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Damaged Engine ? oil pump bronze gear etc
#1080449
09/22/11 04:26 PM
09/22/11 04:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,243
Canada
Kam*Kuda
OP
master
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OP
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Posts: 4,243
Canada
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I have just got the car running over the last couple weeks so there isn't a lot of time with the car.
The oil pressure was fine until about a day or 2.
The oil pressure is below 10 at idle and 35-40 at 4000 rpm.
(oil pressure guage is comp electrical guage)
Never had any experience chasingthis kind of problem and would love some advice
It has an external oil single line, deep pan.
The engine is a Mopar 500 inch crate engine I bought used. The engine is about 5-6 years old, Eddy heads Small hydralic roller cam.
I was thinking of just pulling the pan and seeing if there is any crap at the pickup? (easy to do with the modified oil k-frame)
(oil changed recently, had some dye in it to find some oil leaks)
What should I look for in the oil pump when I remove that?
Anything I should check. It is noisy for a hydralic cam.
Last edited by Kam*Kuda; 09/30/11 09:45 PM.
1970 Barracuda Convertible
1968 Satellite Street Strip car
1654.5 Mustang
1955 Land Rover
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: mac56]
#1080455
09/22/11 05:40 PM
09/22/11 05:40 PM
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 279
Mid Missouri
ETASPEN
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 279
Mid Missouri
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Quote:
I know it sounds too simple but I have had the screw that hold the relief spring in the pump back out. 
Buddy had one come all the way out during a pass...I don't have to tell you the rest of the story. 
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: mac56]
#1080456
09/22/11 05:48 PM
09/22/11 05:48 PM
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Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 29
Washington State
lorenr
member
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member
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 29
Washington State
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I've seen this with full grove engine bearings. Excessive oil clearance on the rod and main bearings as well as the lifter bores will also do it. Roller lifters can also expose oil grooves to the rockers. Light weight engine oils sometimes reduce pressure, but also increase volume. I often see synthetics that I swear won't develop much oil pressure. Volume is better than pressure. New cars don't have oil pressure gauges because if the buyer knew what the oil pressure really was with 20 weight synthetic they would demand a new motor. 30 to 40 pounds is fine. 10 pounds at idle is low, but also fine. However check it with a known mechanical gauge to be sure. 
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1080458
09/22/11 06:04 PM
09/22/11 06:04 PM
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
mshred
master
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master
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,415
Toronto
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Quote:
Number one thing... check it with a mech gauge
after having the opposite issues of you, this is the first thing I would do...don't go crazy pulling your pan and such if its just a gauge issue
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: HPMike]
#1080460
09/22/11 09:42 PM
09/22/11 09:42 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,243
Canada
Kam*Kuda
OP
master
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OP
master
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Posts: 4,243
Canada
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Crane gold rockers and I and crane hydralic roller lifters Thanks Bob I will come down to borrow it 
1970 Barracuda Convertible
1968 Satellite Street Strip car
1654.5 Mustang
1955 Land Rover
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1080463
09/23/11 01:05 AM
09/23/11 01:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,243
Canada
Kam*Kuda
OP
master
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OP
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Posts: 4,243
Canada
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I found a mechanical oil pressure guage at the house and installed it but it was too late to start the car
If the pressure is the same I will
1. Check the pressure relief in the pump
2. Change the oil and filter (It was a fram filter and synthetic oil) I will check with our Napa
3. Check for any fuel in the oil (it is an EFI engine with 83 lb injectors wheer 36 lb would probably do, but I will be procharging it and need those injectors in the future)
Anything else?
Thanks
1970 Barracuda Convertible
1968 Satellite Street Strip car
1654.5 Mustang
1955 Land Rover
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: Kam*Kuda]
#1080465
09/23/11 07:16 PM
09/23/11 07:16 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,243
Canada
Kam*Kuda
OP
master
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OP
master
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Posts: 4,243
Canada
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Well I hope there is an easy answer but here is what I have done. Checked with a mechanical gauge, still 10 lbs at idle. I removed the plug and spring for the pressure relief (Milodon Single line - new) to static pickup I could not see the valve . I could not feel it with my little finger. I changed the oil to Brad Penn 20W50 and a Napa Gold filter. I started it and now have 0 (zero) oil pressure.  Note The line from the oil pump to the pan is very short (only a few inches)
Last edited by Kam*Kuda; 09/23/11 07:17 PM.
