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Diesel lift pump (long) #1066312 08/31/11 12:58 AM 08/31/11 12:58 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 274 Visalia, CA. P poison_ivy OP enthusiast
poison_ivy OP enthusiast P Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 274 Visalia, CA.	Just bought my first diesel. Found a great deal on an '02 with 41,000 miles. Runs great and looks like new. A friend checked and found out I have low fuel pressure,(6-7). I bought a FASS DDRP to replace the lift pump. Discovered the truck has a retro-fit in tank pump. Can this be removed and the FASS be mounted on the rail? Service rep at the Dodge dealer says the in tank setup can't be removed because it's now tied into the PCM. I located an original fuel level sending unit module to to put back in, in place of the in tank unit. What headaches am I going to encounter in this swap?

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: poison_ivy] #1066313 08/31/11 03:02 AM 08/31/11 03:02 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,001 s. e. pa. C calrobb2000 top fuel
calrobb2000 top fuel C Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,001 s. e. pa.	hi use the new pump , trash the one in tank , buy more mopar parts with money you save from not needing a new injection pump !

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: calrobb2000] #1066314 08/31/11 09:06 AM 08/31/11 09:06 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 541 chatham, Ilinois F fox super street
fox super street F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 541 chatham, Ilinois	Yes, get rid of the sad in-tank pump. It won't work together. I have an 02 also. It has amused me for 10 years now to watch dodge spend $1,000 to almost fix something when all they had to do was buy it aftermarket!!! And, for $500.

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: poison_ivy] #1066315 08/31/11 09:19 AM 08/31/11 09:19 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,043 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,043 U.S.S.A.	Where did you measure that 6-7 psi pre filter or post, not that it matters much because that is still too low even with a clogged filter. Change it out and don't look back.

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: poison_ivy] #1066316 08/31/11 01:07 PM 08/31/11 01:07 PM
Joined: Aug 2008 Posts: 286 Catskill, NY T teflon enthusiast
teflon enthusiast T Joined: Aug 2008 Posts: 286 Catskill, NY	Cummins is more interested in fuel FLOW than fuel pressure. Pump output is measured in mL for a 20 second period.

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: teflon] #1066317 08/31/11 05:37 PM 08/31/11 05:37 PM
Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,920 Calgary, Alberta Canada a12rag master
a12rag master Joined: Apr 2007 Posts: 2,920 Calgary, Alberta Canada	I have an '02, 6spd, 2wd truck with 55k miles on it now . . . did the lift pump earlier this year (about 5k miles ago) . . . have pressure gauge on before I changed the lift pump. It was factory original Carter electric on left rear of engine . . . your in tank lift pump must have been changed out at some point, pretty sure they had the Carter Electric mounted on the block. I went with the FASS stock replacement pump . . . however, I just replaced the injection pump after getting the dreaded dead pedal syndrom and the 0216 code (injection pump timing error) . . . truck is running fine again . . . nothing that $2.5k couldn't fix ! Ha ha ha . . . that was me doing the lift pump myself, and then having a shop do the injection pump. The shop recommends a fuel additive to counteract the ultra low sulphor fuel out there now !!! . . . fyi ! Cheers Mark

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: teflon] #1066318 08/31/11 06:26 PM 08/31/11 06:26 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 541 chatham, Ilinois F fox super street
fox super street F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 541 chatham, Ilinois	I know that. But if you understand flow, the pressure drops then volume does too! They are directly proportional.

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: fox] #1066319 08/31/11 10:27 PM 08/31/11 10:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 274 Visalia, CA. P poison_ivy OP enthusiast
poison_ivy OP enthusiast P Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 274 Visalia, CA.	Spoke with a mechanic at a different dealer today that said they have NEVER had a retro fit pump come back with a failure. I'm just not sure if I'm just worrying too much. This truck runs fine and is all I need. Total combined weight when I'm towing to the track is 14,720. I'm told that's not bad for a diesel. I've gone back and forth with this for a couple of weeks. I know most guys want more hp and torque, but for the most part I'm satisfied with what I have. This is my first diesel, and everyone I talk to says you need to do this and do that. I don't need a monster truck. I just want something reliable and dependable. With that said, am I making too much about this?

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: poison_ivy] #1066320 09/01/11 02:36 AM 09/01/11 02:36 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,043 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,043 U.S.S.A.	Quote: Spoke with a mechanic at a different dealer today that said they have NEVER had a retro fit pump come back with a failure. I'm just not sure if I'm just worrying too much. This truck runs fine and is all I need. Total combined weight when I'm towing to the track is 14,720. I'm told that's not bad for a diesel. I've gone back and forth with this for a couple of weeks. I know most guys want more hp and torque, but for the most part I'm satisfied with what I have. This is my first diesel, and everyone I talk to says you need to do this and do that. I don't need a monster truck. I just want something reliable and dependable. With that said, am I making too much about this? No , that fuel pressure is TOO LOW , do you want to have to replace the injector pump $$$ ??? , then leave it as is ...

