A matter of opinion: resto cost
#1089391
10/06/11 01:01 PM
10/06/11 01:01 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,060 Western New York
sixpackbee
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I rarely get a complete job to do. Mostly do total body/paint and customers assemble. Get quite a few engines/trans too. I have one coming in. Total job. The car is very complete and original. Needs only a carb to be found. Needs complete rear body panels and floor. No frame work needed. Underside will be done in primer type deatil. Total interior redo, seat covers ect. Engine will be done all new and slightly internally warmed over. Rebuild trans. Rear gear swap and rebuild. Suspension redo and powder coated. In short the car comes to me as it is. Not running and rusty. It gets delivered back in very, very nice driver quality, no paint daubs, overpray type details, turn key style. I came up with just north of 35,000 parts and labor. Opinions: is he going to take a swing at me or is my foot bleeding from a self inflicted injury?
1959 Bugeye Sprite 1967 Charger Black L code 1967 Coronet R/T Convert Green 440 auto bought from original owner 1968 Charger R/T Bronze 440 4 spd console AM/FM 1969 Super Bee WM21H B5 A40 D21 N96 1969 Barracuda Formula S 340 Convert pilot car 1969 Hemi Road Runner RM23J D32 Omaha orange 4.10 Dana N96 N85 1970 Super Bee WM23N FE5 V1X 3.91 axle package, N96 1970 Road Runner RM21N B3 V1X D13 1971 MG Midget 1971 Road Runner RM23H GW3, A57 1972 Road Runner RM23P FY1, D21
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Re: A matter of opinion: resto cost
[Re: sixpackbee]
#1089392
10/06/11 01:25 PM
10/06/11 01:25 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,512 It's a dry heat
gtx6970
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Quote:
I came up with just north of 35,000 parts and labor.
Quote:
is my foot bleeding from a self inflicted injury?
must not need much in big ticket items - sheetmetal as an example
this the one you emailed me about?
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Re: A matter of opinion: resto cost
[Re: gtx6970]
#1089393
10/06/11 01:37 PM
10/06/11 01:37 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,060 Western New York
sixpackbee
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Quote:
this the one you emailed me about?
Yes it is. Keep it quiet though. Needs both quarters, wheelhouses, trunk floor, main floor, trunk extensions, and some inner fender work by the battery. Will be using AMD stuff for ease of availability.
1959 Bugeye Sprite 1967 Charger Black L code 1967 Coronet R/T Convert Green 440 auto bought from original owner 1968 Charger R/T Bronze 440 4 spd console AM/FM 1969 Super Bee WM21H B5 A40 D21 N96 1969 Barracuda Formula S 340 Convert pilot car 1969 Hemi Road Runner RM23J D32 Omaha orange 4.10 Dana N96 N85 1970 Super Bee WM23N FE5 V1X 3.91 axle package, N96 1970 Road Runner RM21N B3 V1X D13 1971 MG Midget 1971 Road Runner RM23H GW3, A57 1972 Road Runner RM23P FY1, D21
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Re: A matter of opinion: resto cost
[Re: sixpackbee]
#1089395
10/06/11 02:35 PM
10/06/11 02:35 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
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I say you're foot is bleeding. I don't have time to give you a complete breakdown, but $35k wouldn't cover the cost of parts and the drivetrain in my case. I have over $100k in my resto, but my car was missing lots of stuff which significantly added to the cost. If it was together and complete, I probably could have saved $20 - $30k. Also, I spent good money on many repop parts that weren't good enough to use and also I bought quite a few spares. Bottom line is that I spent $50k on metal work, body work, paint, panel alignment and body reassembly. Shop had over 600 hours charged to the car which I have every reason to believe is accurate. At a pretty cheap charge out rate of $50/hr that's $30,000 in labor alone. (If you want more detail on exactly what metal work was done and how many hours were spent, let me know and I'll dig it out.) ....then you can add in the engine, tranny, driveshaft, rear end, dash and gauges, interior, exhaust, suspension, etc. etc. Even the sub assy's that Jules did for me (steering column, wiper motor and linkage, e-brake assy, heater box) added up to a fair chunk of change. I just don't see how a quality rotisserie restoration by skilled workers can cost any less than $50 - $60k.....heck, lots of people have indicated that they have 1000 - 2000 hours in thier resto and even at the cheapest rates possible for a real and viable business, it simply adds up. Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
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Re: A matter of opinion: resto cost
[Re: LimeliteAero]
#1089397
10/06/11 03:25 PM
10/06/11 03:25 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 21,512 It's a dry heat
gtx6970
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Holgar, no offense but I think your working for free
Hopefully yours is not a closed end estimate. meaning it can't - will not go above said estimate. Mine aren't
I just got a 68 Charger in and Ted Stephens dropped of 2 quarters, 1 trunk floor with both dropoffs , 2 valance end caps,decklid and 1 fender and it was over $3k in parts alone
then the time fitting repop parts is a job in itself. I spent the better part of the afternoon doing nothing but installing wheel lip mouldings on a 1970 Cuda.
