Moparts

Damaged Engine ? oil pump bronze gear etc

Posted By: Kam*Kuda

Damaged Engine ? oil pump bronze gear etc - 09/22/11 08:26 PM

I have just got the car running over the last couple weeks so there isn't a lot of time with the car.

The oil pressure was fine until about a day or 2.
The oil pressure is below 10 at idle and 35-40 at 4000 rpm.
(oil pressure guage is comp electrical guage)

Never had any experience chasingthis kind of problem and would love some advice

It has an external oil single line, deep pan.

The engine is a Mopar 500 inch crate engine I bought used. The engine is about 5-6 years old, Eddy heads Small hydralic roller cam.

I was thinking of just pulling the pan and seeing if there is any crap at the pickup? (easy to do with the modified oil k-frame)

(oil changed recently, had some dye in it to find some oil leaks)

What should I look for in the oil pump when I remove that?

Anything I should check. It is noisy for a hydralic cam.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/22/11 08:29 PM

Number one thing... check it with a mech gauge
Posted By: mopartuner

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/22/11 08:44 PM

Quote:

Number one thing... check it with a mech gauge


I have one here Rob
Posted By: lewtot184

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/22/11 08:53 PM

not much in the pump to screw up. its easy to take off and look at. maybe try a different filter? could have a crack in the pick-up and sucking some air.
Posted By: HPMike

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/22/11 08:57 PM

are the lifter bores bushed? Too much lifter bore clearance is one culprit. Many original blocks have bores that are worn out and some are even oversize from the factory and had oversize lifters to "fix" it. What type of rocker gear is on it?

MB
Posted By: mac56

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/22/11 09:23 PM

I know it sounds too simple but I have had the screw that hold the relief spring in the pump back out.
Posted By: ETASPEN

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/22/11 09:40 PM

Quote:

I know it sounds too simple but I have had the screw that hold the relief spring in the pump back out.



Buddy had one come all the way out during a pass...I don't have to tell you the rest of the story.
Posted By: lorenr

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/22/11 09:48 PM

I've seen this with full grove engine bearings. Excessive oil clearance on the rod and main bearings as well as the lifter bores will also do it.

Roller lifters can also expose oil grooves to the rockers.

Light weight engine oils sometimes reduce pressure, but also increase volume. I often see synthetics that I swear won't develop much oil pressure. Volume is better than pressure. New cars don't have oil pressure gauges because if the buyer knew what the oil pressure really was with 20 weight synthetic they would demand a new motor.

30 to 40 pounds is fine. 10 pounds at idle is low, but also fine. However check it with a known mechanical gauge to be sure.

Posted By: sshemi

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/22/11 09:54 PM

Dont make the same mistake as i did with my Hemi a few years back (some of you know) Re check with atleast TWO (2) other gauges.

second check the pickup
Posted By: mshred

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/22/11 10:04 PM

Quote:

Number one thing... check it with a mech gauge




after having the opposite issues of you, this is the first thing I would do...don't go crazy pulling your pan and such if its just a gauge issue
Posted By: Twostick

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/22/11 11:13 PM

Does it have a Fram filter on it? If the gauge checks out change the filter to a Wix (napa gold) and if the pressure is still low cut the old filter to check for shrapnel. Check the relief valve as was posted above. The spring could be broke or the valve stuck in its bore. Easy to check.

Kevin
Posted By: Kam*Kuda

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/23/11 01:42 AM

Crane gold rockers and I and crane hydralic roller lifters

Thanks Bob I will come down to borrow it
Posted By: quick77rt

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/23/11 01:47 AM

Any raw gas in your oil??
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/23/11 02:07 AM

it sounds like the bypass valve in the oil pump is stuck partially open especailly when it was good one day and bad the next time you used it Let us know what you find
Posted By: Kam*Kuda

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/23/11 05:05 AM

I found a mechanical oil pressure guage at the house and installed it but it was too late to start the car

If the pressure is the same I will
1. Check the pressure relief in the pump
2. Change the oil and filter (It was a fram filter and synthetic oil) I will check with our Napa
3. Check for any fuel in the oil (it is an EFI engine with 83 lb injectors wheer 36 lb would probably do, but I will be procharging it and need those injectors in the future)

Anything else?

Thanks
Posted By: Labratt

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/23/11 02:37 PM

Rob..hope you get your oil pressure problem solved..with an EASY FIX! Sure missed ya' at Norwalk! Had a GREAT time,as usual!...and Doc had a GREAT run going on Saturday night,which I'm sure you've heard already! Good Luck..and let us know what you find!
Posted By: Kam*Kuda

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/23/11 11:16 PM

Well I hope there is an easy answer but here is what I have done.
Checked with a mechanical gauge, still 10 lbs at idle.

I removed the plug and spring for the pressure relief (Milodon Single line - new) to static pickup
I could not see the valve . I could not feel it with my little finger.

I changed the oil to Brad Penn 20W50 and a Napa Gold filter.

I started it and now have 0 (zero) oil pressure.