1970 Barracuda Convertible
1968 Satellite Street Strip car
1654.5 Mustang
1955 Land Rover
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: Kam*Kuda]
#1080466
09/23/11 07:20 PM
09/23/11 07:20 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,243
Canada
Kam*Kuda
OP
master
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OP
master
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,243
Canada
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To get at the oil pump will be a pain so it there is anything I can do before removing the pump... would love to hear it
Engine Plate
Mid Plate and transshield,
Engine lower one inch and back 1 inch
Hard to raise the engine
1970 Barracuda Convertible
1968 Satellite Street Strip car
1654.5 Mustang
1955 Land Rover
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: Kam*Kuda]
#1080468
09/23/11 08:15 PM
09/23/11 08:15 PM
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,214
Bend,OR USA
Cab_Burge
I Win
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I Win
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 43,214
Bend,OR USA
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Quote:
Well I hope there is an easy answer but here is what I have done.
Checked with a mechanical gauge, still 10 lbs at idle.
I removed the plug and spring for the pressure relief (Milodon Single line - new) to static pickup
I could not see the valve . I could not feel it with my little finger.
I changed the oil to Brad Penn 20W50 and a Napa Gold filter.
I started it and now have 0 (zero) oil pressure.
Note The line from the oil pump to the pan is very short (only a few inches)
Two things, the oil pump must have a bypass spring and check valve in it to work   You can add shims between the spring and the cup that the spring sits in to up the pressure , be careful though, not to much  It is NOT UNCOMMON for the Milidon external oiling systems to loose the prime when you open the system, IE remove the check valve plug or oil lines, even changing the oil and filter can cause the loss of prime some times   Let us know what you find, like Raff has suggested try priming it before starting it again
Mr.Cab Racing and winning with Mopars since 1964. (Old F--t, Huh)
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: Cab_Burge]
#1080469
09/25/11 01:41 AM
09/25/11 01:41 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,243
Canada
Kam*Kuda
OP
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OP
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Posts: 4,243
Canada
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So I pulled the distributer and tried to prime the pump with the drill. No oil pressure. Note what the bronze gear looked like. 
Last edited by Kam*Kuda; 09/25/11 02:02 AM.
1970 Barracuda Convertible
1968 Satellite Street Strip car
1654.5 Mustang
1955 Land Rover
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: Kam*Kuda]
#1080471
09/25/11 01:45 AM
09/25/11 01:45 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,243
Canada
Kam*Kuda
OP
master
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OP
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Posts: 4,243
Canada
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so I drained the new oil and pulled the oil pump It is a new muscle motors unit. Not a milidon (I forgot that I got this one recently, It was internal before) The valve slides in and out for the first half easily but gets jammed going all the way in. It needs to be forced to open and close completely. It got be a bit of casting that the valve is getting stuck on Not the wear on the housing and the pump I am not sure if the pump could not turn of if it wa sthe valve of what series on events transpired. 
1970 Barracuda Convertible
1968 Satellite Street Strip car
1654.5 Mustang
1955 Land Rover
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: Kam*Kuda]
#1080472
09/25/11 02:06 AM
09/25/11 02:06 AM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Well you can try reaming the by pass hole to free it up... also get a new intermediate shaft(which you already know)... how long was that shaft in there... I cant see the wear on the pump and housing very well but how deep is it in the housing... I would believe your issue is the by pass not seating
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: Kam*Kuda]
#1080473
09/25/11 03:26 AM
09/25/11 03:26 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
Chris'sBarracuda
master
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master
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,667
Arizona
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Quote:
so I drained the new oil and pulled the oil pump
It is a new muscle motors unit. Not a milodon (I forgot that I got this one recently, It was internal before)
The valve slides in and out for the first half easily but gets jammed going all the way in. It needs to be forced to open and close completely.