Then diag time to find out 2 wires were crossed in the new dash harness causing an inop wiper motor. it adds up,,,,,faster then one might think
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Re: A matter of opinion: resto cost
[Re: gtx6970]
#1089398
10/06/11 03:45 PM
10/06/11 03:45 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 18,582 Rust Belt, SW PA
Silver70
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I Live Here
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I work for cheap, like half of just body shops, where most resto only shops charge more... I have very little over head and it keeps me busy doing something I enjoy.
Anyways, unless you charging like 10 an hour, 35k is very low! If your charging 35 an hour, that will pay for 1000 hours, not including parts, supplies, etc... and your looking at approx 1000 hours for a full resto. Give or take a couple hundred hours depending on a lot of things. I;d say a more realistic number would be like 50k. And that number could scare off a lot of people.
A lot of a resto is little tedious stuff and lately I've avoided them and stuck to just body/paint. I make more money doing this than full restos also.
68 Road Runner, 69 Belvedere, 71 Challenger Vert 340 barracuda, 01 Ram CTD, 95 Ram, 04 Ram, 85 Daytona turbo Z 66 GTO, 06 Magnum RT AWD. 07 Ram CTD, 07 Ram
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Re: A matter of opinion: resto cost
[Re: Mopar Grandpa]
#1089400
10/06/11 04:17 PM
10/06/11 04:17 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,060 Western New York
sixpackbee
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I guess a little explanation of our local situation. This is a highly depressed area. 85k will buy you a real nice house. Median income is quite a ways below national average. My shop has been paid for for 20 years. I have virtually no overhead. These are the reasons my labor rate is so low. If I told someone around here that it was 50k or more to do their car I would be running for my life. Sort of hard to tell someone it costs more to retore their car than they paid for their house.
1959 Bugeye Sprite 1967 Charger Black L code 1967 Coronet R/T Convert Green 440 auto bought from original owner 1968 Charger R/T Bronze 440 4 spd console AM/FM 1969 Super Bee WM21H B5 A40 D21 N96 1969 Barracuda Formula S 340 Convert pilot car 1969 Hemi Road Runner RM23J D32 Omaha orange 4.10 Dana N96 N85 1970 Super Bee WM23N FE5 V1X 3.91 axle package, N96 1970 Road Runner RM21N B3 V1X D13 1971 MG Midget 1971 Road Runner RM23H GW3, A57 1972 Road Runner RM23P FY1, D21
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Re: A matter of opinion: resto cost
[Re: sixpackbee]
#1089401
10/06/11 04:28 PM
10/06/11 04:28 PM
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 2,252 Sebring, Florida
Mopar Grandpa
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Quote:
I guess a little explanation of our local situation. This is a highly depressed area. 85k will buy you a real nice house. Median income is quite a ways below national average. My shop has been paid for for 20 years. I have virtually no overhead. These are the reasons my labor rate is so low. If I told someone around here that it was 50k or more to do their car I would be running for my life. Sort of hard to tell someone it costs more to retore their car than they paid for their house.