Note The line from the oil pump to the pan is very short (only a few inches)

Attached picture 6839203-oil-pump.jpg
Posted By: Kam*Kuda

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/23/11 11:20 PM

To get at the oil pump will be a pain so it there is anything I can do before removing the pump... would love to hear it

Engine Plate
Mid Plate and transshield,
Engine lower one inch and back 1 inch
Hard to raise the engine

Attached picture 6839210-engine-sm.jpg
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/23/11 11:21 PM

Pull the dist and intermediate shaft and use a priming rod
and see what happens(no more start up's till you figure it out
Posted By: Cab_Burge

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/24/11 12:15 AM

Quote:

Well I hope there is an easy answer but here is what I have done.
Checked with a mechanical gauge, still 10 lbs at idle.

I removed the plug and spring for the pressure relief (Milodon Single line - new) to static pickup
I could not see the valve . I could not feel it with my little finger.

I changed the oil to Brad Penn 20W50 and a Napa Gold filter.

I started it and now have 0 (zero) oil pressure.

Note The line from the oil pump to the pan is very short (only a few inches)

Two things, the oil pump must have a bypass spring and check valve in it to work You can add shims between the spring and the cup that the spring sits in to up the pressure , be careful though, not to much It is NOT UNCOMMON for the Milidon external oiling systems to loose the prime when you open the system, IE remove the check valve plug or oil lines, even changing the oil and filter can cause the loss of prime some times Let us know what you find, like Raff has suggested try priming it before starting it again
Posted By: Kam*Kuda

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/25/11 05:41 AM

So I pulled the distributer and tried to prime the pump with the drill. No oil pressure.
Note what the bronze gear looked like.

Attached picture 6841144-bronze-gear1.jpg
Posted By: Kam*Kuda

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/25/11 05:42 AM

pic 2

Attached picture 6841147-bronze-gear2.jpg
Posted By: Kam*Kuda

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/25/11 05:45 AM

so I drained the new oil and pulled the oil pump

It is a new muscle motors unit. Not a milidon (I forgot that I got this one recently, It was internal before)

The valve slides in and out for the first half easily but gets jammed going all the way in. It needs to be forced to open and close completely.
It got be a bit of casting that the valve is getting stuck on

Not the wear on the housing and the pump I am not sure if the pump could not turn of if it wa sthe valve of what series on events transpired.


Attached picture 6841148-oilpumpwear.jpg
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/25/11 06:06 AM

Well you can try reaming the by pass hole to free it
up... also get a new intermediate shaft(which you already
know)... how long was that shaft in there... I cant see
the wear on the pump and housing very well but how deep
is it in the housing... I would believe your issue
is the by pass not seating

Posted By: Chris'sBarracuda

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/25/11 07:26 AM

Quote:

so I drained the new oil and pulled the oil pump

It is a new muscle motors unit. Not a milodon (I forgot that I got this one recently, It was internal before)

The valve slides in and out for the first half easily but gets jammed going all the way in. It needs to be forced to open and close completely.
It got be a bit of casting that the valve is getting stuck on

Not the wear on the housing and the pump I am not sure if the pump could not turn of if it wa sthe valve of what series on events transpired.




You know those oil pump cover bolts only torque to 25-30#..

They could be over torqued and binding the shaft..
You should be able to turn the pump when torqued, with your fingers using a priming shaft.

Also, put a tiny bit of white grease in the pump when re-assembling.
It will help prime the system.


Chris..
Posted By: pittsburghracer

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/25/11 01:29 PM

After seeing that now is the time to pull the engine, fix all your issues, clean all the parts, mic and measure, do all the needed machine work, clean all the parts again, and install new rings, bearings, pump, oil pump drive and all other new parts that will be needed.
Posted By: Kam*Kuda

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/25/11 04:28 PM

Mike. I bought the engine used. I don't know how many miles are on it. I bought it to build for the procharger
There isn't very much where on the housing. Any suggestions on it,

I agree that the housing seemed torqued down to far. It was tight taking it off

Not sure what to do on the rebuilt. I need to decide to pull apart and clean it up, put together or built with lower compression for the procharger
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/25/11 06:22 PM

Quote:

Mike. I bought the engine used. I don't know how many miles are on it. I bought it to build for the procharger
There isn't very much where on the housing. Any suggestions on it,

I agree that the housing seemed torqued down to far. It was tight taking it off

Not sure what to do on the rebuilt. I need to decide to pull apart and clean it up, put together or built with lower compression for the procharger



You could mill that flat again or if you dont have
a mill use sand paper on a flat surface like a surface
plate of a piece of glass
Posted By: emarine01

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/25/11 06:57 PM

I would try another pump then try to prime with a drill, The ware pattern showes that air could be transfering from the intake to exhaust port of the pump
Posted By: 72chrgrally

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/26/11 02:52 AM

Sorry to hear about your woes Rob! If I can help let me know.
Steve
Posted By: Kam*Kuda

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/27/11 03:05 PM

It appears that the distributer was not adjusted properly and also put pressure on the oil pump.

There are brass metal fragments in the oil pump rotor so...