It got be a bit of casting that the valve is getting stuck on
Not the wear on the housing and the pump I am not sure if the pump could not turn of if it wa sthe valve of what series on events transpired.
You know those oil pump cover bolts only torque to 25-30#..
They could be over torqued and binding the shaft..
You should be able to turn the pump when torqued, with your fingers using a priming shaft.
Also, put a tiny bit of white grease in the pump when re-assembling.
It will help prime the system.
Chris.. 
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: Chris'sBarracuda]
#1080474
09/25/11 09:29 AM
09/25/11 09:29 AM
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Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,181
PA.
pittsburghracer
"Little"John
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"Little"John
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 20,181
PA.
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After seeing that now is the time to pull the engine, fix all your issues, clean all the parts, mic and measure, do all the needed machine work, clean all the parts again, and install new rings, bearings, pump, oil pump drive and all other new parts that will be needed.
1970 Duster
Edelbrock headed 408
5.984@112.52
422 Indy headed small block
5.982@112.56 mph
9.42@138.27
Livin and lovin life one day at a time
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: pittsburghracer]
#1080475
09/25/11 12:28 PM
09/25/11 12:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,243
Canada
Kam*Kuda
OP
master
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,243
Canada
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Mike. I bought the engine used. I don't know how many miles are on it. I bought it to build for the procharger
There isn't very much where on the housing. Any suggestions on it,
I agree that the housing seemed torqued down to far. It was tight taking it off
Not sure what to do on the rebuilt. I need to decide to pull apart and clean it up, put together or built with lower compression for the procharger
1970 Barracuda Convertible
1968 Satellite Street Strip car
1654.5 Mustang
1955 Land Rover
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: Kam*Kuda]
#1080476
09/25/11 02:22 PM
09/25/11 02:22 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Mike. I bought the engine used. I don't know how many miles are on it. I bought it to build for the procharger
There isn't very much where on the housing. Any suggestions on it,
I agree that the housing seemed torqued down to far. It was tight taking it off
Not sure what to do on the rebuilt. I need to decide to pull apart and clean it up, put together or built with lower compression for the procharger
You could mill that flat again or if you dont have
a mill use sand paper on a flat surface like a surface
plate of a piece of glass
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: emarine01]
#1080478
09/25/11 10:52 PM
09/25/11 10:52 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,286
Hamilton,Ont
72chrgrally
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,286
Hamilton,Ont
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Sorry to hear about your woes Rob! If I can help let me know.
Steve
Photobucket sucks
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: 72chrgrally]
#1080479
09/27/11 11:05 AM
09/27/11 11:05 AM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,243
Canada
Kam*Kuda
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,243
Canada
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It appears that the distributer was not adjusted properly and also put pressure on the oil pump. There are brass metal fragments in the oil pump rotor so... It looks like the engine is coming out.  4 years to get it together and 2 short drives LOL. (I will consider it as a total car mockup) I guess I will be building the procharger engine earlier than expected.  Time to call Dwayne for some cylinder head work too.
1970 Barracuda Convertible
1968 Satellite Street Strip car
1654.5 Mustang
1955 Land Rover
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: Kam*Kuda]
#1080480
09/27/11 02:34 PM
09/27/11 02:34 PM
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,207
New York
polyspheric
master
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master
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,207
New York
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I know this is small comfort, but it's better to find it now, rather than by driving over the crank.
Boffin Emeritus
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: Kam*Kuda]
#1080481
09/27/11 03:25 PM
09/27/11 03:25 PM
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
RemCharger
master
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master
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 2,825
Sk. Canada
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Quote:
It appears that the distributer was not adjusted properly and also put pressure on the oil pump.
The distributor shouldnot be able to push on the oil pump. thats what the dist shaft bushing is for.