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: JohnRR] #1066321 09/01/11 02:43 PM 09/01/11 02:43 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada D DPelletier I Live Here
DPelletier I Live Here D Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada	Quote: Quote: Spoke with a mechanic at a different dealer today that said they have NEVER had a retro fit pump come back with a failure. I'm just not sure if I'm just worrying too much. This truck runs fine and is all I need. Total combined weight when I'm towing to the track is 14,720. I'm told that's not bad for a diesel. I've gone back and forth with this for a couple of weeks. I know most guys want more hp and torque, but for the most part I'm satisfied with what I have. This is my first diesel, and everyone I talk to says you need to do this and do that. I don't need a monster truck. I just want something reliable and dependable. With that said, am I making too much about this? No , that fuel pressure is TOO LOW , do you want to have to replace the injector pump $$$ ??? , then leave it as is ... Don't believe the dealer; if I had a penny for every time I've heard the "we've never encountered that" story, I'd be a rich man. Funny thing is that often the issue (like this one) is well known to be VERY common. Dave 1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 1974 'Cuda 2008 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Ram 3500 Diesel 2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel 2003 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Durango Limited [url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: DPelletier] #1066322 09/01/11 03:09 PM 09/01/11 03:09 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md 3 383man Too Many Posts
383man Too Many Posts 3 Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 27,421 Balt. Md	I can tell you this since I worked for a Dodge dealer for 23 years. Every time I saw a tech replace a low pressure lift pump mech or electric if they did not replace the inj pump it would be towed back in a few days to get the inj pump replaced. The fuel has a return line at the injector pump and the extra fuel would go thru that line along the side of the inj pump back to the tank and that fuel would help cool the inj pump. And every time the lift pump went bad they ended up needed the inj pump either right then or within a week or so. Now after we started putting the low pressure pump in the tank as long as the inj pump was also replaced I did not see them come back. So it definetly helped and worked better with the in tank pump but it is not as good as most after market kits. Ron Last edited by 383man; 09/01/11 03:10 PM.

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: 383man] #1066323 09/01/11 04:21 PM 09/01/11 04:21 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada D DPelletier I Live Here
DPelletier I Live Here D Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada	Quote: I can tell you this since I worked for a Dodge dealer for 23 years. Every time I saw a tech replace a low pressure lift pump mech or electric if they did not replace the inj pump it would be towed back in a few days to get the inj pump replaced. The fuel has a return line at the injector pump and the extra fuel would go thru that line along the side of the inj pump back to the tank and that fuel would help cool the inj pump. And every time the lift pump went bad they ended up needed the inj pump either right then or within a week or so. Now after we started putting the low pressure pump in the tank as long as the inj pump was also replaced I did not see them come back. So it definetly helped and worked better with the in tank pump but it is not as good as most after market kits. Ron Ron, Yep; I can buy into all of that. My comment was on the generic "we've never seen that before" spew when the parts are on national back order because it happens so often! Think, 2nd gen clockspring or AC blender doors! The VP44 is VERY succeptible to damage from low lift pump pressure. In the case of the OP, the pressures he's seeing are still too low and I'd rely on the pressure gauge over the "the updated pump is never a problem" sentiments. It simply is NOT worth the risk. Dave 1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 1974 'Cuda 2008 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Ram 3500 Diesel 2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel 2003 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Durango Limited [url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: DPelletier] #1066324 09/01/11 04:53 PM 09/01/11 04:53 PM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,043 U.S.S.A. JohnRR I Win
JohnRR I Win Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 75,043 U.S.S.A.	Quote: The VP44 is VERY succeptible to damage from low lift pump pressure. ... Dave HOGWASH .... I ran my truck out of fuel more times than I care to admit , I did it so many times I figure out how to prime it without having to crack lines, went thru 3 lift pumps, one died completely and I drove the truck for 3 months with the VP pulling fuel thru a dead lift pump, I lost the voltage signal from the ECM. The original VP died at about 220k miles and that was in my opinion because of the low sulfur fuel ... coupled with the 3rd 14psi pump only pushing 5psi...

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: JohnRR] #1066325 09/01/11 06:15 PM 09/01/11 06:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada D DPelletier I Live Here
DPelletier I Live Here D Joined: Apr 2005 Posts: 15,134 Kelowna, B.C. Canada	Quote: Quote: The VP44 is VERY succeptible to damage from low lift pump pressure. ... Dave HOGWASH .... I ran my truck out of fuel more times than I care to admit , I did it so many times I figure out how to prime it without having to crack lines, went thru 3 lift pumps, one died completely and I drove the truck for 3 months with the VP pulling fuel thru a dead lift pump, I lost the voltage signal from the ECM. The original VP died at about 220k miles and that was in my opinion because of the low sulfur fuel ... coupled with the 3rd 14psi pump only pushing 5psi... Yeah, but you're special! Many of us weren't so lucky. I was soooo happy the day my '01 was traded for a new common rail truck! (in hindsight, the '01 was a great truck too) Dave 1970 Super Bee 440 Six Pack 1974 'Cuda 2008 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Ram 3500 Diesel 2004.5 Ram 2500 Diesel 2003 Ram 3500 Diesel 2006 Durango Limited [url] http://1970superbee.piczo.com [/url]

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: DPelletier] #1066326 09/02/11 06:44 PM 09/02/11 06:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 200 South Coast of Oregon D dweller enthusiast
dweller enthusiast D Joined: Oct 2006 Posts: 200 South Coast of Oregon	The in tank pump on my '02 HO has been working fine for the past 60K miles. Lift pump on the block is stock for these trucks. Mine was replaced on warranty at 90K along with a new IP. I try to keep my tank at least 1/4 full so the pump is partially submerged. IP failures have to do with heat cycles, not so much keeping the board cool.