It looks like the engine is coming out.

4 years to get it together and 2 short drives LOL. (I will consider it as a total car mockup)

I guess I will be building the procharger engine earlier than expected.

Time to call Dwayne for some cylinder head work too.
Posted By: polyspheric

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/27/11 06:34 PM

I know this is small comfort, but it's better to find it now, rather than by driving over the crank.
Posted By: RemCharger

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/27/11 07:25 PM

Quote:

It appears that the distributer was not adjusted properly and also put pressure on the oil pump.


The distributor shouldnot be able to push on the oil pump. thats what the dist shaft bushing is for.
Posted By: Kam*Kuda

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/29/11 03:28 AM

Thats what the builder said, but the prior owner used an MSD with an adjustable collar and it may not have been set right. Too deep
Posted By: rowin4

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/29/11 03:43 AM

Quote:

I know it sounds too simple but I have had the screw that hold the relief spring in the pump back out.




That happend to me , relief plug unscrewed dropped oil pressure. Pulled the pan, bearings, couldn't find anything. Then the boy's on Moparts told me where to look. Simple fix, used some lock tight to make sure it didn't happen again.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/29/11 03:46 AM

Quote:

Thats what the builder said, but the prior owner used an MSD with an adjustable collar and it may not have been set right. Too deep



I doubt it... the dist shaft with a collar still
would be pushing on the intermediate shaft and the
bushing below it
Posted By: KB RACING ENG

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/29/11 06:23 AM

Kam, Just a thought. If you haven't already done this,you might check the OAL of the intermediate shaft as some of the Milodon set-ups use a longer than stock shaft. You said your older set-up was a Milodon. I don't know what length the Muscle Motors unit uses. Our KB cast and billet pumps all use the stock length shafts. If you use the longer shaft with our pumps it bottoms out and will not seat on the distributor bushing. From the photos it looks like there was a lot of pressure forcing the rotors into the cover and the bronze gear....not fully engaged on the cam because the shaft was not seated on the bushing? Then again I could be totally off the mark but thought I would throw it in as something to look at.
Posted By: Kam*Kuda

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/30/11 05:14 PM

Could this issue for the gear be caused by a inproperly sized cam button?
https://board.moparts.org/ubbthreads/uplo...ronze-gear1.jpg
Posted By: KB RACING ENG

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/30/11 07:01 PM

As long as you had the proper end play on the camshaft when the engine was built I don't see how this could come into play. The block and cam gear/thrust washer keep the cam from being pushed too far to the rear and the thrust button would keep the cam from walking towards the front unless you have a different set-up.
Posted By: Kam*Kuda

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/30/11 07:26 PM

Switched the timing cover and the guy had to make a new button.

He indicated that something may be wrong as he had to take a lot out to fit. This could be an issue
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 09/30/11 07:31 PM

Quote:

Kam, Just a thought. If you haven't already done this,you might check the OAL of the intermediate shaft as some of the Milodon set-ups use a longer than stock shaft. You said your older set-up was a Milodon. I don't know what length the Muscle Motors unit uses. Our KB cast and billet pumps all use the stock length shafts. If you use the longer shaft with our pumps it bottoms out and will not seat on the distributor bushing. From the photos it looks like there was a lot of pressure forcing the rotors into the cover and the bronze gear....not fully engaged on the cam because the shaft was not seated on the bushing? Then again I could be totally off the mark but thought I would throw it in as something to look at.



I think Ken might be right with the length of the
intermediate shaft... it doesnt look like the bronze
gear was wearing in the center where it would normally
wear and it doesnt look like the top of the gear has
the same wear like its setting up high
Posted By: Kam*Kuda

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 10/01/11 12:45 AM

Also the bottom of the bronze gear was worn from the bushing in the block. It was a fair amount of wear!

I will try to get a pic

I pulled a rod cap. What do you think?

Attached picture 6849738-rodcap.jpg
Posted By: rickraw

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 10/01/11 03:32 AM

that bearing looks like crap
Posted By: JD Dart

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 10/01/11 05:01 AM

I hope I'm not stating the obvious but it looks like the bearing is hitting the chamfer on the crankshaft Did you make sure you put to put the upper shell in the rod and lower in the cap.
Posted By: MR_P_BODY

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 10/01/11 06:04 AM

Quote:

I hope I'm not stating the obvious but it looks like the bearing is hitting the chamfer on the crankshaft Did you make sure you put to put the upper shell in the rod and lower in the cap.



looks like its riding tight on the radius
without a chamfered bearing... plus it looks like it
was getting hot
Posted By: firefighter3931

Re: Low Oil Pressure %^@#!&* What to check first??? - 10/01/11 12:11 PM

Quote:

I hope I'm not stating the obvious but it looks like the bearing is hitting the chamfer on the crankshaft Did you make sure you put to put the upper shell in the rod and lower in the cap.




Rob (KamKuda) did not assemble the motor ; Blame that boo boo on Mopar Performance.

The motor was purchased used and came out of a street car.

with the chamfer comments....surprised to see this in an MP crate shortblock



Ron
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