That's understandable but the parts will cost the same, wheather you live in a depressed area or a rich area. The body shop that did my '69 car had over 670 hours in it but the thing is dead straight. Paint materials, depending on the color, will probably cost you over $2,000 which includes primers, bondo, sandpaper, tape, etc., etc. I think you'll be surprised at the final cost.
I would be happy to send you the 11 page breakdown of my parts and labor charges. Just PM me with your e-mail address.
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Re: A matter of opinion: resto cost
[Re: Mopar Grandpa]
#1089402
10/06/11 04:41 PM
10/06/11 04:41 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada
DPelletier
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Quote:
Quote:
I guess a little explanation of our local situation. This is a highly depressed area. 85k will buy you a real nice house. Median income is quite a ways below national average. My shop has been paid for for 20 years. I have virtually no overhead. These are the reasons my labor rate is so low. If I told someone around here that it was 50k or more to do their car I would be running for my life. Sort of hard to tell someone it costs more to retore their car than they paid for their house.
That's understandable but the parts will cost the same, wheather you live in a depressed area or a rich area. The body shop that did my '69 car had over 670 hours in it but the thing is dead straight. Paint materials, depending on the color, will probably cost you over $2,000 which includes primers, bondo, sandpaper, tape, etc., etc. I think you'll be surprised at the final cost.
I would be happy to send you the 11 page breakdown of my parts and labor charges. Just PM me with your e-mail address.
All that changes is the labor rate; we've all been saying that a proper resto will take 1000 hrs give or take and the part cost is the same no matter where you are.
Even if you charge yourself out at $20/hr and don't have to pay rent, insurance, taxes, upkeep, tool replacement, etc. etc. it is still going to break down something like this;
- parts & materials: $20,000
- farmed out component resto and specialty labor: $ 10,000
- 1000 hrs at $20/hr: 20,000
Total: $50,000
All I know is that I could have done ALL the labor by myself for free and I still would have spent more than your $35k budget. I would take the offer given above and take a look at a spreadsheet for a complete nut and bolt resto to make sure you haven't missed or underestimated significant items.
Do what you like, but I think you're making a big mistake and will be working for free. If we could all get quality resto work done where you live for 1/3rd the going rate, we'd all be doing that.
OTOH, if you don't have any bills to pay, maybe it's a good idea to do this one and then you'll know for sure one way or the other.
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
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Re: A matter of opinion: resto cost
[Re: sixpackbee]
#1089403
10/06/11 04:43 PM
10/06/11 04:43 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 75,098 A Banana Republic near you.
JohnRR
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Quote:
I guess a little explanation of our local situation. This is a highly depressed area. 85k will buy you a real nice house. Median income is quite a ways below national average. My shop has been paid for for 20 years. I have virtually no overhead. These are the reasons my labor rate is so low. If I told someone around here that it was 50k or more to do their car I would be running for my life. Sort of hard to tell someone it costs more to retore their car than they paid for their house.
PM me your address , I have a car to ship out ...
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Re: A matter of opinion: resto cost
[Re: DPelletier]
#1089404
10/06/11 04:58 PM
10/06/11 04:58 PM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 3,060 Western New York
sixpackbee
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I've done enough paint jobs and I know what I can get away with there. The only complete cars I have done were my own and I did not keep track of them for money or time because I just do not care what it takes. Quick breakdown here. Engine: Parts 3275. Labor 500. Trans: parts and labor 500. Body panels 3750. Paint and materials 2500. Total body labor 6650.Outsource 2350. On a big job I uaually sell parts at 10 over and am a dealer for most of what I need so that keeps the total down a bit. I figure if they are spending good labor money then I can help out with the parts. I am also looking to do a general how to book and this may be the perfect subject. My wife always says I am too kind for my own good but I sleep OK.
