 
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Re: Any reasons why not to use a HV Oil Pump ???
[Re: joelson6]
#1098882
10/22/11 11:17 AM
10/22/11 11:17 AM
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
Supercuda
About to go away
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About to go away
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 14,889
up yours
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If you have ever used a factory oil cooler, such as the one I added to my Diplomat, it's essentially an internal leak. It taps off the port where the sending unit goes, feeds thru the cooler and dumps back into the crankcase thru a rifle drilled fuel pump bolt. My oil pressure never hit the relief spring rating, I added a good oil pressure gauge, too. The HV pump had no problems keeping everything lubed. Used the stock drive too and never had an issue, till it sucked up a bit of cast iron and locked the pump up, my fault there I modified the screen to "open it up" and it sure did open up.
As for fitting an HV pump on a smallblock, I usually test fit the pump and pan without gaskets, use a torch to spot heat the pan and a hammer to clearance it, then the gasket will space the pan up enough so that there is no rubbing. works for me.
They say there are no such thing as a stupid question.
They say there is always the exception that proves the rule.
Don't be the exception.
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Re: Any reasons why not to use a HV Oil Pump ???
[Re: 440forPOWER]
#1098883
10/22/11 11:24 AM
10/22/11 11:24 AM
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Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
451Mopar
master
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master
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 5,399
Aurora, Colorado
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Quote:
Is it safe to run a bronze distributor drive with a HV pump? This will be a full groove main, roller cam setup. Thanks
You could use 1/2 groove mains. I had the Mopar Performance Bronze drive in my old 451 Stroker with a HV pump and Ultradyne solid roller cam for over 10,000 miles and it looked fine when I pulled the engine apart.
Never had a problem with the HV pumps. The main think I have noticed is the HV pump makes alot more pressure at idle and low RPM compared to a stock pump.
If a stock pump and HV pump had the same maximum pressure at high RPM they should be flowing the same amount of oil through the engine, so "sucking the pan dry" is about as likely as with a stock pump.
The HV pump does take a bit more power to spin, but it's not a issue unless doing some dyno shootout stuff.
The HV pump is deeper so you would need longer oil pump bolts.
The oil pump shaft should fit both style pumps the same. Make sure the oil pump shaft tip is not broken off and the bushing is seated all the way down.
One last note: Make sure to have the "O" ring on the pump body where it fits inside the block because that is on the suction side of the pump gasket.
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Re: Any reasons why not to use a HV Oil Pump ???
[Re: JoesMopar]
#1098884
10/22/11 11:41 AM
10/22/11 11:41 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Why does everyone want a HV oil pump?
For the same reason they want 440 heads on their 383's
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Re: Any reasons why not to use a HV Oil Pump ???
[Re: mosweethemi]
#1098885
10/22/11 11:42 AM
10/22/11 11:42 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Hello Over 26 years of engine building I have aways put HV pumps on all engine ! not any trouble with any of them! On the street or on the track.I have them on my Hemi and our SixPack and they get run hard all of the time .Thanks  
Are you running 4qt sump pans on those engines ?
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Re: Any reasons why not to use a HV Oil Pump ???
[Re: 62440]
#1098886
10/22/11 11:46 AM
10/22/11 11:46 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
JohnRR
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,020
U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
I have a Moroso 7 quart deep pan, so running out of oil won't be a problem. The high volume pump that I had on the shelf is a Mellings M-63HV It's body/impeller is 1/4" taller than a stock pump. I suppose the HV pump will rob a bit of power, but I was wondering if it would cause any other problem
With a 7qt sump pan you'll be fine , run it BUT open the pump up and make sure it is ok inside , clean , the o ring that seals the cover tot he pump body is ok and doesn't look like it was machined wit ha ROCK . The last melling pump I bought , hi pressure not high volume , leaked between the cover and the body , the o ring was nicked and the cover had a lot of scratches. A half hour or so of lapping it on a surface plate by hand took care of the scratches, a new o-ring and no more leaks .
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Re: Any reasons why not to use a HV Oil Pump ???