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: fox] #1066327 09/04/11 02:17 AM 09/04/11 02:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,699 Newport, Mi Evil Spirit master
Evil Spirit master Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,699 Newport, Mi	Quote: I know that. But if you understand flow, the pressure drops then volume does too! They are directly proportional. If you really understand flow you understand that pressure is a measurement of restriction. Thats why pumps are rated X volume @ X pressure, as in 140 gallons @ 7 P.S.I.. Thats the reason Dodge wants to see a certain volume in a certain amount of time. A restriction between the lift pump and the injector pump can show good pressure (at the pump) but still have low volume. I've seen cobbled together fuel systems that showed good pressure, but the small hoses and fittings wouldn't flow any real volume. If the point of the most restriction is between the carb (or injector pump) and where you are reading the pressure, you won't get an accurate read on the amount of fuel avalible, as in good pressure - low volume. Free advice and worth every penny... Factory trained Slinky rewinder.........

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: Evil Spirit] #1066328 09/05/11 03:55 AM 09/05/11 03:55 AM
Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 541 chatham, Ilinois F fox super street
fox super street F Joined: Jan 2003 Posts: 541 chatham, Ilinois	Of course I understand flow. My point really was that Dodge got tired of people finding low pressure at the injection pump, so they thru a curve to avoid replacing so many cheap pumps. (cheap by design) If you have a hydraulic system and change nothing, if the pressure drops so does the voluume. Ddoge simply twisted the talk to the customer that had low pressure and said the pressure wasn't important, it was the flow they were concerned about! But, Bosch states 'pressure to the pump at a certain spec range. They do NOT specify the voluume. either would be acceptable. My poit is dodge tried to sell customers that if the pressure was low or zero, they still only were concerned of flow. Of course we know id pressure is a true zero there will be no flow.

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: fox] #1066329 09/06/11 12:53 AM 09/06/11 12:53 AM
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,699 Newport, Mi Evil Spirit master
Evil Spirit master Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 3,699 Newport, Mi	Dodge knows that an engines fuel requirements are "volume" related and pressure is only a tool to get that volume. An engines fuel requirement is measured in B.S.F.C., or Brake Specific Fuel Consumption, which ballpark is about .5lbs of fuel per HP per hour. The engine could care less if the fuel is delivered at 10 or 10,000PSI; it wants 200LBS of fuel (about 30 gallons) to make 400HP per hour. Asking for a certain volume takes all the guesswork out of the equasion. If the line supplying the injector pump can fill a gallon container in a minute, you have enough fuel to make roughly 780HP, or about 620HP running at the 80% duty factor a lot of fuel systems are set up at. By Dodge asking for a certain volume it takes all the custom or modified fuel system arguements out of the equasion. If a stock and unmodified fuel system doesn't meet that volume spec - that is a Dodge issue. If the retrofit Widget Industries lift pump plumbed in with Home Depot fittings only flows a pint of fuel a minute @ 15PSI - not Dodges problem. Again my point - Pressure is a tool to obtain volume; not an accurate indicator of OBTAINED VOLUME. Free advice and worth every penny... Factory trained Slinky rewinder.........

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: Evil Spirit] #1066330 09/06/11 01:30 AM 09/06/11 01:30 AM
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 13,198 aZLiViN J J_BODY I Live Here
J_BODY I Live Here J Joined: May 2003 Posts: 13,198 aZLiViN	Run the intank pump, it will do just fine.

Re: Diesel lift pump (long) [Re: fox] #1066331 09/06/11 01:46 AM 09/06/11 01:46 AM
Joined: May 2003 Posts: 13,198 aZLiViN J J_BODY I Live Here
J_BODY I Live Here J Joined: May 2003 Posts: 13,198 aZLiViN	Quote: My point really was that Dodge got tired of people finding low pressure at the injection pump, so they thru a curve to avoid replacing so many cheap pumps. (cheap by design) ....actually Chrysler bought the package from Cummins, and it was Chysler that absorbed the expense of replacing all those VP's and lift pumps. It was also on the common rail trucks (03-04) that the "supplied" lift pump was also a failure prone piece. It was chrysler that came up with the in-tank pump that appeared stock in 05, but retrofit kits went all the way back to the 98.5 VP equipped trucks. I do remember hearing the the warranty cost was such that during the Diamler era they were looking hard at replacing the Cummins with a Mercedes based package. That would have most likely been the death of Dodge trucks, but it would have kept costs "in house" too.

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