1959 Bugeye Sprite 1967 Charger Black L code 1967 Coronet R/T Convert Green 440 auto bought from original owner 1968 Charger R/T Bronze 440 4 spd console AM/FM 1969 Super Bee WM21H B5 A40 D21 N96 1969 Barracuda Formula S 340 Convert pilot car 1969 Hemi Road Runner RM23J D32 Omaha orange 4.10 Dana N96 N85 1970 Super Bee WM23N FE5 V1X 3.91 axle package, N96 1970 Road Runner RM21N B3 V1X D13 1971 MG Midget 1971 Road Runner RM23H GW3, A57 1972 Road Runner RM23P FY1, D21
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Re: A matter of opinion: resto cost
[Re: sixpackbee]
#1089407
10/06/11 05:33 PM
10/06/11 05:33 PM
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada
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I Live Here
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Quote:
I've done enough paint jobs and I know what I can get away with there. The only complete cars I have done were my own and I did not keep track of them for money or time because I just do not care what it takes. Quick breakdown here. Engine: Parts 3275. Labor 500. Trans: parts and labor 500. Body panels 3750. Paint and materials 2500. Total body labor 6650.Outsource 2350.
You might be ok on the paint and body (though you're probably paying yourself $10 - $15/hr) but the big issue here is all the parts that are UNRELATED to the body. what about bumpers, gas tanks, fuel lines, brake lines, ebrake cables, drums, rotors, springs, shocks, exhaust, wiring harnesses, front end components, rebuilt alternators/ps pumps/steering boxes/heat boxes/wiper motors/blower motors.......and about 10000 other parts?
my paint and bodywork (including assy, dissassy, stripping, etc.) took over 600hrs BUT it's the other 600 that had nothing to do with paint and body that I would worry about if I were you.
again, do what you like, but the responses to this thread have been unanimous in saying you are way too low........and several of these responses have been from people who do this for a living.
It doesn't matter much to me what you do; just trying to help you avoid losing your shirt. Frankly, in order to do the car for $35k you aren't restoring everything and possibly not taking the time to do some things right.
my last
Dave
1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1974 'Cuda
2008 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Ram 3500 Diesel
2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel
2003 Ram 3500 Diesel
2006 Durango Limited
[url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]
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Re: A matter of opinion: resto cost
[Re: DPelletier]
#1089408
10/06/11 06:06 PM
10/06/11 06:06 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 3,318 Southern Maryland
klunick
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I hate to say it, but I also think you are shorting yourself. There is a lot of time spent doing stuff that makes something right, but nobody sees. You didn't meantion anything on rebuilding the front suspension including blasting it, painting it, new parts, new rotors, brake pads, calipers, etc. Nor do I see anything on going through the rearend, New springs, blasting the perches, new brake lines, fuel lines, e-brakes, rebuilding heater box and core, the whole dash is going to have to be pulled and rebuilt, all the wiring redone etc. The motor work you have listed was for your motor. Not too many motors out there for sale that cheap done. What interior parts are going to have to be rebuilt/redone?
I bought my bee in 2003 and it has sat in the garage and not been touched. Here is a parts breakdown. Rebuilt Dana 60 $1000(because my buddy didn't want to have to mess with shipping it to someone else), 440 stroke motor $14k but that was done by DRAM and not your typical engine, Probably $4k in body parts including AMD quarters, full trunk floor, shock cross mount, extensions, wheel wells, AAR 6 pack hood. RMS front suspension at $3.5k, new radiator, core seats front and back, frame connectors. The list goes on and on. I haven't touched the car yet. I have no carpet, door panels, seat covers, headliner, Dash is still yet to be gone through, heater box will need redo, electric wiring will be redone and the list goes on. My point is I am in $28k and haven't touched the car. Now you will be in less for the motor but by what 40% so subtract $6k from my numbers. I hate to say it but a decent job probably does run at least $50k with labor and that is for starters. Heck, I am halfway done with the baracuda and at $22k and I don't even have the motor and my labor is -0-.
67 Barracuda FB
69 Superbee
"Southern Maryland: If you want a good looking woman, you had better bring her with you"
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