[Re: d-150]
#1098888
10/22/11 12:00 PM
10/22/11 12:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,023
Lincoln NE
440forPOWER
super gas
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super gas
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,023
Lincoln NE
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I was planning on using the HV pump on my 470 street combo. The hydraulic roller has an oiling groove in a few of the cam journals and I have full groove bearings. I also bought an adjustable valve so I can adjust the pressure to what is needed for my combo. (Around 65 psi) Hopefully putting less stress on the bronze drive. Right now I have a 6qt pan but I'm thinking about going to a 7 qt. This motor will only see 6200 rpm. Does this sound ok?
Last edited by 440forPOWER; 10/22/11 12:06 PM.
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Re: Any reasons why not to use a HV Oil Pump ???
[Re: 440forPOWER]
#1098889
10/22/11 01:05 PM
10/22/11 01:05 PM
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
dodgeboy11
super stock
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super stock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,025
Las Vegas, NV
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The HV pump moves more oil with every turn regardless of rpm. It has to, the rotors are taller. And don't let anyone tell you it recirculates whatever oil isn't going into the oil passages back to the pan. It doesn't. It simply sends the oil not needed back to the suction side of the pump to be recirculated through the pump again.
If you're running bearing clearances at the upper end of the clearance spectrum (.0028-.0032 mains- .0022-.0026 rods) then I think a HV pump is a good idea. I also think a larger capacity pan is a good idea. All this talk of sucking the pan dry. If that's the case, you need a larger pan. People tend to look at the results and not the cause. If the pump can move that much oil, then it's doing its job, if the pan can't supply enough.... Get a larger pan.
Better yet, start with the larger pan and don't worry about it at all. Oil does more than lubricate, it also cools. The more of it you have, the better it is for the engine.
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Re: Any reasons why not to use a HV Oil Pump ???
[Re: JohnRR]
#1098890
10/22/11 01:35 PM
10/22/11 01:35 PM
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,782
USA
JoesMopar
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master
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,782
USA
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Quote:
Quote:
Why does everyone want a HV oil pump?
For the same reason they want 440 heads on their 383's
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Re: Any reasons why not to use a HV Oil Pump ???
[Re: d-150]
#1098892
10/22/11 02:34 PM
10/22/11 02:34 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,825
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,825
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
i read an article that the hv pumps only pump more oil under 2500rpm.i think it was a mopar muscle article.
Technically thats impossible, as oil pumps are "positive displacment" pumps in that they move a specific amount of oil per revolution. HV pumps are taller to accomplish this additional displacement.
The motor itself might not RECIEVE that additional oil due to the relief valve coming into play above a certain RPM however.
I had a 440 with an HV pump, loose bearing clearances, 4 quart unbaffeled pan that would EASILY suck it self dry (ever wish you could do that?).
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Re: Any reasons why not to use a HV Oil Pump ???
[Re: Pacnorthcuda]
#1098893
10/22/11 02:39 PM
10/22/11 02:39 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
RapidRobert
Circle Track
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Circle Track
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 36,040
Lincoln Nebraska
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Pac on yours that emptied the pan. what symptoms was it showing? low PSI? bearing probs?
live every 24 hour block of time like it's your last day on earth
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Re: Any reasons why not to use a HV Oil Pump ???
[Re: ahy]
#1098894
10/22/11 06:13 PM
10/22/11 06:13 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 269
BC Canada
62440
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 269
BC Canada
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Quote:
With the HV pump an improved oil pump driveshaft is recommended for the higher load. The hex is hardened, the taper to the hex is radiused and the gear is pinned. Though nor common, the HV pump can fail the standard shaft.
As long as you have the correct shaft the only drawback is you loose one or two HP. I use one on a B engine with full groove bearings and performance clearances. It helps keep the hot oil pressure at idle reasonable with that setup.
I think the stock distributor shaft would be the main problem with the HV pump. Where would be the cheapest place to pick one up ? I just can't figure why the stock shaft won't fit into the stock pump. It fits fine in the HV pump. Everything Looks good. Nothing seems to be nicked or galled. just Very Very tight. Would a light clearance job inside with a small fine file make any sense 
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Re: Any reasons why not to use a HV Oil Pump ???