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: mac56]
#1080483
09/28/11 11:43 PM
09/28/11 11:43 PM
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
rowin4
master
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master
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,257
gulfport, ms, west mi
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Quote:
I know it sounds too simple but I have had the screw that hold the relief spring in the pump back out.
That happend to me , relief plug unscrewed dropped oil pressure. Pulled the pan, bearings, couldn't find anything. Then the boy's on Moparts told me where to look. Simple fix, used some lock tight to make sure it didn't happen again. 
it's ok to butt heads, just don't do it with a butthead
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: Kam*Kuda]
#1080484
09/28/11 11:46 PM
09/28/11 11:46 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Thats what the builder said, but the prior owner used an MSD with an adjustable collar and it may not have been set right. Too deep
I doubt it... the dist shaft with a collar still
would be pushing on the intermediate shaft and the
bushing below it
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: KB RACING ENG]
#1080488
09/30/11 03:26 PM
09/30/11 03:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,243
Canada
Kam*Kuda
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,243
Canada
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Switched the timing cover and the guy had to make a new button.
He indicated that something may be wrong as he had to take a lot out to fit. This could be an issue
Last edited by Kam*Kuda; 09/30/11 08:40 PM.
1970 Barracuda Convertible
1968 Satellite Street Strip car
1654.5 Mustang
1955 Land Rover
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: KB RACING ENG]
#1080489
09/30/11 03:31 PM
09/30/11 03:31 PM
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
MR_P_BODY
Master
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Master
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 52,972
Romeo MI
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Quote:
Kam, Just a thought. If you haven't already done this,you might check the OAL of the intermediate shaft as some of the Milodon set-ups use a longer than stock shaft. You said your older set-up was a Milodon. I don't know what length the Muscle Motors unit uses. Our KB cast and billet pumps all use the stock length shafts. If you use the longer shaft with our pumps it bottoms out and will not seat on the distributor bushing. From the photos it looks like there was a lot of pressure forcing the rotors into the cover and the bronze gear....not fully engaged on the cam because the shaft was not seated on the bushing? Then again I could be totally off the mark but thought I would throw it in as something to look at.
I think Ken might be right with the length of the
intermediate shaft... it doesnt look like the bronze
gear was wearing in the center where it would normally
wear and it doesnt look like the top of the gear has
the same wear like its setting up high
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: MR_P_BODY]
#1080490
09/30/11 08:45 PM
09/30/11 08:45 PM
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,243
Canada
Kam*Kuda
OP
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,243
Canada
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Also the bottom of the bronze gear was worn from the bushing in the block. It was a fair amount of wear!
I will try to get a pic
I pulled a rod cap. What do you think?
1970 Barracuda Convertible
1968 Satellite Street Strip car
1654.5 Mustang
1955 Land Rover
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: Kam*Kuda]
#1080492
10/01/11 01:01 AM
10/01/11 01:01 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 740
WA
JD Dart
super stock
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super stock
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 740
WA
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I hope I'm not stating the obvious but it looks like the bearing is hitting the chamfer on the crankshaft Did you make sure you put to put the upper shell in the rod and lower in the cap.
best so far 8.53 @ 158.59 MPH 60'1.240
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Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first???
[Re: JD Dart]
#1080494
10/01/11 08:11 AM
10/01/11 08:11 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
firefighter3931
top fuel
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top fuel
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 1,646
Ontario,Canada
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Quote:
I hope I'm not stating the obvious but it looks like the bearing is hitting the chamfer on the crankshaft Did you make sure you put to put the upper shell in the rod and lower in the cap.
Rob (KamKuda) did not assemble the motor ; Blame that boo boo on Mopar Performance. 
The motor was purchased used and came out of a street car. 
with the chamfer comments....surprised to see this in an MP crate shortblock 
Ron
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Sure missed ya' at Norwalk! Had a GREAT time,as usual!...and Doc had a GREAT run going on Saturday night,which I'm sure you've heard already! Good Luck..and let us know what you find! 