[Re: 62440]
#1098895
10/22/11 06:22 PM
10/22/11 06:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
ahy
master
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master
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 7,664
IN
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Quote:
Quote:
With the HV pump an improved oil pump driveshaft is recommended for the higher load. The hex is hardened, the taper to the hex is radiused and the gear is pinned. Though nor common, the HV pump can fail the standard shaft.
As long as you have the correct shaft the only drawback is you loose one or two HP. I use one on a B engine with full groove bearings and performance clearances. It helps keep the hot oil pressure at idle reasonable with that setup.
I think the stock distributor shaft would be the main problem with the HV pump. Where would be the cheapest place to pick one up ? I just can't figure why the stock shaft won't fit into the stock pump. It fits fine in the HV pump. Everything Looks good. Nothing seems to be nicked or galled. just Very Very tight. Would a light clearance job inside with a small fine file make any sense
Mancini will have both types of shaft. 440 source also. An auto parts store may be able to order the standard type as well.
Can you do a close inspection of the stock pump? Is there a burr or poorly machined area? I would feel comfortable removing a localized problem with a file or such but wouldn't want to file the whole hex area.
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Re: Any reasons why not to use a HV Oil Pump ???
[Re: RapidRobert]
#1098896
10/22/11 06:43 PM
10/22/11 06:43 PM
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,825
Kirkland, Washington
Pacnorthcuda
Too Many Posts
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Too Many Posts
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 21,825
Kirkland, Washington
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Quote:
Pac on yours that emptied the pan. what symptoms was it showing? low PSI? bearing probs?
From a dead stop if I accelerated hard I could watch the autometer oil pressure gauge start to rise and then rapidly return to zero as I acceleration from maybe 10 to 20 mph! Not something you want to see.
Happened many times and was much easier to do if I was on an incline of course.
No windage tray either.
I got by with running 20-50 oil and ALWAYS having a quart over (maybe even a little more) in the pan.
Eventually I replaced the rod bearings, installed a baffled pan and a tray. STILL had to overfill the pan by a quart though.
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Re: Any reasons why not to use a HV Oil Pump ???
[Re: ahy]
#1098897
10/22/11 07:37 PM
10/22/11 07:37 PM
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 269
BC Canada
62440
OP
enthusiast
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OP
enthusiast
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 269
BC Canada
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
With the HV pump an improved oil pump driveshaft is recommended for the higher load. The hex is hardened, the taper to the hex is radiused and the gear is pinned. Though nor common, the HV pump can fail the standard shaft.
As long as you have the correct shaft the only drawback is you loose one or two HP. I use one on a B engine with full groove bearings and performance clearances. It helps keep the hot oil pressure at idle reasonable with that setup.
I think the stock distributor shaft would be the main problem with the HV pump. Where would be the cheapest place to pick one up ? I just can't figure why the stock shaft won't fit into the stock pump. It fits fine in the HV pump. Everything Looks good. Nothing seems to be nicked or galled. just Very Very tight. Would a light clearance job inside with a small fine file make any sense
Can you do a close inspection of the stock pump? Is there a burr or poorly machined area? I would feel comfortable removing a localized problem with a file or such but wouldn't want to file the whole hex area.
I think I'll try to smooth the inside a bit. The shaft seems to only ride on every other surface. If I can't get the shaft to fit the stock pump, I will most likely use the HV pump for the time being and try and pick up a hardened shaft sometime. 
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Re: Any reasons why not to use a HV Oil Pump ???
[Re: dodgeboy11]
#1098898
10/22/11 08:46 PM
10/22/11 08:46 PM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,314
Prospect, PA
BSB67
master
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master
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,314
Prospect, PA
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Quote:
It simply sends the oil not needed back to the suction side of the pump to be recirculated through the pump again.
Correct. The effect is that it does not remove any more oil out of the pan. Chances are if the internal clearances are loose enough to suck the pan dry with a HV pump, it will also suck dry with a standard rotor pump and the same relief spring. I've never had a problem maintaining pressure with a std rotor in a loose motor at speed. Idle is another story.
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"Needs Slight Grinding of the Hex Flats to fit the Pump" 
That doesn't sound right to me !!! Wouldn't the shaft be case hardened and would not grinding ruin the hardening ???